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It's a conundrum. A parody of a game can totally be a game in its own right, so you want to make it good. But to parody White Wolf games, you'd have to make it uhhhh  More on the point, making a good game clashed with the intent of the parody in KPFS. Another game that criticized the violence in games was, well, Violence: The Roleplaying Game of Egregious and Repulsive Bloodshed. And it was made, intentionally, practically unplayable because the subject matter is really just that vile, and also to masterfully demonstrate the absolute stupidity that goes into a lot of game design decisions. I didn't even appreciate half the game until I started doing design on my own. It's less of a game and more of a weirdly formatted essay that makes fun of everything from the constant grimmer and darker tone games take to the entire premise of entering a location and exterminating everything inside it so you can steal poo poo and even to making things more mature and edgy by absolutely burying itself in juvenile nonsense. Even now, almost a decade and a half later, it strikes way too close to the mark.
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Aug 10, 2013 13:13
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ravenkult posted:It's not like you play Werewolf and think ''gee, I really am a werewolf and I'm taking this game super seriously guys.'' Pretty sure there are plenty of people who actually do, though.
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Aug 10, 2013 14:55
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Rulebook Heavily posted:It's a conundrum. A parody of a game can totally be a game in its own right, so you want to make it good. But to parody White Wolf games, you'd have to make it uhhhh
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Aug 10, 2013 16:04
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ravenkult posted:The thing I don't get about kpfs is that it's supposed to be a parody/criticism of murderhobo games like any White Wolf game ever, yet when reading actual plays about it or reviews, they gush about how funny and/or fun the game was and what genius game design is involved. I've read APs of some one-shots, and it seems that one-shots of KPFS are funny in the way that an episode of Beavis & Butthead is funny. It doesn't make you want to be the characters, unless you're a boy with incompetent parents.
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Aug 10, 2013 16:08
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As a real-world example, when 7E Call of Cthulhu was being talked about, I googled the layout guy to see what kind of work he'd done. I don't regularly do this, but the art in the 7e book was a big deal - the rules weren't expected to be that removed from a book I already own. If I'd seen anything on-par with misery index stuff, I'd have absolutely walked away.jivjov posted:Were I in charge of inverse World, I probably would have gone with including a small disclaimer that Inverse World and all authors and contributors thereof are not affiliated with and do not support Misery Index et all, and perhaps refraining from working with that layout guy in the future. Why should Mikan be foreced to acknowledge MI in his product? Even denial of endorsement is a type of association. People are going to look it up and associate it with Inverse World, and it will read as "writer claims no association with associates". It's like a "Have you stopped beating your wife?" scenario; A disclaimer would be tantamount to writing "I have stopped beating my wife" in the introduction. I realize this is dead horse territory, but I really wanted to get that off my chest. Gau posted:Likewise, I generally look down on people who engage or even like the Foglios, because they are pretty awful people. I know XXXenophile was kind of garbage, and they've done some style-jarring MtG art, but is there anything controversial there?
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Aug 10, 2013 16:53
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Rulebook Heavily posted:It's a conundrum. A parody of a game can totally be a game in its own right, so you want to make it good. But to parody White Wolf games, you'd have to make it uhhhh I think the best WW parody game would be a game about Vampire and werewolf society that was fun to play and had good lore.
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Aug 10, 2013 17:30
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moths posted:I know XXXenophile was kind of garbage, and they've done some style-jarring MtG art, but is there anything controversial there? 
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Aug 10, 2013 17:41
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I've heard plenty of rumors about their sexual hijinks, but that's no surprise to those familiar with their work, anyway. Nothing business-related, mind.
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Aug 10, 2013 18:00
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Rulebook Heavily posted:It's a conundrum. A parody of a game can totally be a game in its own right, so you want to make it good. But to parody White Wolf games, you'd have to make it uhhhh Freebase, which was included in the HoL suppliment Buttery Wholesomness, is a delightfully awful parody of LARPs in the exact same vein. Playing the game as written will literally get you arrested by the police for dealing drugs and/or attempted murder. http://www.squid.org/freebase.html (will remove link if this counts as  )
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Aug 10, 2013 18:44
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Aw man, it's missing the hand-signal graphics! Sigh. Back when this came out, my broad social group was composed of both first-year university students and late-high schoolers, because there was a bit of overlap already, and someone started a LARP, and someone invited their bored tenth-grader friends... I tell you, something in me died when I heard that the high school kids played HoL straight enough to have vicious rules arguments at lunch.
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Aug 10, 2013 19:10
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I posted the little rant below in the crowdfunding thread, and am bringing it here for discussion as suggested by Winson_Paine:thorsilver posted:Awhile back I posted in here moaning about missing the Cthulhu Wars KS by a couple hours and thereby missing all the goodies, and also the hugely reduced shipping/Customs costs for us Euros of backing the KS rather than pre-ordering the finished product. In general I'm worried about the industry shifting to Kickstarter as the main method of fundraising. It makes sense for very small indie projects and new faces in the industry that need a jump-start, but the more things shift to Kickstarter the more we are asked to subsidise risk for even quite large, well-known companies/designers, in the process giving up our consumer rights. Plus, a KS for a new game often provides huge bonuses when you back something, but those of us who don't hear about that something within that 30-day window are screwed out of good deals, exclusive goods that can have a significant impact on the game, and we may in fact never be able to buy the thing at all if it doesn't hit retail ever. This makes the standard KS advice of 'Don't use it like a store' ring pretty hollow if the loving game won't ever appear in a real store. The whole thing turns me off, frankly, and I can only imagine that potential newbies to the hobby would find this even more intimidating.
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Aug 15, 2013 08:08
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I feel like the whole model of gaming is shifting towards a more "episodic" format. Not that you didn't buy AD&D or GURPS or oWoD in installments, but barely anything today goes to print without planned expansions. This subscriber model is replacing the "buy and you have it" one, which creates much higher barrier-to-entry for people who weren't there on day one, and that brings me around to how this is relevant: After launch, it's easier to mine existing customers than to creating new ones. There are exceptions, some of the smarter and more forward-thinking companies have recruiter programs and have "deputized" fans to help teach the game in-stores. I'm re-learning Warmachine later this month through a guy in PP's program. GW used to have their Outriders community-organizers, and it's almost mandatory for TCG games that they have organized play of some sort. But after a few years of bloat, without such a program, you've created an impregnable wall of material. My sister asked me if I wanted Arkham Horror for Christmas; I looked at the bulk of expansions and told her to save her money. It's daunting as gently caress to an outsider, but it's cheaper and easier to produce additional content than design new games. The move toward Kickstarter makes sense because it perfect incentive for day zero purchasing, creates interest, and can generate a huge starter-pool of players to sell expansions to. The higher tiers and exclusives appeal to "gotta catch 'em all" customers who are going to start on the right foot with alt-sculpt miniatures, mini-expansions, fancy alternate cover, and all the exclusive limited edition paraphernalia. I recognize that I'm a sucker and fall into this group from time to time - but there are games I've skipped entirely because there was no (sane or affordable) way to get "everything". This character was a con exclusive, that equipment card came from the Kickstarter, or this miniature went to pre-orders only. It's a huge loving turn-off. And it's a shame, because they obviously don't see the customers they're losing with this poo poo. Missed sales are hard to gauge, because they produce no visible metrics. But it's stupid to assume they don't happen and there's nothing that can be done about it.
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Aug 15, 2013 12:16
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BGG posted a publisher diary from Level 99 Games, aka the guyquote:4. Do the Math in Advance The fact that he persevered without causing drama or not delivering the product, like the Glory to Rome Kickstarter, is really drat impressive. Hopefully he didn't have to sell his house or anything. This bit is what really made me respect the company, though: quote:In addition to our design philosophy, we have a way of doing business – moral and ethical principles. It would be easy to make more money by filling our games with scantily-clad characters or creating rare, expensive exclusives, but we want to put fans ahead of profits and take the high road to success, to make a game that you don't have to pay through the nose to play and that you can show to your family without blushing. We publish our rulebooks in advance of the games debut, and offer print-and-play "lite" editions so that gamers can try what we are making before they spend money on it. I'm glad that they're not catering to the creepy minority (I hope it's a minority), especially given the anime style that they tend to use for the game. But basically, Level 99 Games seems to be good people.
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Aug 15, 2013 14:16
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On the topic of the KS thread and that quite excellent BattleCON quote; Wrath of Kings provoked attention in the KS thread for basically being the sleaziest ball in a while. Now, I'm not going to drag that derail in here in full. I'm instead going to talk about how this relates to the minis industry and my oh-so-hopeful role in it. Basically, I've become 100% fed up with the situation for about a dozen reasons in addition to the obvious ones. For a while now, I've had a miniatures game in my head (and am now making it for the August contest thread), and one of my primary objectives with it is to do better. I want multiple bodytypes and non-sexualized posing, so I began making inquiries for sculptors ready, willing and able to do it. I was told that what I was asking simply would not happen. Full stop. After the third or so straight no answer, I really started paying attention as to why they said it. The reasons were pretty varied, all told, but most of them have to do with sheer inertia in the hobby. The first problem, and what I was told would be the most difficult, would be simply finding a sculptor who was able to do it. Mini wargaming sculptors are a niche within a niche, and they make for themselves their comfortable niches within that. This means that many, many sculptors simply don't practice making anything but those one or two bodytypes they're familiar with. Certainly they follow the art direction, but it alone doesn't explain it; I myself own a model from Privateer Press which went from cool art of an elf-like woman reaching behind her for her giant fuckoff sword to a model which is running her hands through her hair and inner thigh in a silly come-hither pose. (Lanyssa Ryssyl, if you care to look it up.) It simply doesn't occur to many artists in the hobby to not do this automatically. Assuming I did find a sculptor who was able and willing, my next problem would involve inertia from the hobbyists and building a community which would be willing to accept not having their women models be sculpted around their penis, so to speak. The hobby has a lot of inertia, more than RPGs and their myriad social issues, and have longer to become entrenched and well used to the fact that the wargaming hobby is something people treat as a private matter, or which is far enough off the pop-culture radar that they can just revel in stuff that wouldn't be accepted elsewhere. Even the massive PR-success that is 40k and its various games hasn't changed the audience of the tabletop game significantly. This is such a problem that Games Workshop tries to both cater to and actively combat it; Stores carrying GW products must follow a license which includes special measures for family friendliness in the storefront, but they don't really change their model line to follow suit in all cases. Assuming I did find a sculptor and a community - the latter of which I'm finding easier - the third would be that all entrenched markets have equally entrenched opinions, and that includes things like "the hobby is FOR men", "sex sells" and "our customers are a little ashamed of their hobby anyway" - and yes, they really do just read like justifications for why it's hard for a dude not to be a creeplord. But this goes beyond just the community and straight into the business angle of things. Swathes of the customer base and the potential customer base are simply ignored, not because of post-facto justifications like those but because trying to capture markets is risk, and you don't want to risk a business. And if I were to start it up myself, I'd be taking a bigger risk than usual by trying to capture a market which might not really exist. If people gave up on minis wargaming a long time ago due to the many problems in it, and I know oh so many people who have, my one game probably won't change that overnight. I think I can overcome the community and risk angles, eventually. Options like Kickstarter (which I can't participate in directly, but it would be my preferred venue) can do a lot to both overcome risk and reach customers, and I can at the very least not directly encourage some attitudes. But the more practical problem I have is that the sculptors I talked with were right. I have not found a single one. I'm not soliciting people at the moment, so don't try to send me an avalance of contact mails or nothing. But man, I had no idea that a simple stance on modelling could lead to trying to overcome this much bloody inertia.
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Aug 15, 2013 16:02
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Do it! At least where I live, nerds, despite their reputation, are a very female-positive demographic. Sure there are creepers, but that's true everywhere. I was actually surprised when I first started reading about trad games online to see that nerds have this reputation because all my exposure to nerds before that showed them to be much less likely to be wannabe-pickup artists and creepy sexists, although there were certainly one or two. If you can find a good sculptor and if your game is good, you'll succeed. That won't mean you'll overthrow the way things are (although I wish you could), but that you will get customers based on your stance. Lots of people want to play nerdgames with their girlfriends and putting the plastic tits away can only help.
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Aug 15, 2013 16:31
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Gau posted:Likewise, I generally look down on people who engage or even like the Foglios, because they are pretty awful people. Let me join the chorus of people who want more information on this. I've met the Foglios briefly, at Comic-Con, and they strike me as nothing more then Ed Greenwood-level perverts who like drawing and talking about loving.
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Aug 15, 2013 16:51
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Ettin posted:Come to think of it... Paranoia rushes to mind... Ghostbusters, the source material is satire, it's hard to remember that at this late date... There were satirical sourcebooks/adventures for Toon... GURPS Goblins... Really, Paranoia is the king here.
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Aug 15, 2013 18:04
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JDCorley posted:Paranoia rushes to mind... Basically what you are saying is SJG and WEG are and were (respectively) awesome. EDIT: This is also the official position of the SA TG forum.
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Aug 15, 2013 18:59
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Rulebook Heavily posted:stuff about the minis market I didn't live through what you just did, but do consider HeroClix. HeroClix is a miniatures game, but it's sold and marketed more like a toy, one you can give to your nieces and nephews without blushing. Somebody sculpted those . . .
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Aug 15, 2013 20:03
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Spawn of Fashan was a print media troll that was a satire on all the AD&D alikes in the early 80s. Alma Mater was a send-up of high school and was one of the first games ever booted from Gencon...
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Aug 15, 2013 20:09
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Violence! The RPG is a pretty good Satire of RPGs. So is HOL by White Wolf.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:31
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homullus posted:I didn't live through what you just did, but do consider HeroClix. HeroClix is a miniatures game, but it's sold and marketed more like a toy, one you can give to your nieces and nephews without blushing. Somebody sculpted those . . . Plus there's Dota2 hero clix coming soon and while that game can be a bit of a drag it's got some amazing Character design, both in art and lore.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:45
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Rulebook Heavily posted:...I think I can overcome the community and risk angles, eventually. Options like Kickstarter (which I can't participate in directly, but it would be my preferred venue) can do a lot to both overcome risk and reach customers, and I can at the very least not directly encourage some attitudes. But the more practical problem I have is that the sculptors I talked with were right. I have not found a single one... Wouldn't it work if you secure a sculpture who wouldn't have to do any work until / if the funds come in from KS? Basically, prove there is a market first, then do the work?
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Aug 15, 2013 20:47
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Fiendish Dr. Wu posted:Wouldn't it work if you secure a sculpture who wouldn't have to do any work until / if the funds come in from KS? Basically, prove there is a market first, then do the work? It's not a matter of securing a sculptor, but of finding one that meets my requirements.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:54
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Design a miniatures game using precious moments dolls. Bam instant success.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:56
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moths posted:The move toward Kickstarter makes sense because it perfect incentive for day zero purchasing, creates interest, and can generate a huge starter-pool of players to sell expansions to. The higher tiers and exclusives appeal to "gotta catch 'em all" customers who are going to start on the right foot with alt-sculpt miniatures, mini-expansions, fancy alternate cover, and all the exclusive limited edition paraphernalia. I recognize that I'm a sucker and fall into this group from time to time - but there are games I've skipped entirely because there was no (sane or affordable) way to get "everything". This character was a con exclusive, that equipment card came from the Kickstarter, or this miniature went to pre-orders only. It's a huge loving turn-off. Well, for what it's worth I'm sure as hell making myself visible as a lost costumer in this case. I doubt anything will come of it, but I've made my displeasure known through the appropriate channels. I think it's likely to get worse before it gets better; as we've seen many times before, grognards are not exactly welcoming to newbies as it is. I worry that this trend will benefit the hardcore as you describe, but drive off the potential newcomers, leaving tabletop gaming to become even more of a shrinking demographic that's entirely impenetrable to the new or the curious. For my part I'm swearing off games that do this, just like I no longer buy videogames that have pre-order exclusive game elements. That poo poo just makes it so normal people can't ever experience the totality of the game, only the hardcore can, which is a huge turn-off and just not fun or nice at all.
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Aug 15, 2013 22:01
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Kickstarter is kind of the only new thing in the abysmal slide that the RPG hobby's been in since the d20 boom ended. It's fine to grouse about it, I have my own problems with it, but honestly there is no reason for anyone to put their artistic and game-design attention to RPGs without knowing they're going to be getting paid what they want up front. For other things (card games, mini games) I'm not as knowledgeable so won't comment, but for RPGs Kickstarter has been an unalloyed good thing because it's the only growing thing about the hobby.
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Aug 15, 2013 22:28
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Kickstarter (well, crowd funding in general really, but let's be honest that's 95% KS) is quite notable for RPGs because, frankly, the hobby isn't all that big, there's only so many venues that sell non-D&D RPGs (and probably fewer every year), and most RPGs have lovely sales numbers. What something like Kickstarter does is let a company get both funding for a book ahead of time (important when a lot of companies are run by freelancers out of a garage), provide some early low-risk marketing, and provide realistic numbers into how many people would actually want to buy your work so you aren't ambushed by a $50,000 failure. Beyond that, the fact kickstarter allows people to donate well beyond what a reward's worth simply because they like a work or a particular company/creator synchronizes really well with the fact that RPG fandom is small and emotionally invested and would know their donation or investment would have tangible effect. Sure it's a complete sea change in how small press RPGs are going to made in the future, but it's single handedly allowed a lot of otherwise niche and risky games to be produced (for better or worse) and there's no way it's going to become less prevalent over time, yeah.
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Aug 15, 2013 23:21
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You're all right that Kickstarter's been good for RPGs, but the complaint doesn't really apply to RPGs in the first place (and I doubt that moths/thorsilver were talking about them). There's literally no reason not to put a PDF on DriveThruRPG once it's made, so you don't have to worry about never being able to get the game again. Board games don't have easy digital versions with no overhead - even if the manufacturer were to go to the trouble of putting together a print & play version, that's a pain in the butt (plus you'd miss out on any interesting miniatures or other game pieces).
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Aug 15, 2013 23:32
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Even as a creator, I'm getting tired of the exclusives and the 30 day backing window and everything else. My next kickstarter is going to be for art and layout budget only. No physical books, no shipping, no huge stretch goals, nothing fancy. Backers will get the pdf and whatever other digital things their backer tier receives, and all backers will have a code to order the physical book on DrivethruRPG/Amazon/wherever minus the cost of the pdf. The full rules of the game will be available once you back it, the only thing that won't already be finished is the art and layout and things I need money for. I won't need to bother with fulfillment, backers won't have to wait on me for their books. A Kickstarter like that will probably never receive crazy amounts like the board game and minis Kickstarters, but it's much less of a hassle for every person involved.
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Aug 15, 2013 23:37
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I think game developers are still sorting out what Kickstarter is really good for. We've seen a few big failures, and some big successes, but nothing that really indicates people are going to keep going in for enormous projects. What amounts to pre-orders for books, card games, and more traditional sorts of board games? Sure. An unlimited number of full-blown miniatures games, especially when backers of earlier ones realize that they're only one of a handful in their area code that did? Probably not. I have to wonder how much they're actually making off that new Cthulhu board game, between the enormous, complex figures and apparent reticence to ship or produce overseas.
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Aug 16, 2013 00:03
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Rulebook Heavily posted:It's not a matter of securing a sculptor, but of finding one that meets my requirements. ... Watch them probably do all that poo poo you don't want anyway.
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Aug 16, 2013 00:38
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Mikan posted:My next kickstarter is going to be for art and layout budget only. No physical books, no shipping, no huge stretch goals, nothing fancy. Backers will get the pdf and whatever other digital things their backer tier receives, and all backers will have a code to order the physical book on DrivethruRPG/Amazon/wherever minus the cost of the pdf. The full rules of the game will be available once you back it, the only thing that won't already be finished is the art and layout and things I need money for. I won't need to bother with fulfillment, backers won't have to wait on me for their books. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with a "small" Kickstarter - I've backed a few that have been like "welp I need $300" and they made it with minutes to spare and all 13 of us who backed it were happy. If you accidentally make $50,000 with such a request, put all the money in your back pocket and walk away, don't feel like you need to do any stretch goals or other weird things. It's a free country.
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Aug 16, 2013 01:17
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I will admit that I'm a little gobsmacked by the idea that one of the stumbling blocks to making miniatures of female characters that don't look like they were pulled out of a Frazetta painting or some dude's semi-pornographic Deviantart isn't just "oh well that won't sell" (which is the answer I would expect to hear from people) but "there just aren't any sculptors who know how to make lady figures that aren't in full cheesecake mode."
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Aug 16, 2013 01:55
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Rulebook Heavily, have you talked to Victoria Lamb? I imagine it's likely she wouldn't want to do work on commission given that she has her own successful miniature line, but perhaps she has some ideas or contacts that could be helpful.
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Aug 16, 2013 02:14
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It really sounds like you're going about this the wrong way. You should be looking for a CONCEPT ARTIST to create your non-sexytime characters, and then contracting a sculptor to sculpt based on the concept art. Your art briefs and contracts then stipulate that any deviation from the concept art must be approved by you. Quality professional sculptors will not turn down work because "it's not sexy enough", lovely amateurs might.
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Aug 16, 2013 03:56
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I dunno, his example about the Privateer Press sculpt that started out as a sensible figure in a sensible pose and then ended up like a come-hither Herbal Essences commercial makes it sound like the problem lies on the sculpting side, not the conceptual side. You can stipulate whatever you want in your contract but if everyone you approach shoots you down because they won't or can't do the work you're asking of them then all the stipulations in the world aren't going to get you anywhere. I'm sure there must be sculptors out there capable of not instinctively making lady miniatures that you couldn't show mom without an awkward conversation ensuing, but you might have to look further afield than the tabletop gaming hobby to find them.
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Aug 16, 2013 04:26
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At the same time, if Privateer Press wasn't interested in the sculpt that was produced, they would have told him what they wanted changed, and to fix it if he actually wanted to be paid for the work. They're an employer, not a patron. The problem here is a random Kickstarter probably isn't going to be anywhere near as lucrative as a job from one of the big companies, so the sculptor has a lot more room to consider the project and decide that it isn't worth leaving his comfort zone for. Bieeanshee fucked around with this message at 05:02 on Aug 16, 2013 |
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Aug 16, 2013 04:59
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Kai Tave posted:I dunno, his example about the Privateer Press sculpt that started out as a sensible figure in a sensible pose and then ended up like a come-hither Herbal Essences commercial makes it sound like the problem lies on the sculpting side, not the conceptual side. You can stipulate whatever you want in your contract but if everyone you approach shoots you down because they won't or can't do the work you're asking of them then all the stipulations in the world aren't going to get you anywhere. If that change was made, the art director approved it. When you commission a sculpt the sculptors makes what you tell them to or they don't get paid. If a change needs to be made because of technical limitations (such as a pose not being viable) then it's approved by the art director. There's not enough demand for this kind of work for real professionals to turn down paying gigs. I've worked with quite a few mini sculptors in-house and freelance and not once did we get told "that's not sexy enough". If nothing else there are several Chinese sculpting houses that will make anything you want on the cheap. They're just not as consistent and often take longer to turn around because of multiple revision rounds.
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Aug 16, 2013 05:01
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Nostalgia4ColdWar fucked around with this message at 04:12 on Mar 31, 2017 |
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Aug 16, 2013 05:29
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