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quote:"Over a 10-year period, that isn't a huge amount of money," Heinrich said, "compared to what you save in welfare paying for these unwanted children – as they procreated more." I really don't know what's worse, the assumption that the children are unwanted or the appeals to saving the Taxpayer dollars through civil rights violations.
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Jul 25, 2013 17:43
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I posted this in GBS and got this handy custom and a closed thread for my hubris, so I thought I'd link it here for food for thought. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/23/us-v-blewett-obama-justice-department-shame I imagine it's nothing that we don't already know about, but it sure got me annoyed today. Prohibitionary laws have created overfilled prisons and made the work of a police officer harder, more dangerous, and lacking in ethical strength.
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Jul 25, 2013 19:01
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anglachel posted:The Feds need to take control of the entire prison system of California ASAP This really is a thing that should happen. It's the only way the CCPOA can be broken.
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Jul 25, 2013 19:50
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Why do people appeal to the federal government as a solution, when the fact that the very policies the federal government has passed has created the problem in the first place? Is it because the alternative is too unbearable?
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Jul 25, 2013 21:41
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Powercrazy posted:Why do people appeal to the federal government as a solution, when the fact that the very policies the federal government has passed has created the problem in the first place? The federal government may well be the biggest screw the rule of law bully of the first world - but CA's prison problems have nothing to do with federal policy. Powercrazy posted:Is it because the alternative is too unbearable?
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Jul 25, 2013 22:03
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Jesus christ reading this thread just makes me really sad and ashamed sometimes. quote:I guess you could say I felt trapped. I still do, sadly. The bars are different now though. The prison offers a different view, and I feel like I can escape if I can just get my hands on the right tools or find the right loose stone. I’ll scramble through the walls and plunge off the edge, down a cliff and into the sea. And there I’ll swim, floundering for a time. I may drown, but I trust my arms will bear my weight. I trust I’ll know which way the current is going, and I’ll swim against it for as long as I can. Perhaps this time, perhaps now, I can break free, and then there will be nothing but horizon to hold me back. My friend wrote that in prison when he got busted with some weed. Theres got to be a way to fix this. A better way. He called it Combat Prison Poetry. Not sure why but I like the name. He'd get beat up a lot because he's not really tough but this got him through. I saved a bunch of writings of his. ClemenSalad fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Jul 25, 2013 |
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Jul 25, 2013 22:31
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Powercrazy posted:Why do people appeal to the federal government as a solution, when the fact that the very policies the federal government has passed has created the problem in the first place? Is it because the alternative is too unbearable? Because speaking as someone who has worked a high security / mental health prison, every single story I hear about California prisons makes me thinkg "how the gently caress did they not get fired for that?". I saw plenty of people get fired for abuses, plenty of people get demoted, poo poo like this is not tolerated everywhere. Prison is a terrible terrible place, but it can be managed in a way that makes it at least survivable. And what laws are you talking about? Drug offense laws? Most first time marijuana users will get probation, it's only if they keep going at it that they get the prison time. Most drug offenses that result in prison time from you know, actually being inside the system are from intent to distribute charges. And drug courts are getting really popular to help deal with drug offenses. I mean if a Republican Governor in the state of Georgia is 1000 percent behind the Drug Court system then I'm pretty sure that odds are good that some kind of progress is going to be made.
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Jul 26, 2013 01:03
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anglachel posted:I mean if a Republican Governor in the state of Georgia is 1000 percent behind the Drug Court system then I'm pretty sure that odds are good that some kind of progress is going to be made.
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Jul 26, 2013 01:12
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When the federal government allowed state/local municipalities to keep the money/assets they seized from drug busts, drug busts increased tremendously. Basically the federal government directly supports the states war on drugs, and implicitly causes all the abuses of the justice system therein.
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Jul 26, 2013 06:35
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Powercrazy posted:When the federal government allowed state/local municipalities to keep the money/assets they seized from drug busts, drug busts increased tremendously. Basically the federal government directly supports the states war on drugs, and implicitly causes all the abuses of the justice system therein. The existence of federal adoptive forfeiture provisions, which have been in place for 30 years and constitute maybe 1 percent of CA's law enforcement budgets, while bad, does not justify refusing to ask a separate branch of the federal government to stop the state-wide 8th Amendment violations in CA's prison system.
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Jul 26, 2013 07:35
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Powercrazy posted:When the federal government allowed state/local municipalities to keep the money/assets they seized from drug busts, drug busts increased tremendously. Basically the federal government directly supports the states war on drugs, and implicitly causes all the abuses of the justice system therein.
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Jul 26, 2013 10:41
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MechPlasma posted:What else could they do with the money? Since asset forfeiture reform is off the table, it could be put in the general fund, required spending on something that isn't the police (let's say schools since they're perpetually short of money while the police are buying up APCs), anything really. The important thing is to get rid of the financial incentivization to conduct asset forfeitures, that's the kind of thing that leads directly to abuses.
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Jul 26, 2013 12:22
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Kugyou no Tenshi posted:Georgia Drug Courts are more or less a pipeline to corporate-run treatment centers. Gov. Deal is "1000 percent behind the Drug Court system" for the same reason he was 1000 percent behind the charter school bill - corporate lobbying. The Drug Courts are also still tools to push the same "drugs bad, abstinence good" mentality that fuels the War on Drugs in the first place, just without jail time. But it also makes it politically acceptable for the Republican narrative to switch to rehabilitation instead of "always punish, all the time". Baby steps. Drug court has massive flaws, (some of which the general public don't know about quite yet such as massive racism in who gets to go or not) but its still a step in the right direction. I'm still flabbergasted at the attitude on the internet that 180 degree reform is something that can realistically happen.
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Jul 26, 2013 13:50
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Kugyou no Tenshi posted:Georgia Drug Courts are more or less a pipeline to corporate-run treatment centers. Gov. Deal is "1000 percent behind the Drug Court system" for the same reason he was 1000 percent behind the charter school bill - corporate lobbying. The Drug Courts are also still tools to push the same "drugs bad, abstinence good" mentality that fuels the War on Drugs in the first place, just without jail time. http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/430/very-tough-love A drug court program that we believe is run differently from every other drug court in the country, doing some things that are contrary to the very philosophy of drug court. The result? People with offenses that would get minimal or no sentences elsewhere sometimes end up in the system five to ten years.
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Jul 26, 2013 13:52
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Powercrazy posted:When the federal government allowed state/local municipalities to keep the money/assets they seized from drug busts, drug busts increased tremendously. Basically the federal government directly supports the states war on drugs, and implicitly causes all the abuses of the justice system therein. These perverse incentives work for traffic violations all the way to private prisons. Modern policing is legalized banditry.
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Jul 26, 2013 15:48
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anglachel posted:I'm still flabbergasted at the attitude on the internet that 180 degree reform is something that can realistically happen. Aren't you a screw? Don't be too surprised at people taking positions that might seem extreme to you; after all, no position seems so extreme to me as actually working under the current system.
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Jul 26, 2013 20:09
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MechPlasma posted:I never got why most places don't give former criminals back their voting rights. If you're taking an approach that anyone can become reformed, and you want to encourage reformation as much as possible, then why prevent them from having basic civil rights? That's not going to make people feel welcomed back to society at all! I'm sorry if this is either stupid or obvious (non-US citizen, and not so acquinted with the politics), but isn't it because a new group of voters with prison background could launch and support a candidate running on prison reform? I may be jaded, but if this thread has taught me anything, it's that US politicians are more interested in their gravy trains than welcoming 'criminals' back into society.
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Jul 30, 2013 08:07
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Tias posted:I'm sorry if this is either stupid or obvious (non-US citizen, and not so acquinted with the politics), but isn't it because a new group of voters with prison background could launch and support a candidate running on prison reform? That's how I see it too. (..and also why the US still has a two-party system.)
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Jul 30, 2013 08:59
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MechPlasma posted:I never got why most places don't give former criminals back their voting rights. If you're taking an approach that anyone can become reformed, and you want to encourage reformation as much as possible, then why prevent them from having basic civil rights? That's not going to make people feel welcomed back to society at all! Well, what are they gonna do about it? They can't vote the guy who keeps them disenfranchised out.
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Jul 30, 2013 13:50
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If you want to vote don't go to prison?
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Jul 30, 2013 14:14
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This thread should have established enough times that innocent people get jailed - you're creating a slave class here.
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Jul 30, 2013 15:03
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http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/501/the-view-from-in-here?act=1#playThis American Life posted:A recording of a very unusual conversation that came about in an unusual way. Filmmaker named Eugene Jarecki made a documentary about the drug war, prisons and the criminal justice system called The House I Live In. This is from the latest episode of This American Life, and I really liked it. I've struggled with the idea that, as a recreational drug user who is afraid of going to jail, that all cops are faceless people who are out to get me and throw me in a box for the rest of my life. I have trouble with that because I realize that if I think like this, then I have no ground to stand on when members of the criminal justice system lump me in with every other person who breaks laws. I've often dreamed about finding a way to connect criminals with law enforcement people so that we can humanize each other instead of operating based off of labels. This story did a good job of presenting what I would like to see more of - because as much as I like staying informed by reading this thread, the state of the prison system gets me genuinely depressed sometimes.
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Jul 30, 2013 15:31
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Cole posted:If you want to vote don't go to prison? How do you "not go to prison"? Oh, by the way, crooked cops are about to knock down your door and plant narcotics on you. Anyway, my question?
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Jul 30, 2013 15:52
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SedanChair posted:How do you "not go to prison"? Oh, by the way, crooked cops are about to knock down your door and plant narcotics on you. Anyway, my question? This is so rare that it is completely disingenuous to bring up. With that logic we shouldn't do anything to convicted criminals at all. Also surprised no one brought up that you can indeed get your voting rights back.
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Jul 30, 2013 16:00
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ClemenSalad posted:This is so rare that it is completely disingenuous to bring up. With that logic we shouldn't do anything to convicted criminals at all. Also surprised no one brought up that you can indeed get your voting rights back. I'm sure you can count on its rarity.
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Jul 30, 2013 16:10
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ClemenSalad posted:This is so rare that it is completely disingenuous to bring up. With that logic we shouldn't do anything to convicted criminals at all. Well, yeah, we shouldn't abuse them. And there really shouldn't be any chance of going to prison simply for having drugs anyway. Charging with intent to sell due to amount is bullshit, too.
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Jul 30, 2013 16:11
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SedanChair posted:I'm sure you can count on its rarity. Why is that?
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Jul 30, 2013 16:12
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PT6A posted:Well, yeah, we shouldn't abuse them. And there really shouldn't be any chance of going to prison simply for having drugs anyway. Charging with intent to sell due to amount is bullshit, too. Thats an opinion I generally agree with although I'm not sure what relevance it has to what I said. In his world they would just find a new thing to "plant."
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Jul 30, 2013 16:13
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ClemenSalad posted:This is so rare that it is completely disingenuous to bring up. With that logic we shouldn't do anything to convicted criminals at all. Also surprised no one brought up that you can indeed get your voting rights back. This is straight-up Just World thinking in action. In fact we don't know how many of convicted criminals are actually guilty, but there is some pretty solid research that shows that the rate of false convictions is higher than people think.
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Jul 30, 2013 16:18
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Cerebral Bore posted:This is straight-up Just World thinking in action. In fact we don't know how many of convicted criminals are actually guilty, but there is some pretty solid research that shows that the rate of false convictions is higher than people think. What does exonorating people on new technology like DNA evidence have to do with the rates of police planting false evidence on people?
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Jul 30, 2013 16:20
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You really don't need to plant guns/drugs on people anymore. Most people can be arrested and imprisoned for pretty much anything and even if the charges are eventually dropped you can severely disrupt their life and cause them significant economic burden effortlessly if you are part of the judiciary.
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Jul 30, 2013 16:28
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Tias posted:I'm sorry if this is either stupid or obvious (non-US citizen, and not so acquinted with the politics), but isn't it because a new group of voters with prison background could launch and support a candidate running on prison reform? That's certainly convenient for politicians, but it's not why the general populace supports or at least accepts it. It's more fundamental than that. Felons are disenfranchised because they're considered to have broken the social contract by committing a crime, and therefore have lost the right to participate in society as equals. That's why we officially revoke many of their fundamental rights. Of course, it's also a convenient way to disenfranchise racial minorities, who tend to be disproportionately targeted by the system. I'm going completely off memory here, but something like 1 in 6 black males have spent time in prison, and the resulting disenfranchisement affects a statistically significant proportion of the black community. The racial effect isn't always a coincidence, either; one of the central pillars of Jim Crow in the South was arresting blacks and feeding them into the system so that their newly-won rights could be revoked, and the War on Drugs has been accused of having a similar objective.
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Jul 30, 2013 16:34
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ClemenSalad posted:Why is that? Because judging by your posts, you are so sheltered that I doubt the police know you exist.
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Jul 30, 2013 16:37
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ClemenSalad posted:What does exonorating people on new technology like DNA evidence have to do with the rates of police planting false evidence on people? Because DNA evidence is usually only applicable in a select few types of crime, so for every person exonerated because of that, there's probably at least ten more wrongfully convicted people who weren't lucky enough to get exonerated. And this is why assuming that misconduct in the judicial system as whole must be so rare as to be negligible is pretty drat questionable.
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Jul 30, 2013 16:41
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Main Paineframe posted:Of course, it's also a convenient way to disenfranchise racial minorities, who tend to be disproportionately targeted by the system. I'm going completely off memory here, but something like 1 in 6 black males have spent time in prison, and the resulting disenfranchisement affects a statistically significant proportion of the black community. The racial effect isn't always a coincidence, either; one of the central pillars of Jim Crow in the South was arresting blacks and feeding them into the system so that their newly-won rights could be revoked, and the War on Drugs has been accused of having a similar objective. Cerebral Bore posted:Because DNA evidence is usually only applicable in a select few types of crime, so for every person exonerated because of that, there's probably at least ten more wrongfully convicted people who weren't lucky enough to get exonerated.
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Jul 30, 2013 17:25
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SedanChair posted:How do you "not go to prison"? Oh, by the way, crooked cops are about to knock down your door and plant narcotics on you. Anyway, my question? What kind of situation are you putting yourself in that cops are busting down your door to plant narcotics?
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Jul 30, 2013 17:28
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MechPlasma posted:Alright, I'll bite: what makes you think the police or government is out to get black men? Because the police aren't stupid. They're petty, corrupt, racist, and incompetent in a number of ways, but they rarely charge people out of ignorance. Wrongful conviction = police misconduct, simple as that.
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Jul 30, 2013 17:29
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Cops don't convict people.
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Jul 30, 2013 17:33
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That's why I wrote charge, hotshot. E: And wrongful convictions can of course come about because of a bad judge or what have you, but that doesn't change the fact that cops routinely detain people for things they didn't do, and then lie to keep the fix in.
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Jul 30, 2013 17:34
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MechPlasma posted:That doesn't answer the question. Specifically, how does wrongful convictions show police misconduct? Coerced confessions, for one thing. Just one. You know that.
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Jul 30, 2013 17:35
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