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peak debt posted:All this Durkon talk about free will is why you can't let most players keep playing their characters after they turn evil. Becaues they're always going to try to rule-lawyer themselves into basically staying as they were before instead of properly acting out the new part. That is a pretty bad argument. What exactly he is going to do now that he is free again depends entire on how Rich is going to handle the alignment shift. Maybe he starts turning people left and right, maybe he doesn't care about Xykon at all anymore, maybe he simple becomes much more ruthless in perusing him. All are equally valid options. Simply saying that his alignment only leaves him one option is exactly why the whole alignment thing is such a bad idea, people try to use to force characters into actions. The comic has shown times and again that alignment is not a substitute for a personality. Roy has done things that are not exactly Lawful Good, Belkar isn't constantly murdering everything and so one. Simply saying that Durkula has to turn his former friends because he is evil now is really not doing the writing any justice. My personal prediction is that Durkon either has a short existential crisis or simply dismisses his new undeadness and then decides that stopping Xykon is still the most important task at hand. He tries to teamup with the Order, only to be completely rejected by them as an abomination of their former friend. Then they realize that they really don't have a lot of options here, since Xykon is already on his way to last gate and form a temporary partnership until Xykon is finished (Probably with Roy saying something along the lines that he is personally going to stake Durkula once everything is over). I am not saying this will definitely happen, but it would fit the Oots writing style a hell of a lot better than "Durkon turns all his friends into vampires". Angela Christine posted:The bigger problem is that Roy is a stick in the mud, and will quite likely try to kill Durkon as soon as he can. Killing him and having him resurrected later could easily seem like a better idea to Roy than letting his friend slide further into evil. Durkon is going to need to eat, and I doubt his friends will be okay with that. (Being new he's probably a messy eater too.) You now, I was thinking the same thing, but the strips right after Durkon was turned really hammered home the point that Roy needs to change in that regard, so I guess we are going to see a little more moral flexibility in that regard. e X fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Jul 29, 2013 |
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Jul 29, 2013 16:30
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It's not even that much about his alignment, but also about the nature of vampires. A vampire doesn't ally with food. And let's be honest, the evil plan would be more efficient. Vampiric party members are stronger than living ones, especially if you have a staff of Protection from Sunlight. And mindcontrolled/dominated party members don't talk back, they do what they're told to. I'm not saying that this is what's going to happen, it would make for a pretty bad story, but Durkula going "I'm evil but not really" makes about as much sense as a munchkin player getting infected with lycanthropy/vampirism for the stats bonuses and then trying to keep playing their character the same way as before except with damage reduction. Tarquin is stronger than Malack though, so he didn't really have the choice of turning him instead. VV peak debt fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Jul 29, 2013 |
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Jul 29, 2013 16:37
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peak debt posted:It's not even that much about his alignment, but also about the nature of vampires. A vampire doesn't ally with food. Malak did.
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Jul 29, 2013 16:39
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I realize that Nale has a more guaranteed-to-be-active role in the comic, but I thought Malack was more interesting as a character  On the other hand, he also made no sense in a way that Durkon also had a problem with: this guy is a cleric, he's meant to be wise, but he just sort of schmoes around after his leader, takes advice rather than gives it, and in general is a walking healbot (as they once commiserated on). I know that characters =/= ability scores and all that, but lookit V ferchrissakes, everything V does makes sense as something a screwed-up smart person could do. I think the most evidence of wisdom we got off of either Durkon OR Malack was their ability to cast heal/harm.
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Jul 29, 2013 16:53
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I'm starting to think Durkon is going to decide to help the Order as best he can, cause of the gates business. And the best way he knows how to help them is to ensure that Belkar's prophetic demise doesn't leave them short on manpower, so he turns the murderous halfling into his vampire thrall.
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Jul 29, 2013 16:59
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That was amazingly satisfying. Suddenly I am a Nale fan.
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Jul 29, 2013 17:05
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A subtle thing. Durkon has been casting from his previously prepared spell list. He's definitely more than 1 step from Thor now. Because its an obtuse rules thing that nonetheless deals with the innate nature of the world they live in, I think we will see him struggle with not getting his spells refreshed. My guess is that's when the shock of what happened will really hit him, and the alignment question will come up. Also the party's average alignment is now basically true neutral, which will drive Roy nuts.
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Jul 29, 2013 17:19
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ikanreed posted:A subtle thing. Durkon has been casting from his previously prepared spell list. He's definitely more than 1 step from Thor now. Because its an obtuse rules thing that nonetheless deals with the innate nature of the world they live in, I think we will see him struggle with not getting his spells refreshed. I like to think that those panels with Thor arguing with Hel over some soul were foreshadowing. After all those times where the soul in question could go to either of them, she finally has a solid case where Thor can't win (due to the alignment thing) and gladly accepts Durkon as her cleric just so she can rub it in Thor's face.
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Jul 29, 2013 17:26
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Dr Pepper posted:Holy crap Nale. But it was based on his prior over-complex classing. Why'd you think he'd take levels in rogue if he wasn't planning to swipe something at the perfect moment?
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Jul 29, 2013 17:26
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Zonekeeper posted:I like to think that those panels with Thor arguing with Hel over some soul were foreshadowing Durkon eventually needing some other god to refresh his spell list. After all those times where the soul in question could go to either of them, she finally has a solid case where Thor can't win (due to the alignment thing) and gladly accepts Durkon as her cleric just so she can rub it in Thor's face. Yeah But alignment was already an issue for Durkon since Thor is Chaotic good.
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Jul 29, 2013 17:28
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Rumda posted:Yeah But alignment was already an issue for Durkon since Thor is Chaotic good. That still makes Durkon diametrically opposed to his deity's alignment now.
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Jul 29, 2013 17:34
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I'm pretty sure Rich has stated directly that Durkon can and will still cast spells. Which spells, I think, is a different question. And come on, people, OotS itself is the very best example for evil characters working with others because they're friends. Durkon is not going to forget all this, but it's very likely going to cause some pretty major relationship shifts.
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Jul 29, 2013 17:34
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Durkula teaming up with the Order is pretty likely at this point. Remember, he still has to make his way back to the Northern Lands to fulfill his prophecy, and guess where the Order is heading next? (Assuming we don't get a TPK at this point. But, hey, maybe Durkon will raise them?)
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Jul 29, 2013 17:41
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peak debt posted:turn as many of them into his vampire pets as the HD limit allows and dominating the rest Would that make them the Order of the Stake?
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Jul 29, 2013 17:52
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e X posted:You now, I was thinking the same thing, but the strips right after Durkon was turned really hammered home the point that Roy needs to change in that regard, so I guess we are going to see a little more moral flexibility in that regard. Yes. Roy is the only member of the Order who hasn't yet had a major character-changing arc, so that does seem likely.
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Jul 29, 2013 17:57
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It's funny; I was expecting Malack to die before taking Durkon too far from the Order, but at the same time, this strip came out of nowhere. I think Durkon will probably retain a good amount of his former personality, and will ally with the party again. Maybe even he'll be self-loathing, and only not ask to be killed because they still need to beat Xykon first. I can't see Durkon vampirizing the party, or turning Belkar into a thrall (if only because Belkar as mindless thrall would not be entertaining). DoctorTristan posted:Yes. Roy is the only member of the Order who hasn't yet had a major character-changing arc, so that does seem likely. Other than being dead? Rich's commentary in Book 2 (strips 122-300) indicated that that book was Roy's journey from just a guy on a quest to a true leader. Stabbey_the_Clown fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Jul 29, 2013 |
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Jul 29, 2013 18:13
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ikanreed posted:Also the party's average alignment is now basically true neutral, which will drive Roy nuts. Closer to Chaotic, I'd think-- Elan's CG, Haley's probably closer to CN than CG, Belkar's dipping his toes into CN/CG (depending on how many alignment tiers you think you can jump in one go), and Roy's escapades in Azure City and willingness to "use" Belkar indicates a pretty NG outlook, bordering (again) on CG. (In fact I wouldn't be surprised if we get a Roy character arc in the near future when someone calls him on his poo poo and compares him to Miko in terms of his "ends justify the means" mindset. Probably Elan, for maximum "gently caress you Roy"-ness.) /  And yes, while this is a "successful" kill for Nale, the timing seems horrible. While it may be the only opportunity for him to pull it off, now he's down two casters, and Durkula has a summoned beast and isn't going to be kindly disposed towards Nale for A. Killing his master, B. Being the enemy of the OOTS, C. Obviously able and predisposed to killing Malack and his "children", or D. Any combination of the above. The Order, assuming they finish off/out-wait their sand elemental and start running away, are probably going to help "Durkon" if he's attacking Nale &c no matter how red his eyes are-- Elan and Haley for sure, Roy because half his group is already there, and Belkar because what else would he do in the middle of a desert with 1HP. And even after all that, I have a feeling Tarquin is going to be a little peeved about Nale killing Malack, and having the Empire of Blood after you seems like a terrible idea all around. So yeah. Nale managing to backstab someone properly raises him to the level of "barely competent" in my book.
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Jul 29, 2013 18:19
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I think a good resolution to Roy's character arc would be if he somehow saved the day by casting a first level spell, revealing he just took a level of wizard, showing he finally can let loose some of his stubbornness and can admit when there are better options than his personal preference. A first level spell isn't going to thwart Xykon or anything, but a feather fall could save his life. greatn fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Jul 29, 2013 |
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Jul 29, 2013 18:25
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Ursine Asylum posted:And even after all that, I have a feeling Tarquin is going to be a little peeved about Nale killing Malack, and having the Empire of Blood after you seems like a terrible idea all around. Not much of a change from the last few years though.
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Jul 29, 2013 18:30
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peak debt posted:Not much of a change from the last few years though. Ish. Tarquin, so far as I could tell, still saw Nale as "useful". This may raise it to the level of being "personal", but given how Tarquin's defied "evil ruler" tropes so far, it really is a tossup based on how strongly he feels about Malack as a friend vs. how strongly he feels about being an effective evil power-behind-the-throne. If Tarquin had Nale in the palm of his hand, like he did before this whole Gate thing, would be be more likely to say "You killed my friend, now you're dead", or "Oh, you killed Malack, guess you're more effective than him, want his place?" And if it was the latter, would he then backstab Nale in return when his guard is down?
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Jul 29, 2013 18:34
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Ursine Asylum posted:...and Roy's escapades in Azure City and willingness to "use" Belkar indicates a pretty NG outlook, bordering (again) on CG. (In fact I wouldn't be surprised if we get a Roy character arc in the near future when someone calls him on his poo poo and compares him to Miko in terms of his "ends justify the means" mindset. Probably Elan, for maximum "gently caress you Roy"-ness.) Roy is Lawful Good
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Jul 29, 2013 18:49
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DoctorTristan posted:Yes. Roy is the only member of the Order who hasn't yet had a major character-changing arc, so that does seem likely. Roy learned to value Elan, he sacrificed his dignity to save Elan, he fell in love, he died and came to terms with how awful his father is...how much more change would you like? Indeed, his willingness to acknowledge Elan and even listen to Belkar shows his character development. Let's not forget that this was a man who so distrusted the rest of his party that he stayed on watch every night! Compare that to the modern Roy Greenhilt! The fact that he's still a sarcastic SOB hasn't changed, sure, but there are good reasons for that. But to say that Roy hasn't changed? Ridiculous. He's had the most attention paid to his character over the course of the series than anyone else. Don't be fooled because Roy's changes have been gradual instead of being heralded in huge dramatic temptations, professions of love, training montages, deaths by vampire, or trippy dream sequences. Roy's the closest this strip has to a main character. This story is his story. Arguably, the whole of The Order of the Stick is Roy Greenhilt's major character-changing arc!
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Jul 29, 2013 18:49
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One important note: There are no witnesses to Nale's deed that are not also allied with Nale. They could invent whatever story they wanted, such as Malack dying in the Pyramid to some trap, and Tarquin would have no proof otherwise. I've no doubt he would suspect, but he'd probably gush about how Nale pulled off a perfect coup and retained all plausible deniability. It's a classic villainous move!
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Jul 29, 2013 18:51
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ConfusedUs posted:One important note: There are no witnesses to Nale's deed that are not also allied with Nale. You mean except Durkon?
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Jul 29, 2013 18:54
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jng2058 posted:You mean except Durkon? I doubt he'll stick around to tattle on Nale.
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Jul 29, 2013 19:12
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Not to mention Durkon would probably not be happy with Malack for tearing him away from the happy afterlife he was looking forward to. I look forward to seeing Durkon's character develop at all with this, to be honest. The whole run of the comic he's been so bland it's hard to predict how he'd respond to being raised as undead. Part of that might be the forced alignment change, though; alignment rules and developed personality don't mix.
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Jul 29, 2013 19:28
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From a storytelling perspective, I think the existence of the daylight protection spells on the staff basically guarantees Durkula is going to go with the Order. Basically it's an ultra convenient way for him to continue casting that spell over the next several weeks, since he of course he can't cast it himself yet. Interestingly, Malack did not cast the spell from the staff when protecting Durkon. Somewhat foolish frugality perhaps. As far as Durkula being evil, I think his lawful tendencies will win out. After all he's bound by contract to "continue working together until Xykon is defeated ONCE AND FOR ALL." However, this (possibly) won't stop him from enacting a hideous revenge once he learns that he was lied to by his fellow dwarves when they sent him away. If this has been stated already sorry, the thread is moving fast.
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Jul 29, 2013 19:55
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Ursine Asylum posted:And yes, while this is a "successful" kill for Nale, the timing seems horrible. While it may be the only opportunity for him to pull it off, he's down two casters(snip) How is Nale down two casters, exactly? Malak has made abundantly clear time and time again that he works with Tarquin, not Nale. Malak all but uses a spell to have huge orange letters say "Nale: I will kill you when your dad says I'm allowed." and Nale specifically points this out in the largest comic. Nale isn't down two casters, he's down one explicit enemy, has an enemy in a moral/algnment crisies, and his father is in need of a new ally, and Tarquin has shown time and again that dwelling on losses isnt his bag and snatching at opportunities is. Nale is now someone smart and powerful enogh to keep around precisely because he took down someone as powerful and entrenched as Malack. Anyone who thinks this hasn't been a total gain for Nale hadn't been reading the story
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Jul 29, 2013 20:01
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Who What Now posted:How is Nale down two casters, exactly? Malak has made abundantly clear time and time again that he works with Tarquin, not Nale. Malak all but uses a spell to have huge orange letters say "Nale: I will kill you when your dad says I'm allowed." and Nale specifically points this out in the largest comic. Nale isn't down two casters, he's down one explicit enemy, has an enemy in a moral/algnment crisies, and his father is in need of a new ally, and Tarquin has shown time and again that dwelling on losses isnt his bag and snatching at opportunities is. Nale is now someone smart and powerful enogh to keep around precisely because he took down someone as powerful and entrenched as Malack. He's down two casters in the immediate term. Yes, Malack has said he wants to kill Nale and yes, Tarquin basically said "Go on if you think you're hard enough once I give you the go-ahead", but that's still in the future. The Order isn't dead yet and V's an unknown quantity, so I still think that Nale jumped the gun here-- and within a comic or two V's going to come out swinging, driving that point home for Nale.
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Jul 29, 2013 20:12
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Grogquock posted:As far as Durkula being evil, I think his lawful tendencies will win out. After all he's bound by contract to "continue working together until Xykon is defeated ONCE AND FOR ALL." However, this (possibly) won't stop him from enacting a hideous revenge once he learns that he was lied to by his fellow dwarves when they sent him away. If this has been stated already sorry, the thread is moving fast. Technically, he's not contractually bound to the Xykon affair.
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Jul 29, 2013 20:13
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Durkon really needs to take that 60 ft run action as soon as he can. There might be another dispel magic in his future otherwise.
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Jul 29, 2013 20:28
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ikanreed posted:Durkon really needs to take that 60 ft run action as soon as he can. There might be another dispel magic in his future otherwise. He has the staff.
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Jul 29, 2013 20:30
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Zzditri is a wizard, he can't cast on the fly. Exactly how many greater dispel magics do you think he memorized?
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Jul 29, 2013 20:38
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Found something interesting a few strips after that one: The swordsmith that made Roy's new sword mentions that it will sometimes glow with energy that is harmful to the undead. Maybe Durkon won't be able to rejoin the party after all. Apologies if this was already mentioned 
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Jul 29, 2013 20:42
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Good memory on that one. At least the written contract doesn't count, although they all sort of reaffirmed it orally afterwards.
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Jul 29, 2013 20:43
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Erakko posted:Found something interesting a few strips after that one: The swordsmith that made Roy's new sword mentions that it will sometimes glow with energy that is harmful to the undead. Maybe Durkon won't be able to rejoin the party after all. Apologies if this was already mentioned It's not an aura or anything, it just makes it stronger against undead.
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Jul 29, 2013 20:45
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This is interesting. Apparently, Rich had the idea of making Durkon a vampire since after Strip #1 (just for the "Durkon turned undead" joke"). There's more to the post than just what I quoted, so go ahead and read that link. quote:One of the things I may have mentioned in Dungeon Crawlin' Fools is that while strip #1 was always the first comic, strip #4 was actually the next one produced. Before I posted it, however, I produced another strip that has never been posted; we'll call it #A.
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Jul 29, 2013 20:57
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From a narrative perspective, if Durkon does wind up with the Order again, it gives Rich more interesting stuff to do with his character- Durkon is loyal and courageous, which in a novel might be a useful archetype to have, in a comic he's generally left out of the action because there's not enough to do with him.
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Jul 29, 2013 21:07
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:This is interesting. Apparently, Rich had the idea of making Durkon a vampire since after Strip #1 (just for the "Durkon turned undead" joke"). There's more to the post than just what I quoted, so go ahead and read that link. That's awesome. So the entire dramatic storyline of Durkon's death was conceived solely in the service of a pun. Makes me want to go back and look for foreshadowing.
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Jul 29, 2013 21:11
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ImpAtom posted:He has the staff. Yes, the reason to get away from the character capable of sunder/disarm checks. To whomever asked how many greater dispel magics Z has: Nale knew in advance that Malack would have 2 protection from sunlight spells each day. He didn't know about Dorkula in advance.
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Jul 29, 2013 21:36
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