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Crew Expendable posted:'Networking' is the polite way of saying 'nepotism/cronyism.' Use any connections your friends/family/friends of family/professors have to get a job. Anything to bypass throwing your resume down the black hole that is the online job application. Surf rock made a great post on this, but I just want to clear this up. Nepotism and networking aren't the same things. The former is a lovely practice where people are usually rewarded for no good reason other than their relations while the latter is usually the result of hard work and good social skills (which are as or more important than 'hard skills' in like 90% of jobs anyways). People like to hire people in their 'networks' because when you hire someone, generally you either want them to either be someone you know and trust or be endorsed by someone you know and trust. One of the big ways to build a group of people who admire your work and are willing to go to bat for you is to intern or volunteer in the field. Not all internships are created equal, and it's hard to know what's a good one and what isn't when you go in because it largely depends on the people you work with (though this goes for any level of job, too), but a good internship will have a group of coworkers who treat you as a colleague rather than a lesser underling, give you a reasonable amount of responsibility, and then are willing to go to bat for you and even put effort into helping you find a job once you impress them.
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Jul 26, 2013 20:26
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:Surf rock made a great post on this, but I just want to clear this up. Nepotism and networking aren't the same things. The former is a lovely practice where people are usually rewarded for no good reason other than their relations while the latter is usually the result of hard work and good social skills (which are as or more important than 'hard skills' in like 90% of jobs anyways). Just to reinforce this point, a lot of people complain about networking and think it's a bunch of BS that shouldn't be necessary to get a decent job. Maybe not, but put yourself in the shoes of the manager with hiring authority. You're probably working 45-50 hours a week, you're juggling a half-dozen projects and responsible for two dozen employees, you have all the stress of normal life and your family and your kids and all this poo poo that everyone has to deal with, and now you need to hire for a couple of entry-level spots on your team. You don't have a lot of time that you can set aside for this, and you don't have a lot of mental energy that you can set aside for this. In reality, how is this hiring process going to work? If you've had an intern who did a good job, made a great impression, and was well-liked by the staff, you're going to save yourself a bunch of time and effort and stick that guy right on your shortlist of candidates for the position. If your assistant manager, with whom you spend more time each week than your own family and on whom you rely on a daily basis to make wise decisions, tells you that he has just the woman in mind for the job, you're going to save yourself a bunch of time and effort and stick her on your shortlist of candidates. Hiring is an expensive, time-consuming, and exhausting process full of risk and difficult decisions. If you eliminate a lot of the time and risk by shortlisting candidates whose good character and solid work ethic you can be assured of ahead of time, of course you're going to do that. Maybe there will be stronger candidates on-paper who apply, but you have no idea what they're really like without conducting several rounds of expensive, time-consuming interviews, and even then, all you've done is see them in interview mode. Some people look at networking as this grimy, degrading thing, but it just makes sense to rely on your personal network for hiring a lot of the time, and that means that networking is never going to stop being an important component of getting a job. surf rock fucked around with this message at 04:39 on Jul 27, 2013 |
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Jul 27, 2013 04:37
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Operating Rod posted:I mean, I get what you're saying and agree with it, but I think actually getting hired at the end of an internship by that same company is so industry-dependant and company-dependant that you have to treat it as a (necessary) learning experience instead of internship = job, and that at the end of the day you are still trying to convince hiring managers of what your skills and potential are. I was a co-op with a company for over a year, took over for a full-time employee when they got promoted, and then trained my replacement co-op when HR stepped in because I had been extended past what corporate policy allowed. They saw interns as a way to get manpower without impacting headcount or paying benefits, and just replaced them as necessary. They stopped major hiring out of the intern pool like six years ago or something (company is in a "headcount reduction" right now). Sorry, I don't think I am understanding what you are trying to say. I was using the term "on-ramp" in a more general sense. That is "on-ramp" into to the corporate world. Some STEM companies (at least the ones I having been applying to) almost seem to look at an internship as other companies might look at a bachelor's degree (e.g. a job working in the mail room "requires" a bachelor's degree). I didn't mean that you should expect to be hired by the same company at the end of your internship. Instead I meant that not having [internship] on your resume can be enough for your application to get rejected just like how not having a degree can get you rejected for the job of paper shredder because people are so desperate for jobs that people are applying for everything and one opening can get hundreds of applications. The internship doesn't even have to been with the same company or even in a super closely related field. I agree with you that it you should treat it as a learning experience and I think it is a good opportunity to network and you should try to get something out of it beyond just putting in the hours so you can list it on your resume. I don't understand why you think it's weird that people get an internship to get a job unless you meant it as people intern at a specific company expecting to get a job at that same company. Most people don't take internships for the solely for the intellectual benefits. Also, it seems like your internship was borderline illegal 
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Jul 28, 2013 02:40
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If a company has the same exact job listed under multiple ID's in their HR software, should I apply to all of them? or should I just assume they'll consider me for either position if I put in for one
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Jul 28, 2013 07:08
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Flavahbeast posted:If a company has the same exact job listed under multiple ID's in their HR software, should I apply to all of them? or should I just assume they'll consider me for either position if I put in for one I've seen them go both ways. State jobs require each job listing have it's own application, and some companies will just have a pool and one application counts for all of them (Hey, 6 jobs, gotta post 'em all). Normally when they do a pool though they'll just post it once (Not counting multiple websites). Unless someone else says otherwise I'd consider an application to each.
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Jul 29, 2013 04:13
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Honestly applying for jobs listed on their company site/HR software is a waste of time. Most positions opened on their site are for an internal onboarding/promotion. They already know EXACTLY who it is they are going to hire, but by law must list the opening on their web site. Chances are your application/resume go directly into the trash, because they are interested only in giving their internal candidate the job. As for applying for jobs, I have better luck on Craigslist than anything else. Craigslist requires a bit of additional effort to put a job advertisement up on. Careerbuilder/Indeed/etc all just index websites and there is no telling which job openings are legitimately taking applications, but if someone took the time to put something up on Craigslist, chances are a real position is open. Outside of the scams obviously
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Jul 29, 2013 05:15
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I am on track to graduate at the end of next summer, and am starting to think about job options. Degree UCLA Asian Studies major and Global Studies minor Jobs of interest I am currently considering 2 routes, career Military or Foreign Service. If I end up career Military, I also considered that at the end of my service, I could attempt to apply for Foreign Service, or continue the Military track. Due to poor planning and time limitations, I am now no longer able to squeeze in an internship that requires 10 or more hours. (Over unit max, must graduate within certain time frame) With internship out of the window, I feel like my degree would have a very difficult time getting into the private sector. Quick note on the Military. If I end up in career Military, I intend to do something along the lines of international/public relations. Any advice on the 2 routes that I've considered? Or perhaps other possibilities for careers. ktimekiller fucked around with this message at 10:53 on Jul 29, 2013 |
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Jul 29, 2013 10:45
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Meta Ridley posted:Honestly applying for jobs listed on their company site/HR software is a waste of time. Most positions opened on their site are for an internal onboarding/promotion. They already know EXACTLY who it is they are going to hire, but by law must list the opening on their web site. If they have several listings of the same position, chances are they don't have enough internal candidates to fill all those. I got my first job out of college applying cold to a company website, and got at least a couple other phone interviews that way. As for the original question i would apply to all of them on the off-chance that they are being filled by different recruiters in the company.
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Jul 29, 2013 12:59
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ktimekiller posted:Any advice on the 2 routes that I've considered? Or perhaps other possibilities for careers I've got a somewhat similar background to you (Political Econ/Asian studies) and a few things come to mind. Hopefully we can draw some other similar peeps out of the woodwork, since I'm curious about this too! -Foreign service is really, really hard to get into. It's one of my long-term career goals too but you have to keep in mind that only something like 2% are selected of those who test each year. Worth shooting for but good to have a Plan B. -Consider the rest of the government, too: Peace Corps, USAID, Dep't of Commerce, FBI, etc. -The sequester really bites, still I had a job opp neatly lined up but they can't hire me until a budget is passed...-An internship would be incredibly helpful if you can squeeze one in there somehow even for 10h/week -Check out the Goons in Platoons forum. -Do you speak a foreign language fluently? International experience? -I agree that the private sector isn't great for folks like us but don't write it off immediately. There are NGOs/non-profits, for one. I am actually working in the corporate finance dep't at a multinational corporation for now and while it's not perfectly suited to my abilities, I do get to use my bilingual+economics skills, even hosted some cross-cultural training workshops and such.
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Jul 29, 2013 13:32
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I also got my current Engineering job by applying cold to the website. Believe me, I was shocked. I know a lot of advice is to throw everything at the wall and see what sticks for early in the process applications and I hate to speak against it, but mass applying may be a bad idea. Recently a position like mine opened up and the manager had visibility on an internal applicant that applied to many Engineer roles that were in the same department but different responsibilities. I don't believe s/he was asked to interview partly because it was a bit off putting. As in "this person seems like they just want to go SOMEWHERE and we want someone who knows what they want". Now I'm not sure if that was the sole reason, I would think not, but it was a surprise to me nonetheless. I still think you apply to a generous amount and then if they bring you in state your case. After all if you have the qualifications, you have the qualifications, so I err on the side of my story's applicant was probably missing skills/exp
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Jul 29, 2013 17:28
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Meta Ridley posted:Honestly applying for jobs listed on their company site/HR software is a waste of time. Most positions opened on their site are for an internal onboarding/promotion. They already know EXACTLY who it is they are going to hire, but by law must list the opening on their web site. disagree, I got called in for several jobs based on apply to company sites. Its certainly a low % option but when you're looking for a job, its fairly simple to spend a few hours cruising the web and making cold applications before you move on to better options.
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Jul 29, 2013 21:10
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Xguard86 posted:disagree, I got called in for several jobs based on apply to company sites. Its certainly a low % option but when you're looking for a job, its fairly simple to spend a few hours cruising the web and making cold applications before you move on to better options. Me too, and I even got hired from one. A lot of them now will let you import your resume from Linkedin (or just upload a pdf and it will insert everything into the text boxes). It's definitely not as good as networking, but if you need a job, you're missing some potentially good options by ignoring company websites. ktimekiller posted:I am on track to graduate at the end of next summer, and am starting to think about job options. Do you speak a critical language (near) fluently? Go with foreign service/other agencies.
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Jul 30, 2013 01:48
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I speak Korean fluently, and have been working on Japanese for 2 years
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Jul 30, 2013 01:55
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Internship isn't out the window. Internship for credit is out the window.
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Jul 30, 2013 01:58
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Well, it's not Mandarin, but Korean is considered a critical needs language and Japanese is pretty useful. Definitely apply to all the agencies and wait a bit to hear back before talking to a recruiter. edit: But also consider looking think tanks and NGOs. There are options and government is equally competitive. Xandu fucked around with this message at 02:03 on Jul 30, 2013 |
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Jul 30, 2013 02:00
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EDIT
ktimekiller fucked around with this message at 03:00 on Jul 30, 2013 |
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Jul 30, 2013 02:35
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ktimekiller posted:I am on track to graduate at the end of next summer, and am starting to think about job options. The FS is extremely difficult to get into, and impossible for a fresh grad. Don't join the military just because you have nothing better to do. If you speak Chinese or any other Asian language fluently, you have a niche in private industry. In fact, you probably have a stronger niche there than in government or the DC world right now given that no one is hiring.
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Jul 30, 2013 02:41
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Xandu fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Jul 30, 2013 |
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Jul 30, 2013 02:41
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:The FS is extremely difficult to get into, and impossible for a fresh grad. Don't join the military just because you have nothing better to do. Well I wouldn't be joining the Military because I have nothing better to do. I would go with the intent to do something along the lines of international/public relations. I tried asking around in GiP, and the response I got was that it takes several years of standard service before you become eligible for that kind of work.
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Jul 30, 2013 03:02
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I agree that for Asian Studies, try to get advanced in more languages. Take private tutoring if you have some money to spare. I've been studying Mandarin for a while, but an experienced tutor has helped propel me much farther and more quickly within six months than any self-study has, because it's more motivating. She's an MBA graduate and I don't think she has any formal teaching background, but she knows how to push me to make example sentences, etc. I have not passed this test yet, but I think the US Customs Broker exam (and then applying for a license if you want to do trade work or start a trade business) would be a good addition to such a degree. It has a low pass rate but anyone post-GED can take it, and it would allow access to doing international trade and economics-related legal work without needing a law degree. A good job still probably requires low-level internships and low-level work to have the best chances. However, it's another qualification to strive for besides graduate school education, without needing to meet strict credit-type requirements for something like the CPA exam. SecurityManKillJoy fucked around with this message at 03:22 on Jul 30, 2013 |
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Jul 30, 2013 03:19
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Xandu posted:Well, it's not Mandarin, but Korean is considered a critical needs language and Japanese is pretty useful. Definitely apply to all the agencies and wait a bit to hear back before talking to a recruiter. I speak Mandarin (also German, but that is likely useless) and have worked for a University doing J-visa poo poo for close to two years now. What specifically should I apply to? I have checked around on US government job listings and really haven't seen any "entry level" stuff; it's always like "MANAGER FOR X GOVERNMENT BRANCH" or whatever. I know about the procedure for entering the foreign service, but it's not something I want to do at this point in time.
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Jul 30, 2013 14:47
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Dos Dia Cia NSA FBI All directly recruit entry level analysts and agents/officers in some cases.
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Jul 30, 2013 18:40
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Some of them aren't really entry level, though. And none are really hiring right now. It's possible to get into the federal government, but like everything else it requires connections. And even that's not always a sure thing -- I know the child of a two-star who got a conditional offer for one of the agencies rescinded due to lack of funds. Working for a contractor is one way to get into government, for what it's worth. Or you could try non-profits, many are still hiring. Mandarin is still probably more in-demand in the private sector right now than the public sector.
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Jul 30, 2013 22:51
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I noticed someone mention that IT/developer hiring in the NE is "brutal" right now, so I'm not sure if this is even worth asking, but I'll shoot: I'm finishing up an internship with a major (15,000+ employees), private bank in Texas in the next week. They seem keen on hiring back a lot of interns for second internships and even full-time. The thing is, I don't know if I'm cut out for corporate right now.. it was really draining not being able to do much or having to sit and wait for things to go through the bureaucracy before pushing ahead. Additionally, the city isn't that great for someone who can't legally drink. I live in NJ right now and go to school in upstate NY. I've been looking around for potential opportunities, but it seems like it's too early to begin applying for internships (or even remote things). I have a mostly solid resume with a strong PHP/Full-stack web development background, so I'm not super worried about that aspect. What would probably kill me is commuting to NYC every day because I live about 1.5hrs from the city (regardless of whether I'm at school or at home). So should I stick it out and keep looking for internships in the NE? Or would it be better just to stick with what I have now if they offer me the chance to return for another summer. I'm a rising junior if this makes a difference. edit: Apparently the company I'm interning with extends offers about 2 weeks after my internship ends, with a hope to get a concrete response in maybe a month tops. So that's a wrench in the decision process as well.
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Jul 31, 2013 00:20
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do you have to accept/reject the offer right away? I mean, depending on the timeline, you can look around before saying yes or no.
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Aug 1, 2013 16:21
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I just finish a Master's degree (Chemistry) and have been looking for jobs for about six weeks. I just got off the phone with a recruiter who was telling me about "a very junior level position" (her words) where they were looking for someone with a six months of interning in this specific field of chemistry, and the recruiter sounded like my three-month internship in that same field and three YEARS (plus degree) of chemistry graduate work might not win me the position. Do an internship in college, and do it for as long as possible (and/or do multiple). If you or anyone you know is in college right now and does not have an internship lined up for their next extended break, get them to find one right now. Almost any place you want to get a job after college cares more about what skills you already have (so that they don't have to take the time and money to train you) than what you studied or how well you studied it. C-Euro fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Aug 1, 2013 |
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Aug 1, 2013 22:34
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C-Euro posted:I just finish a Master's degree (Chemistry) and have been looking for jobs for about six weeks. I just got off the phone with a recruiter who was telling me about "a very junior level position" (her words) where they were looking for someone with a six months of interning in this specific field of chemistry, and the recruiter sounded like my three-month internship in that same field and three YEARS (plus degree) of chemistry graduate work might not win me the position. I got a job without an internship, but I was working almost full time throughout all of college. You definitely don't have to have one, but it I got passed over for MANY MANY MANY jobs because of it. Also my lovely GPA didn't help. Best advice (that I didn't do): 1. Maintain a 3.0-3.5+ GPA 2. Have 2-3 internships 3. Have a decent personality 4. Learn to sell yourself
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Aug 1, 2013 22:55
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Xguard86 posted:do you have to accept/reject the offer right away? I mean, depending on the timeline, you can look around before saying yes or no. I'm not sure what time frame I'll have. Maybe a month tops I imagine. I definitely want to stay on the internship wagon, but I feel under utilized here and I haven't learned much to be honest. I've gotten some cursory knowledge about enterprise Java development and project management, but that's about it. My dilemma is whether I want to go reenter the job pool and hopefully find something more fast paced (but risk coming up empty handed) or stick with this internship again and just tough it out.
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Aug 2, 2013 00:13
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OK guys, I have a dilemma that has a pretty obvious solution, and I'm pretty sure you're all going to tell me I'm stupid for even being conflicted at all about what to do. Since SA drove me away from law school, I trust that the goon hive mind has decent judgment. Anyway, I graduated in May with my master's in applied economics, and have been searching for jobs since then. Because I couldn't stand the city I lived in for school, I traveled for a bit after graduation, then tentatively moved to San Francisco - one of the most expensive cities to live in and one of the most competitive job markets in the country - and have been here for a month, hemorrhaging money (though I have savings) and getting sick of the ennui of unemployment. I had worked an internship during grad school in Florida, and I know for a fact that the firm is full of really cool people that I like, and the work itself is very fulfilling, and surprisingly very well aligned with my incredibly specialized interests (environmental consulting). The firm loves me and wanted to get me to move to Florida after I graduated, but at first could only offer me a part-time position. Being arrogant and wanting to live in San Francisco, I turned down the offer and moved here. Lo and behold, it's tough to find any jobs that even exist within my specialization, and I'm competing with a top-notch workforce. Anyway, I wake up this morning and get an email from the Florida firm offering a full-time position, with a very healthy salary plus compensation for relocation. Being really tired of feeling directionless and spending a poo poo ton of money bouncing around in the Bay Area on Airbnb for a month (which isn't that long), I'm pretty tempted to just take it and move to Florida. The only thing holding me back is that I absolutely love San Francisco and have always wanted to move here, but that doesn't mean that it would be smart to turn down this great opportunity. I could always move back here when I have more experience and feel more qualified about my skill set (I have basically no experience outside of internship and school); after all - I'm only 25. So - thoughts? Should I just be super grateful to have this opportunity in the first place (which I am) and take it? Or should I think about it for a while and keep looking for jobs in SF - though I feel I've been really vague with them for like a month now and might wear out my welcome if I push my luck. For the record, I have some savings and no debt from grad school due to being very lucky.
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Aug 2, 2013 01:01
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Take the job.
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Aug 2, 2013 01:14
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What do you think BFC is going to say? Take the job.
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Aug 2, 2013 01:42
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Take the job and continue looking if you find life there insufferable. Hell, keep looking anyways.
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Aug 2, 2013 02:53
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Gotcha. That's what I was expecting, and I feel pretty good about that direction. I'll just have to take a piece of SF's soul power with me.
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Aug 2, 2013 05:44
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Take the goddamn job, and fly to SF when you want with your gobs of money.
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Aug 2, 2013 06:05
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Fluue posted:I noticed someone mention that IT/developer hiring in the NE is "brutal" right now, so I'm not sure if this is even worth asking, but I'll shoot: What's up, private bank intern buddy.  Next week is my last week of the internship. I'm supposed to find out during that week if I'm getting a job offer. Yikes.
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Aug 2, 2013 22:25
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Oakdale posted:thoughts? Move to Florida. You're 25! Chances are you'll be moving a few more times in your life yet. SF is awesome, but there are many places worse than Florida. Well... I suppose that depends on exactly WHERE in Florida you're moving. ;-)
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Aug 3, 2013 05:31
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I graduated in 2009 with a degree in Mechanical Engineering living in Houston, Texas. Sounds like an awesome place to be, right? Well, I did the "no regrets" thing and tried my hand at teaching for 4 years. I loved doing it; it was a great experience and I learned an immense amount of time management and presentation skills as well as having a blast. Now, I've moved to Tallahassee, FL because my fiancee is starting a PhD program at FSU, and I'd like to start a career that could support starting a family with a nice house and no debt. That said, breaking into engineering after a 4-year hiatus is difficult. One job recruiter who I asked for advice pretty much said to play up my college experiences and hide my teacher experience from my resume. A few questions: 1. How low is too low to aim to expect to be considered seriously for future engineering positions? I am willing to start as a "technical service representative" call center boy but I don't want to get stuck anywhere without upward mobility. 2. How much of my resume should I devote to my engineering projects from undergrad? I've got 1 senior project and 2 medium sized projects I can describe, or simply list. 3. How best should I include that I re-took the FE to prove (to myself) that I haven't forgotten anything since undergrad? Cover letter?
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Aug 3, 2013 19:25
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BrianBoitano posted:I graduated in 2009 with a degree in Mechanical Engineering living in Houston, Texas. Sounds like an awesome place to be, right? Ok, so full disclosure: I have zero experience in mechanical engineering, but have worked in a number of "high expectation jobs where college experience is directly applicable to what you do in your job", and I think some of this should be applicable to your situation: 1. Take everything recruiters say with several grains of salt. Recruiters approach searches with the goal of finding candidates with EXACTLY the profile that the company that's looking (their client) has asked for. Since most recruiters (and HR types at large companies) are not experts in what you specifically do, they tend to have difficulty determining whether the differences between your experience and what the client has asked for are significant or not. Hence they will always advise you to make yourself sound as close to the job description as possible, its the only advice they can reasonably give. Use your own judgement about whether you are qualified for a position, your intuition will likely steer you best. 2. If I saw a candidate for a position I was posting (would be finance for me) who had taken four years to do something else like teaching, my biggest concern would be whether they were really interested in the position I was looking to fill, or were simply applying because it wasn't what they had been doing and didn't like previously. Therefore make sure to include anything in your application that demonstrates your re-commitment to engineering: professional certifications you have reactivated, additional courses you took, etc. 3. As far as what you should apply for, I would suggest applying for whatever it is recent mechanical engineering grads apply for. (Sorry, as I said, its not my field) Assuming you can convince an employer that your skills haven't eroded and you are committed to this career path now, your teaching experience should give you some bonus points over the recent grads. First of all, you have spend some time in the real world and at 26ish you are likely to be a whole lot more grounded and realistic than someone who is 22ish. Also, like you said, teaching has provided you with some tangible skills in presentation and human interaction that should be very valuable in any business setting. Definitely don't sell yourself short just because you did something else for a while. Smart employers will be able to see that as an asset, especially if you can structure your resume and cover letter (yes you need one of those) to help explain it to them. Good Luck!
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Aug 5, 2013 16:28
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BrianBoitano posted:A few questions: Jobs you are looking for are going to have either "[blah] Engineer I" or "Associate Engineer" in their titles. Otherwise, if you can afford to do it, take some refreshers, FSU should offer some classes you can take. The 4 years doing not-engineering makes you look out of the loop and rusty. Trust me on this. Also, start networking. Though I'm not sure there's going to be too much outside of CAD monkey positions in Tallahassee. Who all is located there? "Spending time in the real world" means crap if the last 5 years of my life mean anything.
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Aug 6, 2013 01:30
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Fluue posted:I'm not sure what time frame I'll have. Maybe a month tops I imagine. the standard advice is to stay with a sure bet but if you feel like you're really not learning much and that job is not preparing you for the career you want, you might be better off looking around. Here is an anecdote to kind of explain what I mean: We have an intern at my firm who is finishing his summer term this week. In that time, the two of us (he did all the coding I did the requirements and product manager/owner type stuff) built a skunk works web application that will really change our business process. Thats 2 guys, an intern and me (a guy out of school for less than 5 years) doing something to effect the bottom line for a ~2000 person company. He learned a lot about real world development technically as well as the politics and human issues with building software. He rose to the occasion and is now employable as hell in the position he wants, with a list of people ready to give him glowing references and the satisfaction of really accomplishing something. If you don't feel like your internship is putting you on the path you want, better to change now than wait a decade and wake up miserable because your skills and experience aren't taking you where you want to go. Our company is in TX and not in a sexy industry, so don't limit yourself because there are cool niches out there for a motivated intern to make a difference and learn real skills.
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Aug 6, 2013 03:26
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