|
Platypus Farm posted:I'm pretty sure if you had pro football players in front of a camera and on the internet without any coaches or team PR managers telling them to shut the gently caress up, they'd be doing the same stupid bullshit that Fchamp and ChrisG and all the rest of these doofus motherfuckers do constantly. Google Riley Cooper for relevance.
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 06:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 23:08 |
|
|
Seymour Butts posted:I don't understand why the players don't just agree to split after the fact, but pick their poo poo? Because a lot of participants in the FGC are immature and not particularly intelligent.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 06:35
|
|
|
You know why I'm honestly pretty inclined to believe Sanford? Back during the period of Sanford vs Dieminion GF that everyone joked about, every week Sanford picked his poo poo and tried his hardest against his friend and teammate who he most likely was splitting with every time. Maybe he really was just counterpicking until Chris actually picked his poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 06:47
|
|
|
Brett824 posted:You know why I'm honestly pretty inclined to believe Sanford? Back during the period of Sanford vs Dieminion GF that everyone joked about, every week Sanford picked his poo poo and tried his hardest against his friend and teammate who he most likely was splitting with every time. Maybe he really was just counterpicking until Chris actually picked his poo poo. How many times have you seen Sanford pick something other than Sagat in SF4.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 06:52
|
|
|
Brett824 posted:You know why I'm honestly pretty inclined to believe Sanford? Back during the period of Sanford vs Dieminion GF that everyone joked about, every week Sanford picked his poo poo and tried his hardest against his friend and teammate who he most likely was splitting with every time. Maybe he really was just counterpicking until Chris actually picked his poo poo. It's more likely his ego won't let him just pick Sagat because he felt he doesn't need him to beat his Yang. I swear it's like ChrisG does it on purpose. Then again they both looked at Spooky and laughed at him after the picks. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 06:53
|
|
|
PonchAxis posted:How many times have you seen Sanford pick something other than Sagat in SF4. The times where he's picked Ryu and Viper, his secondary characters. I mean the choice of Balrog in particular was pretty damning, but if he has chosen one of the characters he's been using for years in SSF4 I'd honestly be inclined to believe him. apple posted:It's more likely his ego won't let him just pick Sagat because he felt he doesn't need him to beat his Yang. I swear it's like ChrisG does it on purpose. Then again they both looked at Spooky and laughed at him after the picks. Okay, I didn't see/notice them doing that. That's... pretty boneheaded.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 06:54
|
|
|
ChrisG and Sanford also did a very exaggerated handshake with a wink before the match started as well. They were really mocking the whole collusion rule and dared Spooky to challenge it.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 06:57
|
|
|
I've been out of the FGC for a while, but from what I remember it was pretty normal for players in the GF of small events to agree to split the pot. I guess its hard to get out of the mindset of small local events being just a group of guys getting together to play some games, rather than sas something people (like sp00ky) put a lot of time and effort into. Like sp00ky said, streaming tournaments is his job and not putting the effort into the finals is not only disrespectful to him but also damages his brand. That being said, there does probably need to be an exploration of counter pick rules and character options.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 07:05
|
|
|
swmmrmanshen posted:That being said, there does probably need to be an exploration of counter pick rules and character options. Not really. If you are capable of critical thinking it's pretty easy to tell when people are trying and when they're loving around, regardless of what characters they pick.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 07:07
|
|
|
Jmcrofts posted:Not really. If you are capable of critical thinking it's pretty easy to tell when people are trying and when they're loving around, regardless of what characters they pick. Of course its obvious, but my point is that 'its obvious' is not a compelling argument, nor can it really be proven. I think sp00ky was totally justified in his actions. My point is that I believe having an explicitly clear rule set stating appropriate character choices would help reduce the gray area for people to argue and get upset. Competitions require clear and defined rules in order to maintain the validity of the competition. This really hasn't been a problem for video games because the game tells you who wins and who loses rather than a ref deciding a ball crossed some arbitrary line. But as eSports/FGC/whatever you wanna call it grows, having a clear definition for player behavior within the realm of the competition but not necessarily the game becomes important in order to maintain that competitive integrity. That sense of competition and drama is why there's a much higher demand for watching tournaments with financial stakes on the line, rather than just watching good players play casual sets with each other.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 07:19
|
|
|
I believe Chris G wanted to make the point that you can't tell whether its collusion just by the character you pick (and he seems to have a lot of pocket characters). I think Sanford was in on this just as well and they both own for doing this and not letting poopy babies dictate what the players have to do, they're not playing for the stream monsters after all, even though that's what more and more people are expecting the players to do since streams became so popular.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 07:28
|
|
|
heiden posted:I believe Chris G wanted to make the point that you can't tell whether its collusion just by the character you pick (and he seems to have a lot of pocket characters). I think Sanford was in on this just as well and they both own for doing this and not letting poopy babies dictate what the players have to do, they're not playing for the stream monsters after all, even though that's what more and more people are expecting the players to do since streams became so popular. It's still a huge waste of the TO's time, and if they just wanted to have some casual matches then they should do it on their own time. Remove the stream from the equation and theres still no good reason to pot split and then gently caress around. swmmrmanshen posted:Thus, the need for an explicitly clear rule set. The problem with an explicit ruleset is that people have bad days, people prefer characters that might technically suck in a matchup, someone might know that this specific opponent hasnt practiced against Evil Ryu and thinks he can gently caress him up with him. "Ill know it when I see it" isnt perfect, but in a situation like this a rulebook just doesnt work. Gutcruncher fucked around with this message at 07:38 on Aug 1, 2013 |
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 07:34
|
|
|
heiden posted:I believe Chris G wanted to make the point that you can't tell whether its collusion just by the character you pick (and he seems to have a lot of pocket characters). Thus, the need for an explicitly clear rule set.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 07:35
|
|
|
swmmrmanshen posted:Thus, the need for an explicitly clear rule set. Don't see how that's possible and not simply going to cause a bunch of drama and people crying fraud all over the place but FGC really wants to push into e-sports now even though they're never going to escape poverty.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 07:39
|
|
|
I don't know too much about the top fighting game players, but I know a lot of people in the Magic: the Gathering pro community, where all the top players split every tournament. The difference seems to be that concessions aren't seen as such a horrible thing, which helps prevent BS matches, and the top players in that, unlike pro FGC players know when to play out matches instead of sandbagging. I'm not sure if that's because most splits aren't 50/50, but like 15 or 20 percent, but they seem to know that in the top8 you play the matches even if you have a split.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 07:58
|
|
|
Maybe these fighters should stop being "dumb babies" and just play off on their own with their own pots funded from their own time and money and just stop going to the tournaments that are clearly too esports and overly dramatic for them. Except, they won't because they show up to these tournaments to take other people's money and then cry when they are expected to adhere to some simple, basic rules and expectations. It's really not very hard and as much as certain people want to make it seem like TOs and such are creating problems, the fact remains that it's the fighters being stupid that is causing all this drama. Pretty simple stuff. If you want to play for other people's money in a tournament, then you are going to obey the rules and not waste people's time. It doesn't matter how dumb you think the rules are or how impossible to enforce you think they are. Doesn't matter at all. If you do not like those rules then do not participate. Do not play for that money. Go somewhere else and have fun over there. It's not your event. It's not your money (until you win it.) You can't have your cake and eat it too. It seems like some fighters think that they are entitled to both more money AND having things be run the way that they have been run for more than a decade. It's either or. You can have more money, or you can keep things like they were. If the FGC truly wanted things to stay the way they were, poo poo like EVO would not be happening on the scale that it is today. CEO would not be happening. They want those bigger pots. They want more events with more chances to win big money. They want those sponsorships. They want "esports" dollars. If they didn't they wouldn't support these kinds of events. Bashing esports online doesn't mean dick when you go to every major and regional during the year.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 08:04
|
|
|
The players are going to have to realize at some point that pro fighting games only have a chance to be profitable if they're seen as entertaining, legitimate competition. The viewers need to be entertained to create new and repeat viewers, because that's what draws in the sponsors who will actually inject the money into the scene that some of the top players wish they were making. They can play casuals like the rest of us if they want to gently caress around. Spooky is awesome for basically telling them to go play their casual bullshit somewhere else.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 08:05
|
|
|
TenaciousJ posted:The players are going to have to realize at some point that pro fighting games only have a chance to be profitable if they're seen as entertaining, legitimate competition. The viewers need to be entertained to create new and repeat viewers, because that's what draws in the sponsors who will actually inject the money into the scene that some of the top players wish they were making. They can play casuals like the rest of us if they want to gently caress around. Spooky is awesome for basically telling them to go play their casual bullshit somewhere else. Arturo kind of called the FG players out as well afterward. To paraphrase, "they are too goddamned stupid to realize what is in their best interests" and that "they are too focused on short term money."
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 08:10
|
|
|
ToastyPotato posted:Arturo kind of called the FG players out as well afterward. To paraphrase, "they are too goddamned stupid to realize what is in their best interests" and that "they are too focused on short term money." Yeah I was watching.  Most of the arguments coming from the players are so short-sighted and easy to pick apart. You want to practice under pressure? Use the character the whole tournament. Don't try to tell all of us that only the finals have the right kind of pressure when we already know you're splitting the pot. Just give the viewers and sponsors a respectable match to preserve entertainment value, or don't play on stream.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 08:17
|
|
|
PonchAxis posted:How many times have you seen Sanford pick something other than Sagat in SF4. He has played Oni in several tournaments.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 09:44
|
|
|
Oh, that was some bullshit, but Sanford has a ton of characters. Doesn't he have a Ryu, Gouken, and Cammy?
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 14:42
|
|
|
jackofarcades posted:Oh, that was some bullshit, but Sanford has a ton of characters. Doesn't he have a Ryu, Gouken, and Cammy? He clearly doesn't have a Balrog, at least.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 14:57
|
|
|
Honest Facts. Real Talk. they tried to pull one to see if we would enforce the rule. Long and short is I asked chris would he have picked yang if they werent splitting. he said no. end of story that triggers the exact loving rule. Sanford counterpicking chris is a valid counterpick...except NO ONE could vouch for sanford playing rog. People have seen and fought chris's pocket yang. the counterpick is what made poo poo really weird and it was just like gently caress you guys. so action was taken. Pot splits are nothing new. its when people make it obvious that they are splitting by playing a throwaway/super gimmicky match in grand finals is when people will take issue with the problem if it happens because teammmates meet in the 3rd round or something I doubt anyone will bat an eye but in grand finals? thats a giant gently caress you to everyone watching, entering, and running the event. Grow up. Play your poo poo...
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 16:39
|
|
|
It's mind boggling to me how stupid Chris G is. He pitches a fit about how there isn't enough money in the FGC and goes as far as saying he might not even attend EVO this year. Then he goes on Live on Three and bitches about it there. Then he does one of the most explicit things that people are saying prevents serious sponsorship from coming into the scene. He's one of the most outspoken about wanting more money in the FGC and he's in the perfect position to help inject more money into the scene simply by playing his game and not being an rear end. Yet he refuses to do either of these things.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 17:09
|
|
|
AkumaHokoru posted:Honest Facts. Real Talk. It was pretty goddamned obvious they just wanted to test it, I can't believe they had the audacity to try and lie their way out of it.. smh What the hell would this have achieved other than feed their egos? I don't think they realize the whole anti-collusion thing has been around at EVO for-loving-ever thanks to the players themselves forcing the rule to be set and they treat it like it's some recent, shady rule to abuse the players. apple fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Aug 1, 2013 |
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 17:13
|
|
|
swmmrmanshen posted:Thus, the need for an explicitly clear rule set. There's only so much that can be done. Even if you character lock or team lock every single tournament, there's nothing stopping the players in GF from non-stop taunting and only doing jump-ins or using one-button gimmicks or something like that. If the players want to act like petulant children they will act like petulant children no matter what. The only thing you can do at that point is suspend or ban specific players for a number of weeks, and that opens up a whole other can of worms. Some people in the FGC really just need to grow up. That's all there is to it.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 17:45
|
|
|
drat, I had the stream on mute last night, I can't believe I missed Spooky blowing up. Props to him keeping his stream legit.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 17:48
|
|
|
swmmrmanshen posted:Thus, the need for an explicitly clear rule set. "Don't be a bunch of jerkoffs" is clear enough, in my opinion. A super-specific set of rules will just result in semantic arguments and loopholes. Letting it fall under a more general "sportsmanship" rule is the best solution.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 18:01
|
|
|
Elephant Ambush posted:There's only so much that can be done. Even if you character lock or team lock every single tournament, there's nothing stopping the players in GF from non-stop taunting and only doing jump-ins or using one-button gimmicks or something like that. If the players want to act like petulant children they will act like petulant children no matter what. The only thing you can do at that point is suspend or ban specific players for a number of weeks, and that opens up a whole other can of worms. That's when you take them off stream and cut them out of the pot. That poo poo will stop real quick when it means they are not getting money or views. Mechafunkzilla posted:"Don't be a bunch of jerkoffs" is clear enough, in my opinion. A super-specific set of rules will just result in semantic arguments and loopholes. Letting it fall under a more general "sportsmanship" rule is the best solution. Some of these guys need to build some good will before they expect leniency.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 18:06
|
|
|
Yeah. Right now these fighters need to show they are worth giving them the benefit of the doubt (let alone anymore outside money) before people are going to start believing their bullshit reasons for doing dumb poo poo on stream. As for the counter argument that a place like NLBC is a good place to try new things (that I have seen some people make)? Ehhh, kind of bullshit again. You can do your own money matches, grudge match first-to-Xs, house group streams, personal streams and just plain personal, private play, to try new poo poo. If you NEED that tournament intensity to play 100%, then do a money match. They probably wouldn't want to though, because then it is THEIR money they'd be putting on the line. Don't gently caress around with other people's events, where other people's time and money is being spent. So simple. There are plenty of places to try new stuff, just do not do it at weeklies, regionals, or majors, especially in the damned finals.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 18:26
|
|
|
sponsz posted:I don't know too much about the top fighting game players, but I know a lot of people in the Magic: the Gathering pro community, where all the top players split every tournament. The difference seems to be that concessions aren't seen as such a horrible thing, which helps prevent BS matches, and the top players in that, unlike pro FGC players know when to play out matches instead of sandbagging. I'm not sure if that's because most splits aren't 50/50, but like 15 or 20 percent, but they seem to know that in the top8 you play the matches even if you have a split. Yup, I play MtG competitively and I've happily split or conceded a match to a friend. A lot of times before the cut to top 8 we look at standings to see if it's beneficial to intentionally draw or concede to a friend and guarantee a spot. This works because we use a swiss points system instead of double elimination before the top8. The difference is that the FGC is much easier to stream so a ton of local weeklies get put up whereas small stores are only beginning to record MtG matches in 2013. We don't have to worry about actually playing out our matches, but we also have the DCI rules enforcement to prevent collusion. Bigger events do get streamed but the top 8 pretty much never get split as it's generally pretty rare for someone on the same team to meet in the finals. The problem with throwing a match in the FGC seems to mostly be the level of maturity. People are going out of their way to stream your match, and stream monsters want to watch and be entertained. If they make a joke out of the grand finals why should I tune in next time? Agree to split, just don't be a goddamn jerk.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 18:26
|
|
|
Trihugger posted:It's mind boggling to me how stupid Chris G is. He pitches a fit about how there isn't enough money in the FGC and goes as far as saying he might not even attend EVO this year. Then he goes on Live on Three and bitches about it there. Then he does one of the most explicit things that people are saying prevents serious sponsorship from coming into the scene. He's one of the most outspoken about wanting more money in the FGC and he's in the perfect position to help inject more money into the scene simply by playing his game and not being an rear end. Yet he refuses to do either of these things. I was gonna post pretty much the same thing. He really needs to grow the gently caress up.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 19:52
|
|
|
As self defeating and moronic as it is for the top players who want more money in the scene to act like they do, i'm incredibly tired of the people in this thread condoning the rule and the actions of spooky last night. It's not up to the players to ensure that spooky remains in business by keeping people watching streams entertained, just because he essentially promotes them as celebrity players does not mean that they are complicit in that arrangement, nor does it mean that they agree that it's adequate compensation for doing what he wants. If you want to change the culture at the top end of the american scene then become part of the top end of the american scene, otherwise what right does anyone to tell them what to do in the finals of tournaments they've earned their way to? TOs should stop focussing on enforcing arbitrary rules (honestly any rule that relies that heavily on TO discretion and is being forced on every tournament is dumb as gently caress) and start focussing on making their events have enough prestige that people won't want to piss about, either through it being a major event, through personal relationships with the players or through innovative bonuses (like the Civil War swords and the UFGT trophies). As horribly gauche as it is to say there's a huge problem with entitlement and stream viewers, at first everyone laughs at the prospect and then as it grows poo poo gets all loving esports and doesn't just ruin the realness or whatever the gently caress you wanna call it, but loses competitive integrity slowly until we're left with a curated selection of players who will most likely entertain the audience covered in logos and having to adjust their behaviour for the sake of not offending anyone ever at all, except for the designated heel characters, so everyone involved in the production (including the players) can make a living from it. It's entirely natural for the people involved to want it, it's entirely inevitable and I entirely hate it. In conclusion, eat a bag of dicks.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 19:56
|
|
|
brian posted:If you want to change the culture at the top end of the american scene then become part of the top end of the american scene, otherwise what right does anyone to tell them what to do in the finals of tournaments they've earned their way to? They have every right. Hope this helps.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 20:04
|
|
|
Mr. Fun posted:They have every right. Hope this helps. What? How dare they try and keep their tournaments legitimate? And don't say sponsors, gently caress sponsors - people should just be running tourneys out of their own pocket forever, anyone who says otherwise has issues with entitlement. E: And if you don't agree with me you should suck a colostomy bag dry, that will show you who is right in this argument about esports
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 20:10
|
|
|
brian posted:Something. Its asking players not to make a obvious mockery of a 8 hr/1 day/2 day/3 day Multi City/State or International tournament. Not to make an obvious mockery of everyone who is watching/playing/running these tournaments. It isnt telling players they cant pick a side char or counterpick. Its telling players dont bullshit people. play a real match. If they split and they play a real match who is to know that they split? AkumaHokoru fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Aug 1, 2013 |
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 20:17
|
|
|
Maybe the players should run their own tournaments, then they won't have to worry about all these bullshit rules.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 20:19
|
|
|
brian posted:As self defeating and moronic as it is for the top players who want more money in the scene to act like they do, i'm incredibly tired of the people in this thread condoning the rule and the actions of spooky last night. It's not up to the players to ensure that spooky remains in business by keeping people watching streams entertained, just because he essentially promotes them as celebrity players does not mean that they are complicit in that arrangement, nor does it mean that they agree that it's adequate compensation for doing what he wants. If you want to change the culture at the top end of the american scene then become part of the top end of the american scene, otherwise what right does anyone to tell them what to do in the finals of tournaments they've earned their way to? TOs should stop focussing on enforcing arbitrary rules (honestly any rule that relies that heavily on TO discretion and is being forced on every tournament is dumb as gently caress) and start focussing on making their events have enough prestige that people won't want to piss about, either through it being a major event, through personal relationships with the players or through innovative bonuses (like the Civil War swords and the UFGT trophies). I wouldn't worry about it too much, judging from the fgc tweets most treat the collusion rule as a joke. If this happened at an event someone cares about (i.e. not VxG or NLBC) we might see a different reaction.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 20:19
|
|
|
I'm not sure why you think players have any more "right" to gently caress around and be idiots than the person running the tournament has to tell them not to. If you think people should be able to do whatever they want because the only conceivable alternative is some sanitized Starcraft II esports poo poo (false dichotomy), run your own tournament free of the suffocating confines of "arbitrary rules" and everyone can play Dan mirrors and distribute all their winnings evenly and no one will care about it and you'll be a freedom fighter for the FGC.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 20:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 23:08 |
|
|
Yeah man because we live in loving America and freedom and all that jazz. TOs have every right to be upset when players start disrespecting their tournaments. If top players don't like it, then they can boycott the event and go somewhere else or stay at home and stick to casuals. Respect is a two way street, my friend. As for the esports poo poo, that some imagination you have there. Obviously this is the only path the FGC can take. The SRK illuminati is real and they'll take your precious guns and religion away.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2013 20:24
|
|
