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Trainmonk posted:??? I think you're missing the point. ANY abuse is bad, and we see loads of it in the media. Ought we eliminate it to save anybody being triggered by it? Spousal abuse, verbal abuse, beating your child, there's quite a lot you can do to people to hurt them that isn't murder or rape. Edit: Guy before me said it better.
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Aug 15, 2013 21:56
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You guys ain't gonna change Trainmonk's mind. They don't want to see rape in any media ever, in any context, for any reason. Period. They've made this pretty clear...prahanormal posted:"This [male] character is the badmans because he rapes/raped a woman" is such a lovely, overused trope in general. I get that they're trying to The article says the the film setup is revealed after the scene.
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Aug 15, 2013 21:56
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Trainmonk posted:My repulsion comes from the way it hurts people, not the feelings of discomfort. As far as I'm concerned, depictions of rape are careless, hurtful, ignorant aggressions towards innocent people. This is my point, though: I'm in a relationship with someone who (because of past trauma) is extremely upset by the depiction of things like rape and sexual abuse. I don't begrudge her that. I told her she probably shouldn't watch Twin Peaks, because it's fundamentally about a teenage girl being victimized and abused by men. At the same time, I don't think there's anything wrong with Twin Peaks. I feel it's one of the best television shows ever written. I don't begrudge it its subject matter or content. I don't think David Lynch has an obligation to make things my girlfriend can watch without getting upset. I think if you took out anything to do with implicit or explicit parental sexual abuse, uncomfortably coercive sexual power dynamics, and sexual assault it wouldn't be about the same things or wouldn't be as effective in conveying those things. Sensitivity to victims and the desire for artistic freedom needn't be exclusive, individual pieces of art aren't obliged to single-handedly fix rape culture, and simply discussing or depicting something at all without any consideration for purpose or context doesn't mean that thing is in any way being promoted. I think it'd be fallacious to suggest that rape is in any way normalized by our media the way that non-sexual violence (which is essentially omnipresent) is; depictions of rape are far more likely to create controversy and be seen as taboo. I apologize for perpetuating an uncomfortable derail, too. That's my piece.
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Aug 15, 2013 21:57
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Miltank posted:I don't think it is fair to criticize a work of art for succeeding technically within its medium. The focus of Hotline was "you do these things because you are told to, you keep doing them because you like it." I'm not trying to do that- but if a game's point is that it's wrong to enjoy something, then it's relevant that the creators of the game were the ones who went through the trouble of making violence enjoyable. This is besides the point anyway, because I don't think "It's wrong to enjoy fictionalized violence" is really the point of HLM.
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Aug 15, 2013 21:59
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Pretty sure the ESRB rating for HM2 will note that it contains rape, so it may already have a "trigger warning"
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Aug 15, 2013 21:59
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voltron lion force posted:The article says the the film setup is revealed after the scene. I know. I'm kind of hoping that there will be some sort of contextual stuff before this scene in the final game. It's totally possible that things play out differently in the full game.
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Aug 15, 2013 21:59
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prahanormal posted:I know. I'm kind of hoping that there will be some sort of contextual stuff before this scene in the final game. It's totally possible that things play out differently in the full game. Ah, I see. I guess I just figured, given the setup, that the lack of context leading up to the reveal is kinda the whole point. Also keep in mind that this is part of game's tutorial. In theory not a lot happens before this.
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Aug 15, 2013 22:01
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prahanormal posted:I know. I'm kind of hoping that there will be some sort of contextual stuff before this scene in the final game. It's totally possible that things play out differently in the full game. I hope not. The rape is an emotional jump scare that would be completely pointless without the illusion of authenticity. Edit:VV 
Miltank fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Aug 15, 2013 |
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Aug 15, 2013 22:02
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Uh I think I made my point. I'm not going to spend a bunch of time arguing theoretics on an offhand comment that has little to do with my actual focus.
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Aug 15, 2013 22:04
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FYAD sleeper agent spotted Has Cactus made mention of how long this game is supposed to be?
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Aug 15, 2013 22:09
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It is described in the OP as the concluding half but I don't know if that was sourced or if it was just talk. What I think would be really cool is randomly generated levels.
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Aug 15, 2013 22:12
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Agent Kool-Aid posted:Given how ~gamers~ tend to react to women saying anything at all in the videogame industry, I would be doing the same thing. Except it's actual disagreements and discussion about the article being deleted. There was a single comment about her as a person and that got (rightly) jumped on by people over both sides of the talk. Can't blame Reddit for everything dude, there are people legitimately over-defensive about women and how delicate they might be!
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Aug 15, 2013 22:50
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polish sausage posted:^^^both of the janitors were based off of the two developers, who are both male. Whoops. Didn't realize that. Score another point for Ichi the Killer parallels.
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Aug 15, 2013 23:06
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100 loving posts, think this game has come out... Oh, no, guess not. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 16, 2013 00:42
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Always bet on rape chat.
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Aug 16, 2013 00:46
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Am I correct in believing that what is in the "soundtrack" is in the game files? I thought that was what someone said at some point but I can't remember. I kinda want to make a cd to listen to at some point.
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Aug 16, 2013 01:05
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From the first game? Yeah, all the music should be in the game folder as .ogg files.
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Aug 16, 2013 01:28
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poptart_fairy posted:Except it's actual disagreements and discussion about the article being deleted. There was a single comment about her as a person and that got (rightly) jumped on by people over both sides of the talk. Can't blame Reddit for everything dude, there are people legitimately over-defensive about women and how delicate they might be! Maybe it only looks like there was a single comment about her because all of the very bad ones were deleted before you saw them? That seems likely unless you've been refreshing the page all day.
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Aug 16, 2013 01:38
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Scylo posted:Maybe it only looks like there was a single comment about her because all of the very bad ones were deleted before you saw them? That seems likely unless you've been refreshing the page all day. I saw the discussion from the moment the article went up, dude. Even poo poo as basic as "are we getting a more gameplay orientated preview?" got snipped. This is the first, and only time, PCG have done this with an article - not a single article previously had the bullshit "keep on topic" rule being enforced. MRA are an easy excuse to use but it really isn't the case here.
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Aug 16, 2013 01:59
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voltron lion force posted:You guys ain't gonna change Trainmonk's mind. They don't want to see rape in any media ever, in any context, for any reason. Period. They've made this pretty clear... That's not an unusual stance for many people to take. Even when there is ample evidence to the contrary, many people don't like it when media appears to exploit a group they represent. They often have an emotionally charge reaction to these types of media portrayals regardless of its stance on the subject matter. This doesn't make them bad people. It only makes them human. It's human to give into irrational feelings. This isn't to say Hotline Miami 2 is full of depth and complexity in the themes it explores. It hasn't been released it and we've only seen a small part of the final game. But, the first game raised great questions about the narrative that frames the violence performed in videogames. We do ourselves a great disservice to ourselves by not being objective critical thinkers and instead giving into gut reactions about Hotline Miami 2. For example, Feminist writer and activist, Betty Friedan, was critical of Jonathan Demme's 1991 film, "Silence of the Lambs." She was unhappy not only with the gruesome images of dead women but also of the overarching narrative of the main character undergoing severe trauma. She believed the movie exploited the suffering of women in order to generate Oscar buzz and ticket sales. From what I've read of her works, Friedan (who passed away in 2006) came across as a very intelligent and well-learned woman. From a cursory glance, Silence of the Lambs condemns violence against women and the objectification of women. The main character, Clarice Sterling, appears to be an intelligent character that overcomes a past trauma and ultimately defeats the main villain of the film. Yet, Friedan was very unhappy with the movie. While she acknowledged its artistic merits, she was deeply upset with the violent depiction of women being skinned alive. Let's have a look at what Betty Friedan said about the movie in an interview with Playboy Magazine. Here's an excerpt of their interview from the book Interviews with Betty Friedan by Janann Sherman: Playboy Interview posted:
Is Friedan correct in thinking the movie is ignorant of how it depicts its female characters as passive victims? Did Demme and the producers rely on shocking scenes of violence to generate buzz without giving thought to how it depicted women? Let’s take a deeper analysis of Silence of the Lambs and see what Demme was trying to accomplish with the movie. We should look past the script and see how the film medium is used to tell a story. Let's see what film techniques Demme uses to convey the movie's theme to the audience. Silence of the Lambs is a modern retelling of Little Red Riding Hood. This fairy tale is often seen as a coming of age story. The red hood is often linked with menstruation or a loss of virginity. The wolf in the story is seen as a sexual predator.  In the above image, you see the main character, Clarice, surrounded by men wearing red. This image forms a ‘red hood’ around her. The color red is used throughout the film to signify the loss of innocence and the slow maturation of a woman. The color red is also linked with blood. One of the strange things about the film is that blood and gore are largely implied until Hannibal’s brutal escape. When Hannibal beats his guards, his white clothing is stained with blood. This is mirrored with Clarice closing in on Buffalo Bill. It’s a point of no return similar to losing one’s virginity. Metamorphosis is not only a key part of Buffalo Bill’s character but also of Clarice’s. The death’s head moth is linked to both of them. She is the naïve girl who undergoes a major transformation through the course of the story. Sexuality is linked to this transformation. Despite her inexperience, she is an important part of tracking a sexual predator. When semen is thrown at her, Hannibal finally agrees to work with her. In a way, he becomes a teacher for her as she enters a more sexually charged world. Demme also addresses how the media makes celebrities out of serial killers. This media hype often overshadows the lives of the killer's victims. These victims were people at one point before being reduced to footnotes on a serial killer's profile. Clarice finds out Buffalo Bill's whereabouts through investigating the life of his first victim. She learns what kind of person she was and how her friends and family have suffered since her death.  Silence of the Lambs is also about the power of the male gaze. When Clarice talks with a man, such as her FBI superior, she is often shown as uncomfortable and nervous. Demme uses point of view shots to great effect in these scenes. When he shows us Clarice’s POV, we feel the full gaze of the man upon her. When we see through the man’s eyes, we notice how uncomfortable Clarice is when talking to him. She looks away from the camera, glances slightly off the center, and avoids eye contact. She is clearly uncomfortable with talking to her male FBI superior. In over the shoulder shots, Clarice usually looks past the man shown in the foreground and into the camera/audience.  Much of this has to do with Demme linking the male gaze with the horror genre. Many horror films use POV shots of the killer tracking their victim. The victim, more often than not, it a vulnerable young woman who may end up the subject of violence. Demme is well aware that this is a genre that builds itself on sexually charged violence against women. Buffalo Bill tracking his victims is often shown in a first person view through his night vision goggles. Both Bill and the audience are getting off on this sexually charged violence. Demme links us with Bill and the power of his gaze by showing his point of view. Bill is eventually killed by Clarice overcoming her inner fears and shooting Bill/audience and ending his gaze.  However, no one has a more and powerful disturbing gaze than Hannibal Lecter. Shots of him talking with Clarice feature only a glass sheet separating the two. Not unlike Clarice, we feel the full gaze of Hannibal Lecter. Lecter is also well aware of the power of the gaze. Here is a very important exchange between Clarice and Hannibal: Covet Scene posted:
Hannibal believes that the act of murder is inconsequential in comparison the act of looking. The ability to look and covet is capable of great evil. It shows that anyone is capable of using their gaze to commit acts of violence. Hannibal’s escape involves not only switching clothes with a wounded police officer but also his face. Remember, he describes his backstory as "happening to the world" as opposed to an event "happening to him" and changing him into a killer. He becomes a doppelganger that hides in plain sight. In the very last shot of the film, we see him disappear into the crowds in the Biminis. This leaves the lingering image of a monster hiding among the crowds of people. He could be any one of them. How did all these themes and images go over Freidan's head? Demme's views on the male gaze and sexual violence would be very much in line with Freidan's writings. Much of this is dialogue that is told directly to the viewer. You don't need critical analysis of the film's visuals in order to understand its themes. Is Freidan an idiot who wasn't capable of understanding the movie's intent? I don't think so since she is a well-educated woman. I think Freidan had a gut reaction to the imagery which prevented her from deeply analyzing the movie. If you have a preconceived idea of a film or a particualr scene then it's going to be very difficult to give it critical analysis. She wouldn't be the first to do so in the film industry. Director Lee Daniels was very upset with Tarantino's Django Unchained and its use of the word ‘friend of the family.’ This is a movie where a free slave kills many slave owners and frees his wife. It utilizes German (and in turn, Norse mythology which has been hijacked by white supremacists) to ironic effect. Its main antagonists are not overtly racist KKK organizations but rather black slaves who side with their master. Yet, Daniels (as well director Spike Lee) was unhappy to see a period he saw as his people’s Holocaust used as entertainment. Are they unhappy with Tarantino’s over the top portrayal of the slavery era in America? Are they unhappy money is being made off an era where blacks were enslaved and seen as subhuman? Are they drumming up attention for their own films? Are they upset that Tarantino has been able to not only easily secure funding for his films but also win great commercial and critical acclaim? I wouldn't be surprised if it’s all or any of these reasons. People are complex and full of difficult emotions. Rape in film is no stranger to controversy. When rape is used for comedic or ironic effect, its use often overshadows discussion of what it is supposed to represent. Stanley Kubrick and Quentin Tarantino are two filmmakers who have been criticized for the sexually charged violence in their films for comedic effect. Many critics at the time (and to this day) believed they used rape to merely shock the audience like a low budget exploitation film. In Kubrick’s Clockwork Orange, a controversial scene shows the main character, Alex, and his droogs invade a writer’s house and rape his wife. In another rape scene, Alex and co fight off a rival gang. The overt Nazi imagery in combination with depictions of money and hierarchical orders in these scenes links the rise of Nazi Germany with financial and industrial backers in England and America. From the opening scene, sexuality, power, and dominance are closely linked. For example, the rape scene in the writer’s house is paralleled by the Ludovico film’s image of four Nazi soldiers storming a house. You get a sense at the end of the film that the totalitarian government is working with Alex to further their own fascist agenda. We see the same theme of Western powers forgiving war crimes committed by Nazis in exchange for wealth and power in Kubrick’s earlier film, Dr. Strangelove. In Quentin Tarantino’s Pulp Fiction, the Gold Watch story was heavily criticized for depicting the anal rape of a male character over a pommel horse. However, the rape scene is deeply interwoven with the themes of honor, camaraderie, and sacrifice. The anal rape scene of Marsellus is linked to Butch’s father hiding the gold watch in his rectum for two years. The gold watch represents Butch’s desire to live up to his family’s ideals of honor and sacrifice. The gold watch is further referenced through Marsellus’s numerous references to sodomy in his dialogue and various background noises, such as toilet flushes. Rather than leave Marsellus to his fate, Butch uses a katana to kill their captors and save the man who wanted to kill him. The Samurai sword imagery is linked to Japanese ideals of honor and filial piety. I’m not saying that Hotline Miami 2 will feature deep and rich writing similar to these high quality films. I’m asking all of you to put aside your gut reactions for now and take an analytical look at what we know so far of the game. Ask yourself questions about what the writers are trying to accomplish with the game. You’re free to whip up anger and resentment for them using rape imagery to sell their game but it may not accomplish much. This is a niche game that gains mindshare through controversy and media exposure. Here are some questions to build discussion about Hotline Miami 2 and its depiction of rape: What are your thoughts on the in-game tutorial and control instructions being the voice of a film director? What were your thoughts on snuff film production values of the set and the flippant attitude of the director? What are your thoughts on the director’s critique of the player character not being violent enough and the rape victim not being feminine enough? What did you feel about the end scene of the mentally incapacitated man being beaten to death? Were you more shocked at this scene than the staged rape scene? Did you wish it was the set of a film as it progressed?
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Aug 16, 2013 04:51
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To be honest I thought when it first was released, and still think now, that the slasher film is meant to recontextualize the first game. I've never thought that Jacket's relationship with the woman he 'rescues' was anything other than abusive because he's a psychopath who literally drags her home and (most likely) constructs a fantasy in which he "avenges" her like an eighties action hero. Jacket's a vile human being and the Pig Butcher and Fans, at least as far as I'm concerned, make the most sense as a means of rubbing that in because they're doing (or 'doing') terrible things in his image. As for the director, if I'm being honest he seems a bit too on-point in the video. It's like in the first season of Mad Men when they had gratuitous shots of pregnant women smoking and kids getting smacked. It makes the critique too explicit.
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Aug 16, 2013 05:00
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Opening this back up. Keep it civil and on topic.
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Sep 15, 2013 22:09
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So any word on a release date yet?
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Sep 16, 2013 06:01
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Has anybody looked at that Hotline Miami film they want funding for on indiegogo (I think)? Kind of digging the idea, although I'm not sure I'd want Jacket to not be a silent protagonist. If I were doing it, I'd have him be silent, and his actor to do the voices for the masks, but that's just my opinion.
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Sep 16, 2013 10:42
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Serperoth posted:Has anybody looked at that Hotline Miami film they want funding for on indiegogo (I think)? The neat thing about the masks is that it doesn't have to be the actual actor voicing them, though. Could be one hell of a schizophrenic film. Sean Connery voices the Dragon mask
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Sep 16, 2013 10:49
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Sunning posted:Some awesome Hotline Miami on the whole was pretty sinister, and you could take a number of interpretations of the main character's relationship with the prostitute, but I read him as a basically decent man with a kind of Manchurian Candidate thing going on related to his telephone. I thought that the one upbeat trailer that takes place in an elevator was probably the closest to the right reading of him.
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Sep 16, 2013 17:07
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e: I'm not gonna get involved in this discussion after all
swamp waste fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Sep 16, 2013 |
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Sep 16, 2013 22:15
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Lets get this thing back on track! I went and looked up every Hotline Miami 2 article and video I could find. And I learned a few things that I don't think have been mentioned in this thread yet: -Zebra Mask - allows you to climb through windows -Hard Mode - Get an C+(A+?) to unlock hard mode for the level. Hard mode changes game mechanics, like removing lock on. -Should be longer than the first. At very least there will be more levels. -There is a possibility of a map maker -Dennaton is staunchly opposed to making a 3rd HM game. Personally I'm really hoping for the map maker, since they really don't want to do another one after this. Going through user generated maps could add tons of longevity to this game. And as a bonus, here's a list of questions the devs were tired of hearing posted outside the demo trailer at Gamescom: Dennaton Games posted:"When is it out for PS4/Vita?" Requested_Username posted:So any word on a release date yet? Still just 2014 as far as I know. Delaio fucked around with this message at 07:44 on Sep 17, 2013 |
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Sep 17, 2013 07:42
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Delaio posted:Lets get this thing back on track! I went and looked up every Hotline Miami 2 article and video I could find. And I learned a few things that I don't think have been mentioned in this thread yet: Hyped for the map maker too. The HM community has made some good art, and I wouldn't be surprised if we see some great levels come of that. The game already has great level design (generally speaking), and it really helps the game a lot. Hard mode looks like fun too, if a C+ is all we'll need to get it.
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Sep 17, 2013 08:24
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In light of the earlier conversations, this should hopefully prevent them from being an issue. http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/09/05/hotline-miami-devs-reconsidering-sexual-assault-scene The long short of it is, Cactus and Dennis Wedin reflected on the response to the contraversy. They decided to take it out of the demo, and re-asses if it'll be in at all. Also noteworthy is the term "female characterS". Sounds like there's quite a few characters yet to be seen. Lastly, I can't find the article, but Dennis mentioned the movie director had met Jacket during the previous game, and someone who completely had no source claimed that Pig Butcher is Jacket. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. Requested_Username posted:So any word on a release date yet? "I guess you could say snow will be falling when the game is released", so assumedly Q1 2014. Delaio posted:-Zebra Mask - allows you to climb through windows Tony is "Fists of Fury - No Weapons". Which raises a question of the Producer-styled enemies returning. Cuntellectual fucked around with this message at 08:40 on Sep 17, 2013 |
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Sep 17, 2013 08:34
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quote:I respect people’s comments and the fact that people voiced them. That’s how they feel. Our scene made them feel this way, so we have to think about why and if there’s something we can do to make it better. I don’t think it’s right to just say, “You’re wrong. You’re just looking at it wrong.” That’s not the way to go. I nice to see a game developer acknowledge that their intended message may have been interpreted differently by the players and actually tries to fix it rather than get all pretentious and tell them that "they just didn't get it" like so many others in the industry.
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Sep 20, 2013 21:37
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Does anyone have clean art of the red symbol from HM1 that gets turned into a table in the Fans clubhouse in HM2? I'd grab it myself, but I don't have access to a computer that'll do it at the moment. I just realized it would make some awesome Halloween decoration.
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Oct 2, 2013 19:26
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Skyscraper posted:Does anyone have clean art of the red symbol from HM1 that gets turned into a table in the Fans clubhouse in HM2? I'd grab it myself, but I don't have access to a computer that'll do it at the moment. I just realized it would make some awesome Halloween decoration. Speaking of, is anyone doing anything HM-related for Halloween this year?
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Oct 2, 2013 19:30
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I didn't think they had much more details than three horizontal strikes across a circle.
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Oct 3, 2013 05:44
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So, the latest patch fixed a few of the bugs making the game really easy. Namely you can be shot when executing an enemy, you can be shot when you're right up against a guy and dogs will whip around to kill you. Unrelatedly, I tweeted Dennis Wedin asking if the Biker would be in HLM2 or not and he said that 'You'll find out!'. If the Biker and Jacket are both in HLM2 I won't know what to think. 
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Oct 15, 2013 19:09
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HM1 goes free on PSN tomorrow for playstation plus members.
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Oct 22, 2013 01:17
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Sunning posted:That's not an unusual stance for many people to take. Even when there is ample evidence to the contrary, many people don't like it when media appears to exploit a group they represent. They often have an emotionally charge reaction to these types of media portrayals regardless of its stance on the subject matter. This doesn't make them bad people. It only makes them human. It's human to give into irrational feelings. If you don't have a blog, you should. Commentary like this is few and far between, and absolutely what the dialog around gaming should sound like.
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Oct 22, 2013 02:59
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Cheekio posted:If you don't have a blog, you should. Commentary like this is few and far between, and absolutely what the dialog around gaming should sound like. Honestly I'd read it even if it wasn't about video games, that was some good poo poo.
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Oct 22, 2013 04:28
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Parachute posted:Speaking of, is anyone doing anything HM-related for Halloween this year? I'm going as Jacket to a party. I'm just waiting on the jacket to get here.
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Oct 22, 2013 05:11
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TheJoker138 posted:I'm going as Jacket to a party. I'm just waiting on the jacket to get here. Is it the official(?) Jacket jacket that one nerd shirt company was doing? I was thinking about getting that one, but the end result really didn't seem to look right color-wise, I wasn't feeling the type of letter they used, and it was pretty pricy for something that felt off to me. I know they wanted to go off of that one promo poster, but even that didn't feel like it clicked somehow.
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Oct 22, 2013 09:13
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