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Krabkolash posted:From The Needs of the Few from that terrible kickstarter I'm absolutely shocked that someone would go out of their way to contribute to a series of controversial games and wouldn't even understand or try to accurately portray the concepts the game is about. Like it wasn't already obvious that this stuff is creatively bankrupt pablum meant to incite emotional responses with no substance, here you go. Here's the direct evidence.
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Aug 9, 2013 16:45
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| # ? May 8, 2024 16:44 |
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Moving a discussion over from the Crowdfunding Megathread: Why did the guy get kicked off of Inverse World when he's only doing layout (i.e. not any of the actual questionable content) for Misery Index?
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Aug 9, 2013 21:09
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Because the people running Inverse World don't want to be associated in any way with the Misery Index, layout guy seems to understand and all is cool, no "kicking off" about it. e: all is cool between the principals
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Aug 9, 2013 21:14
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That's been answered pretty clearly in statements from both parties, too. I'm not sure what the disconnect is.
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Aug 9, 2013 21:18
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The same reason I wouldn't let a Max Hardcore cameraman shoot my wedding, no matter how talented. (I'm assuming that the cameramen don't do any of the despicable stuff that goes on in those videos. If this is incorrect, replace it with "lighting manager" or whatever.)
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Aug 9, 2013 21:19
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I'm totally ignorant as to how integral a layout guy is to a project, so that does seem odd to me. Because it's me, that guy, who shows up and starts kicking over furniture whenever Carcosa is mentioned, but I like Rich Longmore's art and wouldn't want to see him lose work due to the association.
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Aug 9, 2013 21:22
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moths posted:That's been answered pretty clearly in statements from both parties, too. I'm not sure what the disconnect is. The statement I kept seeing was just "We don't want Misery Index associated with Inverse World", which is all well and good and the prerogative of the Inverse World guys, but the person who's stretch goal got rejiggered around isn't an author on Misery Index, just a layout guy. The content in Misery Index that people are objecting to wasn't created by the layout guy.
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Aug 9, 2013 21:23
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jivjov posted:The content in Misery Index that people are objecting to wasn't created by the layout guy. Do you understand what the word "association" means?
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Aug 9, 2013 21:25
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It seems perfectly consistent to me. If you believe that something like Misery Tourism is vile and has no right to exist, then it seems to me like you ought to reject someone who is essentially aiding and abetting its existence, even if it's just the layout guy. vvv Human beings reject other human beings by association all the time even if that association is not remotely relevant to the situation at hand, I'm not sure what you find so unusual or hard to understand about this. JerryLee fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Aug 9, 2013 |
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Aug 9, 2013 21:25
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Flaky Biscuit posted:Do you understand what the word "association" means? Yes I do. But it also stands to reason that anyone who's going to be looking closely enough to see "Oh hey, the author of this stretch goal document is the same guy as the layout guy on Misery Index" will be cognizant enough to realize that the layout guy is not responsible for the content of Misery Index. The association would not be made with the content of Misery Index.
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Aug 9, 2013 21:30
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Some of the games seemed, at first glance, like they might be genuinely mature and not lurid trash, but the prurient intent shined through when I read the PDFs. A storytelling game where the crew of a starship is haunted by the ghost of a captain who abused all of them in some way--okay. Then the text basically says "Maybe the captain raped you, or if you're a dude and the captain's a chick, maybe she just grabbed your junk." Everything comes back to rape with these guys, this is no Changeling: the Lost.
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Aug 9, 2013 21:31
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jivjov posted:Yes I do. But it also stands to reason that anyone who's going to be looking closely enough to see "Oh hey, the author of this stretch goal document is the same guy as the layout guy on Misery Index" will be cognizant enough to realize that the layout guy is not responsible for the content of Misery Index. This is the third time you have said that. MINI MOD CHALLENGE You are required to make an actual argument within the next hour that is not fishing for arguments or pointless devils advocate bullshit. This is not optional. You are required to take an actual position and advocate an actual stance. I don't care what it is, but if you just repeat this general statement a fourth time, I am going to ban you.
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Aug 9, 2013 21:32
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Clock starts now.
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Aug 9, 2013 21:33
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jivjov posted:Yes I do. But it also stands to reason that anyone who's going to be looking closely enough to see "Oh hey, the author of this stretch goal document is the same guy as the layout guy on Misery Index" will be cognizant enough to realize that the layout guy is not responsible for the content of Misery Index. I don't suppose it occurred to you that it isn't about what other people think? That it isn't at all about other people cross-referencing staff? That it might actually be because Gnome/Mikan just don't want to be professionally associated-- even tangentially-- with the Misery Index because they personally think it's deplorable?
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Aug 9, 2013 21:34
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jivjov posted:The association would not be made with the content of Misery Index. Well, at least now you've shown that you don't understand what association means. Having him on would associate their project with "Misery Index", the concept - the product as a unit; it doesn't matter how peripheral a connection, it's still distasteful, and it's a rational step to avoid it.
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Aug 9, 2013 21:36
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jivjov posted:Yes I do. But it also stands to reason that anyone who's going to be looking closely enough to see "Oh hey, the author of this stretch goal document is the same guy as the layout guy on Misery Index" will be cognizant enough to realize that the layout guy is not responsible for the content of Misery Index. It's a moral stance, not an issue of being afraid that someone might get confused.
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Aug 9, 2013 21:38
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jivjov posted:Moving a discussion over from the Crowdfunding Megathread: I'm only addressing this now because for the first time in three days I didn't wake up to abuse and harassment about the decision. (Granted I also can't believe I have to defend the decision not to be involved with the Misery Index but this is the RPG industry, so.) Otherwise I would ignore this like I have a lot of the other questions. I don't think Jonathan Walton is a bad guy. I think he's making a poor choice here, but that's his choice to make. Whatever. That said, he's still professionally involved with a project I want nothing to do with. He's still actively involved in the process to make something I think is entirely without merit. That's not an association I want. Not for Inverse World, not for my company, and most emphatically not for myself. The actions I take as a company are no different from the actions I take as an individual, and anything I do as part of Funhaver Games is a direct reflection on me as a person. I make every RPG business decision from that standpoint. I only do things I'd be comfortable attaching my identity to. jivjov posted:The statement I kept seeing was just "We don't want Misery Index associated with Inverse World", which is all well and good and the prerogative of the Inverse World guys, but the person who's stretch goal got rejiggered around isn't an author on Misery Index, just a layout guy. The content in Misery Index that people are objecting to wasn't created by the layout guy. Do you not understand the concept of association? He's supporting an effort to make the book physically exist. Good for him, I can't stop him from doing it - but I don't want to be a part of it, even tangentially. jivjov posted:Yes I do. But it also stands to reason that anyone who's going to be looking closely enough to see "Oh hey, the author of this stretch goal document is the same guy as the layout guy on Misery Index" will be cognizant enough to realize that the layout guy is not responsible for the content of Misery Index. This has nothing to do with what other people think. I don't make decisions based on public perception. I wanted to end the association because I think the Misery Index is a juvenile, lazy attempt to address real-world reprehensible situations by a couple of folks who are so busy acting enlightened for "starting a discussion" they forgot to actually make a point or create something worth addressing or consider the feelings of people affected by these things, and because I'm not comfortable with being personally associated with it. Even if it's "just" a layout guy. I know it's a small step and there are other injustices in the world and blah blah blah but I can only work with the tools I have and what's available to me.
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Aug 9, 2013 21:46
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A fair enough response, I was just interested in the logic behind the decision. It turns out we're approaching "association" from different viewpoints. Winson, as I said in my PM, that was my stance. I don't understand how I was "fishing for arguments" and being a "pointless devil's advocate". I had a question, I did my best to approach it in a calm manner and make my point as best as I could. The person to whom I originally wanted to pose my question weighed in and now I understand his (her? I'm not positive) side of things, so I'm perfectly content to drop the matter here.
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Aug 9, 2013 21:52
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jivjov posted:I'm perfectly content to drop the matter here. Not sure you understand how mod challenges work, bub. Winson gave you a goal and you still haven't met it.
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Aug 9, 2013 21:58
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Halloween Jack posted:Some of the games seemed, at first glance, like they might be genuinely mature and not lurid trash, but the prurient intent shined through when I read the PDFs. A storytelling game where the crew of a starship is haunted by the ghost of a captain who abused all of them in some way--okay. Then the text basically says "Maybe the captain raped you, or if you're a dude and the captain's a chick, maybe she just grabbed your junk." Everything comes back to rape with these guys, this is no Changeling: the Lost. Yeah, for anyone wondering if the other games are any better, save yourself the effort. The sword rape might be the worst of the bunch but none of the ones that I looked at made any effort at nuance. They all seem designed to make you feel uncomfortable and use the most controversial language. It is possible to make games that make people uncomfortable AND have a point. These seem to ignore every opportunity to introduce nuance and instead just crank up the horribleness. What's worse than a game where you play out a rape? One about raping with a sword.
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Aug 9, 2013 22:00
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jivjov posted:A fair enough response, I was just interested in the logic behind the decision. It turns out we're approaching "association" from different viewpoints. Nope, you posted the same nearly identical question three times running, you need to take a position on something and defend it. We don't abide cowards in TG, so no retreating!
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Aug 9, 2013 22:01
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 edit: 
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Aug 9, 2013 22:01
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Flaky Biscuit posted:Not sure you understand how mod challenges work, bub. Winson gave you a goal and you still haven't met it. I've never heard of a mod challenge before now, so I don't know what the accepted protocol is. I framed my point to the best of my ability, my original question to the Inverse World team was answered by them. I seriously, 100% to the best of my knowledge was not "fishing for arguments" or attempting to be a "pointless devil's advocate", and have no other way to express my stance than what I've already done. Winson_Paine posted:Nope, you posted the same nearly identical question three times running, you need to take a position on something and defend it. We don't abide cowards in TG, so no retreating! The only position I can take is that every single person on this green earth has done some manner of "bad thing". Be it stealing a candy bar, saying something rude to a cashier, or doing layout work on a questionable RPG product. Telling someone "I don't like this project you're doing layout for, so you can no longer work on Inverse World or any other project my company makes" seems harsh to me; if doing something you find objectionable is such a black mark and makes someone unfit to be a co-worker/co-collaborator/whatever, you'll quickly find yourself out of co-workers. jivjov fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Aug 9, 2013 |
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Aug 9, 2013 22:02
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jivjov posted:I've never heard of a mod challenge before now, so I don't know what the accepted protocol is. I framed my point to the best of my ability, my original question to the Inverse World team was answered by them. you do what you're told to do you or 
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Aug 9, 2013 22:04
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jivjov how old are you?
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Aug 9, 2013 22:04
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jivjov posted:I've never heard of a mod challenge before now, so I don't know what the accepted protocol is. I framed my point to the best of my ability, my original question to the Inverse World team was answered by them. I read that the first time you posted it, and the time you PMed it to me. Clock is still ticking.
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Aug 9, 2013 22:06
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Captain Foo posted:jivjov how old are you? Not sure why it matters, but I'm 23. Winson_Paine posted:I read that the first time you posted it, and the time you PMed it to me. Clock is still ticking. I edited something in at the bottom of my last post. Not sure if it meets your criteria of "taking a stance" but it's what I've got.
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Aug 9, 2013 22:06
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jivjov posted:The only position I can take is that every single person on this green earth has done some manner of "bad thing". Be it stealing a candy bar, saying something rude to a cashier, or doing layout work on a questionable RPG product. Telling someone "I don't like this project you're doing layout for, so you can no longer work on Inverse World or any other project my company makes" seems harsh to me; if doing something you find objectionable is such a black mark and makes someone unfit to be a co-worker/co-collaborator/whatever, you'll quickly find yourself out of co-workers. Why is it harsh, why do you find this unreasonable? We are going to make a good poster out of you yet. CLOCK SUSPENDED
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Aug 9, 2013 22:07
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edit: Oh poo poo he actually did it nevermind.
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Aug 9, 2013 22:08
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Winson_Paine posted:Why is it harsh, why do you find this unreasonable? We are going to make a good poster out of you yet. I actually just arrived at work, if you would like me to, I will be glad to elaborate when my lunch break hits.
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Aug 9, 2013 22:08
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jivjov posted:I actually just arrived at work, if you would like me to, I will be glad to elaborate when my lunch break hits. Fair enough, CLOCK SUSPENDED.
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Aug 9, 2013 22:09
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jivjov posted:Not sure why it matters, but I'm 23. Just curious since you didn't seem to understand how the word "association" works.
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Aug 9, 2013 22:09
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jivjov posted:The only position I can take is that every single person on this green earth has done some manner of "bad thing". Be it stealing a candy bar, saying something rude to a cashier, or doing layout work on a questionable RPG product. Telling someone "I don't like this project you're doing layout for, so you can no longer work on Inverse World or any other project my company makes" seems harsh to me; if doing something you find objectionable is such a black mark and makes someone unfit to be a co-worker/co-collaborator/whatever, you'll quickly find yourself out of co-workers. That's how consequences work, though. If you steal a candy bar then maybe the cop who catches you will let you off with a stern warning, but on the other hand maybe you might still get in some actual trouble for shoplifting. You say something rude to a cashier and the manager might tell you to get the gently caress out and not come back. You work for an act-out-your-rape-fantasies game and other people might not want to associate with you. If you don't want to risk those consequences happening then guess what? You don't loving do those things. That's a choice you make. The reason I imagine that this is causing such cognitive dissonance inside your head is that it's really actually pretty rare for anyone in the elfgame "industry" to actually go "y'know what, this guy's game is completely loving terrible, I don't actually want to be associated with it in any way shape or form" and take the steps to distance themselves from it. And anyway, shoplifting and being rude to cashiers are sort of outside the point here. The point is this guy is working on a tabletop game, and the producers of another tabletop game don't want to be associated with that project. That's much more directly relevant to the question of "who do we want working on our own tabletop game?" than "well this guy's a lousy tipper."
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Aug 9, 2013 22:20
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Why do you consider rudeness to someone equivalentwith shoplifting a candy bar? Why do you consider either to be equivalent with assisting in the creation of games about rape or sexual abuse?
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Aug 9, 2013 22:30
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I don't see how it's harsh for two people to choose to not work with one person. Both sides in this have been very professional, there's clearly no hard feelings from either, it's the creepy, terrible, 'fans' causing the problems. There've been no demands for boycotts or shaming or whatever, and as much as I love Mikan's work he's not Big RPG blackballing him. Also let's be super clear here. Stealing a candy bar is a super minor thing that basically everyone has done. Helping design a childish 'dark and mature' book full of racist and misogynistic garbage isn't. No one is claiming this is his baby project, but he's a part of it, and Mikan doesn't want that project associated with his by any link at all.
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Aug 9, 2013 22:37
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jivjov posted:I've never heard of a mod challenge before now For your edification, there is literally a link to the SA encyclopaedia at the top of this and every single page on the SA forums. Here is the article for mod challenges: http://forums.somethingawful.com/dictionary.php?act=3&topicid=2202
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Aug 9, 2013 22:38
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Mors Rattus posted:Why do you consider rudeness to someone equivalentwith shoplifting a candy bar? Why do you consider either to be equivalent with assisting in the creation of games about rape or sexual abuse? I don't believe either of those was intended as an equivalency, only other examples of external consequence resulting from action. I don't particularly have a dog in this fight either way (Mikan/Gnome can have whoever they want do the layout), but I don't think Kai was intending that. I will say I don't really see it unreasonable to remove someone in their professional capacity for participating in other activities they are also doing in their professional capacity; it is the nature of freelance work to accrue a portfolio of projects. Those projects reflect the person that participated in them as well as the projects themselves. Comparing it to removing someone for being the wrong color or gender or whatever is a false comparison, in my estimation, because color/gender/whatever do not reflect a professional capacity. If someone doesn't want their project (in the specific) to be associated with another project (in the specific) in any way (which appears to be what is happening here) then I am fine with that. In fact, in some cases such a disassociation might be needed to prevent a conflict of interests. Beyond that, both parties seem amicable to dissolving their business partnership that they agreed to, and that they agreed to dissolve, so in a lot of ways I don't see how it is any of my fuckin' business how either of them spend their time. I ain't paying, after all.
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Aug 9, 2013 22:41
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Winson_Paine posted:I ain't paying, after all. What the hell, you didn't you back Inverse World?
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Aug 9, 2013 22:45
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Mikan posted:What the hell, you didn't you back Inverse World? Out of curiosity is there a way to now retroactively back Inverse World. I was on the fence at the time.
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Aug 9, 2013 22:49
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| # ? May 8, 2024 16:44 |
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We'll have it up for sale in October, but if anyone would like to get one of the backer tiers (like the personalized levels) or just wants to preorder we're taking those via paypal (funhavergames@gmail.com). The first pdf is going to go out soon, so preorders will get that as soon as they're released. Make sure to note what the paypal payment is for and make sure the address (for physical products) is the address you'll be located in for the month of October.
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Aug 9, 2013 22:54
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