|
Cingulate posted:Why do people know Caesar? How did he become such an important figure, such a household name? For all I can tell, the main thing he did was end the Republic and conquer a lot of Europe. The guy also reformed the calendar. The Julian calendar was in use all over Europe for the next 1500-1900 years! That and the fact that there's a month still called after him kind of earns him a special mention in history...
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 20:39
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 09:50 |
|
|
Cingulate posted:Why do people know Caesar? How did he become such an important figure, such a household name? For all I can tell, the main thing he did was end the Republic and conquer a lot of Europe. EvilHawk already said it, but ever heard the title Kaiser or Tsar? The general answer is that Europe, from pretty much Charlemagne onwards, has had a huge hardon for everything Roman. WoodrowSkillson posted:He also makes a mean salad and some pizza too. His bread rolls never get no respect I tell you, no respect.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:15
|
|
Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
|
PittTheElder posted:EvilHawk already said it, but ever heard the title Kaiser or Tsar?
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:23
|
|
|
Caesar has fewer syllables.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:25
|
|
|
Cingulate posted:A thing I learned today from this thread was that the name Augustus actually got the same treatment for some time. Yet, that one didn't catch on. Didn't catch on? It was used for almost 1500 years after he died.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:25
|
|
|
Namarrgon posted:Didn't catch on? It was used for almost 1500 years after he died.  But on the other hand: I think Augustus is, to the general public and laymen (including me), a lot less well-known than Caesar. Or maybe that's just me - but that's the impression I got.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:30
|
|
|
Oh yes definitely, probably just has to do with the extra syllable and making it a bit more awkward to scream in anger.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:32
|
|
|
'An august occasion'. 'The august presence of the monarch'. August.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:38
|
|
|
The German version of the name (August) actually only has two syllables, like Caesar. It's also a lot closer to the original name - Caesar to Kaiser (or Tsar) was quite a trip, but Augustus to August basically required dropping the part that screams "I'm latin!".
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:39
|
|
|
Also, we love a dramatic martyrdom. Hard to pass up the Ides of March.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:39
|
|
|
What Latin do people know? Alea iacta est, Et tu, Brute? ... All stuff attributed to Caesar.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:40
|
|
|
Cingulate posted:The German version of the name (August) actually only has two syllables, like Caesar. It's also a lot closer to the original name - Caesar to Kaiser (or Tsar) was quite a trip, but Augustus to August basically required dropping the part that screams "I'm latin!". No it wasn't, it's like the same word.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:44
|
|
|
Drunkboxer posted:It's hard not to pull for Caesar since he's was such a winner, I just like guys like Cato and Cicero as well. Wait the guy who was stabbed to death by his friends on the Senate floor is a winner? I always saw Caesar as the tale of a man who ultimately loses. Maybe that's why I like him more.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:47
|
|
|
cafel posted:Wait the guy who was stabbed to death by his friends on the Senate floor is a winner? I always saw Caesar as the tale of a man who ultimately loses. Maybe that's why I like him more. PittTheElder posted:No it wasn't, it's like the same word.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:52
|
|
|
But isn't that just a quirk of modern English? I know we've argued about this before too, but Caesar was probably pronounced nearly identically to how you and I would say Kaiser.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 21:55
|
|
|
PittTheElder posted:But isn't that just a quirk of modern English? I know we've argued about this before too, but Caesar was probably pronounced nearly identically to how you and I would say Kaiser. I thought that in Vulgar Latin it was pronounced See-zer, but High Latin had it pronounced Kai-sar. High Latin pronouncing all Cs as hard Cs still messes me up - Kikero just doesn't sound right compared to Sissero.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 22:02
|
|
|
dinoputz posted:Going through this thread and doing my own reading, I'm pulling for Caesar all the drat time--gently caress the optimates Julius Caesar killed millions of people for personal and political gain.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 22:06
|
|
|
QCIC posted:Julius Caesar killed millions of people for personal and political gain. Not even in Plutarch's wildest imaginings does this appear true.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 22:08
|
|
|
After the Western Empire faded away, did the upper classes of the East bother to learn Latin? Were there a lot of Latin words and phrases incorporated into medieval Greek?
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 22:16
|
|
|
AdjectiveNoun posted:High Latin pronouncing all Cs as hard Cs still messes me up - Kikero just doesn't sound right compared to Sissero. Yeah, it's super weird to think of the island as Sikilia. Though I always figured Cilicia was in fact pronounced Kilikia, so it's a mixed bag. echopapa posted:After the Western Empire faded away, did the upper classes of the East bother to learn Latin? Were there a lot of Latin words and phrases incorporated into medieval Greek? Latin had been used as the language of administration for a long time, but after the fall of the West, they gradually just switched into using only Greek, since that's what everyone who lived there spoke. 7th or 8th century I think.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 22:20
|
|
|
Don't remember where I read it, but apparently after Greek became the sole official language (sometime in the 700s?) the only ones who bothered with Latin were a few scholars who needed it to interpret older legal documents. Maybe officials and traders who had dealings with the Western church would know it as well, but it was certainly not prestigious anymore. As for loan words, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Greek_words_of_Byzantine_Latin_origin
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 22:25
|
|
|
Kaal posted:Not even in Plutarch's wildest imaginings does this appear true. The figure of one million Gauls killed is attributed to Caesar himself,  ), so it may be total wind. In any case, Caesar launched a preemptive war against the Gauls and used that conquest as a propaganda tool to leverage popular favor. I was responding to a comment which suggested that Caesar was a hero for championing a particular political faction, which leads one to ask how much political change is needed to justify mass murder.e: Plutarch 48.15 seems to be the only classical reference to "one million slain in hand-to-hand fighting" in the Gallic wars. That wouldn't include Gauls killed by famine and the spread of disease, and those taken as slaves. AdjectiveNoun posted:High Latin pronouncing all Cs as hard Cs still messes me up - Kikero just doesn't sound right compared to Sissero. The inverse of this is the way that the vowels in Anglicized Latin words are often pronounced. The phrase "a priori" is usually pronounced "ay praye-ohree", which makes sense given our pronunciation of the word "prior", but it bugs me that the same vowel would be pronounced two different ways, something that never happens in Latin. Same goes for "De Rerum Natura" being rendered "day reeruhm nahtchuruh". QCIC fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Aug 15, 2013 |
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 22:39
|
|
|
With regard to Latin pronunciation, about 10 years ago I went to a gathering of Roman history enthusiasts from all over Europe, and it was funny to determine someone's home country by the way they pronounced classical Latin. To my ears, the English accent sounded most 'off'. Oh and apparently Italian students still get the Ecclesiastical pronunciation taught at school. Also, I don't think Vulgar Latin pronounced 'Caesar' with a soft C, but it most likely did originate there in later years, since they didn't really bother with the diphthong AE, preferring to use E instead. Since E is a front vowel, turning a K into an S is easier to pronounce in sequence.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 22:51
|
|
|
echopapa posted:After the Western Empire faded away, did the upper classes of the East bother to learn Latin? Were there a lot of Latin words and phrases incorporated into medieval Greek? I don't know about a lot, but I do know that the Byzantines/Medieval Romans used Greek versions of some Latin terms - they used Augoustos (Augustus, obviously) for a while before switching to Basileos, they used Kaisar (Caesar), and Wiki gives me a few more Nobelissimos (Nobelissimus), Magistros (Magister), Patrikios (Patrician), etc.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 22:57
|
|
|
Hey y'all, what are good sources for getting a quick overview of the following topics? 1. The Achaean League and Aetolian League 2. The Gothification (it is a word) of the Roman army in the 4th to 5th centuries 3. Demetrius Poliorcetes, his pirate kingship, and the siege of Rhodes 4. The city of Thamugadi These are all things I want to know more about but never came up while I was doing my MA, and now that I am starting a PhD I want to make sure I cover these crucial, crucial topics or I will just keep wondering about them and never study for my exams.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 23:21
|
|
|
Augustus was also known as Julius Caesar so that name is kind of double plus good. I mean he was a member of the Jullii gens, Caesar subfamily.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 23:40
|
|
|
Cingulate posted:Why do people know Caesar? How did he become such an important figure, such a household name? For all I can tell, the main thing he did was end the Republic and conquer a lot of Europe. In addition to what others have said, it also pays to remember that Caesar was really good at propaganda (not quite as good as Augustus, but then Augustus wasn't anywhere near as good a General) and his Gallic Commentaries weren't just a useful contemporary tool to get people on his side, but have remained something for people throughout the ages to read and marvel over. Seoinin posted:Yeah anyone who knows anything could tell you that if you want to be heard, you gotta go with the demes. I mean, unless you're one of those poo poo for brains blues. Greens all the way you son of a bitch 
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 23:45
|
|
|
I went to look up the wikipedia article of the Gallic Wars since it was mentioned here and there was an interesting section on "Truthfulness":wikipedia posted:The work is a hasty compilation made from notes jotted down in the tent or during a journey.[citation needed] If Caesar made mistakes in the respect of truthfulness, it was rather by omission than by commission.[dubious – discuss] He avoids taking about what Romans would prefer to keep quiet, such as the massive amount of plunder.[1] Nonetheless, the work is, apart from a certain bias, a paradigm of proper reporting and stylistic clarity.[2] Just thought that was pretty funny. Would the Romans really have thought taking large amounts of plunder was unseemly in that time, or is that somebody just making some funny vandalism? Was taking large amounts of plunder and captives etc a big thing during the Republic?
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2013 23:59
|
|
|
Plundering the poo poo out of the provinces was definitely a thing most people did if they could. Governorships usually went to Proconsuls, which were consuls that had finished their year of running things. But getting elected to that level - specifically, the office right below that - was crazy expensive. You recouped your losses by taking everything you could find that was owned by a foreigner. I wouldn't be too surprised if bringing that sort of thing up was politically incorrect either.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2013 00:04
|
|
|
Interestingly Julius Caesar is famous for his laws cracking down on the corrupt governors (Lex Julii) He was after all a man of the people. The other ways they would make money is skimming taxes, kick backs from companies and corporations, and selling public land and keeping the proceeds. It was very lucrative!
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2013 00:10
|
|
|
PittTheElder posted:Plundering the poo poo out of the provinces was definitely a thing most people did if they could. Governorships usually went to Proconsuls, which were consuls that had finished their year of running things. But getting elected to that level - specifically, the office right below that - was crazy expensive. You recouped your losses by taking everything you could find that was owned by a foreigner. Plundered nations COULD actually sue their plunderer, I thought? So long as they could get a lawyer willing to represent them, the guy who basically robbed them blind could be taken to court. Sure, it was unlikely they'd be found guilty, but the wronged would at least get their day in court to have a skilled orator denounce their plunderer to the public. Or was that something that only happened to Governors as opposed to Generals?
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2013 00:18
|
|
|
Jerusalem posted:Greens all the way you son of a bitch *burns thread to the ground* What now?! What now?! Don't step to the Reds!
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2013 00:40
|
|
|
euphronius posted:Interestingly Julius Caesar is famous for his laws cracking down on the corrupt governors (Lex Julii) He was after all a man of the people. Don't forget money lending with exorbitant interest. Seriously, after reading about Roman business practices I came to realize exactly where the mafia came from. As Euphronius said Julius Caesar had pulled a ton of strings to make a law limiting the amount of squeezing that was legally allowed. Ironically, this was just after his term as governor (? I forget the appropriate title) of Spain where he provoked wealthy tribes into picking fights with him so he could steal their land filled with lucrative silver mines. So, it's not surprising that Julius would want his propaganda book to neglect to mention the plundering of Gaul. As for why Caesar is so well know, personally, I think it's because most people have no drat clue who Caesar actually was and just lump all of the guys with the name Caesar into one guy and assume he did everything. Kind of like Romulus. I know that when family members, who have educated backgrounds, ask me about Roman stuff they're usually surprised to find out that Augustus was not Julius Caesar.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2013 01:33
|
|
|
Don't forget Markus Likinius Krassus's fire sales either. "Shame your property is on fire, I guess you're ruined. I'll buy it from you for sestertii on the as if you want?" "Fine, whatever." "Done deal then. Army of slaves, put that fire out!" 
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2013 01:54
|
|
|
PittTheElder posted:But isn't that just a quirk of modern English? I know we've argued about this before too, but Caesar was probably pronounced nearly identically to how you and I would say Kaiser. Ithle01 posted:As for why Caesar is so well know, personally, I think it's because most people have no drat clue who Caesar actually was and just lump all of the guys with the name Caesar into one guy and assume he did everything. Kind of like Romulus. I know that when family members, who have educated backgrounds, ask me about Roman stuff they're usually surprised to find out that Augustus was not Julius Caesar. - no longer being a republic - killing Jesus and a few early Christians; then, Constantin; then, church fathers - losing Rome to "barbarians" and Byzantine to the Turks Whereas some key events of Caesar's life (fought Gauls and conquered a lot of Europe; made himself ruler of Rome in a civil war that involved dice and some river that he crossed; ended the republic; died at the hands of some guy named Brutus) are well known. But yeah ... I'm really not at all a historian (I think that's clear from how little I know). I was just wondering why Caesar seems to be this overwhelming, stand-out figure, compared to say Augustus, Constantin, any of the Byzantine emperors, or Trajan. Cingulate fucked around with this message at 03:05 on Aug 16, 2013 |
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2013 03:01
|
|
|
Jerusalem posted:Plundered nations COULD actually sue their plunderer, I thought? So long as they could get a lawyer willing to represent them, the guy who basically robbed them blind could be taken to court. Sure, it was unlikely they'd be found guilty, but the wronged would at least get their day in court to have a skilled orator denounce their plunderer to the public. Or was that something that only happened to Governors as opposed to Generals? IIRC this is how Cicero made his breakout political move - representing the population of Sicily against a corrupt governor.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2013 03:05
|
|
|
"the Romans killed Jesus" is a gross simplification of the context.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2013 03:10
|
|
|
As would be "Rome was lost to barbarians", right? I wasn't trying to describe history, but what I think most people have in mind. Oh god I should just stick to asking questions in threads about stuff I'm not an expert on.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2013 03:13
|
|
|
Seoinin posted:*burns thread to the ground*  
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2013 03:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 09:50 |
|
|
Cingulate posted:The German word "Caesar" does not share pronunciation with either Kaiser, or with how Caesar would have said his own name. Same with Tsar. That's not so much a "quirk of modern English", but rather something very fundamental about a language that a few billion people speak. Even though etymologically, one clearly comes from the other, the German word Kaiser is not at all the same word as latin Caesar; just like you are not your grandfather. The etymology of Kaiser is, to most Germans, opaque, and it is perceived as completely unrelated to Caesar before history class. How is it different? Kaiser is presumably pronounced Ky-Ser, where Ky rhymes with Rye, and Ser rhymes with sir. Which is pretty damned similar to how Caesar would have been pronounced in old latin.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2013 03:20
|
|