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Finished the second day of Hate Plus. I can't remember the last time a game tore up my heart like this. Cripes.
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Aug 20, 2013 17:03
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| # ? Jun 7, 2024 16:08 |
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I'm enjoying Grisaia so far (haven't gotten onto any of the routes yet), but cripes, Yuuji's constant 'women are like THIS' nearly put me off. At least he's seemed to knock it off a bit.
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Aug 20, 2013 22:32
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Endorph posted:I'm enjoying Grisaia so far (haven't gotten onto any of the routes yet), but cripes, Yuuji's constant 'women are like THIS' nearly put me off. At least he's seemed to knock it off a bit. I think it's more "women tend to be like this". The three biggest influences on his life, as far as we know, have been his mom, his sister, and his female master, all women. He's speaking as a professional with extensive first hand experience rather than a sexist shithead.
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Aug 20, 2013 22:36
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Professional with extensive first hand experience? Really? Women are people, holy poo poo, you don't need six months of training and a legion of generalizations to figure them out. I can see how a guy who's life has been influenced almost entirely by women with rather extreme personalities would come to think like that, but it's still kind of annoying. I'm hoping it's meant to be a 'character' thing and not a 'this is the voice of the author' thing, but even if it's a character thing it's still kind of bugging me.
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Aug 20, 2013 23:58
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Yeah, that poo poo was pretty annoying, although I do think it subsides somewhat once you get off the common route.
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Aug 21, 2013 00:00
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Yuuji's not supposed to be an ideal person. He's lived a weird life with some really weird people. I don't believe anyone reads Grisaia and thinks "Yeah, Yuuji is a well-adjusted person whose world view is not warped at all". Still, he tries, and he seems to grow past at least some of his problems on each route.
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Aug 21, 2013 00:19
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Suleman posted:Yuuji's not supposed to be an ideal person. He's lived a weird life with some really weird people. I don't believe anyone reads Grisaia and thinks "Yeah, Yuuji is a well-adjusted person whose world view is not warped at all". In Yuuji's case, since it's confined to his narration (at least so far), there's never really a dialogue about it. And I'll be pleasantly surprised if I'm wrong about this, but I doubt his weird view of women is something the game will dedicate time to exploring and incorporating into his development.
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Aug 21, 2013 00:25
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That sounds to me like you have such an aversion to sexism that anything moderately sexist, that doesn't get explicitly pointed out as such in the material, you immediately attribute as the author's opinion with the character as a mouthpiece. I think that's pretty narrowminded, but ultimately it's entertainment so you're free to avoid perusing media where the characters have views or opinions that differ from your own. Alternatively you shouldn't be looking too deep into Japanese male-audience targeted media, or like, at all.
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Aug 21, 2013 00:37
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Nephilm posted:Alternatively you shouldn't be looking too deep into Japanese male-audience targeted media, or like, at all. Also, I said I was enjoying it like, three posts ago. It's a good game. I like the characters and the dialogue's witty at times. Yuuji just rubbed me the wrong way. Even if the game is going for the 'Yuuji's a sexist' angle, which I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt on overall, it still kind of annoys me. Aspects of something can annoy you without you hating the thing in general. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure an aversion to sexism is a good thing to have, in general.
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Aug 21, 2013 00:41
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Endorph posted:Fair enough, it just isn't being presented in the same was as, say, Shirou's sexism in F/SN. In Shirou's case, since he says his stuff aloud, characters actually call him on it. Not only that, but the female characters in that plainly and very obviously don't fit into his view of things. He's been called out on it.  I think most of his personality traits comes from his master. From what he's spoken of her, she seems like quite the hardass. Considering most of his experience around women since parting with his parents has been with his Master and JB I can kind of understand how he got that attitude. I don't think he means any harm though. Stall_19 fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Aug 21, 2013 |
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Aug 21, 2013 00:45
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Whatever image hosting site you're trying to use there, it didn't work. That said, fair enough - I'm not all that far into the game, I was just trying to vent a bit of frustration. If he does get called out on it, then good poo poo, Grisaia author/s.
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Aug 21, 2013 00:54
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Endorph posted:Doesn't this contradict your own point? First you try to take the intellectual high road, then you spin right back around and go 'man just don't think about it so much!' No, there's no contradiction; if you're truly averse to an element then either avoid the material entirely or overlook that particular if you like the rest of it. You're sorta doing the latter, that's fine, but there's something else. See, I agree sexism is a bad thing, but it's something so prevalent in general and in this case in particular (considering the cultural origins of the material), that complaining about it just sort of comes off as petulant whining unless an extreme case is presented. It's like watching a teen (drama, comedy, horror, your pick) movie and complaining when the characters partake in or implicit the consumption of alcohol or weed (because drugs are bad) - I'd understand being put off if the protagonist has a crippling addiction problem thus impacting your ability to empathize them, but you'd have to be pretty damned straight edge to consider the casual portrayal of consumption as a low point and worthy of mention in complaints. Or an example closer to home: a lot of VNs have porn, people tend to just ctrl over it, we've come to accept that some VNs are plot with porn thrown into it to sell and don't even bother bringing it up unless there's either a lot of it, a very shocking example (MLA), or someone is explicitly looking for a "clean" novel. Nephilm fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Aug 21, 2013 |
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Aug 21, 2013 01:05
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That's great, but people's world views aren't the same as yours. In my case, yes, the sexism really was starting to hamper my ability to empathize with Yuuji. What's extreme for one person might not be extreme for another - people have different standards and have experienced different things. A person with an alcoholic father, for instance, might find even a character who knocks a few back every now and then something worthy of complaint. Likewise, someone who's experienced sexism in their day-to-day life would have different standards for what constitutes sexism extreme enough to affect their enjoyment of the material. A person's experiences, personality, and general upbringing affects their world view, and that world view shapes how they parse information, up to and including fiction. Not everything outside of your world view counts as 'petulant whining.' I was getting something off my chest and looking to be reassured that yes, Yuuji does get some development in that regard. I never accused the game of being sexist, the developers of being sexist, or fans of the game of being sexist. Someone expressing a view of a work of fiction that doesn't gel with yours isn't petulant whining, it's the only thing that gives discussion of it any meaning. As an aside, something being prevalent doesn't mean it isn't worthy of complaint.
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Aug 21, 2013 01:16
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Endorph posted:Whatever image hosting site you're trying to use there, it didn't work. That's strange, it appeared for me. This work? 
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Aug 21, 2013 01:18
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Stall_19 posted:That's strange, it appeared for me. This work?
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Aug 21, 2013 01:19
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DerLeo posted:Hate Plus Hate Plus. I'm playing it right now, and jesus, The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and man being human is the worst thing sometimes. Day 2. I can't wait till this is over, I want more works in this 'universe' I mean The Lunar Wars? Ruins of Lake City? I want 23rd Century AI, going around the solar system and dealing with the chaos.
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Aug 21, 2013 01:23
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Yeah I can see how the mildly sexist comments would grate, although it's played for comedy value and the principal among other people do call him out on it sometimes. Mostly it's that the protagonist encountered a bunch of women with overpowering personalities early in his life and is generally baffled and wary of females as a result. For what it's worth, I found it refreshing how in the routes they emphasize that he wants to help the girls get their act together and become independent, as opposed to swooping in as the savior who will take care of them forever.
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Aug 21, 2013 01:25
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Speaking of which I love the Yuuji/Principal interactions. He just loves starting conversations with her by getting under her skin.
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Aug 21, 2013 01:49
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Endorph posted:That's great, but people's world views aren't the same as yours. In my case, yes, the sexism really was starting to hamper my ability to empathize with Yuuji. What's extreme for one person might not be extreme for another - people have different standards and have experienced different things. A person with an alcoholic father, for instance, might find even a character who knocks a few back every now and then something worthy of complaint. Likewise, someone who's experienced sexism in their day-to-day life would have different standards for what constitutes sexism extreme enough to affect their enjoyment of the material. That's the thing, that's the source of my "Japanse-male audience" line: you're looking at something made in loving  Now this is my initial interpretation of what you said, added with my opinions which you might not share: "Something from Japan has sexism in it!" No poo poo. Japan is super sexist and it's the once-in-a-blue-moon exception for any of their cultural products to not have sexism in either action or intent, because even their (faux) female-empowerment dealies have elements to titillate males or their fetishes, and at the other end of the spectrum you run into fujoshi-pandering sexism towards, well frankly both genders. I reckon that the person who has an alcoholic parent, and developed a heavy aversion towards alcohol consumption as a result, should probably stay away from jock fratboy movies, or something like The Hangover. Similarly... you're playing a loving erogame. In any case, because people have different worldviews, I'd say that most people in this thread have worldviews that differ from yours, and considering the general subject matter I daresay worldviews that have them calloused towards what passes for the norm of sexism in Japanese media. This means that when you bring up that "the sexism bothers me", what you cause is for people to raise eyebrows and try to analyze it in its context and see why it'd be so, particularly because your only other contributions are "it's not [sufficiently] justified" and "I'm afraid it's the authors views rather than the character's and I want it to be deconstructed" - if your intent is just to get something off your chest, then say it more clearly from the beginning: "Hey, Yuuji is too sexist for my liking, is it something that gets addressed? Does he get better?" Now that's not as vague and easier to reply to. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 21, 2013 02:00
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Nephilm, do you have some burning need to be 'right?' You aren't the barometer for what is and isn't normal, and I don't need to run my posts past your standards, cripes. Anyway, moving swiftly on from that incredibly entertaining avenue of discussion, the translator/s for Grisaia said they'd be handling the other two games too, right? It's pretty rare that a long series of VNs gets translated like this, so if they pull it off I'll be pretty impressed. I'm impressed with the quality of translation in Grisaia, too - the dialogue flows pretty naturally.
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Aug 21, 2013 02:33
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Endorph posted:
https://twitter.com/koestl/status/361576395400421376 https://twitter.com/koestl/status/365687034200866818 Yeah and the translation is really smooth. I'm impressed that it only took a little over a year to translate Grisaia considering how long it is. Shorter projects have taken longer.
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Aug 21, 2013 02:58
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It's not fair. The person I talked into reading umineko is finally in chapter 8 and the old thread evaporated from the list of threads that exist. I can't find it in the archives. I searched the archives for every year filtering by books and it's not there. The links to all the deviant art spoilerific comics were there. It's not fair. There was time now.
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Aug 21, 2013 03:06
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http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3345145 You had to look in 2013 to find it.
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Aug 21, 2013 03:09
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Oh thanks. How does the archives dealy work? It shows what threads disappeared during the year you set it to? Not the year they were made or had posts in?
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Aug 21, 2013 03:11
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Krinkle posted:Oh thanks. How does the archives dealy work? It shows what threads disappeared during the year you set it to? Not the year they were made or had posts in? It shows whatever threads had their last post in the year you've sorted by.
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Aug 21, 2013 03:13
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My reaction to the ending of Hate Plus day 2: Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaa aaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaa aaaa aaaaaaaa aaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaa
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Aug 21, 2013 05:09
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I read some more of Harukoi Otome, specifically Kisaya's route. For the most part, the route was surprisingly reasonable. Two people with similar interests treat each other with respect in their mutual hobby and gradually develop feelings for each other. Neither of them is a doormat and both at least make an attempt at being reasonable with each other. Then the duel happens and things get weird. I do appreciate that being macho was not the answer. Not actually a bad route, as generic high school VNs go. Still, the rapey confrontation was awful and the absurd after-credits scene ruined whatever emotional impact the route may have had. The VN is dumb, fanservicey and ridiculous, but the variety and shortness makes it tolerable in comparison to, say, Canvas 2. That's not saying much.
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Aug 21, 2013 19:58
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That route was pretty predictable, but not bad. As soon as the rich guy showed up I kinda knew exactly where the plot would go from there. All the routes have one of those epilogue/sex scene bits, but that's the only one that's outright silly like that.
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Aug 21, 2013 20:01
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The Devil Tesla posted:My reaction to the ending of Hate Plus day 2: Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaa aaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaa aaaa aaaaaaaa aaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaa After all that heavy stuff, I figured that the worst of it was over and Day 3 would just be gentle coming down from that emotional rollercoaster. I WAS WRONG.
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Aug 21, 2013 22:07
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Well I guess I need to play Hate Plus. I should play the first one before that right? What's it called?
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Aug 22, 2013 00:10
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Barent posted:Well I guess I need to play Hate Plus. I should play the first one before that right? What's it called? Analogue: A Hate Story, but probably ideally you should play game 1, Digital: A Love Story first, because to some extent Analogue spoils Digital.
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Aug 22, 2013 00:17
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Digital is free, by the way. http://scoutshonour.com/digital/
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Aug 22, 2013 00:18
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Barent posted:Well I guess I need to play Hate Plus. I should play the first one before that right? What's it called? Analogue: A Hate Story If you're truly penniless you can read the Let's Play but the music is fairly good and I believe there is a certain path in Hate Plus that is only accessible if you import an Analogue save; also, good work deserves to be supported.
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Aug 22, 2013 00:19
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So is it pretty obvious when you've done a days worth of Hate Plus? Mecause it seems like I've done everything possible for now, but I dunno. That locked achievement is taunting me. By the way, *Mute route thoughts: She's sure gonna keep reminding me how much she hates non-submissive women with jobs, isn't she? Betting on day 3 being *Mute having an aneurysm from all these Old Mute is a badass reports.
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Aug 22, 2013 01:39
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I just finished *Hyun-ae's route on Analogue. It was pretty enjoyable (well, a interesting story that I didn't want to put down - the actual storyline is pretty depressing). Am I wrong in assuming that the reactor meltdown is how you pick a route? It looks like you have to shut down either *Hyun-ae or *Mute to have enough power to keep running on secondary power without the reactor. *Hyun-ae also fills me with extremely mixed feelings...she's kind of endearing because she wants so badly to be liked by you, but on the other hand I just inwardly cringe at myself for thinking that since she acts that way also because she's an incredibly lonely and broken person. I guess that's probably entirely intentional considering the "Mai waifu" achievement and the description for it, though. I also made the mistake of looking at the tvtropes page and the reviews specifically, and apparently Joseon Korea in space stories are hate speech against men.
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Aug 22, 2013 02:24
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Pornographic Memory posted:I just finished *Hyun-ae's route on Analogue. It was pretty enjoyable (well, a interesting story that I didn't want to put down - the actual storyline is pretty depressing). Am I wrong in assuming that the reactor meltdown is how you pick a route? It looks like you have to shut down either *Hyun-ae or *Mute to have enough power to keep running on secondary power without the reactor. Actually, you're already locked into the route by then. You can't switch AIs during the meltdown. There's also an exception for the canonically impossible route, but that routes not very serious.
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Aug 22, 2013 02:32
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vkeios posted:So is it pretty obvious when you've done a days worth of Hate Plus? Mecause it seems like I've done everything possible for now, but I dunno. That locked achievement is taunting me. By the way, *Mute route thoughts: She's sure gonna keep reminding me how much she hates non-submissive women with jobs, isn't she? Betting on day 3 being *Mute having an aneurysm from all these Old Mute is a badass reports. It's super obvious, the characters actually say goodnight. You have to disable the ais and then extract enough documents to use up all the power, and then read those documents, before the sequence that says "day is over" happens.
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Aug 22, 2013 03:15
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vkeios posted:So is it pretty obvious when you've done a days worth of Hate Plus? Mecause it seems like I've done everything possible for now, but I dunno. That locked achievement is taunting me. By the way, *Mute route thoughts: She's sure gonna keep reminding me how much she hates non-submissive women with jobs, isn't she? Betting on day 3 being *Mute having an aneurysm from all these Old Mute is a badass reports. Yuppppp
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Aug 22, 2013 03:16
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Grisaia- I love the running gag across a few of the routes of hearing from a secondhand source the various disasters that strike Michiru whenever they visit a festival. Actually things didn't go too well for her at the beach either. I think the lesson to be learned is never take Michiru anywhere.
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Aug 22, 2013 09:40
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| # ? Jun 7, 2024 16:08 |
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Just finished Digital: A Love Story and then *Hyun-ae's route on Analogue. That was pretty depressing and all but god those achievement names are great. Gonna youtube the other endings and then move on to Hate:Plus! Really dug the music in Analogue.
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Aug 22, 2013 13:12
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