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All these changes sound kind of crazy and maybe good? I don't know, I guess I'll have to wait until I can look at a book. But it sounds like it will also make it harder to borrow and trade stuff from the other 40k books, right? Like, at the moment, I have been swiping stuff from Only War and Rogue Trader to use in my DH game - that isn't going to be as simple any more, is it? You'll have to run things through some sort of conversion process.
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Jul 25, 2013 14:38
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Some things you can crib- the vehicle rules are just polished up from Only War. There are also maybesome Talent updates that can be ported wholesale, though nothing sprung to mind while skimming. But for the most part, yeah, it's going to require some serious work. Even enemy statblocks (no Orks I can see, for once), despite using the same nine characteristics, don't really work as armour is reduced in 2nd Ed and the death of Unnatural Characteristics mean you end up with stuff like Heralds of Nurgle with over 100 toughness.
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Jul 25, 2013 16:19
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How about weapons? Is the list pretty comprehensive? If not, is it going to be a tremendous headache to use stuff from other books? I like to borrow things from RT for unique item drops. Even just stuff like the Iron Talon shotgun
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Jul 25, 2013 16:29
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I'm still reading through it, but the biggest difference so far is the change to rate of fire. It's now presented as a single number, a multiplier for the number of action points you need to spend to fire it. The list of weapons is 2 full pages, which covers just the basic weapons, none of the fancy variant guns. There are customization rules like in OW though.
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Jul 25, 2013 16:38
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There's the usual suspects (bolt weapons including storm, autocannon, power maul and its lesser non-maul cousins, inferno pistol, plasma gun, force weapons, a shotgun, bolas, needle weapons, grenades, etc). I can't find the multimelta or lascannon, but everything else is there. Weapon modification and customisation have been rolled into one, and you can only have one mod per weapon. Importing... it'll be difficult. The highest penetration on a weapon that I can find is 4, and while there's something funky going on with numbers it suggests they really want to bring down the penetration value of weapons in general from the old game lines. Rate of Fire is now 'for each action point you spend, this is how many attacks you get'. Pistol isn't a classification anymore, qualities have the same names but are almost all revamped, and so on. It's a new system, for better and for worse.
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Jul 25, 2013 16:43
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It'll probably just be easier to use the new system and extrapolate unique or variant weapons, then, rather than trying to work out conversion methods for most things. Not a huge deal, but I have enjoyed the convenience of grabbing the other books and just swiping stuff.
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Jul 25, 2013 16:49
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Oh my, a new system? But I've hardly dug into the current setup. What are they trying to improve from the original system? Going to try Rogue Trader using Roll20.net this weekend, hope that goes well so I can make the most out of these books before they get a 2.0.
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Jul 25, 2013 16:54
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Well you don't need to worry about Rogue Trader and stuff. Only Dark Heresy is getting a change. 
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Jul 25, 2013 16:56
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Well, Rogue Trader probably isn't far behind. It's not like they'd have to do much to change the rest of their systems. What I mean is that with V2.0 of Dark Heresy, we'll be seeing Rogue Trader 2.0 and the rest in due course. Just hoping for later rather than sooner because I've barely used the books I bought  Curious as to what is actually prompting the change, is Dark Heresy pretty stale in comparison to Only War?
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Jul 25, 2013 17:01
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Bavius posted:Curious as to what is actually prompting the change, is Dark Heresy pretty stale in comparison to Only War? Yes, very much so- three game lines of refinement between the two almost make them different games. Rogue Trader still has serious problems, but it still has some of the most egregious issues with Dark Heresy fixed (it has a tolerable psyker system for a start). And it hasn't been so long since Rogue Trader got a pseudo-update in Black Crusade with the Pirate Prince class. For what it is worth, FFG have stated outright that they have no plans to update the other lines, and each of them has another book coming; the last Dark Heresy book came out a year ago. I don't think you've got anything to worry about unless there's a long silence after Faith and Coin.
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Jul 25, 2013 17:11
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Bavius posted:Well, Rogue Trader probably isn't far behind. It's not like they'd have to do much to change the rest of their systems. What I mean is that with V2.0 of Dark Heresy, we'll be seeing Rogue Trader 2.0 and the rest in due course. Just hoping for later rather than sooner because I've barely used the books I bought
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Jul 25, 2013 17:39
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Something I already noticed is, for some melee weapons, your Rate of Attack is based on your AB-X. What happens if your AB is exactly X? Like, if I'm using an AB-3 Chainsword and I have a 3 AB, how fast can I stab mans? I admit I'm also pretty worried about the death of unnaturals. They'd finally gotten the drat things working properly in BC and OW and now they throw them out and make some enemies just have absurdly high stats that can't fail checks. What. Similarly, I'm worried by the fact that over your 10 rank career it looks like you can buy +50 total in a stat. When they went over from WHFRP2E with Dark Heresy, one of the things they did was try to move away from people hitting 70s and 80s in stats at high levels, and with some good reason. That aside, the combat changes and new psy system look like fun and I really like the new character creation. Plus, this is just the first release of a beta book for wider playtesting, so I'm sure some of this is going to be refined over time. The Action Point system is really just an extrapolation of the old 'you get 2 Half Actions or 1 Full' without drawing on older D&D/WHFRP2E terms and with a bit more granularity, since you have 4, which gives you more flexibility in moving and looks like it'll be fun to run. The Background/Role/Homeworld thing looks like it can build some fun characters, and I like the new way of doing Good/Bad stats, where you roll 3d10 and take best 2 for Good and 3d10 and take worst two for Bad. I wish a DH update had been more backwards compatible, but we'll see how the new system works out once it's been used in practice and tweaked a bit. That said, all Specialties (necessary to use Lore talents) and Weapon Profs being like 400 EXP each is kind of bullshit, especially as most characters only start with a single Proficiency or two, if they're lucky.
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Jul 25, 2013 17:43
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Yeah. FFG's new Star Wars game was in beta for quite some time and came out pretty well on the other side.
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Jul 25, 2013 17:59
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How do these rules look in terms of trying to teach them to totally new players, by the by?
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Jul 25, 2013 18:52
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Still pretty complicated, sadly. But I think with a bit of effort and if you read the rules carefully yourself and prepare ahead of time you shouldn't have too much trouble explaining things. The rules in the WH40KRP games have always been pretty easy, just the rulebooks are usually a bit badly organized and it takes some getting used to. Also, yes, the new character creation system is a lot of fun. I mean, I was just mucking about with friends and pretty much managed to create an edgy Administratum Adept turned future Crime Lord and knife-fighter. You can do that now. Adept-Desperadoes, Warrior-Psykers, Arbite-Assassins, and Outcast-Priests and such all sound like fun. There's a lot more room to break the mold a bit and go with a weird path to service in the Inquisition and that fits Acolytes very well. Night10194 fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Jul 25, 2013 |
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Jul 25, 2013 19:06
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I like the new "backgrounds and roles being different" idea so much. I always liked to pick my class in DH as much for it's role playing potential as it's game mechanics, and I hated stepping on other players toes. In the next game I can play an Arbites even if there's another arbites because we wont be the same character! Yes! It's a personal gripe of mine when picking a certain in play/role play choice makes you a certain way game play wise. Like how in DnD guys that cast spells are also guys that are wise scholars. Can't be a scholar knight in old school dnd. DH seems to be getting rid of that. Now I can pick who I want my character to be in terms of his role in society and not have that affect his role in the game mechanics of tank/dps/healer ect. I'll try any rule change they have for that chance.
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Jul 25, 2013 23:55
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Actually most wizards and sorcerers use WIS as a dump stat. Paladins, on the other hand, need high WIS to cast their spells. They do, however, suffer a bit from MAD though since they basically need every stat but INT.
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Jul 26, 2013 00:01
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My groups GM just asked a question so basic I can't believe it didn't occur to me: are they keeping money?
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Jul 26, 2013 00:10
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Jack B Nimble posted:My groups GM just asked a question so basic I can't believe it didn't occur to me: are they keeping money? No, money is gone. Replaced with Influence. Dre2Dee2 posted:How do these rules look in terms of trying to teach them to totally new players, by the by? It seems alright for a new player? Though the game does seem to want to include a chunk of off the bat min-maxing but if you have a similarly minded group I don't think your going to have a problem. Same as dark heresy 1e in that regard. AnEndcat posted:Well, I think the personality stuffed can be hashed out by the beta, but Subtlety is more concerning. It's not like FFG don't have a history of leaving rules like that frustratingly vague for the neophyte GM, or systems that look cool on the surface but are a complete pain to actually use (Endeavours, why do you exist). Thats my big concern as well. Theres way too much of the game that requires thing to be thought out and finished but thats never been FFGs strong suit with new system mechanics. I mean take a look at all the cool stuff in Ascension that if it was finished and properly improved then they would add really powerful tools (like spending xp to get contacts). We shall see how it goes I think. Your hopefully right about the personality stuff, theres wonky numbers everywhere obviously and I inherently don't like the idea of system that tells you to roll dice down the line then locks you out of playing specific things if you dont get the right dice in the right place. I think the real issue for character creation is actually the talent trees being hilariously nonsensical at times. kingcom fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Jul 26, 2013 |
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Jul 26, 2013 00:13
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Does the Silencer Modification finally do something beyond reducing the(non-existent)audible range of your gunshots and give people an awareness penalty on said roll(doesn't exist either)? And the Bipid/Tripod? Does it still allow you to brace heavy weapons(which you already could do without a Bipod/Tripod) and basic weapons(does absolutely nothing)?
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Jul 26, 2013 00:48
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Asehujiko posted:Does the Silencer Modification finally do something beyond reducing the(non-existent)audible range of your gunshots and give people an awareness penalty on said roll(doesn't exist either)? There's actually an audible range table by weapon. I'm not joking.
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Jul 26, 2013 01:39
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Clanpot Shake posted:There's actually an audible range table by weapon. I'm not joking. Oh. Great. 
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Jul 26, 2013 01:46
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S.J. posted:Oh. Great.  Its pretty dumb but it's still better than the original dark heresy solution to the problem: Pretend it doesn't exist.
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Jul 26, 2013 01:50
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I'm not sure there needs to be a rule for it outside of rolling awareness if it's far away to see where it might have come from.
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Jul 26, 2013 01:54
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S.J. posted:I'm not sure there needs to be a rule for it outside of rolling awareness if it's far away to see where it might have come from. I want a simple "Gunshot = X m +20 to awareness". That is more than enough. EDIT: Also the adventure at the back of the book is really bad for being the introduction to the game and what your supposed to be doing in it (or even what scale of game its supposed to be). They really just need a clear structured scenario to show you how it works and put all this 'build your own adventure!' stuff in the first scenario book or maybe the GMs guide. kingcom fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Jul 26, 2013 |
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Jul 26, 2013 02:06
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Slightly OT perhaps, but: Any of you long-time members of Dark Reign? I find that they somewhere in the last couple of months changed forums layout, and now I get a ream of notification emails for everything I ever wrote in, in there. The kicker is, the email I'm supposed to contact for getting notifications turned off, doesn't work. How do I stop the grimdark spamocalypse? 
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Jul 26, 2013 13:16
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Ditching the currency for Influence is a total no-brainer, tracking that crap is always a pain in the rear end and the tables/costs in the original DH weren't even coherent, so the GM was basically stuck throwing piles of cash at people to get them what they wanted anyway.
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Jul 26, 2013 14:41
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Ashcans posted:Ditching the currency for Influence is a total no-brainer, tracking that crap is always a pain in the rear end and the tables/costs in the original DH weren't even coherent, so the GM was basically stuck throwing piles of cash at people to get them what they wanted anyway. I disagree with this a lot. I really dont like the influence system because it means 90% of the equipment list become meaningless and it seems to always screw the one guy who never makes his roll. As a GM I was never throwing piles of cash at people and the DH tables weren't perfect but let you create really cool scenarios for equipment. It also gave a niche for the bolters rather than simply being garbage weapons you skip over. The super cheap gun to buy that is extremely costly to fire. Yea the currency thing could be improved, of course but the influence system is more a pain than currency.
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Jul 26, 2013 16:57
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I had a sense of deja-vu, and a quick check reveals that we've had the go-round over income (and apparently, full-auto) two or three times before in this thread. I think we just have different preferences in the RPG mechanics - the abstraction of an Influence/Requisition system is something I really just prefer. The good news is that unplugging it and replacing it with an income system, if that is what you want, is probably fairly simple. You could just reference the old incomes/costs in the previous book, and there's probably very little tweaking to make it work (just like you could readily drop the income system from DH and use one of the other resource options if you wanted).
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Jul 26, 2013 17:13
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Ashcans posted:I had a sense of deja-vu, and a quick check reveals that we've had the go-round over income (and apparently, full-auto) two or three times before in this thread. I think we just have different preferences in the RPG mechanics - the abstraction of an Influence/Requisition system is something I really just prefer. I just really dont like how the Requisition system seems to constantly screw one unlucky person. I ended up just scrapping it altogether in those games and had equipment periodically be put in their armory when they leveled up. Sure we disagree over mechanic but I spoke up when you said it was a no-brainier. EDIT: Its also got a fair bit more messing around than just dropping the numbers in because of the way weapons and combat works. DH1e made a big deal about the transition from low quality common stuff to better weapons to punch through armour reliably, hence why the bolt pistol/bolter were rubbish but got that cool transition role because it was so cheap. Now this issues isn't so prevalent. It seems like way more trouble to figure all that out to get it working the way I would like it. kingcom fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Jul 26, 2013 |
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Jul 26, 2013 17:36
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Is there a list somewhere of 'stealth errata' for the Rogue Trader line? I noticed that a friend's PDF and my physical copy of Into the Storm differ on a few things that aren't in the line errata document, and apart from the Core Book all my stuff is physical.
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Jul 26, 2013 17:41
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Yea, that's fair, it seems like a no-brainer to me because of how bothersome we've found the income system to work with (until we ditched it), but other people have apparently liked it and gotten use of it, so it's not a positive for everyone. For their (your) sake I hope it's easy to unplug, unlike the changes to the weapon profiles and operations which it seems like we'll be stuck with (hopefully for the better).
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Jul 26, 2013 17:42
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So we've played a total of one session and I still have a few questions that I haven't quite figured out the answer to (for Dark Heresy version 1): Does toughness and armor stack? If you are using a combat shotgun, and you have the roll below (at point blank range) for a semi-auto, is this the right # of rolls to roll: Target #: 45 % Roll: 14 (3 degrees of success) So you'd roll for 3 separate hits (location, damage) because of the semi-auto. And then for each of those hits, scatter grants you 3x damage rolls?
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Jul 26, 2013 18:06
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SquadronROE posted:So we've played a total of one session and I still have a few questions that I haven't quite figured out the answer to (for Dark Heresy version 1):
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Jul 26, 2013 18:22
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I think all this 'bolters are garbage' talk is coming from people who haven't had their character shot with a bolter (I have and it was terrible). At the scale old DH1E took place, d10+5 Pen4 Tearing was actually a lot of damage and very likely to kill or cripple human foes in a single shot, not to mention being explosive damage meant they hurt like hell when they did critical damage. Not to mention, cost aside, bolters couldn't explode and kill you. This all becomes a lot less true if you used the IQ Handbook weapons extensively, admittedly, as you could get a d10+5 Pen3 Full Auto weapon and this was back when Full Auto was king, but we never bothered because I've pretty much never run a game in the actual Calixis sector except to set it on fire. Also, for checking locations, there's a chart somewhere in the combat section about where additional shots hit. Generally, the second shot will hit the same area as the first, and then it starts moving up the body. I usually just eyeballed it.
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Jul 26, 2013 18:34
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Note that there is Errata regarding combining Scatter and autofire. I have just copied this from the errata document: quote:When firing a semi- or fullauto burst at point blank range with a weapon that has the Scatter quality, the extra hits for rate of fi re and scatter are worked out separately and both applied. For example, Horatius Kane fi res So in your specific question, the shooter would get their first hit at 45, second hit at 25 (from semiauto). Then, separately, they would get an additional hit at 25 from Scatter, giving him three hits total. You then determine hit locations; you rolled a 14, so you reverse the numbers and reference 41 on table 7-7, Hit Locations. 41 is Body. Now, because you have multiple hits from the attack, you reference table 7-6 to see where the additional two hits went: Body, and Arm. So your target has taken two hits to the Body, and one to the Arm. Now you roll damage for each hit, subtract Toughness and Armor for the location from the respective shots, and apply any excess to wounds.
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Jul 26, 2013 18:35
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Night10194 posted:I think all this 'bolters are garbage' talk is coming from people who haven't had their character shot with a bolter (I have and it was terrible). At the scale old DH1E took place, d10+5 Pen4 Tearing was actually a lot of damage and very likely to kill or cripple human foes in a single shot, not to mention being explosive damage meant they hurt like hell when they did critical damage. Not to mention, cost aside, bolters couldn't explode and kill you. This all becomes a lot less true if you used the IQ Handbook weapons extensively, admittedly, as you could get a d10+5 Pen3 Full Auto weapon and this was back when Full Auto was king, but we never bothered because I've pretty much never run a game in the actual Calixis sector except to set it on fire. Your maybe not understand why people say it sucks. They dont suck for their stats they suck for what they are relative to other guns. In a currency system bolters are fine. In a requisition system they are as equally hard to get as much better guns hence they fall into a category of being useless guns. Thats why they suck.
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Jul 26, 2013 18:43
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Honestly, we always found them completely useless back in the currency system because no-one wanted to bother paying the massive cost of maintaining their ammo when you could get by with something cheaper or save up for something better. I personally agree with getting rid of money mostly because when I ran DH1E it kinda came down to them getting an allowance from their master based on mission success anyhow. They'd save up their Op Bonuses and eventually grab something good for themselves, similar to what Influence simulates. I certainly didn't object to the money system, but in practice, what this simulates is what I always had happening, so it's not like it's a huge change in flavor. Night10194 fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Jul 26, 2013 |
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Jul 26, 2013 19:27
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Some of my players wanted Bolters because bolters are basically a defining element of 40k and they wanted one purely for that reason. Which makes sense, even in-universe. People buy stuff that isn't actually the best all the time, because it is *the thing* that carries a particular mystique. I am sure there would be people in the Imperium who wanted a bolter simply because it was the weapon of the Adeptus Astrates.
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Jul 26, 2013 19:42
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Yeah or, in the case of my group, the gun that Ciaphas Cain used in the latest vid that's TOTALLY a faithful recreation of what happened at the battle of Tau Gulch.
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Jul 26, 2013 19:53
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