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Bedlamdan posted:I remember hearing that this was because Chaos lost HARD. GW wanted a story about a narrow victory that was hard won. Going by stats, it would have been Huss and Valten beating Archaon to death through repeated bodyslams from opposite sides.
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Aug 9, 2013 01:08
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Zereth posted:If they wanted a story about something why did they leave it up to the playerbase through gameplay results? The cynical answer is that they both wanted to tell a story and get their customer/playerbase excited by the thought that they could influence said story without having any intention of actually letting the latter come to pass.
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Aug 9, 2013 01:56
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Zereth posted:If they wanted a story about something why did they leave it up to the playerbase through gameplay results? Kai Tave posted:The cynical answer is that they both wanted to tell a story and get their customer/playerbase excited by the thought that they could influence said story without having any intention of actually letting the latter come to pass. Pretty much. I think they were expecting that both sides were evenly matched enough that they could write whatever the hell they wanted after one side or another's narrow victory. This was really not the case, and to be honest if Chaos won then they would never get to keep milking the game.
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Aug 9, 2013 02:06
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Holy crap, guys. Check it out. A Next Q&A that's not ridiculous on any of its three answers. Are they really turning this ship around, or is this just a temporary lull before they return to grog apologia? http://community.wizards.com/dndnext/blog/2013/08/08/dd_next_qa:_fields_of_lore,_skills_and_average_hit_points e: I DON'T HATE NEXT RIGHT NOW WHAT IS HAPPENING TO ME?  (I mean, I'm actually planning to run a playtest with this packet and arguing with people on other boards who are just making GBS threads on it out of habit. How weird is that?)
dwarf74 fucked around with this message at 03:58 on Aug 9, 2013 |
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Aug 9, 2013 03:55
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Clear signs of a turn-around, that's for sure. I was bitching about the hit point averaging thing and it's nice to hear that was just an editing error. I'm going to be playing a bunch of Next at gencon next week so at least it won't be terrible.
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Aug 9, 2013 06:45
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Bedlamdan posted:Pretty much. I think they were expecting that both sides were evenly matched enough that they could write whatever the hell they wanted after one side or another's narrow victory. This was really not the case, and to be honest if Chaos won then they would never get to keep milking the game. The whole thing was just dumb. It was like one (admittedly popular) faction versus literally every other army in the game, in a system based around accumulating bulk victories. God knows what they thought was going to happen.
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Aug 9, 2013 14:05
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I can't get at the new Q&A article from work. What are the new points?
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Aug 9, 2013 14:23
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Where the hell were they hiding this game for the past twelve months?
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Aug 9, 2013 14:26
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Fuligin posted:The whole thing was just dumb. It was like one (admittedly popular) faction versus literally every other army in the game, in a system based around accumulating bulk victories. God knows what they thought was going to happen. So this could in theory work for Next, I just don't see it actually happening. Rulebook Heavily posted:Where the hell were they hiding this game for the past twelve months? time. Since launch, they've been secretly building a good, fun, balanced game behind closed doors. All this playtest nonsense was an elaborate smokescreen with two purposes:1) It allowed them to pump the grognards with "FEELS like D&D, not filthy balance!" with the absolutely horrendous balance of the game only backing this up. Then they quickly shove in the "real" game last minute, making it seem like a logical outgrowth of their grog-friendly "feels like D&D" meandering design method. The people who care more about balance than feel (4E players and people who play other games) are presented with a good, balanced, fun game at launch, which is all we really care about. 2) By going from "loving shitpile" to "actually a pretty good game" in such a short period of time, the massive jump in quality makes the final product look better than if it's just been from "ok game needs improvement". Bonus Monte Cooke was never fired, he's been working on this the entire time, safely insulated from the fanbase's influence.I'm obviously joking
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Aug 9, 2013 14:46
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dwarf74 posted:Holy crap, guys. Check it out. A Next Q&A that's not ridiculous on any of its three answers. Are they really turning this ship around, or is this just a temporary lull before they return to grog apologia? I'm waiting for the next packet before trying to run anything. There's still a lot of obvious work to do - but if they produced this a year ago I think I'd have been fairly happy with it.
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Aug 9, 2013 14:59
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Splicer posted:1) It allowed them to pump the grognards with "FEELS like D&D, not filthy balance!" with the absolutely horrendous balance of the game only backing this up. Then they quickly shove in the "real" game last minute, making it seem like a logical outgrowth of their grog-friendly "feels like D&D" meandering design method. The people who care more about balance than feel (4E players and people who play other games) are presented with a good, balanced, fun game at launch, which is all we really care about. Number one is actually a good plan. Cater to the people who care more about being catered to and make a good game for the people who care about that.
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Aug 9, 2013 16:17
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Except it's a bad plan, because it fucks off the people who actually wanted a good game in the first place, and panders to the people who wouldn't stop playing the old games they want the new one to be like if you plated the books in loving platinum. On another note, there's a 17th level playtest tonight, in approximately 4 hours http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/30036931/Livestream_Game:_The_Lich-Queens_Beloved - anyone up for joining me in the snarkchat like last time?
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Aug 9, 2013 18:10
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thespaceinvader posted:Except it's a bad plan, because it fucks off the people who actually wanted a good game in the first place, and panders to the people who wouldn't stop playing the old games they want the new one to be like if you plated the books in loving platinum.
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Aug 9, 2013 18:17
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thespaceinvader posted:Except it's a bad plan, because it fucks off the people who actually wanted a good game in the first place, and panders to the people who wouldn't stop playing the old games they want the new one to be like if you plated the books in loving platinum. If I can make it sure.
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Aug 9, 2013 18:26
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Nessus posted:I would suspect that the audience for their final product is at least somewhat wider than the audience for their playtest rules. Eh. It's one of those things that sounds like a good idea, like a have your cake and eat it too kinda thing, but instead what ends up happening is exactly what he described. You also end up with all the semi-nerdy-but-not-constantly-online people with the hardcore ttrpg friends who end up deciding that the game isn't for them because their friend's been grumbling about it sounding dumb the whole time. You also also end up with the same situation but the hardcore friend is the dm. Like yeah it maybe does a little better at grabbing the core audience until they decide that the game is too "4e" or whatever, but it's also going to scare off anyone who catches rumors and hearsay.
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Aug 9, 2013 18:46
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neonchameleon posted:I'm waiting for the next packet before trying to run anything. There's still a lot of obvious work to do - but if they produced this a year ago I think I'd have been fairly happy with it.
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Aug 9, 2013 18:54
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I say this having not checked out the DC stuff, but could the too-high DCs be softened by keeping them but doing a fail-forward thing? I like the idea of it being pretty hard to do a Heroic Thing without consequences. I'm hoping that fail forward will be rolled into the rules proper. I know as a DM I don't really feel right bringing up complications when 4E characters smash the DC (which happens all the time if I'm trying at all to follow the guidelines), so if Next has harder DCs and then codifies failing forward I'd be pleased as punch. This also means the DM has to think up interesting ways to fail forward which can be difficult, but not prohibitively so in my opinion. For knowledge checks, two truths and a lie is a good fallback in my experience.
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Aug 9, 2013 19:43
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Achmed Jones posted:I know as a DM I don't really feel right bringing up complications when 4E characters smash the DC (which happens all the time if I'm trying at all to follow the guidelines), so if Next has harder DCs and then codifies failing forward I'd be pleased as punch. Yeah, I find I pretty much always use the Hard DCs in 4e; TBH it's often times a matter of "should I even ask for a roll?" and the question that follows that question is, "is the person who's good at [SKILL] absent from this session?"
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Aug 9, 2013 19:49
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Honestly, I'd probably just rip Backgrounds from 13th Age or use the cool Warhammer Fantasy 3e dice in place of any skill system and run with the combat system roughly as-is if I wanted to play Next. I do the WHFRP 3e thing for a lot of games with boring skill systems though, they're basically system independent. Two good symbols and a complication symbol? Okay, you walk across the tightrope but you notice it's looking awfully frayed near the middle - you don't think you'll be able to make it back across, and you'll have to find a different way to get back. Bad symbols but a boon? The prime minister's not buying your story and he'd have you jailed, but the visiting king from a foreign nation steps in and champions your cause. You aren't going to jail, thankfully, but people now have reason to suspect your loyalty to the throne.
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Aug 9, 2013 20:02
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thespaceinvader posted:On another note, there's a 17th level playtest tonight, in approximately 4 hours http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/30036931/Livestream_Game:_The_Lich-Queens_Beloved - anyone up for joining me in the snarkchat like last time? e: Nevermind, found it. e2: vvvvv Sorry, I was looking for the IRC channel. ImpactVector fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Aug 9, 2013 |
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Aug 9, 2013 21:54
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It's linked from the thread I linked, but it's http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4dnd/livestreamLQB or http://www.twitch.tv/wotc_dnd?utm_campaign=live_embed_click&utm_source=www.wizards.com
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Aug 9, 2013 22:11
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How did the playtest go? Missed the stream, but I imagine it'll be up eventually.
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Aug 10, 2013 01:42
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It was really boring and they barely interacted with the mechanics and got some of the rules wrong.
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Aug 10, 2013 01:53
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Mikan posted:It was really boring and they barely interacted with the mechanics and got some of the rules wrong. But what about the walls?
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Aug 10, 2013 01:57
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No wallchat at all. I was sad about that. Mearls did basically try to control the game though, as a player. He comes across, both as a DM and a player, to me as just the sort of blocking grognardical dick I hate playing alongside. And he's the team manager, not actually a designer himself, which kinda goes some way to explaining how he keeps getting everything wrong. He also failed to do the preparation the DM had asked for him to do. He does just come across worse and worse in every one of these videos. The game, once they actually got to the mechanics, was actually OK. No better than any of half a dozen other retclones, but not obnoxiously lovely any more.
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Aug 10, 2013 09:23
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They haven't even gotten inside the dungeon the adventure features yet, have they? 60 minutes of talking out the setup for the adventure. That kind of hurt to listen to.
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Aug 10, 2013 11:44
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Nope, they ambushed a party of gith carrying a prisoner with the aim of impersonating them (I think they're under some manner of seeming spell), and did it successfully with little description and lots of die rolling, but no minis or map so the whole thing was basically the worst of both worlds (all the dry numbers of 4e, all the confusion over WTF is going on of ToTM), and at this point I think they're interrogating the prisoner. Very little of actual interest happened.
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Aug 10, 2013 11:48
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I got Murder in Baldur's Gate and my guess as to how the PCs get to affect the Sundering was pretty spot on. Their choices determine which of three different antagonists or a PC becomes Bhaal's new chosen. (Unbeknownst to the PCs, Bhaal is reborn during the adventure's first scene.)
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Aug 10, 2013 23:02
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PeterWeller posted:I got Murder in Baldur's Gate and my guess as to how the PCs get to affect the Sundering was pretty spot on. Their choices determine which of three different antagonists or a PC becomes Bhaal's new chosen. (Unbeknownst to the PCs, Bhaal is reborn during the adventure's first scene.) They probably won't allow us to kill Elminster either. 
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Aug 10, 2013 23:56
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isndl posted:They probably won't allow us to kill Elminster either. It's only for characters from 1st to 3rd level.  E: On a serious note, going after Elminster is making him a bigger part of your campaign than he has been in any I've played or run. PeterWeller fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Aug 11, 2013 |
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Aug 11, 2013 00:03
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isndl posted:They probably won't allow us to kill Elminster either. Remember, the new metaplot hasn't come into effect yet. He's still the lovely washed up has been we loved from 4E, not the god-being he was and will be again. This is our last chance. We can do this. Man, I wish I was being serious 
Splicer fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Aug 11, 2013 |
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Aug 11, 2013 00:04
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PeterWeller posted:I got Murder in Baldur's Gate and my guess as to how the PCs get to affect the Sundering was pretty spot on. Their choices determine which of three different antagonists or a PC becomes Bhaal's new chosen. (Unbeknownst to the PCs, Bhaal is reborn during the adventure's first scene.) I have mixed feelings about that. What other setting changes are on the horizon? Bedlamdan fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Aug 11, 2013 |
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Aug 11, 2013 00:11
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Bedlamdan posted:I have mixed feelings about that. What other setting changes are on the horizon? Technically, Drizzt is coming back too.  The Sundering will, ahem, sunder Abeir from Toril once more, presumably restoring much of the old map. It revolves around Ao rewriting the Tablets of Fate and the gods empowering their chosen to get their way when he does. Basically, the Sundering will end with a version of FR that looks more like older versions, probably a greatest hits instead of focusing on a single specific era. In Bhaal's case, he is reborn when the last unknown Bhaalspawn kills Abdel Adrian (the canon hero of the BG games) and is then killed the PCs. He's still weak after his rebirth, so he begins looking for a good person to choose to be his, ahem, chosen. I'm on board with it because I dug him in the Moonshae novels, it signals the greatest hits version of the setting, and I like for my RSEs to call back to earlier plots (which was one of my favorite things about the Spell Plague metaplot).
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Aug 11, 2013 00:30
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PeterWeller posted:Technically, Drizzt is coming back too.
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Aug 11, 2013 00:31
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I still can't get over the idea that Abdel Adrian is canon.
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Aug 11, 2013 01:37
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LightWarden posted:I still can't get over the idea that Abdel Adrian is canon. The game is canon, and they had to pick someone, so they picked the guy from the novel. I always read Abdel Adrian as [insert my character from my last play through].
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Aug 11, 2013 01:51
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Well, despite my dislike for the Realms, I ordered Murder in Baldur's Gate on a whim. I'll make it my group's playtest, I guess. They do like the Realms, so I'll pinch my nose. One thing that needs to die in a fire (again) is the "As the spell" laziness in monster blocks. gently caress that right in the ear. I don't want to go back to the bad old days of having to keep an SRD or some nonsense open in order to run monsters.
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Aug 11, 2013 03:51
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dwarf74 posted:One thing that needs to die in a fire (again) is the "As the spell" laziness in monster blocks. gently caress that right in the ear. I don't want to go back to the bad old days of having to keep an SRD or some nonsense open in order to run monsters. When I was in High School, I ran a game of 3rd edition for my friends, but I didn't really know what I was doing. I hadn't read the monster entries closely, and I was assuming that all the information I needed to run the monster was included in them. Realizing I was going to have to hunt through other books to run an encounter in the middle of an encounter was one of the most frustrating things about that whole ordeal. Running that game is to this day the only thing to ever give me a migraine headache.
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Aug 11, 2013 07:20
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Judas Iscaredycat posted:When I was in High School, I ran a game of 3rd edition for my friends, but I didn't really know what I was doing. I hadn't read the monster entries closely, and I was assuming that all the information I needed to run the monster was included in them. Realizing I was going to have to hunt through other books to run an encounter in the middle of an encounter was one of the most frustrating things about that whole ordeal. Running that game is to this day the only thing to ever give me a migraine headache. For all that 4e had many flaws, its monster design was a beautiful triumph.
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Aug 11, 2013 10:05
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sebmojo posted:For all that 4e had many flaws, its monster design was a beautiful triumph. Also I'm calling it now: This whole Encounters world reshaping will end with each player group watching a scripted battle between NPCs, probably including Elminster, while the PCs run around in the background killing small groups of cultists or goblins or something. They will be declared to have been "instrumental in the battle" because if they had failed to [verb] [noun] then the good NPCs would have failed. It will be impossible not to [verb] [noun]. e: It will intended for it to be impossible not to [verb] [noun], but in actual play it will turn out to be trivially easy and many groups will do so accidentally. This will be ignored ala early polls and the metaplot will advance as planned. Splicer fucked around with this message at 10:27 on Aug 11, 2013 |
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Aug 11, 2013 10:22
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