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Machine sprites have three skills[Computer, Electronic Warfare, Hardware], three powers[Gremlins, Stability, Diagnostics], and a sad. Sprites in general no longer get optional anything. This is particularly odd, because spirits still do. I'm not sure if this is an intentional new direction, an accident, or "BUY THE SPLATBOOK!" on the part of the designers. The non-technomancer matrix is pretty cool now, though! There's good reason to have the decker (decks are back!) come along on runs. Programs are a one-time-buy that adds a bonus, rather than yet another thing with a rating to keep track of. Matrixing doesn't take FOR EVER any more! The downside of all of this is that things that aren't decks can't run programs, so the days of everyone having an agent, and every device having a personality are gone.
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Aug 13, 2013 16:37
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But in 4th Edition they already made it so the hacker (which is what hackers are called, deckers is a stupid word) needed to come with on a run. And everyone having commilinks with agents and poo poo was both realistic and cool and made for a lot of poo poo the hacker could do. I know I keep bitching about how 4th ed is better without owning the 5th book yet, but so much of the stuff posted here seems like it sucks. I'm not saying the 4e Matrix rules were perfect - in fact they were complicated as hell - but I don't like the sweeping changes they seem to have made in 5e.
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Aug 13, 2013 16:44
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Martello posted:But in 4th Edition they already made it so the hacker (which is what hackers are called, deckers is a stupid word) needed to come with on a run. And everyone having commilinks with agents and poo poo was both realistic and cool and made for a lot of poo poo the hacker could do. Decker is a perfectly cromulent word for someone using a deck, and I still prefer 1st–3d ed where your ability to remote-operate semi-autonomous robot murdering machines were completely disconnected (and in fact inversely proportional) to your ability to destabilise software and subvert firmware. Also, magicking up your meat body was thoroughly and completely pointless for both of those brain-based activities. 
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Aug 13, 2013 17:06
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They cleaned up the matrix rules so that they are fairly consistent with everything else, and seem to run at a comparable speed. I also liked all the digital hijinks, and were I running a game would probably include all of it as "rating 0" programs that could run on a commlink (agents), or most devices(personasofts). To me, all the weak AIs running around made things like rogue AIs, sprites, and player AIs a LOT more plausible. Deckers can still have agents, although they're a little different now, due to the Matrix Condition Bar being more a feature of the deck than the persona (This is kinda neat, in my opinion). Skillsofts need that good old chipjack again, which could be good or bad depending on how you felt about them. I think I like the new matrix rules (except the incomplete-seemingness of sprites), but dislike the effect they had on the fluff. Hopefully, the matrix book will fix that up, or it can always be handwaved by the GM. Tippis posted:Decker is a perfectly cromulent word for someone using a deck, and I still prefer 1st–3d ed where your ability to remote-operate semi-autonomous robot murdering machines were completely disconnected (and in fact inversely proportional) to your ability to destabilise software and subvert firmware. Also, magicking up your meat body was thoroughly and completely pointless for both of those brain-based activities. I use 'hacker' as a blanket term to cover both technomancers and deckers, and use the specific terms if needed.
OB_Juan fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Aug 13, 2013 |
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Aug 13, 2013 17:06
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OB_Juan posted:The downside of all of this is that things that aren't decks can't run programs, so the days of everyone having an agent, and every device having a personality are gone. For me, the single most WTF line in the entire book is about agents on page 246. "Each agent occupies one program slot on your deck." EACH AGENT? I really hope they didn't intend to create an exception to the rule against multiple copies of a program on one cyberdeck just for agents because that would be literally retarded. OB_Juan posted:As for the TM's themselves, a rank of submersion buys you a R1 VCR in your head. No RCC though, so you can only really move one drone/vehicle/door around at a time (as long as it's wireless enabled, as you don't have the physical connector!). Not entirely sure what the point of that is.
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Aug 13, 2013 17:28
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Gobbeldygook posted:For cyberdecks, there's a 1:1 correspondence between device rating and the number of programs they can run, so I suspect they'll errata that the number of programs you're allowed to run on a device equals the device rating. Non-cyberdecks will be allowed to run legal programs, or maybe they'll let even non-cyberdecks run Exploit and potentially be able to do a tiny bit of hacking. It could be this. Drones do DR/2 (rnd up), so they may errata it to that. Actually, allowing agents up to 3 (since that's where the price break is), and legal programs to run on devices in either number would do a good job bringing back the fun. Gobbeldygook posted:For me, the single most WTF line in the entire book is about agents on page 246. Or they copy-pasted "Each program..." and didn't notice. Either reading could still be workable - multiple agents would be a considerable chunk of the number of programs you could run. Maybe that's another upside of a superdeck? Gobbeldygook posted:I imagine any technomancer really interested in rigging would own a trode net built into a helmet or a datajack, a cheap RCC, and a VCR. Or they let that power let you slave a device per submersion level or something? TM's already have a DP and FW rating, so they don't need those, don't really have a way to share autosofts, so don't need Sharing, and may just have to eat the noise (Resonance Channel FTW!). Maybe a TM with that power could figure out a way to make a device that just handles subscribing to drones, and he can just access that to manipulate the drones. Gobbeldygook posted:That said, I have trouble imagining how you'd build a techno-rigger who didn't suck at everything after spreading your skill points across hacking, rigging, and technomancing. I figure you'd start as a normal hacking-focused technomancer, and move into rigging over time. And so very much karma.
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Aug 13, 2013 18:04
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Have technos ever not been subpar deckers? I remember that in 4th they were very lackluster as well, at least out of the gate.
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Aug 13, 2013 18:07
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Forums Terrorist posted:Have technos ever not been subpar deckers? I remember that in 4th they were very lackluster as well, at least out of the gate. Eventually when they get their splatbook, they'll get Complex Forms (spells) that let them do things that a Decker either can't do, or can't do at comparable speed. As it stands, Running Silent is still the biggest "gently caress you" to anything Matrix related, since it just consumes actions on Matrix Perception tests before you get to do anything useful. You take a -2 dice pool penalty to Matrix actions I believe, including defense, for running silent, but why wouldn't you constantly do it? Its like if, in the real world, absolutely everyone had the option to be sustaining Improved Invisibility at all times. With the extra caveat that area of effect etc won't work on you, and so forth and so on. Its a bad rule and should be removed or altered significantly.
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Aug 13, 2013 18:57
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I'd say running silent should generate Overwatch; you have nothing to fear if you've nothing to hide.
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Aug 13, 2013 18:59
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Forums Terrorist posted:I'd say running silent should generate Overwatch; you have nothing to fear if you've nothing to hide. I totally agree and, if you want a rule reason for it to deal with a Rules As Written motherfucker, Running Silent vs detection is determined with Logic+Sleaze. Sleaze is an illegal matrix action, which means Overwatch. So, it's kinda like Improved Invisibility if the spell eventually caused your brain to explode and sent your location to the cops if you did it long enough.
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Aug 13, 2013 19:18
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Martello posted:But in 4th Edition they already made it so the hacker (which is what hackers are called, deckers is a stupid word) needed to come with on a run. And everyone having commilinks with agents and poo poo was both realistic and cool and made for a lot of poo poo the hacker could do. I for one prefer the return to 1-3E style deckers and matrix stuff. I really disliked using the term hacker because I felt it demystified the setting and evoked images of 4chan script kiddies in Guy Fawkes masks instead of mirror-shaded Gibsonian console cowboys like Case. I think I just realized that I'm a Shadowrun grognard.
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Aug 13, 2013 19:51
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Forums Terrorist posted:Have technos ever not been subpar deckers? I remember that in 4th they were very lackluster as well, at least out of the gate. Out the gate, it's a bit of a hard hustle. Over time, you get a few sprites registered, submerge a time or two, maybe start upping skills, and you're good. Meanwhile, that decker's still working on the 350k credits they're gonna need to upgrade their deck (although they have probably also upped their skills).
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Aug 13, 2013 19:52
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PeterWeller posted:I think I just realized that I'm a Shadowrun grognard. Yes. I dunno, I loving love Neuromancer and the rest of the Sprawl Trilogy, but I see them as a product of their time. Back in the 80s there was no internet so calling it the Matrix and having "console cowboys" was cool as gently caress. Now it's loving retarded and Shadowrun made a good call by following the march of culture and technology. My guess is that the grognard faction in Catalyst/angry Dumbshock users won and "deckers" came back. Big regression, to my mind. I even started playing this game with 3rd editions deckers and whatnot. Still can't stand the term.
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Aug 13, 2013 19:57
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I'm trying to understand the rules for fading (in regards to technos). The book says this: shadowrun posted:Threading causes Fading based on the specific complex form and its Level, with a minimum Fading DV of 2. If you get more hits on your Threading test than your Resonance rating, the Fading is Physical damage; otherwise it’s Stun damage. Does this mean that if I get a really sweet roll on my threading check, I can accidentally kill myself? Also, how do you guys feel about taking 6 ranks in the "Focused Concentration" feet, and then always keeping a self-cast level 6 Infusion of Firewall up at all times?
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Aug 13, 2013 20:03
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Depends, limits can help clip hits pretty well. Like, That seems pretty good. I might start doing something like that with Infusion of Sleaze, but I roll sneaky rather than fighty. It would be cool if the matrix book had a submersion power similar to quickening. Or centering.
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Aug 13, 2013 20:19
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Martello posted:Yes. I disagree with basically all of this. I like decks, wired matrix, all that stuff (ignoring the genuine play slowdown problem, I'm talking style here). It is definitely all dated and obsolete relics of the 80s, but I don't care. To me that IS cyberpunk as much as greedy corps, synth music, neon, and wild dyed hairstyles. Shadowrun has (to me) always been that plus magic/fantasy. Sure updating it in the 2070s to keep up with the times probably helps younger people get interested and keeps the line going... but it just isn't cyberpunk to me. Its just near-future sci-fi with magic and doesn't interest me at all.  Different strokes, and I'm the one that loses out. Then again, I've always loved thr universe more than the rules anyways.
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Aug 13, 2013 20:32
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Martello posted:Yes. See, I felt trying to follow the march of culture and technology was dumb because Shadowrun had already become so divorced from reality that it might as well continue along with all the 80s cyberpunk stuff. We're, what, seven years from the event that gave corporations extraterritoriality? The awakening happened two years ago. The world of Shadowrun never went through 9/11 and all the political reactions to it. Trying to bring the setting more in line with our real world only highlights just how far the setting has drifted from our real world over the years. Don't get me wrong, I think our world is getting more and more disturbingly Gibsonian as the 21st Century rolls on, and I would love to have a cyberpunk RPG that reflects our world, but I don't think Shadowrun should be that game. I don't mind, instead I actually enjoy the science fiction side of Shadowrun being as anachronistic as the fantasy side.
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Aug 13, 2013 20:42
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Forums Terrorist posted:Have technos ever not been subpar deckers? I remember that in 4th they were very lackluster as well, at least out of the gate. A decker has better matrix attributes and can improve them by stealing/looting a better deck and/or waiting for the wireless book, whatever programs he wants and for cheap, starts off throwing more dice at tests he cares about, needs to spend karma on fewer skills to maintain his place, can choose to slowly but surely hack in AR without fear of blackout/blackhammer, starts the game with an infinite service rating 4 sprite that can use his programs and matrix attributes that he'll probably quickly replace with a rating 6, and on and on. Technomancer's most important niche is they make much better NPCs than deckers do. Their living persona never changes (unlike a deck's attributes), I don't need to pick out programs, PCs don't get at least 50k of loot when they drop one, and Complex Forms lets them do many things without me having to fuss with tracking marks. They make great support NPCs for a PC decker since the Technomancer can buff him up/debuff enemies and hang back, allowing the PC decker to shine. A number of their powers are much more useful for an NPC than a PC, e.g. Tattletale is great against PCs but virtually useless for a PC. An NPC technomancer can blow his load of sprites and single-handedly screw with the entire team in a super-annoying fashion without necessarily putting them in mortal danger. Forums Terrorist posted:I'd say running silent should generate Overwatch; you have nothing to fear if you've nothing to hide. MilkmanLuke posted:I totally agree and, if you want a rule reason for it to deal with a Rules As Written motherfucker, Running Silent vs detection is determined with Logic+Sleaze. Sleaze is an illegal matrix action, which means Overwatch.
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Aug 13, 2013 22:28
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Actually technos could be the best riggers in 4E. But they were slightly worse than hackers and couldn't really have a subspecialty, unlike hackers which could be AMAZING at the Matrix and decent at something else.
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Aug 13, 2013 23:56
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Quick question about rigging. Is it possible to juryrig (pun not intended) a rigging system without a full blown control rig by just abusing the hell out of the Control Device matrix action on a drone you own?
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Aug 14, 2013 00:06
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Mechanically, how do I handle a bite attack? Specifically a bite attack from a troll with metal capped and sharpened teeth?
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Aug 14, 2013 02:53
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CNN Sports Ticker posted:Mechanically, how do I handle a bite attack? Specifically a bite attack from a troll with metal capped and sharpened teeth? It's the same as an unarmed attack, but if you are an rear end in a top hat GM you might require the character to use an exotic skill or otherwise default. Probably reduce Reach to -1 penalty.
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Aug 14, 2013 03:03
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Regarding wired vs. wireless: to me, it makes sense for wireless to be the standard for the shiny perfect world in an arcology, and for most day-to-day stuff. Meanwhile, doing real work on a heavily secured network requires bypassing all the checkpoints that separate it from the rest of the Matrix by physically connecting to hardware that is part of the network. Not to mention that there is plenty room for technobabel explanations of why a physical connection between your brain and a network is just better for serious work than wireless. That way, you have your shiny future wireless surface that the wage-slaves with SINs see, and the grimy wired underbelly that 'runners and serious corporate techs who actually know their poo poo see. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Aug 14, 2013 |
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Aug 14, 2013 03:26
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Bigass Moth posted:It's the same as an unarmed attack, but if you are an rear end in a top hat GM you might require the character to use an exotic skill or otherwise default. Probably reduce Reach to -1 penalty. Everybody bites things every day, so I wouldn't worry about defaulting or anything like that. Definitely the reach penalty though. Thanks!
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Aug 14, 2013 03:41
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CNN Sports Ticker posted:Everybody bites things every day, so I wouldn't worry about defaulting or anything like that. Definitely the reach penalty though. Thanks! Yeah, but the stuff you bite on an everyday basis usually isn't fighting back.
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Aug 14, 2013 03:53
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Man, don't make people specialize in each part of their body. Biting someone is an unarmed attack, how hard is that. vvvvvv: Good, good! Sorry for doubting you. You may retain your RPG card. Mystic Mongol fucked around with this message at 05:29 on Aug 14, 2013 |
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Aug 14, 2013 03:59
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I was just joking.
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Aug 14, 2013 04:04
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You ever wonder if the reason the Matrix is so weird, like the VR sculpting, the Techno stuff, and the you know, actualy plugging your brain directly into a computer is that it uses a lot of your spare brainpower to supply computing power? I was initially thinking of it as an explanation for why the frak anyone would ever be dumb enough to plug in, and the deckers decks are basically the I/O to allow them use their brains to give them that computational edge. Like, your deck isn't doing most of the work, your brain is. But then I was wondering about the sculpting, thinking that's how your brain tends to interpret data, so that's how you see it. I don't know. Right now all I know is that I could really use a sleep regulator, or Sustenance.
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Aug 14, 2013 05:02
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Martello posted:Yes. I disagree with basically all of this, and I'm someone who spent a lot of time singing the praises of SR4. SR5 in my mind has hit that balance between the semi-unique "Shadowrun" stuff (like, well, decking) and continuing to stay futuristic enough to be "sci-fi." Wireless Matrix hasn't gone away, and the overall technology is still more advanced enough then ours to work. I've been told we'll see much more of a mix of real world cursing and old school made-up obscenities. Shadowrun has never been the "try to be realistic" cyberpunk game. And good, because that argument reeks of the immersion and verisimilitude cancer that infects the hobby. As always, "I like the old thing" does not make someone a grognard. I mean look at your argument. You're all het up because they used the wrong word. That, if anything, is pretty fuckin' groggy.
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Aug 14, 2013 05:11
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They didn't take away "plug your brain into a computer and have virtual cybercombat" in 4E though, so it's kind of weird to me that people are talking about 5E like it somehow brought decking "back."
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Aug 14, 2013 05:16
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Kai Tave posted:They didn't take away "plug your brain into a computer and have virtual cybercombat" in 4E though, so it's kind of weird to me that people are talking about 5E like it somehow brought decking "back." Basically they brought back the barrier of entry and the need to commit to being a Decker, rather than "a Face with a tricked-out Commlink" or "PhysAd Super Ninja who hacks on the side". Basically 4e removed most of the allure of hacking by making it too ubiquitous.
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Aug 14, 2013 05:28
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That doesn't make even the slightest amount of sense to me given that nobody seems put out that anyone can have a sideline in, say, fighting or social stuff or sneaky stuff. I thought one of Shadowrun's selling points was supposed to be flexible archetypes. Also saying that a cyberpunk game made hacking too ubiquitous sounds pretty silly, I mean come on. And anyway, that doesn't really have anything to do with my point which is that if you wanted to plug your brain into a computer and hack the gibson in full hot-sim VR 4E already had you covered, including multiple ways a GM could plausibly force you to have to do that. Like, that isn't a thing that 4E excised in favor of all wireless, all the time.
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Aug 14, 2013 06:18
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Gobbeldygook posted:Matrix perception is completely broken and this approach doesn't fix it at all. I discussed my approach to torturing the Matrix perception rules into something usable in the last thread. tl;dr If you just have to make a single Matrix Perception roll that is compared to the roll of every icon in range that is Running Silent to spot them all, the RFID Vest problem goes away. A side effect of "running silently = overwatch" is that if a hacker can set a device on running silently and it isn't rebooted within ~85 minutes, it will automatically destroyed be by GOD. That's not broken or anything, but just realize you're giving hackers the power to blow up any device and send an FBI party van to anywhere they like. It would also be really bizarre if every single wireless device ever made came with an easy-to-use feature that was illegal to use. I think of running silently as being equivalent to running a pop-up blocker or NoScript. I have resolved the Matrix perception issue with an easy solution in my game. If someone does well on a matrix perception test, they find what they're looking for (assuming they beat the Running Silent/Hide roll if it's an opposed situation). Excepting rare situations, any mental effort beyond that is a total waste of time and a GM should feel bad for putting their players through it. And, as a side note, the RFID vest problem is a stupid one and I'm kind of surprised it's even an issue. Any player that tries to use it deserves to live in a world where hacking is basically impossible, where every marginally secured system is totally invisible because a literal hundred thousand similar devices are seeded throughout any area worth protecting from hackers. If a hacker can do it, a corporation can sure as hell do it and do it a lot better. Hackers burning out devices after an hour or so isn't very impressive when they can brick something in seconds. And who says the FBI shows up? Presumably GOD isn't staffed by idiots banging away on Speak-N-Spells. The whole point of convergence is that a well organized and efficient system has had time to gather a pile of actionable information about the target. It would presumably be pretty easy to tell that a Not Really Hacking situation is going on and maybe pass it along to the local beat cops to check out (which they may or may not ever do). Just because the rules are poorly spelled out doesn't mean the GM has to be an idiot and pitch common sense out the window. Of course, if they want to put more work into some kind of fake hacking situation to *actually* draw out the real Feds to a location...uh, so? A hacker can already upload a totally busted-and-known-by-authorities fake SIN into a harmless passerby's commlink and get the same thing. Moreover, how is that any different than a matrix version of a merc character dropping a few kilos of explosive into a parked car on a busy street as a distraction? And back to common sense. Easy solution to Running Silent. The matrix chapter full rules describe illegal hacker Cool Runnings, since it specifically mentions using Sleaze for its rules to make any sense, which only illegal hackers have anyway. For civvie, non-illegal versions of Running Man, spam-related noise penalties drop to -2, but they aren't actually hidden from active Matrix Perception tests from anything that matters. Now the civvie version of Silent Scope works exactly how you describe it thematically.
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Aug 14, 2013 07:20
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Here's my answer: stop playing like a bunch of antagonistic shits and make it workable with your GM if it's a problem. If you do the vest full of RFIDs the solution is "The GM tells you to stop being such an annoying little poo poo."
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Aug 14, 2013 07:27
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ProfessorCirno posted:Here's my answer: stop playing like a bunch of antagonistic shits and make it workable with your GM if it's a problem. If you do the vest full of RFIDs the solution is "The GM tells you to stop being such an annoying little poo poo." Pretty much. I've got a pretty zero tolerance policy for rules lawyering exploit bullshit at my table. I was always surprised to see people in forums complaining about Agent spamming with multiple nested commlinks and other crap like that in 4e. Either I trained my players well, or I just didn't have to deal with terrible people. MilkmanLuke fucked around with this message at 07:40 on Aug 14, 2013 |
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Aug 14, 2013 07:34
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Martello posted:But in 4th Edition they already made it so the hacker (which is what hackers are called, deckers is a stupid word) needed to come with on a run. And everyone having commilinks with agents and poo poo was both realistic and cool and made for a lot of poo poo the hacker could do. Not disagreeing completely, but the matrix rules in 4E were so loving complicated that I eventually stopped using them. And I sat through learning dwarf fortress without complaint, you know? 
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Aug 14, 2013 08:56
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Just going to throw this out there but gunnery via a remote weapon is logic plus gunnery.
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Aug 14, 2013 15:31
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Sorry to keep posting rules-lawyering technomancer questions, but should Technos be alowed to spend karma submerging during character creation? Rank 1 submersion costs 13 karma (10 + 3 * 1). Second, should technos get to spend leftover Special Attribute points from their metatype on Resonance (above 6) if they submerge at character creation?
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Aug 14, 2013 19:38
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I'd be tempted to say yes purely because technos are very meh in 5e so far.
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Aug 14, 2013 19:39
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I think they could submerge, but special attributes get spent before karma, so I don't think that part works, purely legally. GM might allow it, though.
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Aug 14, 2013 19:48
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