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This is a really elegant idea for a mini-game. It's an interesting way to make the process of character creation work a lot harder for all involved -- do you think you'd use this in a longer campaign as a preliminary step to gather information from your players, or do you see any concerns with the perception of straightjacketing? And yes, please do post your Requiem ideas. Also, unrelated but Shockeh, is there any chance you'd be willing to chat about VTES on an SA-able email? I don't have PMs and I'd like another set of eyes to look over a deck before it takes up space in my carry-on.
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Aug 16, 2013 14:28
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I think in a longer campaign I might omit the first list and instead say "your coterie is in Starting Situation X, what do you do for the coterie?" I do think White Wolf games benefit from a really thoroughly locked-in-place starting situation (and total freedom after that). I'll write up what I offered for Requiems next, but while I'm copy/pasting, here's a question for the peanut gallery: I love that the Invictus prefer Retainers to Allies, Influence or Contacts. What are some good Retainers (one or two line summaries) that I can have the One That Handles The Servants pick from both on her own behalf and on behalf of the coterie.
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Aug 16, 2013 16:50
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You know, while I like that Masquerade and Requiem (renamed Mask and Dirge, respectively, in the actual book) are things that exist, I'm not sure that completely replacing Virtue and Vice with them is a good idea. GMC's more freeform Virtues and Vices have been working out great in my game. They've really helped with characterization, while still offering players a large amount of freedom, since they can basically be anything. Mask and Dirge would replace aspects of your character's personality with, basically, your mortal job and your vampire job as your ways of replenishing Willpower. I'm not sure if that's an improvement. With the old Virtue/Vice system, I could see problems with rewarding "good" characters more than "bad" characters, but GMC has example and NPC Virtues like Ambitious, Methodical, and Patient, which would be perfect for ruthless power-hungry vampires.
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Aug 16, 2013 20:26
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Zeithos posted:Also, unrelated but Shockeh, is there any chance you'd be willing to chat about VTES on an SA-able email? I don't have PMs and I'd like another set of eyes to look over a deck before it takes up space in my carry-on. This is wildly unlikely, but is that deck getting carried on to a tournament in PA this weekend? e: Ah, rats. moths fucked around with this message at 02:40 on Aug 17, 2013 |
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Aug 16, 2013 20:42
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INH5 posted:Mask and Dirge would replace aspects of your character's personality with, basically, your mortal job and your vampire job as your ways of replenishing Willpower. I'm not sure if that's an improvement. With the old Virtue/Vice system, I could see problems with rewarding "good" characters more than "bad" characters, but GMC has example and NPC Virtues like Ambitious, Methodical, and Patient, which would be perfect for ruthless power-hungry vampires. In Danse Macabre, it seemed a bit clearer that Masq/Req were more than jobs, they were more like approaches or styles. That's why I wrote the Masqs the way I did - it doesn't actually say (for example) that the Socialite is wealthy/powerful, they may very well be a complete con artist, but that's their style, that's how they appear to approach situations. I tried to make it clear when describing to the players that it's not their human side versus their vampire side - it's likely that there's things in their Requiem that were part of their personality/ethics before they became vampires. Similarly, Masquerades often times get constructed based on the vampiric needs of the character over the decades. Instead it's two aspects of the character - one visible/outward-facing and one inward-facing. JDCorley fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Aug 16, 2013 |
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Aug 16, 2013 21:22
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moths posted:This is wildly unlikely, but is that deck getting carried on to a tournament in PA this weekend? Hah, no; my husband and I are heading back to my old city next month and my jerk friends want to play VTES and I want to make them sorry they asked. I don't think you could pay me to get involved in the tournament scene -- I got legit mad that I couldn't build my deck with the group that had all the pretty Barbies, and I don't think that's in the spirit of the game. I mean, I did suck it up and use the not-pretty ones, but it's still stupid. 
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Aug 16, 2013 21:32
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JDCorley posted:In Danse Macabre, it seemed a bit clearer that Masq/Req were more than jobs, they were more like approaches or styles. That's why I wrote the Masqs the way I did - it doesn't actually say (for example) that the Socialite is wealthy/powerful, they may very well be a complete con artist, but that's their style, that's how they appear to approach situations. So it's basically a more freeform version of VtM's Nature and Demeanor? I guess that might be worth a look. I'll have to see how it's written up in the actual B&S book.
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Aug 16, 2013 21:39
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Exactly. Nature/Demeanor and then Masq/Requiem are better fits for Vampires than they are for other games. GMC Virtue/Vice is better for mortal campaigns because mortals don't have an animal inside them screaming "kill" every time we pass something with a heartbeat. Both editions of Werewolf posited the werewolf as a fully integrated being in a spirit-world ecology; your werewolf identity and pre-werewolf identity (such as it was given that you probably First Changed in your teenage years) could be more or less combined without taking away the premise of the game. And there was NEVER any reason for Mages to worry about that poo poo.
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Aug 16, 2013 21:53
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Nature and Demeanor is exactly how I read it. And now they want you to roll Dodge. Have you thought about Dodge? I'd like to share the 'good news' of Dodge with you -- for without Dodge there is no protection from Soak. I have a book that can tell you all about it...
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Aug 16, 2013 21:59
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I don't buy that nature/demeanor is inherently better for vampire than virtue/vice is. In fact, it seems completely superfluous, since GMC introduced Aspirations alongside Virtue and Vice. Your vampire could just have Aspiration: Achieve another Coil or Aspiration: Become Prince.
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Aug 16, 2013 22:15
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I think aspirations are different. You could have an aspiration you openly seek ("everyone knows that guy is gonna take over the PTA") or secretly covet ("she and I are going to have an amazing affair and her husband will never know"). Of course they're related insofar as your Masq/Req will push you in various aspirational directions, but it's not a one to one replacement for "things I do". No cool Retainers? C'mon people. The Invictus needs you, what are you gonna do, write stuff for Carthians? Ha ha ha!  Anyway, here's the requiems I wrote: For the Eraser (covering up, smoothing over, calming down):
For the Aristocrat (noblesse oblige, loyalty-focused):
JDCorley fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Aug 16, 2013 |
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Aug 16, 2013 22:49
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For the Socialite (everybody's friend, converationalist, confidant):
For the Organizer (group leader, mass movements):
FYI, the players selected: Eraser/In Denial Aristocrat/Tyrant Socialite/Blackmailer Organizer/Dictator It's gonna be a great 1921, everyone. Let's all return to normalcy.
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Aug 16, 2013 22:53
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I notice a distinct absence of "nice person" Requiems. But I guess that's to be expected. On another note, I've recently been thinking about how a house-ruled version of Vigor for GMC could work, similarly to the drafts for Resilience I posted a week back. Like with Resilience, I don't want anything involving damage to simply stack with equipment bonuses without limit. But I don't want it to completely obviate weapons either because, well, I like vampire swordfights. An idea I came up with for a compromise is: spending a Vitae gives you +1 weapon damage for a scene to a maximum of 3 (equivalent to a fire axe, the most powerful melee weapon available in GMC unless the Storyteller allows you to use a chainsaw), in addition to Armor Piercing 1, increased jump distance, and possibly a few other benefits. You can spend additional Vitae to get more weapon damage, again up to a maximum of 3. You would basically be spending Vitae to buy concealment, discretion, and lower Initiative penalties, by allowing you to deal more damage with a smaller weapon, or even with your bare hands. This ability would probably be available at either 2 dots or 3 dots of Vigor. There could also be a merit, devotion, or something that would increase the damage increase per Vitae for players who really want to fight with small weapons or only their fists, similar to Ferrinus's "Fighting Style" merit. Or an easier idea might be to cut the Vitae-stacking entirely, and just have the base ability plus a merit/devotion for additional increases.
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Aug 17, 2013 00:59
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More generally, what are people's thoughts on always-on vs. per-scene attribute/trait bonuses with regards to the physical Disciplines? Obviously, Resilience has to be permanent, otherwise you end up with characters winning a fight only to fall into torpor or even die immediately afterwards. And in any case, activating per-scene stuff should be a reflexive action, so you don't have to spend turns doing nothing but "powering up." But with Vigor and Celerity, the benefits to always-on seem to mainly be reduced book keeping and slightly reduced Vitae expenditure. Which still seems kind of marginal to me. I ask because I was talking to one of my players a few days ago about B&S's Disciplines and he said that he preferred Vigor as a per-scene Strength boost rather than a permanent Strength boost. And I was wondering if I had missed anything about how they work in practice. Also, I have to wonder just how these kind of permanent boost Disciplines will work with ghouls in B&S. Do ghouls with Celerity, Resilience, or Vigor lose their extra Strength/Defense/Stamina when they run out of Vitae, or when they lose their ghoulness altogether? And how the heck is the "damage is purely cosmetic because you're a corpse" fluff description of active Resilience supposed to work with ghouls? INH5 fucked around with this message at 05:28 on Aug 17, 2013 |
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Aug 17, 2013 05:00
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Original Resilience actually does have you fall over at the end of the scene if you've taken more damage than you can either sustain or heal. Presumably, ghouls with B&S resilience wander around looking zombielike in the wake of their injuries until they, too, either spend another Vitae to heal cosmetically or get some rest. The advantage of physical disciplines that always cost vitae is, vampires always get hungrier when they engage in any kind of superheroics whatsoever, so any important fight, contest, exertion, whatever, is ultimately going to be paid for by some sucker down the line. The disadvantage of physical disciplines that always cost vitae is that it's got a chilling effect on the actions of player characters and played-straight NPCs; it's always better to have plenty of Vitae rather than little Vitae and you never know if you're going to need some down the line. Unless you're playing such a well-connected character that blood is no object, you're always going to try to solve problems without physical disciplines before you try to solve them with physical disciplines, which might not be to the taste of someone who wants an action-packed game featuring vampires that are perpetually superhuman rather than conditionally superhuman. Personally, I could go either way - I've played Requiem in the latter mode forever and vampires that have to consciously decide to turn their Vigor on are plenty interesting (the physical disciplines absolutely have to be reflexive actions to use, though, because vampires that have to "power up" are cataclysmically stupid). Nowadays I've got mixed feelings about Vitae being a consumable resource that's used to fuel your powers and heal your damage and wake you up from night to night. It does a fantastic job of making being a vampire revolve completely about acquiring blood, but it also makes vampire revolve around retaining blood - when you've got a non-regenerating mana pool, you're going to approach it in a conservative and efficiency-minded mode. It might be that Vampire could benefit from rules that differentiate the two, such that you had no choice but to feed but once you had fed the Vitae you'd picked up had no further defensive/survival-oriented use and weas therefore burning a hole in your pocket and begging to be spent on sickass Discipline powers. A while ago on the White Wolf forums Rose Bailey mentioned that she'd been kicking around the idea of hunger being a form of damage on your health track - you'd wake up with [H] in one or more of your boxes and could only heal it by feeding (not spending Vitae, just getting the stuff). Or if you were really crazy you could give vampires an increasing Thirst score rather than a decreasing Vitae score, and make it so simply having a particular Discipline rather than electing to activate it that permanently increased your default/minimum Thirst rating.
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Aug 17, 2013 06:16
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That's the kind of madness I can get behind. I like the idea of the passive stuff for the physical Disciplines - gives ghouls something to have when they don't have a full point of Vitae in them. I almost want it for the non-physical Disciplines too (or at least the quasi-physical ones like Protean.) I'm LOLling at my experienced-Vampire-players reactions to my all-Invictus game. One guy who has been min-maxing his Coils since 2004 is like "this is insane" in response to everything I tell him about how great life is with the Invictus and getting really revved up for the game. "We don't have to perfect ourselves, that's why there's money."
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Aug 17, 2013 07:45
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Ferrinus posted:Original Resilience actually does have you fall over at the end of the scene if you've taken more damage than you can either sustain or heal. I know. That's why I said that Resilience's extra Health boxes have to be permanent, as otherwise it makes the power far less useful and far less impressive. It doesn't feel like you're a supernaturally tough undead creature of the night, it feels like you're some guy jacked up on PCP. But I re-read the original nWoD book's Health rules today and found that it was even worse than I had thought. You don't just lose the extra health boxes; every wound in those boxes upgrades your remaining damage. So if you have seven base health, 5 Resilience, 4 aggravated damage, and 6 lethal, then you will suffer Final Death if you don't heal before the scene ends. So using your supernatural power for its intended purpose of taking more damage than people without the power can is likely to incapacitate or even kill you. Seriously, what the hell were they thinking? Ferrinus posted:Presumably, ghouls with B&S resilience wander around looking zombielike in the wake of their injuries until they, too, either spend another Vitae to heal cosmetically or get some rest. If Resilience allows ghouls to absorb damage zombie style, that raises other questions given that unlike zombies or vampires, ghouls still have relatively normal biological processes. What happens if a ghoul gets shot a bunch, negates the damage with Resilience, then drinks something? Does the drink leak out of the bullet holes like the first ghost in Scrooged? I think that for my Resilience as Wolverine-Zombie armor house rules, I might have the 1 bashing minimum be a 1 lethal minimum (if the attack would have done lethal damage normally, of course) for ghouls. If that means that ghouls have to wear armor to get full benefits from their Discipline, then I don't really have a problem with that. Armor would already be more useful for ghouls than it is for vampires since they actually benefit from ballistic armor. Ferrinus posted:
Thanks for the input. I'll have to think about what kind of game I want to run before I decide how this should work. Fortunately, I have plenty of time to do that. JDCorley posted:That's the kind of madness I can get behind. In B&S, most 1-dot Discipline abilities have no Vitae cost, meaning ghouls could presumably use them without spending Vitae. Protean's Unmarked Grave, for instance, has no Vitae cost when done in soil. So a ghoul with Protean could run into a park and hide in the dirt even if he's out of Vitae. Also, ghouls with Animalism can do the doctor Doolittle thing, ghouls with Dominate can do some basic hypnosis, and ghouls with Obfuscate can slip into a crowd unnoticed, whenever they want without any Vitae cost. Though again, I have to wonder precisely when these powers will fade out if the ghoul isn't given Vitae.
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Aug 17, 2013 17:19
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about physical Discipline Vitae costs.
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I believe ghouls burn through a Vitae every 30 days just by living. But I can't remember where I read that.
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Aug 17, 2013 17:33
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JDCorley posted:I believe ghouls burn through a Vitae every 30 days just by living. But I can't remember where I read that.
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Aug 17, 2013 18:30
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INH5 posted:Thanks for the input. I'll have to think about what kind of game I want to run before I decide how this should work. Fortunately, I have plenty of time to do that. I think the solution most likely to be satisfying to players is to make the physical disciplines give you passive, free benefits straightaway, so you always feel like you're an inhuman supernatural predator, but for the physical disciplines to strongly encourage spending Vitae so that you end up much hungrier whenever you're exerting more than casual power. In that sense, I think the B&S passive mode/active mode split is a good one, and I'm largely behind a five-dot physical discipline being passive at dots one and two (maybe just one) but giving you exciting things to do with your Vitae past that.
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Aug 17, 2013 22:22
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Revolutionary France era changeling. Oh man that is very exciting. Now Mage: The ??? chronicles has been confirmed do we know what name is likely Anake? Acamoth? Ticktock Men?
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Aug 17, 2013 22:36
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Ferrinus posted:I think the solution most likely to be satisfying to players is to make the physical disciplines give you passive, free benefits straightaway, so you always feel like you're an inhuman supernatural predator, but for the physical disciplines to strongly encourage spending Vitae so that you end up much hungrier whenever you're exerting more than casual power. In that sense, I think the B&S passive mode/active mode split is a good one, and I'm largely behind a five-dot physical discipline being passive at dots one and two (maybe just one) but giving you exciting things to do with your Vitae past that. Yeah, that's probably what I'll end up doing. In particular, the attribute bonuses being passive makes book-keeping quite a bit easier, so I think that's good as a general practice. So Vigor gives you more Strength all the time, but you can spend Vitae for things like increased weapon damage, ignoring armor and object durability, and jumping really high/far. I'm also beginning to think that it might be okay to have active benefits in the first dot as well, at least some of the time. After all, in B&S 1 dot Auspex has you spending Vitae to use it multiple times in a scene, and you have to spend Vitae to use 1 dot Protean in anything other than dirt. First dot active powers would help with, like you said, making vampires get hungrier when they exert more power and making Disciplines feel "monstrous right out the gate," like the developers have repeatedly said on the White Wolf forums. For instance, in my current draft of Resilience the first dot gives you, in addition to the Stamina boost and a few other passive benefits, 1 point of always-on armor (equivalent to thick/reinforced clothing) that you can spend Vitae to boost to 2 (equivalent to a flak jacket) for a scene. I wanted the first dot to give you something that couldn't be replicated by cheap and inconspicuous equipment, but I also wasn't sure if I wanted Gangrel and Vetrue to always walk around with that level of damage resistance. So that seemed like a decent compromise to me. Little_wh0re posted:Revolutionary France era changeling. Oh man that is very exciting. I assume this is new from Gencon. Do you have any links, or is this just word of mouth?
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Aug 17, 2013 23:03
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Real talk, though, charging vampires zero Vitae to earthmeld but charging them one Vitae each scene they want to grow non-magical claws or stick to walls or whatever is terrible.
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Aug 17, 2013 23:22
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Ferrinus posted:Real talk, though, charging vampires zero Vitae to earthmeld but charging them one Vitae each scene they want to grow non-magical claws or stick to walls or whatever is terrible. Yeah, that is pretty lame. Especially given that several of Protean 2's abilities can be replicated with relatively cheap equipment. Given that Protean 2 gives you three adaptations, I'm thinking that it might be better to do it kind like the first two dots of Auspex, so that you can grow one adaptation, which is chosen when you pick out or change your set, for free but you need to pay Vitae to manifest the other two for a scene. INH5 fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Aug 17, 2013 |
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Aug 17, 2013 23:35
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Little_wh0re posted:Revolutionary France era changeling. Oh man that is very exciting. Pretty sure it's the Fallen World chronicle, based on the name of the fiction anthology. Here's the release schedule: http://theonyxpath.com/from-gen-con-onyx-path-release-schedule-aug-2013-aug-2014/
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Aug 18, 2013 00:10
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Holy poo poo. That schedule is sure...unlikely. If they stick to it, I'm going to have soooo little money.
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Aug 18, 2013 00:31
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I'm just psyched to see Aeon announced!
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Aug 18, 2013 00:39
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It looks like their new business model is working for them. I can't believe they're still humping Mummy that hard. Looking forward to eras.
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Aug 18, 2013 00:39
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I just plain love Onyx Path. There's something about the model of "You don't want to put out books? Fine, here's some money, we'll do it ourselves, then." that just appeals. Also that Anarchs Unbound is looking fantastic. Can't wait for it. That schedule, though- that wouldn't have been a light schedule even back in WW's glory days.
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Aug 18, 2013 01:00
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Oh man, so much Mummy stuff coming! Hell yes!
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Aug 18, 2013 01:41
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I really wish there were more oWoD stuff scheduled that didn't come off as essentially an updated version of an existing book. (Anarchs, again! The Umbra, again! More loving Vampire rituals!) I'd love to see more new books along the lines of The Gilded Cage - is there really no demand for that kind of material, or are the writers just not pitching those kinds of books?
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Aug 18, 2013 01:54
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gtrmp posted:I really wish there were more oWoD stuff scheduled that didn't come off as essentially an updated version of an existing book. (Anarchs, again! The Umbra, again! More loving Vampire rituals!) I'd love to see more new books along the lines of The Gilded Cage - is there really no demand for that kind of material, or are the writers just not pitching those kinds of books? shut up don't make me analyze my knee-jerk response of YES I WILL BUY DARK AGES ALL OVER AGAIN YES YES DELUXE IT PUT A FOIL ON IT YES ALL OF IT COME TO MUMMY But yeah I'd be all-over-er some new poo poo.
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Aug 18, 2013 02:39
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It turns out oChangeling has an entire multinational law firm run by Changelings. In a game that treats law as the ultimate dream killer. I have no words.
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Aug 18, 2013 19:29
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A poster on the White Wolf forums was able to get a peak at the Blood and Smoke book during Gencon. In particular, he had some new information on the Coils.quote:Coils of the Dragon. There are 3 Coils presented in the book with a pretty significant rework. They are rated 1-5 dots, and are each essentially a new discipline unto themselves. They are referred to as "Mysteries," and a Dragon will choose a single Mystery as his core philosophy. You can raise your chosen Mystery all the way up to 5, but the other two may only rise as high as your Status: Ordo Dracul, and you must negotiate with an adherent of that Mystery to teach you. The Coils now relate very closely to old Dracula himself, and speak to many of the images and themes present in the literature and folklore that surrounds him. Also, some stuff about merits. quote:There is a gigantic section of Merits in this book. Some are specifically for Kindred. I can't say I like the stuff involving frenzy. The Blood Potency bonus already seemed excessive, but with the right coils/merits it can apparently go up to BP+5, plus a bunch of other bonuses. Was +1 die and immunity to wound penalties really not enough? This seems like just adding more power for the sake of more power. INH5 fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Aug 18, 2013 |
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Aug 18, 2013 19:40
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I think making frenzy more effective isn't a bad idea, it makes it more tempting to just throw a starving monster into a room with your enemies and bar the door. Quick (non-Blood & Smoke) Blood Potency question. It says in the Requiem rulebook that BP increases by 1 every 50 years. But you can also buy it with XP. I take this to mean that your blood can become more powerful through the normal process of learning/exertion that other physical traits can improve. If someone wanted to start with (say) BP 3 and just say "Yeah, I've only been a vampire for like 50 years but a lot of those years were really intense." would that make fictional sense for what I'm seeing in this rule? I incline towards "yes" but wanted to hear what others thought.
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Aug 18, 2013 19:53
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Frenzy was almost useless once you got XP, actively worse for non-physical characters. Glad to see it's becoming scarier.
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Aug 18, 2013 20:05
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On the other hand, "Fighting Style: Riding the Wave" sounds like a bad joke.
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Aug 18, 2013 20:07
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I think that's a description, not the name.
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Aug 18, 2013 20:15
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It actually is the name, as far as I know. Its writer teased it on the WW forums ages ago. "+1 to physical actions" is too minor a benefit for frenzy, but we appear to be getting the insane flip side where you get +10 all actions and aggravated damage and immunity to torpor... if you buy the correct combination of merits and powers. This thing where investment into an area of the game yields unchallenged mastery of that area of the game is not freaking cool!!
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Aug 18, 2013 20:21
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Yeah, the real issue with the frenzy bonuses in B&S is that frenzy only becomes scary when you either boost your power stat or invest your XP into making your frenzy better. For BP 1 neonates without any of those frenzy powers/merits, it's just as lame as it was before. I concede that +1 die is kind of pitiful. But if you want to make frenzy more powerful, wouldn't it make sense to boost it for everyone, not just elders and frenzy masters? Make it something like +2 or +3 to all physical actions, a bonus to Defense (for GMC, it could just be higher of Dex/Wits, like an animal), increased speed, 8-again on all resistance rolls, and a couple temporary extra health boxes (taking a bunch of damage then falling over at the end of the scene would actually be appropriate here). Make it so that any frenzying vampire is a thing to be feared. As is, frenzy is just as useless for non-physical neonates as it was before, but it's potentially a win-button for elders and characters who have invested XP into frenzy powers and merits. INH5 fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Aug 18, 2013 |
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Aug 18, 2013 21:20
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