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fivegears4reverse posted:By deemphasizing, I mean that they've taken the WiiMote, which WAS the primary controller for the Wii, and they've made it an optional peripheral. Developers who are NOT Nintendo now don't have much reason to make a serious effort at accommodating the WiiMote control scheme because they they know FOR CERTAIN that everyone will have have a GamePad (and any control schemes using that can be easily transferred over to a Pro Controller because I doubt we're going to see exciting use of the touchscreen any time soon). Yeah, developers don't know for certain is if anyone has any extra controllers for any console, so why bother making multiplayer for any game at all? You're being incredibly pedantic, especially when I'd bet a large amount of money that the Wii Remote is the best selling controller of all time, seeing that they released a press release in 2010 saying they've sold over 63 MILLION Wii remotes.
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Aug 11, 2013 18:36
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The system doesn't de-emphasize Wiimotes but the default control method de-emphasizes motion control for sure. And Nintendo's games are going away from the Wii Sports natural feel control system. A lot of Nintendoland games involve holding the wiimote sideways and using it like a regular controller, which is also the case for NSMBU, which is also the case for DKCR, which is also the case for Mario Kart, which is also the case for Smash Bros. I think they went with Wiimote compatibility simply for convenience for Wii owners that might have been on the fence about upgrading, because Pikmin is the only first party game that uses it like a Wii game, and that might be because a lot of its development happened when it was slated for the original Wii.
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Aug 11, 2013 18:44
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deadwing posted:Yeah, developers don't know for certain is if anyone has any extra controllers for any console, so why bother making multiplayer for any game at all? He has a point. Things tend not to go so well when you introduce a shitload of different peripherals. When wii motion plus was released, how many games used it? The n64 expansion pak?
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Aug 11, 2013 18:46
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deadwing posted:Yeah, developers don't know for certain is if anyone has any extra controllers for any console, so why bother making multiplayer for any game at all? I'm not being pedantic, I'm pointing out a factor that developers DO consider. Like yeah, it was possible for USB mouse-keyboard support to be a thing for the PS3 and the 360, but most games that could have benefited from that never saw it. Part of it might have been game balance, but another important part of it is that developing games takes time, testing them takes time, and having to test another alternate control scheme that requires an optional peripheral takes time that might not actually be worth it. Hell, Splinter Cell is REMOVING LOCAL CO-OP from the Wii U version, I imagine in part because they're trying to rush the game out the door, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's something they never even bothered to start implementing. There's not that many Wii U's out there at the moment, and apparently the thing about the Wii U version of the game is using the GamePad as Sam Fisher's little screen gizmo deal. The obvious solution would be "Make the GamePad one player, and the TV is used by another player with a Pro Controller", but that's not the direction they chose to go in. Maybe it's not possible. Maybe they don't see people buying up extra controllers to play local co-op on Wii U games. Who knows. But it is a factor that gets considered, and no amount of angry posting changes that. fivegears4reverse fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Aug 11, 2013 |
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Aug 11, 2013 18:48
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The WiiU's kind of in a weird spot because it's literally impossible for the user to purchase another one of the controllers that comes with the system. Just to put an extra crazy spin onto the mess.
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Aug 11, 2013 18:50
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And most of those Wiimotes were bought by people expecting to swing it like a baseball bat and not have to learn a bunch of different buttons, and Wii U's games almost universally require experience with a controller. I keep coming back to this because I don't think it can be emphasized enough that those people will NEVER be Wii U owners for that reason, and that's a huge chunk of the install base.
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Aug 11, 2013 18:50
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Honestly I just bought the Wii-U for Monster Hunter, it's just stupid how they don't have proper online multiplayer for WU and 3DS so you can do crossplatform games. I had hopes the system would be filled with nothing by nitche games, but it's really turning out that it's just being filled with nothing. Even the original Wii had poo poo like shmups, 2d fighters, and other genres by now. Also motion controls are things I don't really need. How can anyone say they're being bored just because the controller is pushing buttons is beyond me. PS3 just released Tales of Xillia and you will not be bored playing that game, the controller is just supposed to be an input device not a toy in itself.
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Aug 11, 2013 19:12
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Fallom posted:The WiiU's kind of in a weird spot because it's literally impossible for the user to purchase another one of the controllers that comes with the system.
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Aug 11, 2013 19:22
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Fallom posted:The WiiU's kind of in a weird spot because it's literally impossible for the user to purchase another one of the controllers that comes with the system. Ultimately (I'd guess) this is because the Gamepad doesn't actually render anything, so the console itself has to. So adding extra pads would mean extra work for the console, meaning extra fiddling with graphical quality settings to maintain a solid fps level. This is probably also limiting developers on how much you can do with the Gamepad without negatively affecting the on-TV graphics. Weird situation to be in. Either that or Nintendo just didn't plan for anyone wanting more than one.
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Aug 11, 2013 19:30
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Edmund Honda posted:Ultimately (I'd guess) this is because the Gamepad doesn't actually render anything, so the console itself has to. So adding extra pads would mean extra work for the console, meaning extra fiddling with graphical quality settings to maintain a solid fps level. This is probably also limiting developers on how much you can do with the Gamepad without negatively affecting the on-TV graphics. Weird situation to be in. I remember pre-launch there was a lot of back and forth about "can the Wii U support two gamepads?" Apparently it can, but it doesn't matter since they're not selling them. The only possible way to play with two gamepads is a situation in which two people own Wii Us, and one person brings their gamepad to the other's house. Though considering they apparently charge $140 for replacements, I'd guess we won't be seeing them sold individually anytime soon, potentially several years until they can get the costs down.
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Aug 11, 2013 19:39
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I was just saying I was surprised that MS was sticking to Kinect, there is potential for fun new games like Octodad that are hilarious fun because of it. The problem is MS won't risk embracing it. And that is most likely a safe and sound decision. My other argument was that a capactive screen with the ergonomics of the game pad is unnecessary and a pain in the rear end to do multiple inputs with. Such as illcendiary pointed out. I'm not naild to the cross over Nintendo I'm just tired of hearing the same arguments about how to run their company better with 20/20 hindsight. Every page the same tired lines, bad marketing, bad 1st year line up, poor 3rd party support, they need a price drop, its a shame they are not third party, and I'm sure I'm missing some. In a few months after the honeymoon with Xbone and Ps4 is over with their launches we will have 3 consoles to moan about instead of 1. Nintendo difference is they have a strong first party with a weaker system. Midee - didn't the Famicom in japan come with two hard wired controllers?
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Aug 11, 2013 19:53
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Junkie Disease posted:Midee - didn't the Famicom in japan come with two hard wired controllers?
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Aug 11, 2013 19:54
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The reason they don't sell additional Gamepads is because they haven't designed any games around owning a second Gamepad. And there wouldn't be any use having one right now, because the firmware doesn't currently accommodate it even if it will be possible later. As I also recall, due to the streaming tech, each Gamepad's framerate has to get cut in half for it to work (basically, it would work in alternation, sending odd-numbered frames to one Gamepad and even-numbered frames to the other). It's kind of odd to say "They need to fix the perception that it's an accessory for the original Wii" one moment, and then immediately say "They need to sell Gamepads by themselves!" the next. If you're going to make complaints and propose solutions, at least make sure they aren't at cross-purposes.
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Aug 11, 2013 20:13
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Supercar Gautier posted:The reason they don't sell additional Gamepads is because they haven't designed any games around owning a second Gamepad. And there wouldn't be any use having one right now, because the firmware doesn't currently accommodate it even if it will be possible later. As I also recall, due to the streaming tech, each Gamepad's framerate has to get cut in half for it to work (basically, it would work in alternation, sending odd-numbered frames to one Gamepad and even-numbered frames to the other). This kinda illustrates how dumb the gamepad is, as far as being an investment for Nintendo to make. They made a device that is limited entirely by the hardware it's tethered to, and the hardware is weak enough that supporting multiple gamepads is up in the air at the moment. This is of course on top of the fact that Nintendo itself has copped to the fact that they weren't fully prepared to handle the demands of making games for their new hardware that they managed to bungle the presentation of for two years straight across multiple tradeshow events. I think the gamepad would be much better off if the actual Wii U had more muscle behind it, but as is I'm afraid it's always going to be a thing that falls short of people's expectations and dreams.
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Aug 11, 2013 20:31
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fivegears4reverse posted:It's like you're so desperate to defend Nintendo from all slights you can't help yourself from sounding like, well, Paper Jam Dipper about it. There's a whole thread for you and Junkie Disease to be happy in, rather than cyclically orbiting back into this thread to cry foul about how only Nintendo Haters (tm) post here and this thread should really be in Reddit why are people so mean to Nintendo I like how you completely ignored how I pointed out you needed a Gamecube controller when playing Gamecube games with the Wii. Because it completely defeats your cry.
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Aug 11, 2013 20:34
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Paper Jam Dipper posted:I like how you completely ignored how I pointed out you needed a Gamecube controller when playing Gamecube games with the Wii. Because it completely defeats your cry. The Gamecube controller wasn't used for any of the Wii launch games though. You would only need it if you just wanted to play physical gamecube games. Where as Nintendo land requires a wii mote or two to play the games and it's a pack in title.
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Aug 11, 2013 20:37
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The list of systems where you don't need to buy more controllers for more players is pretty small. The whole line of argument seems a bit silly to me and I don't think you need to reach that deep into the barrel for criticisms of the Wii U.
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Aug 11, 2013 20:53
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Paper Jam Dipper posted:You know, it's one thing when people have real gripes about the console but complaining they have to buy a Wii controller to play Wii games is impressively whiny. I don't ever remember anyone bitching about having to use a GameCube controller to play GameCube on the Wii. So petty. Actually, I do remember people complaining about having to have a Gamecube controller, as well as the fact that the Classic controller wouldn't function as a Gamecube controller. It was annoying. quote:Meanwhile, you can't play 360 games on the XBone and you can't play PS3 on the PS4 unless you rebuy the games digitally. Who cares how much that could cost, it doesn't fit into a gently caress Nintendo rant. This really doesn't seem like something worth getting on a high horse over.
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Aug 11, 2013 20:55
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Supercar Gautier posted:The list of systems where you don't need to buy more controllers for more players is pretty small. The whole line of argument seems a bit silly to me and I don't think you need to reach that deep into the barrel for criticisms of the Wii U. It's not that it's more controllers, it's the fact that it's an entirely different type of controller. The Wii mote is a sometimes controller since only games sometimes will use it.
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Aug 11, 2013 20:59
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Complaining how you can or have to use Wii remotes on the WiiU is a weird thing to argue about considering how many are out in the wild and already in consumers' hands. I remember the mad rush for GameCube controllers when Brawl was released. I was working at Gamecrazy at the time and even the 3rd party GC controllers didn't stay in stock for more than a couple days.
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Aug 11, 2013 21:07
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Louisgod posted:Complaining how you can or have to use Wii remotes on the WiiU is a weird thing to argue about considering how many are out in the wild and already in consumers' hands. I remember the mad rush for GameCube controllers when Brawl was released. I was working at Gamecrazy at the time and even the 3rd party GC controllers didn't stay in stock for more than a couple days. To clarify, I don't think it's a bad thing at ALL that the Wii U supports old controllers, and I definitely wish the same was being done on the PS4 and Xbone. My own personal problem with the WiiMote support is that I feel it's going to get scaled down over time, possibly sooner rather than later, now that it is seen entirely as an "option". The Wii U pretty much revolves around the GamePad, and you can get a pro controller for other players. It's been brought up that there are games that support the WiiMote, like NSMBU and Pikmin, but I think that's more of a consequence of NSMBU being a sequel to something that used the WiiMotes, and Pikmin originally being developed for the Wii. It's all well and good that there are so many millions of WiiMotes out there in the hands of players, but there are only around 3.5 million Wii U owners out there, so it's pretty clear that the compatibility of the Wii and Wii U hasn't factored in one iota for the vast majority of 100+ million Wii owners who might or might not be considering making the plunge. That goes back, again, to what I think is Nintendo's 'deemphasis' of Motion Controls with the GamePad. Rather than being a thing that defines the entire Wii U experience, motion controls have become a side feature that the GamePad can also do. Oh, and some Wii U games support your WiiMotes too. The Wii is essentially dead in the West, most third party support for it has moved on to newer hardware, and Nintendo is rightfully focusing their efforts on the 3DS and their new console. I think that heralds fewer games that accomodate the WiiMote the farther we go into the Wii U's life. I know it's speculation at this point, but I don't think it's entirely baseless.
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Aug 11, 2013 21:22
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Is the Wii U still being sold at a loss? Edit: Never mind, Nintendo confirmed this last week.
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Aug 11, 2013 21:38
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Toady posted:This really doesn't seem like something worth getting on a high horse over. Backwards compatibility seems to be the one thing WiiU owners get to lord over everyone else. Unfortunately for Nintendo only a very tiny, very vocal minority care about BC.
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Aug 11, 2013 21:52
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Quest For Glory II posted:And most of those Wiimotes were bought by people expecting to swing it like a baseball bat and not have to learn a bunch of different buttons, and Wii U's games almost universally require experience with a controller. I keep coming back to this because I don't think it can be emphasized enough that those people will NEVER be Wii U owners for that reason, and that's a huge chunk of the install base. The people who didn't want to learn buttons and just wanted to swing it are most likely the same people who jumped on the tablet bandwagon and know how to use those. Most everyone owns some form of touch phone, and the Wii U can be used without hitting a single button on the controller, you can just use the touch screen if you want. If they learn that they can swing their baseball bat AND touch poo poo with there fingers on the Wii U, they will be all over it.
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Aug 11, 2013 21:58
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Magossa posted:The people who didn't want to learn buttons and just wanted to swing it are most likely the same people who jumped on the tablet bandwagon and know how to use those. You obviously overestimate the adaptability of non/mobile gamers. The uPad is intimidating to look at, cause not only does it have a giant screen, but it also has a modern controller's buttons/sticks/triggers. People jumped on the wiimote cause it was stupid simple to swing the thing around. You give somebody a uPad and ask them to try and play Batman Arkham City or any other game that requires the use of both the screens and the buttons with it, and they won't have a loving clue where to start and will give up within seconds.
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Aug 11, 2013 22:05
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Magossa posted:The people who didn't want to learn buttons and just wanted to swing it are most likely the same people who jumped on the tablet bandwagon and know how to use those. Most everyone owns some form of touch phone, and the Wii U can be used without hitting a single button on the controller, you can just use the touch screen if you want. e: Nevermind the fact that Nintendoland's lobby requires use of the analog stick and buttons, and the quick menu is not unlocked at the start.
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Aug 11, 2013 22:12
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Junkie Disease posted:Have you tried to use two touch inputs on this thing at the same time and said this could be doable? It didn't take much to see that it was a ergonomic nightmare for anything but two thumbs. That is not a knock against Nintendo. This isn't an ipad, this was never intended to have touch be the main interface for the majority of games and there is good reasons for it. So instead of using cheaply available, better tech and just using it for single touch input, they got resistive touch screens custom made at huge expense (since almost no one produces them in that size because why would you) just so they could use a stylus instead of your fingers like every single other touch screen device people use in this, the year of our lord 2013? I see that Nintendo are masters of devious, circuitous plans and this certainly wasn't just a loving stupid mistake they made!
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Aug 11, 2013 22:22
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Quest For Glory II posted:Please list the Wii U games that can be played solely on the GamePad touch screen. From memory, I can think of the Yoshi minigame in Nintendoland, the drawing minigame in Game & Wario, and... uh....... what else, maybe the Burst Mode multiplayer in NSMBU? Its a short tutorial then the game's lobby will take ether method.
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Aug 11, 2013 22:22
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OLIVIAS WILDE RIDER posted:So instead of using cheaply available, better tech and just using it for single touch input, they got resistive touch screens custom made at huge expense (since almost no one produces them in that size because why would you) just so they could use a stylus instead of your fingers like every single other touch screen device people use in this, the year of our lord 2013? No they must have taken the dumber more expensive path for no reason at all. illcendiary must be out of his mind but hey were all tech experts here.
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Aug 11, 2013 22:25
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Junkie Disease posted:No they must have taken the dumber more expensive path for no reason at all. But that's actually happened many times in the past with consoles. 32X Sega CD Gamegear Nintendo 64 Nintendo 64 DD Atari Jaguar Phillips CDi Game.Com N-Gage The Taint Reaper fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Aug 11, 2013 |
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Aug 11, 2013 22:27
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WendigoJohnson posted:But that's happened many times in the past with consoles. Yes but with reasons, Satellite hook up, light guns, Famicom had microphones for just the novelty of being able to hear your voice on tv, the jaguar's controller was made to make you miss keypads, and the n64 had a ram slot in case they could have made that take off better. Stylus is the answer in this case that and I would suspect durability but I am not an expert on touch screens.
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Aug 11, 2013 22:31
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Junkie Disease posted:No they must have taken the dumber more expensive path for no reason at all. When Nintendo is failing to produce HD games effectively because they "didn't realize it was hard" it's not exactly convincing to argue the old "they're a big company, they must have had a good reason to do what they did" chestnut. Gaming is full of bad decisions made for bad reasons.
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Aug 11, 2013 22:32
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Fallom posted:When Nintendo is failing to produce HD games effectively because they "didn't realize it was hard" it's not exactly convincing to argue the old "they're a big company, they must have had a good reason to do what they did" chestnut. Gaming is full of bad decisions made for bad reasons. Sony Playstation wouldn't exist if Nintendo just would have OK'd the Nintendo CD system. Just think you coulda had a console that played Ocarania of Time, Majora's Mask, and Final Fantasies 7 to 9.
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Aug 11, 2013 22:34
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Fallom posted:When Nintendo is failing to produce HD games effectively because they "didn't realize it was hard" it's not exactly convincing to argue the old "they're a big company, they must have had a good reason to do what they did" chestnut. Gaming is full of bad decisions made for bad reasons. So are we arguing that a big company make decisions based on what they think is a good reason? Hindsight can help. Or are we arguing that a stylus input is a bad idea? Miiverse and Art Academy seem to be what they were hoping to allow with it.
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Aug 11, 2013 22:36
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Junkie Disease posted:No they must have taken the dumber more expensive path for no reason at all. illcendiary must be out of his mind but hey were all tech experts here. Don't get me wrong, I still think they screwed up the approach. The gamepad has a pretty bad resolution and even if it's conducive to stylus input, resistive touchscreens are pretty terrible. It'd have been a much more elegant (and expensive, and battery-hogging, to be fair) solution if they had gone with at least a 720p screen with multi-touch. Then you'd have a really nice second screen for off-screen HD play. The ppi on the game pad is a lot greater than say a full-size (40"+) HDTV, but given that a gamepad is used at a much closer distance, the perceived resolution is lower.
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Aug 11, 2013 22:39
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Junkie Disease posted:So are we arguing that a big company make decisions based on what they think is a good reason? Hindsight can help. Or are we arguing that a stylus input is a bad idea? Miiverse and Art Academy seem to be what they were hoping to allow with it. 
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Aug 11, 2013 22:44
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illcendiary posted:Don't get me wrong, I still think they screwed up the approach. The gamepad has a pretty bad resolution and even if it's conducive to stylus input, resistive touchscreens are pretty terrible. It'd have been a much more elegant (and expensive, and battery-hogging, to be fair) solution if they had gone with at least a 720p screen with multi-touch. Then you'd have a really nice second screen for off-screen HD play. The ppi on the game pad is a lot greater than say a full-size (40"+) HDTV, but given that a gamepad is used at a much closer distance, the perceived resolution is lower. You know this better then I do. Price is always an issue with Nintendo and when the option comes up they would rather keep it cheaper. I would kill for a 3ds that had cameras on it that wern't the most low rent sub megapixel turds on the market. But there is probably more then one factor in that decision. I would love a nice stereoscopic camera built into my handheld. Most likely Nintendo didn't have any plans for a game using it that needed more. I was surprised that the upad wasn't using the same cameras.
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Aug 11, 2013 22:46
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Junkie Disease posted:You know this better then I do. Price is always an issue with Nintendo and when the option comes up they would rather keep it cheaper. Just bundle one of those pro controllers instead, save a lot of money per unit, and you either make a profit off each sale or you can funnel that into pretty much anything that would make the console better.
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Aug 11, 2013 22:48
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WendigoJohnson posted:Sony Playstation wouldn't exist if Nintendo just would have OK'd the Nintendo CD system. Sega might still be around 
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Aug 11, 2013 22:52
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Quest For Glory II posted:They make styluses for capacitive screens Are they as simple and cheap and just plastic? Its way cheaper. Is not making the screen 4k the next issue? This is getting way too nitpicky on choices for mass production. Ps4 controller doesn't have a screen for its touchpad. They must be crazy or just weighing their price vs use vs demand for mass production.
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Aug 11, 2013 22:53
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