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Smudgie Buggler posted:I wouldn't even say fascism is/was an immune response to communism, or really anything we'd identify as 'left.' It's more reactionary to the Enlightenment - the fruits and values of which were only finally adopted wholesale in European public policy in the interwar period - than to any identifiable ideology like socialism. Yeah that's what fascists say, but they say a lot of things. If you look at what they actually did you see a lot Stalin in Hitler; he centralized the economy. He brought the state directly into everyone lives but did it in such a way that the capitalist hierarchy remained intact.
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Aug 15, 2013 05:05
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Rutibex posted:
No the rise of fascism is a response to lovely governance/awful macro-economic decision making in Europe. But to further a point home, "capitalism" is a loaded word with little actual meaning. You can probably count on one hand the countries which aren't "capitalist" by this point and they're all broke if not nightmares. The manichean capitalist/not-capitalist is kind of antiquated and not helpful in regards to policy/political thinking by this point.
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Aug 15, 2013 05:06
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Berke Negri posted:But to further a point home, "capitalism" is a loaded word with little actual meaning. You can probably count on one hand the countries which aren't "capitalist" by this point and they're all broke if not nightmares. The manichean capitalist/not-capitalist is kind of antiquated and not helpful in regards to policy/political thinking by this point. Capitalism totally exists bro; just becasue it's the dominate social structure doesn't mean that it is the only one. This post reminds me a a Zizek quote Zizek posted:"Think about the strangeness of today's situation. Thirty, forty years ago, we were still debating about what the future will be: communist, fascist, capitalist, whatever. Today, nobody even debates these issues. We all silently accept global capitalism is here to stay. On the other hand, we are obsessed with cosmic catastrophes: the whole life on earth disintegrating, because of some virus, because of an asteroid hitting the earth, and so on. So the paradox is, that it's much easier to imagine the end of all life on earth than a much more modest radical change in capitalism." HEGEL CURES THESES posted:Are you attempting to make the argument that Nazis picked a war with the US in order to benefit the US? You are on very thin ice here, historically. Moreover, while Nazi Germany wasn't communist, the particular kind of state-directed economic activity they engaged in wasn't untrammeled capitalism. It also destroyed the German economy. The Nazi worldview was also opposed to commerce, materialism, and the idea of exchange value, and many Nazis considered themselves anti-capitalist. Hitler's power grab also coincided with an uptick in Weimar Germany's fortunes, incidentally. It's possible that if Germany had been able to ride out the Depression, things would have improved for them. I simply do not see evidence of what you are saying in the historical record. Yes it wasn't capitalism but it maintained it's hierarchical structure, and with no opposition it would have decayed back into standard capitalism. The main driving force of fascist ideology is domination, social Darwinism. This is the same structure as capitalism. Rutibex fucked around with this message at 05:17 on Aug 15, 2013 |
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Aug 15, 2013 05:13
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Rutibex posted:Yeah that's what fascists say, but they say a lot of things. If you look at what they actually did you see a lot Stalin in Hitler; he centralized the economy. He brought the state directly into everyone lives but did it in such a way that the capitalist hierarchy remained intact. It's romantic to think of fascism as some sort of Ur-Disease in the body politic but authoritarianism is authoritarianism left or right. I wouldn't be surprised if in a hundred years people didn't distinguish between the two as we do with our Cold War/Post-WW2 sensibilities. Fascism as a sort of turbo-nationalist violence-fetish does stand out from other authoritarian groupings though, just in that its notable for being so devoid of genuine ideology.
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Aug 15, 2013 05:15
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Rutibex posted:Yes it wasn't capitalism but it maintained it's hierarchical structure, and with no opposition it would have decayed back into standard capitalism. quote:The main driving force of fascist ideology is domination, social Darwinism. This is the same structure as capitalism.
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Aug 15, 2013 05:23
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Rutibex posted:Yeah that's what fascists say, but they say a lot of things. If you look at what they actually did you see a lot Stalin in Hitler; he centralized the economy. He brought the state directly into everyone lives but did it in such a way that the capitalist hierarchy remained intact. Yeeeeees... and no. Look, when I say early 20th Century European fascism was not a reaction to communism per se but to the Enlightenment, I mean it was a reaction to deeper principles which heralded a cultural shift, a part of which manifested in the advent of communism. If you look at what fascism is inherently rebellious against, it's got very little do with Marxist-Leninist thought itself, but everything to do with the ground on which Marxism-Leninism sits. If fascist thought can be said to engage philosophy on any level (and it's debatable whether it does, at least deliberately), it engages with and stands opposed far more to Spinoza, Voltaire, and Locke than to Marx. It reaches back through the rise of socialist thought and attacks the 17th to early 18th Century philosophies which underpin it.
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Aug 15, 2013 05:30
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Berke Negri posted:It's romantic to think of fascism as some sort of Ur-Disease in the body politic but authoritarianism is authoritarianism left or right. I wouldn't be surprised if in a hundred years people didn't distinguish between the two as we do with our Cold War/Post-WW2 sensibilities. rudatron fucked around with this message at 05:37 on Aug 15, 2013 |
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Aug 15, 2013 05:31
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Rutibex posted:Capitalism totally exists bro; just becasue it's the dominate social structure doesn't mean that it is the only one. Capitalism is a loaded word because it doesn't actually have much historical constancy, in other words it has been tied up far too much in politics to be useful. What revolutionaries in the 19th century were railing against doesn't fit in the modern context for the developed world (some could even argue in the developing world). This is why we get into situations where right wingers denounce Obama as a socialist and hater of capitalism when one would be hard pressed to see that in actual policy. In a world of primarily mixed-economies with government intervention and welfare the historical term 'capitalist' doesn't really fit as it did like, hundred and fifty years ago. The American system under George W. Bush would be considered by someone in 1901 to be fairly socialist even if in comparison to most modern countries we wouldn't say the same thing. edit: rudatron posted:Liberal capitalism is authoritarian. The only that isn't authoritarian is pacifism, every other political ideology requires the imposition of legitimate force in order to guarantee the domination of that ideology in society (otherwise, it will fall to those that do). Authoritarianism I was talking about is actually a psychological/poli-sci term and not actually talking about general organizations where authority are important (authority is a fundamental social building block for better or worse) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarian_personality The most interesting research has picked up that sociopath/authoritarian leaders aren't uncommon, what's special is the personality types of the followers of said people. Berke Negri fucked around with this message at 05:43 on Aug 15, 2013 |
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Aug 15, 2013 05:34
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Basically, Fascism's solution to turmoil is a return to an artificial period of cultural greatness without major changes to pre-existing power structures. It is revolutionary in only the sense it does want to change society culturally but only to limited extent since it is bound attachment to past norms. Women are usually portrayed as perfect wives and mothers, reinforcing norms that already existed in order to establish a previous era of "greatness." There was a left strain of Nazism at one time, but it was purged very quickly after Strasser was expelled in 1930. The Nazis left the capitalism structure almost entirely untouched into the last years of the war when they had no choice to nationalized critical industries or face even quicker defeat. Mussolini had a similar relationship with Italian industry, as did Franco.
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Aug 15, 2013 07:07
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The level of Nazi control over industries during World War Two was absolutely pathetic. When Albert Speer was appointed Minister of Armaments and War Production in early 1942, he was shocked to discover that major armament plants were only working one shift, when compared to the round the clock shifts for industry of nearly every other country involved in the war. But you know, National Socialist and that juvenile "two sides of the same coin" argument.
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Aug 15, 2013 07:58
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LP97S posted:The level of Nazi control over industries during World War Two was absolutely pathetic. When Albert Speer was appointed Minister of Armaments and War Production in early 1942, he was shocked to discover that major armament plants were only working one shift, when compared to the round the clock shifts for industry of nearly every other country involved in the war. In a way it makes sense, because the traditional emphasis of right-wing ideology is on culture versus the left-wing emphasis on economics. Hitler revolution was a cultural counter-revolution against what he saw was the decadence and the chaos of the the Weimar period. Economic change was either accidental or heavily resisted until they had no other choice. I see Franco fitting in a very similar framework (looking at how Spanish society was restructured after the civil war) even if it gained power by virtue of being a military leader not a politician. I don't see any neo-fascist/neo-nazi parties changing economic structures in any meaningful sense either even if they despise the EU.
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Aug 15, 2013 08:06
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So how true are the fears of John "Gimli" Rhys Davies, the EDL and their compatriots that "white" Europeans will be a minority within the next century, and/or extinct within the next few centuries?Gimli posted:There is a demographic catastrophe happening in Europe that nobody wants to talk about, that we daren't bring up because we are so cagey about not offending people racially. And rightly we should be. But there is a cultural thing as well. By 2020, 50 per cent of the children in Holland under the age of 18 will be of Muslim descent Not sure why he says "Muslim descent", since that could mean anything from Dutch converts and Bosnians, to Sudanese, to Indonesians or Chechens. OwlBot 2000 fucked around with this message at 08:17 on Aug 15, 2013 |
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Aug 15, 2013 08:11
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OwlBot 2000 posted:So how true are the fears of John "Gimli" Rhys Davies, the EDL and their compatriots that "white" Europeans will be a minority within the next century, and/or extinct within the next few centuries? Aw drat it is John Rhys Davies a racist? gently caress I was rather fond of him.
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Aug 15, 2013 08:12
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OwlBot 2000 posted:So how true are the fears of John "Gimli" Rhys Davies, the EDL and their compatriots that "white" Europeans will be a minority within the next century, and/or extinct within the next few centuries? There is no escape from Eurabia. The birthrate of most immigrant population closes to that of the rest of the popular fairly quickly within a generation or two. In addition, the proportion between visible minorities and "whites" in Europe is still very small. Basically, Europe is dealing with an issue that America has been grappling with since its founding (and its still here). Also, Sliders was one of my favorite bad 1990s scifi shows, so that news made me sad. (Also, Jean Reno is pretty right-wing too, and John Carmack is deep libertarian/conservative FYI.)
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Aug 15, 2013 08:18
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Ardennes posted:The birthrate of most immigrant population closes to that of the rest of the popular fairly quickly within a generation or two. In addition, the proportion between visible minorities and "whites" in Europe is still very small. Basically, Europe is dealing with an issue that America has been grappling with since its founding (and its still here). That kind of rhetoric is almost defensible if you're saying, "Gosh, a small ethnic group of Frisians, Scots, Welsh or Cornish people with their own culture and language is dying out for demographic reasons, how sad", but it ignores several things. ONE, the loss of diversity in Britain has a lot more to do with the English and the ruling classes of each of these groups than it does with immigrants, and two, it ignores why people need to leave their home countries and move to Europe in the first place: Europe ruined and impoverished their own countries. But it's just absolutely insane when an American would say the same thing -- it's not their native land, it was built through the elimination of the people who originally lived in America, so to claim "we're being pushed out of our land" is tragicomic. This following video must have made some people explode from cognitive dissonance. NWS language https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2chIBe2cG7M OwlBot 2000 fucked around with this message at 08:27 on Aug 15, 2013 |
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Aug 15, 2013 08:23
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LP97S posted:The level of Nazi control over industries during World War Two was absolutely pathetic. When Albert Speer was appointed Minister of Armaments and War Production in early 1942, he was shocked to discover that major armament plants were only working one shift, when compared to the round the clock shifts for industry of nearly every other country involved in the war.
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Aug 15, 2013 08:24
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Ardennes posted:There is no escape from Eurabia. Pretty much. Europe as a whole never had a civil rights movement like the States did, let alone the idea (however vague) of a "melting pot" idea, which itself is only sort of a nebulously accepted thing in the States. edit: OwlBot 2000 posted:
Berke Negri fucked around with this message at 08:39 on Aug 15, 2013 |
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Aug 15, 2013 08:32
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HEGEL CURES THESES posted:That's not what I said, I said Nazism destroyed the German economy, which is true. I think if you want to get technical about it you can say it was Allied bombs that destroyed the German economy 
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Aug 15, 2013 08:58
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Full Battle Rattle posted:Juche being cover for something weird and evil is like throwing a bedsheet over a ghost and saying 'Now, no one will know that I have stolen a ghost!' I just now saw this and it's hilarious.
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Aug 15, 2013 10:03
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Omi-Polari posted:I think I've heard that more French troops died fighting against the Allies than with them. Whoever told you that was dead wrong. The French army lost many more troops in May 1940 alone than Vichy France did throughout its entire existence. Boofy fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Aug 15, 2013 |
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Aug 15, 2013 15:23
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Ardennes posted:Also, Jean Reno is pretty right-wing too poo poo like this. Dude you are the most North African-looking man in history, who are you trying to impress?
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Aug 15, 2013 15:41
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LP97S posted:The level of Nazi control over industries during World War Two was absolutely pathetic. When Albert Speer was appointed Minister of Armaments and War Production in early 1942, he was shocked to discover that major armament plants were only working one shift, when compared to the round the clock shifts for industry of nearly every other country involved in the war. Hitler and his cronies were so up their own asses about their military strength, that they had told the industries to keep on working on consumer goods. Because clearly all of Germany's enemies would quickly fall. It wasn't a "pathetic level of control" - they were explicitly told they wouldn't need to be controlled, and thus none was exerted at all til a while after Speer got in and was finally able to convince Hitler & Co.
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Aug 15, 2013 16:01
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Tony Fark posted:Whoever told you that was dead wrong. The French army lost many more troops in May 1940 alone than Vichy France did throughout its entire existence. Around 23:00-24:00. http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/MaxHa
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Aug 15, 2013 16:29
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Berke Negri posted:Capitalism is a loaded word because it doesn't actually have much historical constancy, in other words it has been tied up far too much in politics to be useful. What revolutionaries in the 19th century were railing against doesn't fit in the modern context for the developed world (some could even argue in the developing world). This is why we get into situations where right wingers denounce Obama as a socialist and hater of capitalism when one would be hard pressed to see that in actual policy. In a world of primarily mixed-economies with government intervention and welfare the historical term 'capitalist' doesn't really fit as it did like, hundred and fifty years ago. The American system under George W. Bush would be considered by someone in 1901 to be fairly socialist even if in comparison to most modern countries we wouldn't say the same thing. None of this invalidates the applicability or usefulness of the term capitalism, nor does it address the presence of historical continuities.
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Aug 15, 2013 16:37
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Fascism won't return, just anti-immigration and a slowing of LGBT right progress will be co-opted by various right parties. What do you think those UK billboard ads are for? They aren't aimed at illegal immigrants. It's the Tories telling people "Hey! we're not so hot on immigration either. Stop looking to those EDL\UKIP guys and fall back in line."
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Aug 15, 2013 17:33
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breaklaw posted:Fascism won't return, just anti-immigration and a slowing of LGBT right progress will be co-opted by various right parties. It definitely needs to be remembered that most of Europe needs LGBT rights progress pretty bad: 
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Aug 15, 2013 19:16
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Berke Negri posted:Capitalism is a loaded word because it doesn't actually have much historical constancy, in other words it has been tied up far too much in politics to be useful. What revolutionaries in the 19th century were railing against doesn't fit in the modern context for the developed world (some could even argue in the developing world). This is why we get into situations where right wingers denounce Obama as a socialist and hater of capitalism when one would be hard pressed to see that in actual policy. In a world of primarily mixed-economies with government intervention and welfare the historical term 'capitalist' doesn't really fit as it did like, hundred and fifty years ago. The American system under George W. Bush would be considered by someone in 1901 to be fairly socialist even if in comparison to most modern countries we wouldn't say the same thing. a) Marx studied the political-economy; it doesn't make sense to consider one without the other b) you can define capitalism as a normal social system and virus as a normal form of life and they will both evade your definitions. We still need to defeat them if we want to survive. c) who cares what dumbs think, whether in 1901 or now?
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Aug 15, 2013 23:02
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Install Windows posted:It definitely needs to be remembered that most of Europe needs LGBT rights progress pretty bad: Kind of shocking that the Russian Federation has managed to fall below Azerbaijan in the gay rights stakes. What's the red blob between Poland and Lithuania? I don't recognise the country.
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Aug 15, 2013 23:45
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Jedit posted:Kind of shocking that the Russian Federation has managed to fall below Azerbaijan in the gay rights stakes. Kaliningrad, Russia.
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Aug 15, 2013 23:48
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Jedit posted:Kind of shocking that the Russian Federation has managed to fall below Azerbaijan in the gay rights stakes. Keep in mind that these ratings are from BEFORE Russia effectively illegalized saying anything good about homosexuality publicly (and also before the UK and France authorized same-sex marriage, but just that alone is only good for bumping them both up a few percent) That is also Russia, the Kaliningrad Oblast.
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Aug 15, 2013 23:49
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Ardennes posted:Basically, Fascism's solution to turmoil is a return to an artificial period of cultural greatness without major changes to pre-existing power structures. It is revolutionary in only the sense it does want to change society culturally but only to limited extent since it is bound attachment to past norms. Now this might seem contradictory. I think that's a reasonable argument. But I also don't think fascism is simply backwards-looking. It is backwards-looking but I'd phrase it something like "let's boldly go forward into the past" complete with a programmatic and totalitarian system for organizing the entire social lives of its subjects. It's modernist while being anti-modernity. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Aug 16, 2013 |
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Aug 16, 2013 00:12
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Omi-Polari posted:
Would you say it's rather like how "fundamentalist Christianity" is in that way, modernist but rejecting modernity? The variants which have been around since the late 19th century that is.
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Aug 16, 2013 00:43
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Omi-Polari posted:The idea behind palingenesis is that it's not a return to the past per se, but the creation of an entirely new kind of society which contains the essence of the old. Watched a German documentary some years ago on Nazism as Artistic Vision or something to that effect (that I absolutely cannot remember the actual title of) that claimed that the Nazi contribution to prepping and launching the Second World War was the goal of returning Europe to Rome-inspired romanticized "unifying violence/barbarity," something something, Hitler's preferred grotesque Greek/Roman-inspired architecture being designed with how it would look thousands of years into the future as ruins a la the Parthenon or Colosseum, the use of the Roman salute, the repeating Eagle motif, with a distinctly local Germanic twist with the Nordic/Aryan, Nietzsche/Wagner flavoring etc. etc. i.e., yes: "Let's boldly go forward to complete the project of Are Ancient European (Roman) Heritage, which our German Culture (or X Culture) best represents via a direct lineage we know about (e: even in the usage of "The Third Empire" to describe the NS-State, ofc the first being Germanic Holy Roman Empire as "rightful" successor of Rome, second being yet another "true successor" of the HRE in the unified German Empire of 1871-1918, etc.) with the violence and slavery and exclusion and 'grandness' and all the rest included, using the tools of today such as, in the 1940s, the massive tank warfare and dive bombers and industrialized murder (rather than the ancient Spartan "cliff-based" eugenics and spear-and-horseman warfare)" e: albeit the New Rome "concept" is one that has been utilized over an over again in European society (European "barbarian" tribes successors nearly all having some sort of strange wish to re-create "The New Rome" after the collapse, Constantinople/Istanbul, Paris, London, Berlin, Moscow, etc.) but it took on and still takes on a very interesting particular form in Italy and Germany and now Greece.. and the equation of US with Rome also creates interesting parallels even without such a long and storied history to draw inspiration from, albeit this could partially explain the traditional weakness of a bona fide fascism in the US. poidinger fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Aug 16, 2013 |
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Aug 16, 2013 02:21
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I don't think you can call Constantinople a Rome wannabe. The Byzantine Empire wasn't an attempt at a New Rome. It WAS Old Rome, continued.
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Aug 16, 2013 03:14
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poidinger posted:Watched a German documentary some years ago on Nazism as Artistic Vision or something to that effect (that I absolutely cannot remember the actual title of) that claimed that the Nazi contribution to prepping and launching the Second World War was the goal of returning Europe to Rome-inspired romanticized "unifying violence/barbarity," something something, Hitler's preferred grotesque Greek/Roman-inspired architecture being designed with how it would look thousands of years into the future as ruins a la the Parthenon or Colosseum, the use of the Roman salute, the repeating Eagle motif, with a distinctly local Germanic twist with the Nordic/Aryan, Nietzsche/Wagner flavoring etc. etc. Fascism was really popular with the rich in the US before we joined on the side of the axis. WWII probably caused the US to dodge the fascist bullet not any sort of long history, the modern German state had only existed for a few decades at most so I don't think that really applies.
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Aug 16, 2013 03:21
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Install Windows posted:Would you say it's rather like how "fundamentalist Christianity" is in that way, modernist but rejecting modernity? The variants which have been around since the late 19th century that is. KomradeX posted:I think if you want to get technical about it you can say it was Allied bombs that destroyed the German economy
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Aug 16, 2013 03:39
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Smudgie Buggler posted:I don't think you can call Constantinople a Rome wannabe. The Byzantine Empire wasn't an attempt at a New Rome. It WAS Old Rome, continued. Well, turning Constantinople into Rome-Rome after the collapse of Rome-Rome was a sort of a New Rome rather than the old half-of-Rome set-up, but point taken.. I was trying to point more to the Ottoman (Sultanate of Rum) fascination more than anything SirKibbles posted:Fascism was really popular with the rich in the US before we joined on the side of the axis. WWII probably caused the US to dodge the fascist bullet not any sort of long history, the modern German state had only existed for a few decades at most so I don't think that really applies. well, yes, if we're limiting the modern German state to 1871 (so a "mere" half a century), but the Germanic peoples that make up the modern German state do have a long history spanning directly back to Rome (via Austrian "Vindobona," the HRE, etc.) that the Nazis demonstrably directly referred to over and over again (again, as mentioned "das dritte Reich," Eagle, salute, etc.) that the US does not really have the direct "benefit" of (outside of specifically European immigrant histories, the US Eagle & fasces all over gov't symbols and buildings, etc.) e: I mean the paean to Rome is right there: "Fascism" the term deriving directly from the Roman fasces e2: not to mention that the Business Plot =/ "facism being really popular among all the US rich" if that's what we're referring to. anti-FDR sentiment (which was very much in vogue among US rich at the time) also =/ fascism per se poidinger fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Aug 16, 2013 |
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Aug 16, 2013 04:03
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Berke Negri posted:Hell, so many native cultures were wiped out in Europe either through war or acculturation it's not too dissimilar -- you just have to push the clock back another 1500 years from the American discovery. Nationalism is all kind of a big lie where you arbitrarily put your finger on a timeline and go ", here. Here is where we became X people who are identified by y and look like z." but no one really thought in those terms until very recently.
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Aug 16, 2013 04:31
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HEGEL CURES THESES posted:I'd say that's a great description, because fundamentalism's core elements (text as literal story, appeal to science, etc) are all modern. This doesn't mean fundamentalist christianity is fascist, though, just that a whole lot of ideas that were begun around the same time have similar key concerns. Yeah to be clear I'm not saying "fundamentalist" Christianity is fascist, just that it comes out of the same quite modern concepts while claiming to reject modern things as corrupt.
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Aug 16, 2013 04:39
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poidinger posted:Well, turning Constantinople into Rome-Rome after the collapse of Rome-Rome was a sort of a New Rome rather than the old half-of-Rome set-up, but point taken.. I was trying to point more to the Ottoman (Sultanate of Rum) fascination more than anything I really feel like that it doesn't count until they pull together the all of the ethnic groups in the German state under the German flag. There really wasn't a national identity in terms of being German the various ethnic groups in Germany weren't really unified under a national German identity for all that long and that's super important for fascism. The US was lacking in a crown or a unified church but you can just as easily use the military and the US is literally built on conquest and slavery,we haven't not been at war for I think at the most 10 years,it's a fascists wet dream. You don't have to use Rome it's really loving helpful but not necessarily when your own nation is building it's own brand new empire just fine. I don't just mean the business plot ,I mean that the rich really liked the fascists because they'd not only kick the poo poo out of leftists and anyone trying to organize against Capital but they really hit a nerve with all of the imperialists in the states with their worship of war and conquest. The US differs from Europe in that it doesn't have that relationship with the Church and culturally it's severed itself from the crown so if it went fascist it'd be treading new territory, I'd expect alot of military worship the church would play a major role but I feel it'd be more subservient to the military compared to fascists in latin america or Franco. SirKibbles fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Aug 16, 2013 |
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Aug 16, 2013 04:44
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