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I just want to caveat my kvetching about technomancers as I suspect it's come across a lot more damning than I really intended it. Fresh out of chargen, I think technomancer's are almost definitely worse than a physad or mundane decker as hackers and runners. Non-techno hackers need the entire cracking group, Computer, and a few points in hardware (for jacking out while link-locked) and software (Disarm Databomb) to fulfill their roles. Technomancer's need all that and need a high Software skill for complex forms and compiling and registering, so they have to either make significant sacrifices in core hacking skills or give up non-Matrix versatility (e.g. First aid, sneaking, etc). But in contrast to 4E, they are totally viable as hackers right out of chargen. A Shadowrun newbie whose fancy is tickled by technomancers can just make a drat technomancer (high Resonance pick, high mental attributes, lots of points in hacking skills) and fulfill the role of hacker without any GM coddling. I also think they will shine in mid to high-level play not because of any 4E-inspired 'infinite scaling' nonsense but because they are dramatically better at dealing with Overwatch Score than non-techno hackers. Your opponents need to roll ~120 dice in defensive rolls against you for Convergence, so it's not very relevant for 90% of low-end runs. Now, a typical rating 6 host (local college, local police, international policlub (ie humanis policlub)) throws ~15 dice in defense, so you get to make about 8 Attack and Sleaze actions before you get slapped with three marks, IC start getting launched, and you have to jack out from the host (ie not be link-locked, then spend two simple's switching from hot-sim to AR, then another complex action to jack out). A rating 12 host throws an eye-watering 27 dice on defense, giving you about 4 Attack or Sleaze actions before the poo poo hits the fan. Yeah. Sprites have their own independent Overwatch Scores while Agent's actions add to the user's Overwatch Scores (although a decker could duplicate that by buying extra decks but I don't consider that reasonable). So you could have a hefty Fault sprite engage the launched IC while you do your thing, or a Crack sprite use Suppression to buy some time (e.g. to jack out). Techno's can use Static Veil to stay jacked in for longer than ~80 minutes. Techno's can use Cleaner. Techno's can use Resonance Spike, Puppeteer, Static Bomb, and Transcendent Grid to accomplish things without building up Overwatch Score.
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Aug 19, 2013 21:35
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Finally got the 5th Edition PDF a few days ago. I've been looking it over and there are a few improvements but overall I still like 4th Ed better. I haven't really gotten deep enough into the Matrix rules yet though, and that seems to be what everyone likes better. One thing I'm not sure about is armor. What does everyone else think of Armor being only one stat now? On the one hand, it makes bookkeeping a hell of a lot easier. On the other, having Impact almost always be the lower score made melee characters a little more deadly and added to  MY IMMERSION
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Aug 19, 2013 21:40
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Martello posted:One thing I'm not sure about is armor. What does everyone else think of Armor being only one stat now?
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Aug 19, 2013 22:02
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Nyaa posted:I think it's dumb because there's no reason to get weaker armor beside rp reason. Other armor is like the new "trap option" now. As long as weaker armor is cheaper than stronger armor, there'll always be at least one compelling reason to buy it: you're broke as poo poo.
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Aug 19, 2013 22:06
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Nyaa posted:I think it's dumb because there's no reason to get weaker armor beside rp reason. Other armor is like the new "trap option" now. So is a Face going to waltz into the front doors of a corporate outlet wearing a combat jacket and helmet?
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Aug 19, 2013 22:08
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Martello posted:One thing I'm not sure about is armor. What does everyone else think of Armor being only one stat now? On the one hand, it makes bookkeeping a hell of a lot easier. On the other, having Impact almost always be the lower score made melee characters a little more deadly and added to Ballistic/impact was stupid pointless spergy book keeping and I am happy it's gone. In most cases impact it was just ballistic minus two. Helmet's were +2 impact, so in many cases the scores were utterly identical!
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Aug 19, 2013 22:09
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Cabbit posted:As long as weaker armor is cheaper than stronger armor, there'll always be at least one compelling reason to buy it: you're broke as poo poo. Edit: Well, beside setting where obtaining armor from a vendor is not possible or something. quote:So is a Face going to waltz into the front doors of a corporate outlet wearing a combat jacket and helmet? Also I did mention RP reason. Nyaa fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Aug 19, 2013 |
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Aug 19, 2013 22:15
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Cabbit posted:As long as weaker armor is cheaper than stronger armor, there'll always be at least one compelling reason to buy it: you're broke as poo poo. Also who doesn't take a lined coat for
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Aug 19, 2013 22:16
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Actioneer Business Clothes: 8 armor, 1500Y Armored Clothing: 6 armor, 475Y Armor Vest: 9 armor, 500Y In 99% of cases everyone will wear an Armored Jacket: 12 armor, 1000Y. However when it's not socially acceptable look at the choices above and tell me why you'd choose anything other than the Vest if discretion is necessary? You can always buy non-armored suits, so the Actioneer clothing is pretty pointless, and armored clothing is somehow worse than a vest, which by the rules is: "Armor vest: This modern flexible-wrap vest is designed to be worn under regular clothing without displaying any bulk. A popular and cost-effective option." Removing B/I ratings really just made three armor choices: Armored Jacket for almost everyone, Armored Vest for discretion, Full Body Armor for merc campaigns. Even the Lined Coat isn't a real option anymore unless you need to conceal your Gibson or whatever. It should also be noted that an Armored Jacket is availability 2, so you can almost literally buy it from a street corner without any trouble.
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Aug 19, 2013 22:19
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I sits for three minutes trying to think of something to say about this, but I got nothing.  Shadowrun - Brony Edition.
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Aug 19, 2013 23:52
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Making armor 1 stat isn't what's leading to armor jacket overload, it's removing the Body requirement.Poil posted:Random question, are the 5th edition rules fleshed out enough with just the core book to allow you to make a Mirror's Edge type of character? Preferably an adept. Yep! Light Body and Wall Running and you're set. That said I'd actually generally recommend Light Body be put on a qi focus rather then as a chosen power, since you don't always need it active.
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Aug 20, 2013 00:01
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Bigass Moth posted:Actioneer Business Clothes: 8 armor, 1500Y Presumably you'd have to buy a nice suit separately, and that might make the Actioneer cheaper overall?
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Aug 20, 2013 00:10
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ProfessorCirno posted:Making armor 1 stat isn't what's leading to armor jacket overload, it's removing the Body requirement. Still though, Shadowrun's so-soft-it-could-be-made-of-marshmallows level of abstraction really seems to be at odds with their desire to play the gear porn game. In a game which actually used things like hit locations then buying an armored business suit might be worthwhile, but since putting armor anywhere on your body magically protects your everything and armored vests are A). better armor, B). cheaper, and C). basically totally concealable under regular clothing (including non-armored business suits) it's basically yet another iteration of the "spot which choices are actually kind of pointless" minigame.
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Aug 20, 2013 00:11
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Page 449, respirators. Rating 1 is 50 nuyen; rating 6 is 300 nuyen. Going up in rating doesn't affect availability (as far as I can tell) and 300 ny is pretty cheap. Is there a reason a character would ever opt to get a Rating 1-5 respirator if they wanted a respirator?
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Aug 20, 2013 02:30
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Brannock posted:Page 449, respirators. Rating 1 is 50 nuyen; rating 6 is 300 nuyen. Going up in rating doesn't affect availability (as far as I can tell) and 300 ny is pretty cheap. Is there a reason a character would ever opt to get a Rating 1-5 respirator if they wanted a respirator? Aside from cost, no. Gas masks are better though, since they block all inhalation vector toxins while respirators only add their rating to the defense test. Internal Air Tank is king - level 1 lets you not breathe for an hour, and most gasses are dissipated in a matter of seconds.
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Aug 20, 2013 03:18
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Brannock posted:Page 449, respirators. Rating 1 is 50 nuyen; rating 6 is 300 nuyen. Going up in rating doesn't affect availability (as far as I can tell) and 300 ny is pretty cheap. Is there a reason a character would ever opt to get a Rating 1-5 respirator if they wanted a respirator? No, but that doesn't mean an NPC ganger might not have a lovely one, or a place a PC is snatching one from for a sudden gas attack that he didn't bother to prepare for might not only have a lovely one lying around. Believe it or not, sub-optimal things exist all over the place. Similarly, no PC decker is going to own a rating 1 deck (excluding ganger/street campaigns), but that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of them bouncing around for low-end NPCs to use. Hell, my favorite ganger weapon is the makeshift pipe shotgun that shows up in the gun supplements. In games that I run, people are pretty much guaranteed to run into two guys when they encounter gangers. One is the crazy lieutenant with a monowhip who definitely does not have an adequate skill to wield it safely and the other dude carries around a bucket of nails,a fistful of black powder cubes and a pre-loaded pipe gun.
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Aug 20, 2013 03:56
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I feel like I might have skipped over this somewhere, but: how do Technomancers connect to stuff like throwback mag locks or the like? Could they, say, hack into a commlink that's physically connected to it and use that as a bridge?
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Aug 20, 2013 05:10
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I made a character that has massive growth potential via nuyen and karma (initiate for quickening as fast as possible!) that should also be an absolute blast to play. Sink everything you have into initiating, then quickening, and as many skills at 3-4 karma wise. Without further ado I present The Mirror Shade's Edge! code:dirtycajun fucked around with this message at 10:55 on Aug 20, 2013 |
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Aug 20, 2013 06:44
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Using a QI focus is a very good idea. If you use a mage-type for it you can just grab the levitation spell and call it a day. 
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Aug 20, 2013 16:37
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Had a player try to convince me that "levitation makes it so I have zero weight" at Shadowrun Missions last night, to which I pointed out that, OK, they were 30 stories up on top of a building and in that case, a wind picks up and they slam into the side of another skyscraper a few blocks downtown and die instantly. They decided they wanted to not be dead, so Levitation does what the spell says and nothing more. When will Spells as Physics finally be broken in the popular imagination?
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Aug 20, 2013 17:36
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I wanted to use more qi foci but that build is tight on resources and karma. I am just happy knowing that it will eventually have a 10 in every stat and ranks in all applicable skills.
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Aug 20, 2013 18:21
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OB_Juan posted:Why hack some mook's gun? Hack a news chopper, park it on the mooks. A Good Post (tm) Seriously, I like that guns aren't insta-hackable. See above for a list of much more fun alternatives, and remember that hacking guns should be done in advance and come as a surprise for it to work the best - see that 4e fiction where a technomancer makes a meet with an italian militia, and ejects their clips as proof of ability. E: As for the respirators, I love low rating poo poo, makes for more teeth-jarring close calls. Street Level character creation prohibits buying devices above R4, and you may have to fashion or steal one in a pinch that simply isn't the bleeding edge 
Tias fucked around with this message at 08:50 on Aug 21, 2013 |
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Aug 21, 2013 08:42
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Tias posted:A Good Post (tm) Actually, aren't they sort of insta-hackable? You only need one mark on an icon for spoof, which isn't terribly difficult-- take a complex action to brute force or hack-on-the-fly somebody with your full dice pool, and then throw a free action spoof to eject their clips. Hell, if all the devices in a facility are slaved to a spider's deck, well, all you have to do is plug a cord into something and hack a mark onto it to get a mark on the spider. Then it's spoofs for everyone!
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Aug 21, 2013 09:00
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That very much depends on the security set-up. As has been argued, if you're going up against Secure Operators who have everything turned off or skinlinked (though a crawler drone up the pant leg can hook you up in the latter case!), you're hosed - but I side with the "people rarely go black" crowd. There is a variety of arguments here, I tend to see it like this: People with their weapons, armor and cyber off piss off their superiors who may have RoE, ammo costs or the expensive corp facility around them in mind. Corporate groupthink dictates that mother corp has picked the best probably IC package, or the spider is an elitary goon who refuses to work with soldiers who don't let him handle their matrix security. At the very least their biomonitors should be meshed to check on them, providing a venue of attack. ..And that's before we get into non-professionels, who just don't see a reasion to stay off the grid. JimRob can't not have his AR hooked up to arfcom, otherwise how would his peers know how many home invaders he shot recently?
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Aug 21, 2013 09:18
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dirtycajun posted:I made a character that has massive growth potential via nuyen and karma (initiate for quickening as fast as possible!) that should also be an absolute blast to play. Sink everything you have into initiating, then quickening, and as many skills at 3-4 karma wise. How do you intend to sustain all those spells? Increase attribute requires a force equal to the attribute you are modifying, so that makes the sustaining foci higher force than you'd probably like. Otherwise, sustaining multiple spells quickly add higher and higher penalties to all actions. If you plan on keeping them all up with Quickening, I would hate to see what happens when you encounter your first ward, or any Dual Natured person/critter/spirit who felt like giving you a bad day. By the way this explains a lot: https://twitter.com/RussellZee/status/368889317885636608/photo/1 Bigass Moth fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Aug 21, 2013 |
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Aug 21, 2013 13:19
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The plan is to quicken. You eventually grab assensing adept foci and then one or two ranks in assensing so wards don't catch you. Dual natured critters suck for everyone. Hopefully you can out run them.
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Aug 21, 2013 15:14
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Laphroaig posted:Had a player try to convince me that "levitation makes it so I have zero weight" dirtycajun posted:The plan is to quicken. You eventually grab assensing adept foci and then one or two ranks in assensing so wards don't catch you. Dual natured critters suck for everyone. Hopefully you can out run them. I've been thinking of just summoning a watcher to follow me and tell me when there's a ward that I am going to walk/run into or just have it constantly fly 10 ft in front of me so if it got blocked, then I would know.
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Aug 21, 2013 15:45
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Drakes are dual natured, does this mean they are actually useful for something?  Hmmm, with the slightly better melee system they might not be such a trap-like choice anymore. Although considering the build point cost in 4th you'd probably end up with priority A metatype (drake 0). Poil fucked around with this message at 15:52 on Aug 21, 2013 |
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Aug 21, 2013 15:49
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Poil posted:Drakes are dual natured, does this mean they are actually useful for something? Oh wait, wrong edition. 
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Aug 21, 2013 16:05
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dirtycajun posted:The plan is to quicken. You eventually grab assensing adept foci and then one or two ranks in assensing so wards don't catch you. Dual natured critters suck for everyone. Hopefully you can out run them. You can't avoid wards forever, especially if you're playing Missions with the rest of the Philly crew. Just this monday we got to choose between "go through three force ten wards" and "get killed by dozens of mooks hurling grenades"
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Aug 21, 2013 16:09
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Man you should see the build for one shoting those force 10 wards and spirits. It is hilarious.
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Aug 21, 2013 16:41
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There was a destroy ward spell in 4e...
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Aug 21, 2013 16:54
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No, there was 1 Force 7 Ward at the extraction, and at the meeting, the ward creator let you pass his wards; the dichotomy you present wasn't there. Also, dozens? 3 mooks with grenades is more than sufficient to kill everyone. Raising attributes via spells is not too terrible, as Force 10 quickened spells are all of 1 edged' drain test and a single point of karma to keep up. There is the interesting question of if you can accidentally walk through a mana barrier; while dual natured, you cannot, so while assensing or projecting you'd hit the barrier and be unable to pass through it; you can be forced through via, say, being in a Van that drives through a barrier, or be astrally assensing as you take an elevator into a warded basement. In those cases, you need to read the Astral Intersections section of the Mana Barrier rule. Its Force x 2 [Force] vs. Force x 2 [Force], of the any astral object or construct (spells, foci, etc) vs the Barrier, and its Magic + Charisma [Astral] vs. Force x 2 [Force] for living creatures that are dual natured passing through. On a tie, both are disjoined.
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Aug 21, 2013 18:21
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Cabbit posted:Actually, aren't they sort of insta-hackable? You only need one mark on an icon for spoof, which isn't terribly difficult-- take a complex action to brute force or hack-on-the-fly somebody with your full dice pool, and then throw a free action spoof to eject their clips. Spoof is a complex action, unless I am missing something?
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Aug 22, 2013 02:51
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Laphroaig posted:Spoof is a complex action, unless I am missing something? Eject clip is a free.
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Aug 22, 2013 03:26
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No, he's right-- I was conflating Spoof with Control Device, for some reason, and thought you could Spoof as quickly as the action you were replicating. Considering Spoof only needs one mark on the owner for any command, and doesn't look like a command from a third party, that would be ludicrously effective.
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Aug 22, 2013 03:46
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Ok, but Control Device takes whatever action it normally would, and eject clip is a free if they have a smartgun (and they'd need to have a smartgun for you to hack the firearm). So the example still sits! More or less!
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Aug 22, 2013 04:32
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ProfessorCirno posted:Ok, but Control Device takes whatever action it normally would, and eject clip is a free if they have a smartgun (and they'd need to have a smartgun for you to hack the firearm). So the example still sits! More or less! More or less, yeah. Though for my money, the neatest trick is a Technomancer threading Puppeteer to make somebody perform an Invite Mark action. Two net hits gets you three marks, zero overwatch score, and probably a massive nosebleed because the fading value is level+4. Though I guess you could also make somebody jack out and eat dumpshock at the drop of a hat, or for one hit more make them reformat. Cabbit fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Aug 22, 2013 |
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Aug 22, 2013 04:42
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Yeah, Fading is extremely harsh on technomancers - bizarrely, far harsher then it is on Mages, who have far more powerful spells. Especially when you remember that fading damage cannot be healed outside of pure bed rest.
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Aug 22, 2013 05:09
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It's pretty stiff, yeah, but I'm not sure it's unreasonable-- magicians rely on magic and spirits far more than technomancers rely on threading and sprites. A technomancer without resonance skills is still a relatively competent hacker; a magician without magic is, well, redundant. E: On an unrelated topic, somebody should start up another recruitment. I'm sure there's enough interest out there, and I'm not just saying that because I only caught on to the existing ones too late! Cabbit fucked around with this message at 05:23 on Aug 22, 2013 |
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Aug 22, 2013 05:20
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