|
Juaguocio posted:I don't like the idea of the Bloody Nine being some kind of demon possessing Logen, so I may be pushing my own interpretation when the evidence is not really there. I think it would be much more interesting if Logen's twisted mind is responsible for his actions, rather than some supernatural force. I don't think he's possessed, I think he just has two distinct personalities and one of them is a horrifying monster of a murderer.
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2013 15:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 18, 2024 00:52 |
|
|
Evfedu posted:Yep, from the first time in the first book he always brings up the cold of the other side, which is where the magic comes from. The bloody nine is absolutely a distinct magical entity, but Logen can choose to block him out of his life and doesn't do so. So again, complicated dude morally speaking. Not really, we see the Bloody-Nine seizing control regardless of Logen's wishes whenever Logen is badly injured and doesnt have the mental energy to stop it. Quote from The Blade Itself: "He couldn't lift the old sword any more. There was no strength left. Nothing. The room was growing Blurry. All things come to an end, but some only lie still, forgotten... There was a cold feeling in Logen's stomach, a feeling he hadn't felt for a long time. 'No', he whispered. 'I'm free of you'. But it was too late. Too late..." quote:E: if you notice in Red Country we never see a Logen hulk out from his PoV. Red Country does play in that ambiguity between the two, and I feel that was a deliberate choice on Abercrombie's part. It's a little like with Ferro. I'd like to peek back in and see how the demons inside them have managed to warp their minds. The ambiguity about Logen's possession in Red Country is simply a result of us not getting Logen's POV in Red Country like we did in The First Law. Red Country shows us what Logen's/B9's behaviour looks like from an outsiders perspective, which goes a long way of explaining why Logen is so hated and feared.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2013 18:25
|
|
|
Oh Snapple! posted:General Kroy has also become a pretty "good" person by the time of The Heroes. But I have an inflated opinion of anyone who calls Bayaz on his poo poo and decides they wants no part of it. Ah yes Kroy, that was to me a case of a character starting out as an unlikeable oval office but then turning out somewhat alright in the end.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2013 21:23
|
|
|
Dogman tries his best to be a fair person and good leader. I was pretty surprised how little he appeared in The Heroes, but hopefully this means he'll make a big contribution in the next series.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2013 22:55
|
|
|
keiran_helcyan posted:Dogman tries his best to be a fair person and good leader. I was pretty surprised how little he appeared in The Heroes, but hopefully this means he'll make a big contribution in the next series. The way the Dogman brushed off Calder when he tried to apologize for what he did to Forley the Weakest was awesome, though.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2013 23:01
|
|
|
Blind Melon posted:If you read Bloody Nine Time from Logens PoV he always gets really cold as its happening, and cold appears whenever the other side is somehow present. It can't be coincidence. I've always thought that this is sort of a purely physical side effect. A big hit of adrenaline can leave you with that cold/butterflies feeling because your body is diverting blood away from relatively unimportant things like digestion in order to fuel immediately important things, like muscles(for fighting or running) and your brain(for deciding which you should do). People going into shock feel cold for the same reason; their body is diverting all their bloodflow to critical functions. I always assumed that the cold feeling Logen experienced was something along these lines. His body is preparing to hulk out and redirecting resources accordingly. I've always preferred the idea that there's nothing supernatural about the B9. To me, it cheapens the character to turn Logen from a berserker into a case of Otherly possession or whatnot. Logen the Berserker is a broken man, trying to overcome his inner flaws. Logen the Possessed is a victim and much less interesting.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2013 04:42
|
|
|
Mr.48 posted:Not really, we see the Bloody-Nine seizing control regardless of Logen's wishes whenever Logen is badly injured and doesnt have the mental energy to stop it. In Red Country it's been over a decade since a B9 sighting and he wades back into violence with a great big smile.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2013 16:03
|
|
|
I subscribe to the idea that the bloody nine is something that takes control of Logen, but what you just describe is also why I feel that doesn't make him without any blame or cheapens his story. Logen seems to enjoy the kind of life that's filled with violence and gets himself into situations where the bloody nine will emerge. So he does bear some responsibility for what the bloody nine does. In Red Country he had successfully blocked it out of his life for a long time, but to get his family back he had to become that person again and he finds that he still likes it, until the bloody nine emerges and he starts killing his friends, that part's not so great, but it's just so nice to not have to sit and take poo poo from no nothing farmers and bullies and have respect, do what he's good at and so forth, gotta be realistic about these things...
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2013 17:19
|
|
|
Abercrombie's writing has evolved a lot since The Blade Itself, so maybe he changed his mind about the Logen/B9 split personality and wanted to make it more ambiguous. Has he ever addressed that idea in an interview?
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2013 03:07
|
|
|
Mr.48 posted:The ambiguity about Logen's possession in Red Country is simply a result of us not getting Logen's POV in Red Country like we did in The First Law. Red Country shows us what Logen's/B9's behaviour looks like from an outsiders perspective, which goes a long way of explaining why Logen is so hated and feared. His Divine Shadow posted:I subscribe to the idea that the bloody nine is something that takes control of Logen, but what you just describe is also why I feel that doesn't make him without any blame or cheapens his story. Logen seems to enjoy the kind of life that's filled with violence and gets himself into situations where the bloody nine will emerge. So he does bear some responsibility for what the bloody nine does. In my opinion, the relationship between Logen and the Blood Nine in Red Country is ambiguous because Joe wants it to be so and he challenges our perception of Logen as a noble savage who years for a life of honor but cannot control his Mr. Hyde at all times.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2013 05:38
|
|
|
I've always thought it was quite clear that the Bloody Nine is a part of Logen's personality...a part he is ashamed of, but at the most a dissociative/schizophrenic/mutliple personality disorder. Saying that they are actually two beings strikes me as an attempt to rationalize a character that readers love with the fact that he's also a murdering psychopath.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2013 21:46
|
|
|
Zeitgueist posted:I've always thought it was quite clear that the Bloody Nine is a part of Logen's personality...a part he is ashamed of, but at the most a dissociative/schizophrenic/mutliple personality disorder. Especially given that his entire arc in the trilogy is about subverting any idea that he is at heart a good person. I mean, that doesn't preclude the Bloody Nine from being some sort of spirit manifestation but it's super-clear that even non-berserk Logen is, well... Say one thing for Logen Ninefingers. Say he's a oval office.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2013 22:21
|
|
|
cheese posted:This is why Red Country not having Logen PoV's is so amazing. When Logen and Shy go into the bar, Logen seems to revel in the build up to the actual violence. He is enjoying not only the anticipation of violence, but the reaction of the 3 men. It reaches a climax and Logen dispatches 2 of the men almost effortlessly, with the third only living thanks to Shy. The interesting question is, was that the Bloody Nine or Logen? We know Logen is a skilled, feared fighter on his own and surely he would have no trouble dispatching a couple of part time mercenaries without the Bloody Nine. But he also dispatches them when he could have easily incapacitated them - remember, he needs answers from them. If that was the Bloody Nine, then Logen has almost total control over when and where it comes out, and why did he use it when he really had no reason to? If that was Logen, then he reveled in the blood shed and the taking of lives (lives who, if we are honest, were probably just dudes down on their luck who needed the cash the kidnapping job provided). Someone like that can't be considered "good". I think Logen acted the way he did there because it was one of the first times in about a decade that he didn't have to swallow his pride and back down to avoid confrontation, when his natural instincts are completely the opposite of this from his lifetime as a fighting man in the North, especially one as respected and feared as he was. He had so much pent up rage and frustration that he was finally getting to release. His Divine Shadow posted:I subscribe to the idea that the bloody nine is something that takes control of Logen, but what you just describe is also why I feel that doesn't make him without any blame or cheapens his story. Logen seems to enjoy the kind of life that's filled with violence and gets himself into situations where the bloody nine will emerge. So he does bear some responsibility for what the bloody nine does. Yeah, pretty much this. One thing that I think pointed to the Bloody Nine being possession in Red Country was when Logen was fighting the Dragon People on that bridge and he was about to start attacking Shy and his stepkids too, until others interfered. Say what you want about how much of a violent prick he is, but I don't think Logen would want to kill children he loved and raised.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2013 23:37
|
|
|
Zeitgueist posted:Saying that they are actually two beings strikes me as an attempt to rationalize a character that readers love with the fact that he's also a murdering psychopath. That's pretty much what this thread has become, but for every character  .
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2013 23:41
|
|
|
The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Say one thing for Joe Abercrombie... Say that all his protagonists are objectively bad people. What I like about Abercrombie's approach with his major characters is that it kind of takes the Great Men of History theory and just runs with it to it's realistic outcome (that most Great Men of History are loving sociopaths, psychopaths, and murderers). Really refreshing considering how much Tolkein's white-washed heroes have dominated the genre's meta-narrative for over half a century now.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2013 01:04
|
|
|
savinhill posted:Yeah, pretty much this. One thing that I think pointed to the Bloody Nine being possession in Red Country was when Logen was fighting the Dragon People on that bridge and he was about to start attacking Shy and his stepkids too, until others interfered. Say what you want about how much of a violent prick he is, but I don't think Logen would want to kill children he loved and raised. Yeah then he broke down and started to cry when he snapped out of it, that's one of the strongest implications to me in favor of this interpretation.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2013 04:45
|
|
|
His Divine Shadow posted:Yeah then he broke down and started to cry when he snapped out of it, that's one of the strongest implications to me in favor of this interpretation. I'm still gonna go with serious psychological problem rather than possession, though. No reason to invoke the supernatural when you don't have to.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2013 05:22
|
|
|
Zeitgueist posted:I've always thought it was quite clear that the Bloody Nine is a part of Logen's personality...a part he is ashamed of, but at the most a dissociative/schizophrenic/mutliple personality disorder. I too subscribe to this theory, because it adds more depth to his character and makes a lot more interesting story than "oooo spooky spirits  "John Charity Spring posted:Especially given that his entire arc in the trilogy is about subverting any idea that he is at heart a good person. I mean, that doesn't preclude the Bloody Nine from being some sort of spirit manifestation but it's super-clear that even non-berserk Logen is, well... Say one thing for Logen Ninefingers. Say he's a oval office. I'm listening to TBI as an audiobook and yesterday reached the part where Logen meets Malacus Quai. Logen is about to eat last food he has with him when Quai arrives. The apprentice asks if Logen has already eaten and Logen lies that he has, so Quai can eat with good conscience. Later when their horse dies and Quai is dying of fever, Logen asks directions to Bayaz and instead of abandoning the apprentice who's a big liability Logen carries him for the last few days despite being weak and wounded himself. So... say one thing for Logen Ninefingers, say he's a life-saver? I think I might've come up with a solution to the "this character is good/bad" debate, which seems to have stuck in a perpetual loop in this thread. Maybe we've been falling for the fallacy that there are good and bad people. It's refreshing to think that there are simply people, that they do good and bad deeds and some of them tend to do more of either one (but that doesn't make it necessary to label them CHAOTIC GOOD or LAWFUL EVIL).
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2013 06:39
|
|
|
savinhill posted:Yeah, pretty much this. One thing that I think pointed to the Bloody Nine being possession in Red Country was when Logen was fighting the Dragon People on that bridge and he was about to start attacking Shy and his stepkids too, until others interfered. Say what you want about how much of a violent prick he is, but I don't think Logen would want to kill children he loved and raised. Logen tried to warn Tul Duru Thunderhead away. He tried to push him back. And then the Bloody-Nine put a knife in his throat. Throughout the books, the Bloody-Nine is the enemy of the whole world. There's nothing I've read anywhere that implies that Logen gets any say in who the B9 kills.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2013 08:45
|
|
|
Zeitgueist posted:I've always thought it was quite clear that the Bloody Nine is a part of Logen's personality...a part he is ashamed of, but at the most a dissociative/schizophrenic/mutliple personality disorder. Yeah probably but it can be more complex. Like remember Byaz solution to Fero? The voices from the Other Side have no power if you don't listen. So maybe it is Logen being a bloodthirsty psychopath that gets him in tune with the Other Side. Maybe it has something to do with listening to spirits. But there is something supernatural going on with Logen. That much was made clear when he ate a fire spirit and then spat it in a guys face.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2013 08:51
|
|
|
I don't think it fits to just say that Logen's crazy. If we that didn't have wizards that would be fine, but for a series and setting in which having magic completely changes your life, it makes more sense for Logen the spirit talker hulking out into the bloody nine to be somehow magical.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2013 09:04
|
|
|
Rurik posted:I too subscribe to this theory, because it adds more depth to his character and makes a lot more interesting story than "oooo spooky spirits Oh, sure. But the whole progress Logen goes through in the trilogy is to realise that he can't be a good person as long as he's in the North, and that's presumably why he flees to the Near Country. Where it turns out he can't be a good person either, really. Certainly nowhere near as good as he'd like to be.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2013 09:52
|
|
|
Blind Melon posted:Yeah probably but it can be more complex. Like remember Byaz solution to Fero? The voices from the Other Side have no power if you don't listen. So maybe it is Logen being a bloodthirsty psychopath that gets him in tune with the Other Side. Maybe it has something to do with listening to spirits. But there is something supernatural going on with Logen. That much was made clear when he ate a fire spirit and then spat it in a guys face. Yup, Logen being in an ultra-violent, chaotic situation is pretty much a requirement for the Bloody Nine to take over. The only way he was able to avoid TB9 was by becoming a total pacifist, which had to be extremely hard for someone like him. His arc in Red Country is pretty tragic, all things considered.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2013 11:25
|
|
|
savinhill posted:Yup, Logen being in an ultra-violent, chaotic situation is pretty much a requirement for the Bloody Nine to take over. The only way he was able to avoid TB9 was by becoming a total pacifist, which had to be extremely hard for someone like him. His arc in Red Country is pretty tragic, all things considered. I always thought it was way more interesting without being supernatural, but if it isn't Abercrombie is pretty loving optimistic about the injuries you can completely recover from, with the level of medicine they're likely to have in the north. Wasn't Logen straight up impaled at one point? And I think quick healing was one of Fero's powers. One the other hand everyone seems to get battered to almost the same level and be pretty much fine.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2013 12:19
|
|
|
savinhill posted:I think Logen acted the way he did there because it was one of the first times in about a decade that he didn't have to swallow his pride and back down to avoid confrontation, when his natural instincts are completely the opposite of this from his lifetime as a fighting man in the North, especially one as respected and feared as he was. He had so much pent up rage and frustration that he was finally getting to release. I'd say that the only difference between Logen in TFL and RC is that he's accepted that he's the Bloody Nine and revels in it rather than fight it. There's a scene in the book where he says to Shy that when he first saw the burnt out farm and the missing kids that his first emotion was joy rather than shock or anger, since he didn't have to pretend to be Lamb any more. Plus he does quite a few stone cold things when he's not the Bloody Nine that TFL Logen probably wouldn't have done, like try to hang the outlaw from the bar, kill all those Ghosts after agreeing terms, and put the fear of God into the leader of the Dragon People.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2013 13:09
|
|
|
Magnus Manfist posted:I always thought it was way more interesting without being supernatural, but if it isn't Abercrombie is pretty loving optimistic about the injuries you can completely recover from, with the level of medicine they're likely to have in the north. Wasn't Logen straight up impaled at one point? And I think quick healing was one of Fero's powers. Impaled. Blacked out. Woke up injured and having won the fight. Added complexity: If he went B9 during those duels, how are the people he dueled still alive?
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2013 15:37
|
|
|
Rurik posted:I think I might've come up with a solution to the "this character is good/bad" debate, which seems to have stuck in a perpetual loop in this thread. Maybe we've been falling for the fallacy that there are good and bad people. It's refreshing to think that there are simply people, that they do good and bad deeds and some of them tend to do more of either one (but that doesn't make it necessary to label them CHAOTIC GOOD or LAWFUL EVIL). Eh, I just think you need to have a properly nuanced view of morality. Too often people seem to think that presenting a deliberately one-sided, simplified (to remove context) or exaggerated catalogue of a person's good or bad actions proves that they're one thing or the other. Good people do bad things, or sometimes they end up in tough situations where knowing what the "right" thing to do is complicated and difficult, or sometimes they make mistakes. In life and in Abercrombie's books, I think a person can be good without being a paragon of virtue, and someone can be bad while still occasionally acting in the interest of others or doing a good thing. I think one can categorize some of the characters as basically good or bad, but most do fall into some murky ground in between. I understand why people might not want to use a label at all.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2013 16:17
|
|
|
Blind Melon posted:Impaled. Blacked out. Woke up injured and having won the fight. The guys he fought were just that good? Except for Forley. Poor Forley  .
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2013 16:54
|
|
|
savinhill posted:Yeah, pretty much this. One thing that I think pointed to the Bloody Nine being possession in Red Country was when Logen was fighting the Dragon People on that bridge and he was about to start attacking Shy and his stepkids too, until others interfered. Say what you want about how much of a violent prick he is, but I don't think Logen would want to kill children he loved and raised. I don't see why he wouldn't kill them if he has multiple personalities or some other mental disorder.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2013 23:56
|
|
|
savinhill posted:Yeah, pretty much this. One thing that I think pointed to the Bloody Nine being possession in Red Country was when Logen was fighting the Dragon People on that bridge and he was about to start attacking Shy and his stepkids too, until others interfered. Say what you want about how much of a violent prick he is, but I don't think Logen would want to kill children he loved and raised. He doesn't have to be possessed to be completely insane. His alternate personality, if you believe that interpretation, is The Great Leveler, who spares no one. The Bloody-Nine doesn't care about family or love.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2013 00:18
|
|
|
cheese posted:This is why Red Country not having Logen PoV's is so amazing. When Logen and Shy go into the bar, Logen seems to revel in the build up to the actual violence. He is enjoying not only the anticipation of violence, but the reaction of the 3 men. It reaches a climax and Logen dispatches 2 of the men almost effortlessly, with the third only living thanks to Shy. The interesting question is, was that the Bloody Nine or Logen? We know Logen is a skilled, feared fighter on his own and surely he would have no trouble dispatching a couple of part time mercenaries without the Bloody Nine. But he also dispatches them when he could have easily incapacitated them - remember, he needs answers from them. If that was the Bloody Nine, then Logen has almost total control over when and where it comes out, and why did he use it when he really had no reason to? If that was Logen, then he reveled in the blood shed and the taking of lives (lives who, if we are honest, were probably just dudes down on their luck who needed the cash the kidnapping job provided). Someone like that can't be considered "good".
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2013 02:07
|
|
|
UncleMonkey posted:The scene in the bar was definitely the Bloody Nine taking over. Logen knew what would happen of course and clearly enjoyed it. But it definitely was not him. When he was going to lynch the one guy and Shy stepped in, that was the first time he almost attacked her. But he manages to snap out of it and that's the first time he stresses to her that she needs to stay out of his way when he gets like that. It foreshadows the incident towards the end with Logen fighting the Dragon People perfectly.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2013 02:57
|
|
|
Yeah it's not like they took part in kidnapping his kids, murdering his friend, and burning down his farm. Oh wait... There aren't many fantasy settings in which that particular set of men would have survived.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2013 03:40
|
|
|
Ornamented Death posted:Yeah it's not like they took part in kidnapping his kids, murdering his friend, and burning down his farm. Oh wait...
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2013 22:26
|
|
|
cheese posted:I might be misremembering, but I thought it was implied that those 3 left because their job had turned into something more than they planed? Like they signed on to kidnap some people but murdering and so forth was more than they wanted? Maybe that was just Logen's musing though. Either way, he absolutely relished unleashing the Bloody-Nine on those 3 the way a fox would relish butchering some fat chickens. It's The First Law universe, saying stuff like that doesn't stop the murder-train.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2013 22:47
|
|
|
cheese posted:I might be misremembering, but I thought it was implied that those 3 left because their job had turned into something more than they planed? Like they signed on to kidnap some people but murdering and so forth was more than they wanted? Maybe that was just Logen's musing though. Either way, he absolutely relished unleashing the Bloody-Nine on those 3 the way a fox would relish butchering some fat chickens. They did, in fact, come to that conclusion, but only after murdering Logen's friend, burning down his farm, and kidnapping his children. Again, doing stuff like that and then saying "sorry bro, we changed our minds!" isn't going to save them in essentially any fantasy setting.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2013 00:12
|
|
|
Have we heard anything about Ferro after the end of the LAoK?
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2013 15:25
|
|
|
Ravenfood posted:Have we heard anything about Ferro after the end of the LAoK? No, which is a shame, since she's one of my favorite characters. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2013 15:42
|
|
|
Ravenfood posted:Have we heard anything about Ferro after the end of the LAoK? Nope! She was easily one of the most distressing fridging of women that Abercrombie's done. I was pretty upset with him for it, considering he had such a great opportunity to make, not only a strong/believable/awesome female character, but also a POC one. At least we got Temple. Honestly, I do not know how interesting a character she would have been considering that all the motives we got from her were just Monza's turned up to 11. Which is pretty extreme.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2013 16:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 18, 2024 00:52 |
|
|
nutranurse posted:Nope! She was easily one of the most distressing fridging of women that Abercrombie's done. I was pretty upset with him for it, considering he had such a great opportunity to make, not only a strong/believable/awesome female character, but also a POC one. At least we got Temple. Presumably she killed one of the Winds, given what Ishri says in Heroes.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2013 21:44
|
|