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Giodo! posted:Almost all young adult fiction that I've read focuses on a teenaged character coming of age and more or less dealing with the flawed world inherited from the previous generation. Not to say that it's the single defining trait or pre-requisite for the genre, just a common general plot descriptor. Thats definitely true though it's not a law, as you say. I'd say the most influential piece of young adult fantasy prior to Harry Potter (and really the rebirth of the genre, young adult or adult) was Dragonlance and the main characters in that series are all adults. (And then compare Dragonlance to Death Gate by the same authors - the latter definitely deals with more adult themes)
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Jul 27, 2013 06:24
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:I'd say the most influential piece of young adult fantasy prior to Harry Potter (and really the rebirth of the genre, young adult or adult) was Dragonlance
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Jul 27, 2013 21:53
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cultureulterior posted:Seriously? CS Lewis is obviously more influential but I guess I should have specified modern. There wasn't a ton of mainstream fantasy written until the mid 80s and I think you'll find that a lot of today's younger authors were introduced to the genre by Dragonlance. They're not well written by any means but they were bestsellers that revived the genre.
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Jul 28, 2013 02:01
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I'd probably put The Sword of Shannara above Dragonlance in terms of books that got kids hooked on fantasy in the 70s and 80s. Shannara has its own problems (namely being nearly identical to Lord of the Rings at the start) but that's a different issue from its range of influence, which is mighty. So... how about that Abercrombie guy? His writing is pretty rad.
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Jul 28, 2013 04:08
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oneof27 posted:Bayaz chat: Time and economic interference. Recognizing the relative weakness of his magic (compared to the power of nations, magic is not that strong in the series) he proceeds to set up a worldwide bank and a country just so he can throw his weight around.
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Jul 28, 2013 05:23
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Play posted:Time and economic interference. Recognizing the relative weakness of his magic (compared to the power of nations, magic is not that strong in the series) he proceeds to set up a worldwide bank and a country just so he can throw his weight around. I dunno, magic is pretty great for threatening kings and other powerful individuals.
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Jul 28, 2013 10:47
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wiegieman posted:I dunno, magic is pretty great for threatening kings and other powerful individuals. Who are in turn pretty great for the hundreds of thousands of subjects they control (and through your own threatening magic, you control them!) Were Bayaz just some powerful wizard bro I'm positive he would have met the same fate as his masters. Alone, what good did it do for them?
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Jul 30, 2013 02:02
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All this Bayaz chat makes me miss him more! Such a great villain. Actually have his own reasons for being an rear end in a top hat and is badass in all the right ways. He is my now favorite sorcerer-villain type.
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Jul 30, 2013 14:11
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For everything he's done, I still don't think of him as a villain, just very goal oriented.
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Jul 30, 2013 18:50
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He nuked a large population center and then proceeded to more or less laugh in the face of the person who wanted to build a hospital for those affected. You don't get much more villainous.
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Jul 30, 2013 19:19
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oneof27 posted:For everything he's done, I still don't think of him as a villain, just very goal oriented. But his goal is gently caress you, get mine with a healthy portion of genocide. That kinda seems like a badie.
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Jul 31, 2013 04:41
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The Puppy Bowl posted:But his goal is gently caress you, get mine with a healthy portion of genocide. That kinda seems like a badie. The only somewhat legit argument I've heard about him not being truly evil is that since he has transcended the rest of mortal humanity he is effectively a Greek-type rear end in a top hat god that does whatever he wants and is therefore above our notions of morality. Not that I agree with the argument, but any other arguments that try to justify his actions fall apart as soon as they are presented, whereas this one is at least debatable.
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Jul 31, 2013 05:38
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Bayaz is definitely a refreshing change from the sort of fantasy supervillain who doesn't have an agenda beyond BWAH HA HA I'M EVIL, but, short of, like, actual demons (and really, do we know anything about their agenda other than "get back into the world"?), he's almost certainly the (morally) worst person in the trilogy, and that's a role for which he has plenty of competition. He's the best sort of villain (which is to say, an interesting one), but that doesn't make him anything less.
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Jul 31, 2013 12:09
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So I just finished Red Country. 
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Aug 1, 2013 05:10
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docbeard posted:Bayaz is definitely a refreshing change from the sort of fantasy supervillain who doesn't have an agenda beyond BWAH HA HA I'M EVIL, but, short of, like, actual demons (and really, do we know anything about their agenda other than "get back into the world"?), he's almost certainly the (morally) worst person in the trilogy, and that's a role for which he has plenty of competition. He's the best sort of villain (which is to say, an interesting one), but that doesn't make him anything less. Which makes him a great villain because his very presence in the story presents despair and conflict. You can't have any hope for peace or freedom with Bayaz around and not because ABSTRACT EVIL but because he has ironclad motivations and the power and intelligence to carry them out.
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Aug 1, 2013 05:15
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What else are you going to do, root for the one who eats people?
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Aug 1, 2013 17:05
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Nevvy Z posted:What else are you going to do, root for the one who eats people? Try rooting for the people caught in the middle between the terrible, terrible power players.
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Aug 1, 2013 18:00
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Nevvy Z posted:What else are you going to do, root for the one who eats people? A lack of people to root for is sort of the point.
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Aug 1, 2013 19:35
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Its like life except somehow worse.
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Aug 1, 2013 20:12
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Abercrombie crafted a fantastic damned-if-you-do damned-if-you-don't Stalin vs. Hitler situation with Bayaz and his enemies. It's some great writing, especially compared to the typical passive evil overlord dreck. Also, wasn't Bayaz working as a butcher the first time we saw him? Talk about foreshadowing...
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Aug 1, 2013 20:23
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Yeah but even in that moment it initially seemed like he was characterizing him as a down to earth wizard of the people instead of your ivory tower all powerful academics. Its great the way that one can look back on the same scenes and get an an entirely different meaning from them on the read through.
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Aug 1, 2013 21:14
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The Puppy Bowl posted:Its like life except somehow worse. That what I love about Bayaz. His evil isn't the fantastical, never-happen-in-life, evil for the sake of evil. Instead, its the very realistic, uncaring evil of a megalomaniac who actually has the skill and capability of bending the world to his will. Bayaz is basically Stalin with superpowers.
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Aug 1, 2013 23:14
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It does feel like villain is too small a word I guess.
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Aug 1, 2013 23:38
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Mr.48 posted:That what I love about Bayaz. His evil isn't the fantastical, never-happen-in-life, evil for the sake of evil. Instead, its the very realistic, uncaring evil of a megalomaniac who actually has the skill and capability of bending the world to his will. Bayaz is basically Stalin with superpowers. Yeah, especially when you compare him to other "evil" characters. Like the antagonist from the Sword of Truth series... he made all of the red fruit in the world poisonous. For some reason. I was discussing SOT with a friend recently and that came up, and it just struck me as a ridiculous, cartoonishly evil thing to do. Like something Skeletor would try to do in a He-man cartoon.
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Aug 2, 2013 00:30
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Bayaz shows a ton of restraint. The only time we even see Bayaz harm many innocent people is when an army of superwizard cannibals breached the city walls and that was more indirect fire than anything else. Other than that we see him generally put up with people who antagonize him, handsomely reward people who will obey him, and even give his enemies a chance to cooperate. He's really more like a fantasy extension of a mob boss than a figure like Stalin or Hitler. He does really selfish poo poo to secure his own power and plans, so he's not a good guy. But he's not a force of chaos or evil either.
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Aug 2, 2013 00:56
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Above Our Own posted:The only time we even see Bayaz harm many innocent people is when an army of superwizard cannibals breached the city walls and that was more indirect fire than anything else. Edit: Not that a stupid vicious evil thug can't be well-written; Wyald from Berserk is one of my favorite villains ever. It's just that Bayaz is a totally different animal. Soulcleaver fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Aug 2, 2013 |
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Aug 2, 2013 01:49
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Above Our Own posted:Bayaz shows a ton of restraint. The only time we even see Bayaz harm many innocent people is when an army of superwizard cannibals breached the city walls and that was more indirect fire than anything else. Other than that we see him generally put up with people who antagonize him, handsomely reward people who will obey him, and even give his enemies a chance to cooperate. He's really more like a fantasy extension of a mob boss than a figure like Stalin or Hitler. There was also that time he led that army to war over ...something? That counts as harming many innocent people.
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Aug 2, 2013 01:51
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Someone said this like a month ago, but the true testament of how great Abercrombie writes his characters is that there are still people who refuse to believe that Bayaz isn't one of the singularly most evil characters in fantasy literature and actually try to defend and rationalize his actions.
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Aug 2, 2013 01:54
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 Cmon, how can anyone hate this guy? He's just a jolly lovable old grandfatherly wizard who wants to help the heroes on their quest. Right? Right??
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Aug 2, 2013 02:09
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I love this picture. Bayaz is such a jolly, bald old man  I really have to wonder if that was drawn before or after it was revealed Bayaz was a gigantic rear end in a top hat. If it's after, it's even better  Anyway, in DnD terms Bayaz is neutral evil. He doesn't do anything pointlessly cruel, but he will do cruel things if it furthers his goals, and shows no remorse for it. Just because he doesn't do that much evil in the actual books doesn't mean he's not evil. He'd burn down the world if he could rule the ashes. Sex Beef 2.0 fucked around with this message at 02:27 on Aug 2, 2013 |
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Aug 2, 2013 02:22
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TheWorldIsSquare posted:he doesn't do that much evil in the actual books Blew up a city Laughed when the 'king' suggested building the survivors a hospital Killed his girlfriend Treated his apprentice like poo poo
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Aug 2, 2013 03:04
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Grand Prize Winner posted:Blew up a city Yeah. Well, he doesn't do that much evil compared to the group of cannibal ninjas he's fighting (then again, we only have Bayaz's words for most of the bad stuff Khalul does.)
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Aug 2, 2013 03:27
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Also killed Juvens and blamed it on Kanedias. Whom he also killed. After killing his daughter.
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Aug 2, 2013 03:28
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Grand Prize Winner posted:Blew up a city 1. Legitimate concern. However, whether he was doing more evil than allowing the eaters to figuratively consume the city is not really known from what we see in the books. I'd say it's less evil than allowing the eaters to literally consume the city. 2. If you know they're dying, and you know a hospital won't save them, then why spend resources on it? Bayaz clearly has a good head for returns on investment. I don't think we know enough of the disease or whatever it is to make certain that hospital care would save even one person. Hospice care doesn't require a hospital. I do think Bayaz would have still laughed if Luthar had suggested hospice care instead, though. 3. He doesn't do this in the books, so I'm not sure why you're using it to refute someone's claim that he doesn't do that much evil [i]in the actual books[i]. (That's not to say that it isn't important, but we don't know the circumstances at all because Bayaz doesn't spill the beans and the only other people are there are dead.) 4. Well, he was kind of a poo poo apprentice. He even admits to Logen at the start that is a poor apprentice (something along the lines of being a poor seer, for not being able to find Logen before Logen found him). Until they left to go on their journey at the end of the first book, he clearly didn't care for what he was learning and was seemingly treated accordingly. Also, I don't know why this point is bold for emphasis when of the four things you posted, it's the least egregious offense in my eyes. That's not to see he's a bad dude, but I think that three of those four choices aren't great arguments to refute the person you quoted.
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Aug 2, 2013 03:44
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Soulcleaver posted:
I found a more accurate representation of him: 
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Aug 2, 2013 03:56
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It wasn't like the destruction of Adua was a last-ditch attempt to save the city from the Eaters. Rather than fighting directly, he sets off the fantasy equivalent of a nuclear bomb in the city simply because he wants to feel more powerful than Juvens and Kanedias. He laughs while he blows the city up and the 'cattle' die around him. His own apprentices are Eaters, so the opposition to the 'cannibals' doesn't even work. He also abandons Yulwei, the one person who actually seemed to be his friend rather than just an underling, to his fate in the House of the Maker... which is a fate Bayaz created by killing Tolomei.
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Aug 2, 2013 04:33
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The thing about the destruction of Adua/setting off the magi-nuke that sticks with me the most is how utterly pleased Bayaz was with doing it. Like, not some sort of sick, cartoon villain "Ha. HA! I did EVIL!!!" happy, but just ecstatic that he still has the power to set off magi-nukes. Bayaz loves power a whole bunch, but unlike many short-sighted, short-lived villains, Bayaz has time on his side (as has been pointed out above) and recognizes that few can really challenge him.
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Aug 2, 2013 04:46
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nutranurse posted:The thing about the destruction of Adua/setting off the magi-nuke that sticks with me the most is how utterly pleased Bayaz was with doing it. Like, not some sort of sick, cartoon villain "Ha. HA! I did EVIL!!!" happy, but just ecstatic that he still has the power to set off magi-nukes. Yeah, he definitely gets off on power. The way he acted in Heroes during the battles showed this too.
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Aug 2, 2013 05:00
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Note that I said evil "in the books". He undoubtedly has done tons of evil things, but in general he worked with the heroes throughout the books (though, of course, its increasingly debatable to what extant Logen and Jezal are heroes.) Sums up Bayaz really: Bayaz posted:"Hate me? The arrogance of you! To suppose that I might care. I, Bayaz, first apprentice of great Juvens! I, who threw down the Master Maker, who forged the Union, who destroyed the Hundred Words!" The Magus slowly lifted his foot and planted it on the side of Jezal's jaw. "I don't care whether you like me, fool." He ground Jezal's face into the vomit-spattered floor with his boot. "I care that you obey. And you will. Yes?" Abercrombie seems to have gotten more optimistic in Red Country, maybe the next trilogy will be about ending Bayaz's/Juven's endless squabbling? I hope so, really. I like the darkness of the setting but I don't think I can take another trilogy where everything is completely pointless and just a waste of lives because the war will go on regardless.
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Aug 2, 2013 05:02
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Red Country was hardly optimistic! I mean, maybe the encounter between Logan & Shivers at the end. Laying to rest old demons is a great step forward for Shivers, but Logan sure as heck did not seem to do the same. I do hope you're right though. Now that we know great war-machines like the Dragons are still about we have a possible opening for a third-party to challenge Bayaz/Khalul.
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Aug 2, 2013 05:15
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