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You say that, but I've also seen you completely ignore stuff that happens in the story if it will help your argument.
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Aug 10, 2013 03:58
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Justin_Brett posted:You say that, but I've also seen you completely ignore stuff that happens in the story if it will help your argument. I never do that. What reason would I have to do that?
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Aug 10, 2013 04:02
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I feel very sorry that super robot shows haven't custom tailored themselves to your incredibly vague and lovely definitions of what "good" writing and characterization is, random guy from 4chan.
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Aug 10, 2013 04:09
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Clever Spambot posted:I feel very sorry that super robot shows haven't custom tailored themselves to your incredibly vague and lovely definitions of what "good" writing and characterization is, random guy from 4chan. what's so vague and lovely about wanting heroes to not be morally repugnant, and wanting the plot to have more nuance than explosions, like transhumanism and a serious look at AI, as opposed to stuff like "Mad Scientist wants Good Scientists energy source to take over the world" or "Beast people hate humans because reasons."
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Aug 10, 2013 04:19
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Man that Kamina guy was so evil, putting ideas in Simon's head about believing in himself. ps sorry the world isn't always perfect and morally clear all the time
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Aug 10, 2013 04:19
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Hbomberguy posted:Man that Kamina guy was so evil, putting ideas in Simon's head about believing in himself. Kamina forced Simon into things, he hit him or threw rocks or made passive agressive statements when he didn't do what he wanted. Guy told Mamoru to believe in himself, too. But he and 3G gave him a CHOICE to help them, and he certainly didn't hit or throw rocks at him. In fact, the one time Guy had to be rough on him, it was shown to be a tragedy. Since well, who was believed to be Mamoru had sort of killed someone.
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Aug 10, 2013 04:22
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Clawshrimpy posted:Kamina forced Simon into things, he hit him or threw rocks or made passive agressive statements when he didn't do what he wanted. Are no protagonists, or as you call them 'heroes' ever allowed to be human beings with flaws and things that make them not entirely likeable, or can a show only be good and enjoyable if the character is some kind of perfect statuesque god of pure truth and justice? Can such a person even really exist in the world? Isn't killing the enemy always a little too violent, considering there might have been a way of reaching a diplomatic solution without having to get inside a giant robot and beat the crap out of it? I'm asking these questions not just because I'm interested in your answers, but because these are the questions the shows you think are bad are trying to explore and answer for themselves. This stupid discussion aside, a few friends (who may even BE IN THIS VERY THREAD) recently showed me Shin Mazinger Z and Bokurano, with an episode of each back-to-back with the other. Not only do I really like and recommend both shows, but I also recommend watching these two right next to each other. They complement each other perfectly. Hbomberguy fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Aug 10, 2013 |
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Aug 10, 2013 04:30
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So you want a nuanced tale lacking any moral ambiguity while also having overarching themes for smart people about how sick nasty it would be to have a robot body or a computer that can talk?
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Aug 10, 2013 04:31
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To be absolutely fair to Clawshrimpy, I agree with his assessment that Kamina was a jerk. A jerk with good intentions, but still a jerk. This does not somehow mean TTGL is a bad show or that Kamina is a bad character.
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Aug 10, 2013 04:33
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Clever Spambot posted:So you want a nuanced tale lacking any moral ambiguity while also having overarching themes for smart people about how sick nasty it would be to have a robot body or a computer that can talk? Not completely lacking moral ambiguity, but as far as the heroes are concerned, don't make the heroes look like the loving bad guys. GaoGaiGar did moral ambiguity very well, like the second episode of FINAL. THe reason it was so well done is because the "morally questionable" one (replicant Mamoru) wasn't really acting evil, and his justifications made perfect sense, in fact, he even sells that Pappilon was pretty just in the wrong place at the wrong time. And that one life is insignifigant to saving the universe. Of course, eventually the facade is eventually shattered, but it's very very convincing and well done. And the dramatic tension of the rest of the cast trying to stop him is just so thrilling, especially considering the 49 episodes of development Mamoru had gotten in the TV show being the good guy's close comrade and friend. Then you have shows where the "inspiring brotherly leader guy" goes around throwing rocks and punching and otherwise abusing the younger lead he's trying to inspire. And then leaves a traumatic fallout when said jerk dies 8 episodes in and the young lead goes through an abuser dependency complex, and eventually grows up to be an abuser later with how he treats the guy about to kill himself. Clawshrimpy fucked around with this message at 04:41 on Aug 10, 2013 |
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Aug 10, 2013 04:38
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GaoGaiGar owns but so do the things you rail against? The thing you seem to be forgetting is that things are going to be a lot "shinier" in GGG than TTGL or SMZ because GGG was aimed at kids. The first 22 episodes are a literal commercial they needed to air to pay for the rest of their anti-eva tale. The other shows were directly for adults, TTGL a bit less so but SMZ for sure. You a crazy man
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Aug 10, 2013 04:41
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Paper Lion posted:GaoGaiGar owns but so do the things you rail against? The thing you seem to be forgetting is that things are going to be a lot "shinier" in GGG than TTGL or SMZ because GGG was aimed at kids. The first 22 episodes are a literal commercial they needed to air to pay for the rest of their anti-eva tale. The other shows were directly for adults, TTGL a bit less so but SMZ for sure. I don't feel that holds a lot of water because there was plenty of really good development in the first 22 episodes that helps out with the bigger reveals later. For example, the episode where Guy goes into the Cloud Zonder and has the fever dream, or the various episodes dealing with Mamoru struggling to understand his powers (like the early episode where he contemplates with not taking his responsibility seriously.) And even the more episodic episodes were pretty drat well written at times, like the Zonder created from the kid who's parents were lost at sea, and goes around sending people to a limbo dimension because he felt lonely. There's probably more examples, too, like the "Hell and Heaven is killing Guy" subplot, but that's just off the top of my head. The Machine Kings arc isn't nearly as bad as people say it is. You just really need to pay attention to the dialogue scenes. Also, for being an "adult story" Shin Mazinger never seemed that deep or interesting to me. It's essentally a "Mad scientist tries to take over the world" plot with some vague inaccurate greek mythology, and even the better parts of the story are drowned out by the immature stuff like everything involving Kurogane House. But to be fair, SHin Mazinger being bad was kinda more because the source material wasn't really great anyway, since Go Nagai was always kind of a hack, so there wasn't a lot Imagawa could do to make something good out of that. There was no excuse for how bad TTGL is, though. Gainax just has a stupid obsession with their young main characters being in screwed up teamwork relationships that I just find unlikable and repugnant. Clawshrimpy fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Aug 10, 2013 |
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Aug 10, 2013 04:50
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Yeesh, I hate to jump in on this argument or whatever you want to call it but when you come to a thread titled "Super Robot Thread Z: PILDER ON! MAZIN GO!" and say things such as:Clawshrimpy posted:...Go Nagai was always kind of a hack... It seems that you're just here to stir up trouble and I think you should leave or just drop your argument because this is just a case of conflicting opinions. EDIT: Well, you certainly made a point that you're just here to cause trouble and have nothing really to add to this thread so shame on you! Lepecard fucked around with this message at 05:52 on Aug 10, 2013 |
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Aug 10, 2013 05:40
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Lepecard posted:Yeesh, I hate to jump in on this argument or whatever you want to call it but when you come to a thread titled "Super Robot Thread Z: PILDER ON! MAZIN GO!" and say things such as: It's just a thread title. Contrary to popular belief, Go Nagai is not the emperor of all things mecha. Super Robot didn't really improve from a storytelling standpoint until the 90s when the Brave Series showed up and the writing improved beyond the chessyness of the 70s (and even then only half of them were good, but GaoGaiGar was such a huge winner it doesn't really matter how bad Da Garn and Goldran were.) But even with GaoGaiGar's well done Story, TTGL, along with things like SHin Mazinger, the Gaiking remake, the Jeeg remake, etc. made sure everything would devolve to the half-assed cheesy writing and unlikable characters of the 70s. Edit; I'm not here to cause trouble, I honestly want to debate what I see as the decline of the Genre. Clawshrimpy fucked around with this message at 05:53 on Aug 10, 2013 |
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Aug 10, 2013 05:47
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So from your posts and reactions to you, it seems you've established a reputation for yourself as the Armond White of Super Robot shows.
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Aug 10, 2013 06:15
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I don't know what filter you're watching Da Garn under that makes it lovely, but I hope I never get it.
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Aug 10, 2013 06:26
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Justin_Brett posted:I don't know what filter you're watching Da Garn under that makes it lovely, but I hope I never get it. It's a really typical Brave show that unfortunately has a really unlikable lead who spends a long time in the early episodes being completely unlikable. He whines about the millitary like how Kamille does in Zeta Gundam for crying out loud. It just doesn't have the spark of good writing GaoGaiGar did.
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Aug 10, 2013 06:52
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I think you have poo poo totally backwards because clawshrimpy, it's sad this needs to be spelled out for you. Super robots are not about the writing! they are about seeing giant loving robot monsters beat the tar out of each other. The writing is not the goal here, and really it's icing on the cake. I watched GGG when I was a very small child, about 7 years old off of VHS tv recordings from Japan, and had the plot told to me by my friend's dad who just summarized (which made Mic Sounders own extra hard because I could actually understand what he was saying most of the time) and that show is still one of my favourites, even though a bunch of other robot shows he showed me around the same time are certainly not. It came down to it being pretty drat well animated and having interesting designs and lots of flashing seizure colours and all sorts of great poo poo that appealed to my child brain, and it all holds up as an adult. If you are watching a super robot show and nitpicking about the writing or the plot direction or anything like that then I'm sorry but you are honestly watching this genre of television in bad faith. It's like saying that soap operas are awful because of their bad writing and corny plots, when in reality that's most of the charm to them.
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Aug 10, 2013 07:06
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Paper Lion posted:I think you have poo poo totally backwards because clawshrimpy, it's sad this needs to be spelled out for you. But that doesn't make any sense, GaoGaiGar was so well written when I first experienced it that it seems silly to only like it for the action, when the story and characters was what made it so good. I wouldn't have a reason to nit-pick other Super Robot shows if GaoGaiGar's story and character evolution wasn't as well crafted as it was.
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Aug 10, 2013 07:11
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Clawshrimpy posted:It's a really typical Brave show that unfortunately has a really unlikable lead who spends a long time in the early episodes being completely unlikable. He whines about the millitary like how Kamille does in Zeta Gundam for crying out loud. It was written by the same guy though. And yeah, complaining when the military takes your rights away? What a whiner.
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Aug 10, 2013 07:17
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Saw the 30+ posts and thought they announced a new super robot anime. Come to see a new guy white knighting GGG harder then anyone I've ever seen. Guess I've been only reading SA for too long. Who is this clawshrimpy guy and why does he have such a hard on for GGG besides that he holds its story on a fine pedestal of golden marble? To contribute to the bantering. GGG was a fun series to watch but disqualifying every other super robot show as being terrible seems like a broad assumption. It really just sounds like you want a show about the "knight in shining armor" coming in to save the day with a side of giant robots and that any show that does have gleaming knight is not worth your time. Does that also mean that you consider shows like Voltes V, Zombot 3, Jeeg, Gunbuster, and Getter unworthy of praise for their works? Shows that make the heroes encounter choices that aren't always black and white and full of miracles.
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Aug 10, 2013 07:56
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Holy poo poo, I take back everything I ever said about Gurren Lagann fans being overly obsessive. I decided to go back to the OP and maybe start adding a few links to shows, some for torrents to dead licenses (VOTOMS mostly), and I'm trying to work on a list of shows that are licensed which you can buy on DVD/Blu-Ray at the moment. I am way out of the loop, because in the process of adding Gurren Lagann to the list, not only does Bandai Entertainment no longer print DVDs and stuff, but Aniplex now holds the license in the US, and they demand a shitload more money that Bandai ever asked for. I mean poo poo, I thought it was bad that the out-of-print Anime Legends release of Gurren Lagann was ridiculous. Also, apparently Media Blaster doesn't have the license for Golion anymore, so that's out-of-print, though DVDs seem to be still available. I mostly don't want to start linking torrents to things you can currently buy, and at the same time I want to link to things you can purchase with your monies, but not paying attention to most anime licensing and DVD/Blu-Ray availability is throwing me off pretty hard. I also added Godmars to the OP, tell me what you think. Mercury Crusader fucked around with this message at 08:23 on Aug 10, 2013 |
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Aug 10, 2013 08:20
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GaoGaiGar is probably my favorite mecha anime, and even I can't stand this Clawshrimpy person.Revolver Bunker posted:Who is this clawshrimpy guy and why does he have such a hard on for GGG besides that he holds its story on a fine pedestal of golden marble?
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Aug 10, 2013 09:29
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The only thing I have to say about this conversation is that everyone should watch Da Garn and check out just how awesome Seiji is. He's like the best little kid protagonist you'll ever get. Seriously, go watch Da Garn.
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Aug 10, 2013 10:03
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Looks like no one take about grendizer by Go Nagai. it is the best mecha i ever seen. the story and monsters were very unique, also it is connected to mazinger universe with common characters between both shows.
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Aug 10, 2013 12:09
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Clawshrimpy posted:But that doesn't make any sense, GaoGaiGar was so well written when I first experienced it that it seems silly to only like it for the action, when the story and characters was what made it so good. I wouldn't have a reason to nit-pick other Super Robot shows if GaoGaiGar's story and character evolution wasn't as well crafted as it was. Are there any other good mecha shows or is it really only gaogaigar? Because gaogaigar has so far been your only example of a good show at all. I need these recommendations. You seem to be an authority on good writing, since your tvtropes vanity page suddenly starts referring to you in the third person halfway through for no reason. Hbomberguy fucked around with this message at 12:54 on Aug 10, 2013 |
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Aug 10, 2013 12:49
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ImpAtom posted:The only thing I have to say about this conversation is that everyone should watch Da Garn and check out just how awesome Seiji is. He's like the best little kid protagonist you'll ever get. Seriously, go watch Da Garn. For what it's worth, I plan to once it finishes getting subbed. The main character being similar to Kamille is actually a pretty strong recommendation in my book.
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Aug 10, 2013 13:26
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Watching GaoGaiGar at the moment, it's pretty cool. Though the mid-series switch into an almost completely different story does oddly remind me of another super robot show... VVVV Big Bang Punch might be the most amazing moment in a show full of amazing moments. Sakurazuka fucked around with this message at 15:08 on Aug 10, 2013 |
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Aug 10, 2013 14:20
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Imagawa rules. I love his combination of really strong themes about the sins of our fathers/the past coming back to haunt us, and having to confront them before moving on to the future with his love of balls-out Kung fu action. His shows are always a pleasure to watch. G Gundam, Giant Robo, Tetsujin 28, and of course Shin Mazinger are all top-notch giant robot shows. Everybody, let's take a little time out of our day to appreciate Imagawa. A Shining Finger here or Big Bang Punch there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6pAdFOUDmw Mecha Gojira fucked around with this message at 15:03 on Aug 10, 2013 |
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Aug 10, 2013 14:55
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Revolver Bunker posted:Saw the 30+ posts and thought they announced a new super robot anime. Come to see a new guy white knighting GGG harder then anyone I've ever seen. Guess I've been only reading SA for too long. Who is this clawshrimpy guy and why does he have such a hard on for GGG besides that he holds its story on a fine pedestal of golden marble? moral ambiguity is okay if it's done well, like GGG FINAL's second episode. But there's a line that ends up crossed in a lot of mediocre/bad mecha anime where the heroes regularly become jerks or outright villainous that I really really don't like. 70's mecha anime was largely not good at all. Mostly because the stories were not interesting and the characters were kind of stereotypical. Even the overall plot was some play on "Mad scientist wants to take over the world." "Pissed off Dinosaurs want to make Humans extinct!" etc. and some of them, like Zambot 3, are incredibly morally repugnant where none of the "heroes" really are one. then the 90's came along and well written ones like GaoGaiGar, Raijin-Oh, Dagwon, and a few others showed us how well character development and story could be done in these shows. However, after that, those 70's remakes (Shin Mazinger, Kotetsushin Jeeg, Gaiking LODM, etc.) and TTGL made it, so instead of that good writing and character development, the polish instead went to explosions, and stripped the writing and characters down to how bad it was in the early days.
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Aug 10, 2013 15:14
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Look at this scrub who doesn't realize the thematic relevance of a house full of psychotic criminals and killers who were given a second chance by a woman who helped unleash unspeakable horrors upon our world trying to repent through fighting said evil. Also, this woman is at one point literally haunted by a ghost that represents her past.
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Aug 10, 2013 15:30
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Mecha Gojira posted:Look at this scrub who doesn't realize the thematic relevance of a house full of psychotic criminals and killers who were given a second chance by a woman who helped unleash unspeakable horrors upon our world trying to repent through fighting said evil. Also, this woman is at one point literally haunted by a ghost that represents her past. Everything about Kurogane in Shin Mazinger was just terrible, their presence usually meant stupid wacky hijinx and shenanigans that were not funny in the least. It also doesn't help that Imagawa is a really poo poo writer when compared to the likes of Yonetani and Takahashi. Imagawa can't even write an ending to save his life.
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Aug 10, 2013 15:43
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Clawshrimpy posted:Everything about Kurogane in Shin Mazinger was just terrible, their presence usually meant stupid wacky hijinx and shenanigans that were not funny in the least. Guess you missed G Gundam and Tetsujin 28, then. You know, where the dude flies off with the girl in his arms or the robot literally sacrifices itself for its human brother's future. By the way, Shin Mazinger ends the way it does because THAT'S HOW MAZINGER Z ENDS. Giant Robo ends the way it does because it's part of a larger story, and has a satisfying conclusion to its arc. By the way, don't get me wrong. I love Takahashi. VOTOMS and Layzner are awesome. But let's face it, Takahashi's been rehashing the same VOTOMS plot for 20 years. Did you not see the VOTOMS sequel OVA's? They're all 100% terrible. Yes, let's totally ruin Chirico's relatively happy ending by rehashing the same plots over and over again and milk his misery for all its worth. Edit: And you know what? gently caress it. Sorry that the comic relief wasn't your thing. Doesn't change the fact that they existed for other reasons than just wacky hijinx and explosions and have actual thematic relevance. Personally, I thought they were fun as hell on top of it! Mecha Gojira fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Aug 10, 2013 |
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Aug 10, 2013 15:49
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Clawshrimpy posted:Everything about Kurogane in Shin Mazinger was just terrible, their presence usually meant stupid wacky hijinx and shenanigans that were not funny in the least. Oh my god I wish VF was around. Seeing Clawshrimpy shitpost on Something Awful is one of the highlights of my day - no, my life. Also, how can you say that Imagawa 'can't write an ending to save his life' when all his series have had satisfying (yet open) endings?
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Aug 10, 2013 15:52
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Clawshrimpy posted:Imagawa can't even write an ending to save his life.  Especially the part where the power of love allows Domon and Rain to shoot off a Sekiha Tenkyoken that punches a heart shaped hole inside the Devil/Dark Gundam
Zeether fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Aug 10, 2013 |
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Aug 10, 2013 16:00
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Mecha Gojira posted:Guess you missed G Gundam and Tetsujin 28, then. You know, where the dude flies off with the girl in his arms or the robot literally sacrifices itself for its human brother's future. I am fully aware that VOTOMS was something that got played out, but Takahashi's work on GaoGaiGar and other stuff like Wataru was really his crowning acheivement, (his Super Robot work was way better than his Real stuff.) even though the other writers had to cover for him in FINAL. (which they still did a pretty drat good job.) G Gundam may of had a conclusive ending, but it wasn't well written to begin with, but then again, Gundam isn't even good as a franchise. ANd I didn't watch Tetsujin 28, because it's another one of those "Imagawa classic mecha revivals" and I thought it'd be just as bad as Shin Mazinger and Giant Robo was. Also, the "That's the way Mazinger Z ends" thing isn't much of an excuse, just because that hack Nagai did it, doesn't mean you can't attempt to make it better and improve on his mistakes.
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Aug 10, 2013 16:09
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Zeether posted:G Gundam's ending was awesome, I don't know what you're talking about. In fact, let's watch it again! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvq0Jw6J9Ao
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Aug 10, 2013 16:10
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So the only thing I've gotten out of this is that I should watch Imagawa's Tetsujin 28, is that right?
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Aug 10, 2013 16:14
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So if I'm understanding right, GaoGaiGar is the most well-written show in the history of existence because Gai is literally the personification of Lawful Good with no defining character flaws asides from "he is a cyborg and being a cyborg hurts I guess," while every other show is dogshit because they are basic "good versus evil" stories featuring protagonists who aren't Lawful Good with actual character flaws and potentially ambiguous morality on a case-by-case basis. Did I get this right? That's all I was able to gather from those posts, and it looks like I'm not going to get a real answer besides what has been repeating in the several posts he has made. Every single post Clawshrimpy has made can be distilled to these two sentences: - GaoGaiGar is the most well-written show ever made, trust me on this, I'm not going to expand on why I believe this is so. - Every other show is dogshit, trust me on this, everybody else is a hack and I'm not going to expand on why I believe this is so.
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Aug 10, 2013 16:15
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dbzfandiego posted:So the only thing I've gotten out of this is that I should watch Imagawa's Tetsujin 28, is that right? It's really dark and somber. Of Imagawa's works, I'd admittedly rate it the weakest. Unfortunately, all of the energy and playfulness you usually see in his works are burned up in the first couple minutes of the first episode and the rest of the series is a meditation on Japan's post-war, pre-boom time period. Expect a lot of tragic stories about scientists and their WWII creations.
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Aug 10, 2013 16:17
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