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I feel like the Cabal was something Abnett was requested to shoehorn in, and the ending of Legion (the ease upon which the vision is just accepted) left a bad taste in my mouth on what was an otherwise great book.
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Aug 22, 2013 18:26
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wiegieman posted:They're not really that important, they just think they are. You can't out-scheme Chaos, but you can out-fight them. That's why the Cabal won't accomplish anything. We know how the Heresy ends, and it ends the way Chaos wants it to. I think it's the fact that there is an entity somehow operating in the shadows that is outside the knowledge of Chaos or the Emperor that bothers me most. But I guess that's reading into a dumb idea too much, and in the next HH book they could casually mention how they're actually just an indirect agency of Tzeentch, knowingly or not. Just as easily as they were introduced, I suppose they could be written off.
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Aug 22, 2013 18:31
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TheStampede posted:Yeah, the idea that there is and even greater all-seeing, all-knowing force above even chaos or the Emperor is just pushing it. You can't have the most ultimate, powerful force in the universe, then introduce another most ultimate, powerful force in the universe, and then ano...
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Aug 22, 2013 18:33
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Lead Psychiatry posted:I like the idea behind the Cabal, and think it makes sense that a variety of species would collaborate against Chaos who they've been dealing with for who knows how many millennia. Also could be because my only exposure to the WH40K universe is through the novels and it just fit in neatly for me without toying with fluff you guys have enjoyed. The Cabal makes sense when you think about it since numerous other species and races in the galaxy are aware of Chaos and would probably unite to fight against it. I always figured that their plan to use the Primarchs fails because they fundamentally don't understand how humanity works. Anonymous Zebra posted:I'd argue that it didn't end the way Chaos wanted it to, but we won't find out for sure until the HH books reach the climax and we see how Lorgar, Erebus, The Cabal, etc. actually respond to Horus dying. I think it's arguable that Horus dying was not part of the plan. Doesn't Chaos win at the end just by existing? There doesn't seem to be any scenario possible where Chaos doesn't win since it exists outside time and space.
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Aug 22, 2013 19:27
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I think the end of the HH is like the end of the 13th black crusade, neither side can claim true victory, but the result an acceptable state of affairs.
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Aug 22, 2013 19:36
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Who wrote the fluff sections of the 6th edition core rulebook? It's beautiful writing. There are three authors listed for this book.
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Aug 22, 2013 20:14
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Kegslayer posted:The Cabal makes sense when you think about it since numerous other species and races in the galaxy are aware of Chaos and would probably unite to fight against it. I always figured that their plan to use the Primarchs fails because they fundamentally don't understand how humanity works. I think they failed cause they were just that stupid. Yes a species that spent 40,000 years building itself up enough to conquer whole solar systems is just going to call it quits to avoid ten millennia of hardship. I'm sure those silly humans don't have a survival instinct or anything. Great plan guys, now who should we call? At the least if the Cabal was so willing to sacrifice humanity just to kill off Chaos they should've, yanno, actually tried manipulating them instead of "Here are your options. Got that? Good. Bye!" Abnett's way better than that. It's a bit disheartening to have to sum it up in such a way with him and not one of the other authors. But it ended up being just that bad.
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Aug 22, 2013 20:31
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ADB did a bit of a fluff dump at his site, posting some internal stuff they have developed on how to write Abbadon. It is pretty interesting http://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2013/08/22/lets-talk-about-abaddon/
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Aug 22, 2013 20:58
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Fried Chicken posted:ADB did a bit of a fluff dump at his site, posting some internal stuff they have developed on how to write Abbadon. It is pretty interesting quote:Abaddon has not failed because he is wilful or incompetent. He has mustered the greatest armies since the Heresy and unleashed them upon the material universe. He has amassed power and influence within the Eye of Terror greater than any primarch. He has done this through feat of arms and personality, but the one thing he can never truly do, because it is anathema to Chaos, is truly unite the ruinous powers. They can only come together in dominance, not subservience. Whenever Abaddon has been on the brink of victory his backers break ranks, seeking to gain some last-minute short-term advantage. That was a really, really good explanation of Abbadon and his motives.
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Aug 22, 2013 21:29
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berzerkmonkey posted:Mind blown. The Black Crusades don't fail because of Abbadon's incompetence or Imperial resistance - they fail because that one faction steals the ball from Abbadon and tries to make the winning shot to steal all the glory. I maintain that the real reason for Abbadon always losing is because he doesn't have any arms  Although this does bring up in my mind another funny armageddon scenario to tack on to the Star Child/Tyranids eat everything/Gork 'n Mork krump everything scenarios: Abaddon suddenly goes "Why am I drawing on Chaos, Chaos sucks and stabs me in the back every goddamn time," and either goes completely neutral or rejoins the Imperium with the Black Legion. I'd imagine a Black Legion with a repentant Abaddon and purged of demonic influence would be incredibly powerful.
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Aug 22, 2013 22:19
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Pyrolocutus posted:I maintain that the real reason for Abbadon always losing is because he doesn't have any arms Why would he abandon Chaos? They are a powerful tool in his arsenal, he just has to make sure nobody can steal the ball before ultimate victory.
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Aug 22, 2013 23:22
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Also has an undying hatred of the Imperium.
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Aug 22, 2013 23:29
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Kegslayer posted:The Cabal makes sense when you think about it since numerous other species and races in the galaxy are aware of Chaos and would probably unite to fight against it. I always figured that their plan to use the Primarchs fails because they fundamentally don't understand how humanity works. Unless the warp is successfully pacified and the chaos powers lose their sentience and are reduced to vague elemental forces too busy struggling with each other to directly interact with the material world beyond the most distant symbolism. berzerkmonkey posted:Mind blown. The Black Crusades don't fail because of Abbadon's incompetence or Imperial resistance - they fail because that one faction steals the ball from Abbadon and tries to make the winning shot to steal all the glory. Also the Black Legion Codex Supplement makes the case that each of his Black Crusades has actually been a limited success, and that each one represents another move in a game of 4D chess that he's slowly winning. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 02:09 on Aug 23, 2013 |
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Aug 23, 2013 02:06
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That's really interesting because one of the vibes I've always gotten from the 40K fluff in the codices and more poorly-written fiction (at least the recent stuff after the grimdarkness disappeared up its own rear end in a top hat) is that you aren't supposed to be able to win, long-term, with Chaos. When it comes to the universe, Chaos is the house and everyone knows the house always wins. You might think you're drawing on the power of Slaanesh to set up an empire of relatively benign bohemian art orgies, but in reality it's just a pretense to flay all the skin from your bones. (Slaanesh in particular is really bad about having everything come back to flaying. I guess when your only tool is the razor-sharp claws you have for hands, you try to solve every problem the same way.) So either that's not actually true (which would be a welcome dose of nuance) or Abaddon is the special snowflake chosen savant. I hope it's not the latter and I'd like to think if it was entirely up to people of ADB's caliber it wouldn't be, but that might be how it ends up playing out.
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Aug 23, 2013 03:22
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JerryLee posted:So either that's not actually true (which would be a welcome dose of nuance) or Abaddon is the special snowflake chosen savant. I hope it's not the latter and I'd like to think if it was entirely up to people of ADB's caliber it wouldn't be, but that might be how it ends up playing out. That's the thing: is Abaddon that much of a badass/mary sue, or is it simply that he hasn't lost yet? There are several characters like that either skirt the line between righteousness and corruption, or which chaos has an interest in seeing embrace them completely, and the story always boils down to whether they fall or die before falling... because in the long term everyone falls. Abaddon just happens to be one of the most eminent figures in 40k, but it's the same type of story for say, a Radical Inquisitor. On the other end of the spectrum and besides the horrible wardian fluff, you have a certain space marine Samurai Jack.
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Aug 23, 2013 03:32
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Abaddon lost a long, long time ago. He just hasn't figured it out yet, or else he's just stopped caring and at this point is basically an automaton. The obsession he's dedicated his life to is worthless and hollow, and everything he once served or desired had been gone for ten thousand years. Even if he actually succeeds and destroys the Imperium, then what? There's nothing left but an eternity of formless nothingness as chaos destroys the laws of the material universe. You could even argue that basically be wants to commit suicide, except on his own terms as a winner because his pride and whatever brainwashing makes up his psyche won't allow him any other out. The Space Marines themselves aren't really that interesting and ultimately without their original mission they have nothing to live for beyond dumb bullshit like revenge or petty power struggles because they were expressly created to serve mankind, not replace it. At least, that's another interpretation you could make.JerryLee posted:That's really interesting because one of the vibes I've always gotten from the 40K fluff in the codices and more poorly-written fiction (at least the recent stuff after the grimdarkness disappeared up its own rear end in a top hat) is that you aren't supposed to be able to win, long-term, with Chaos. When it comes to the universe, Chaos is the house and everyone knows the house always wins. You might think you're drawing on the power of Slaanesh to set up an empire of relatively benign bohemian art orgies, but in reality it's just a pretense to flay all the skin from your bones. (Slaanesh in particular is really bad about having everything come back to flaying. I guess when your only tool is the razor-sharp claws you have for hands, you try to solve every problem the same way.) Well, most depictions of a fall to chaos are just rehashes of far older mythic tropes on the dangers of excess and meaninglessness for positive things. Martial strength and force, for instance, can be good when necessary, but they are dangerous in excess or when they become ends unto themselves. Evil is the absence of the good, or the loss of that higher purpose to actions, and usually that class of myths deals with the fragility and often short-lived nature of that purposefulness. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Aug 23, 2013 |
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Aug 23, 2013 03:58
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Cream_Filling posted:Abaddon lost a long, long time ago. He just hasn't figured it out yet, or else he's just stopped caring and at this point is basically an automaton. The obsession he's dedicated his life to is worthless and hollow, and everything he once served or desired had been gone for ten thousand years. Even if he actually succeeds and destroys the Imperium, then what? There's nothing left but an eternity of formless nothingness as chaos destroys the laws of the material universe. You could even argue that basically be wants to commit suicide, except on his own terms as a winner because his pride and whatever brainwashing makes up his psyche won't allow him any other out. The Space Marines themselves aren't really that interesting and ultimately without their original mission they have nothing to live for beyond dumb bullshit like revenge or petty power struggles because they were expressly created to serve mankind, not replace it. At least, that's another interpretation you could make. Actually, what ADB is going for is that Abaddon desires to rule humanity. Not destroy the Imperium, but seize it, take over. Succeed where Horus and the Primarchs failed and become a new Emperor, and do so with the intent to maintain this power, whereas Horus had already turned into a nihilistic tool of the four gods towards the end of the heresy. Space Marines are not to replace mankind, but in fact go by something more akin to Guilliman's own interpretation: rule over it. Become leaders, diplomats and experts, to stand above normal humans and guide them. Again, this ties into ADB's take on Abaddon, which is the belief that the Emperor and the Primarchs were fundamentally flawed due to being inhuman gods. In his view, only mortals are fit to rule over mortals, and for all their enhancements and superiority, that is what astartes still are.
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Aug 23, 2013 04:14
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Nephilm posted:Actually, what ADB is going for is that Abaddon desires to rule humanity. Not destroy the Imperium, but seize it, take over. Succeed where Horus and the Primarchs failed and become a new Emperor, and do so with the intent to maintain this power, whereas Horus had already turned into a nihilistic tool of the four gods towards the end of the heresy. I know, I'm giving an alternative to his take on it based on the previous reading of the character. Similarly, Space Marines (though not Primarchs) seem to be singularly poorly equipped to be diplomats or leaders, considering how distanced they are from normal humanity and their often tenuous grip on normal human society. This may just be wishful thinking from Guilliman, who doesn't want to admit the fact that either the Space Marines will never be unnecessary and peace will never be perfect or else that the Marines will one day make themselves unnecessary. Alternatively it's a nod to various classical utopian writings that require benevolent god-kings. You could also argue the opposite and say that the purpose of the Marines in the ideal imperium would be to free normal humanity from ever having to engage in warfare at all. Sort of like how robots in the previous age were supposed to free humanity from unpleasant labor. Also, I think his version from that blog post is somewhat of a rehash of the stuff that he has Erebus saying in his Word Bearers novels. Honestly I'm on the fence about it. I kind of prefer Abbadon as a grieving son in denial with ultimately a lack of vision beyond his immediate goals versus ADB's wannabe-emperor. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 05:13 on Aug 23, 2013 |
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Aug 23, 2013 05:04
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I like it. I think 40k has enough near-sighted characters (particularly towards the m40 timeline) that it's good to have one that's not motivated just with delaying the extinction of his species or carving some minor domain or fulfilling some oath - instead a character who aims to win. To win completely, and is in a position where although uncertain and difficult, said victory is something they can make possible.
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Aug 23, 2013 05:21
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I can't keep reading Deliverance Lost. I hate the alpha legion, and I especially hate when any book they're in automatically becomes a super-complicated spy novel with a dozen moving pieces and plot twists.
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Aug 23, 2013 05:34
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Protons posted:I can't keep reading Deliverance Lost. I hate the alpha legion, and I especially hate when any book they're in automatically becomes a super-complicated spy novel with a dozen moving pieces and plot twists. Look at you and your opinions. It's all groupthink all the time here, no independent thought allowed.
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Aug 23, 2013 05:36
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To be fair, it's a good PSA to remind people Deliverance Lost sucks poo poo.
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Aug 23, 2013 05:39
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VanSandman posted:Look at you and your opinions. It's all groupthink all the time here, no independent thought allowed. It's sad too because it's Gav Thorpe who wrote it, and he's got a solid reputation for good books. It also sucks because Raven Guard are one of the few loyalist legions that don't seem to be full of poo poo. I wanted to read about how Corax went batty trying to replenish his legion with haste so he could gently caress-start the faces of the traitor legions, but was unable to perfect it because he's not Big E and probably did something wrong. Instead I'm left reading excrutiating minutia related to the machinations of the infinitely scheming Alpha Legion and some bullshit on Mars. gently caress you, Gav  I do have an interest in the Night Lords now, despite their cheese ball legion name. They don't get as much time in the lime light as even the loving alpha legion, and from what I can glean from some fluff is Konrad was probably a very noble guy who stuck to his convictions. Luckily there is a trilogy about the Night Lords, and it's written by ADB. ADB, who seems to have a nice following around here. Plus, their armor sparkles 
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Aug 23, 2013 05:45
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Nephilm posted:Actually, what ADB is going for is that Abaddon desires to rule humanity. Not destroy the Imperium, but seize it, take over. Succeed where Horus and the Primarchs failed and become a new Emperor, and do so with the intent to maintain this power, whereas Horus had already turned into a nihilistic tool of the four gods towards the end of the heresy.
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Aug 23, 2013 05:49
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Protons posted:It's sad too because it's Gav Thorpe who wrote it, and he's got a solid reputation for good books. Actually, Gav Thorpe has a reputation for mediocre-to-bad fluff writing and even worse gamebook rules. The Night Lord's trilogy is excellent, and the only good Alpha Legion book is Legion by Abnett; everything else sucks.
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Aug 23, 2013 05:53
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Protons posted:It's sad too because it's Gav Thorpe who wrote it, and he's got a solid reputation for good books. It also sucks because Raven Guard are one of the few loyalist legions that don't seem to be full of poo poo. I wanted to read about how Corax went batty trying to replenish his legion with haste so he could gently caress-start the faces of the traitor legions, but was unable to perfect it because he's not Big E and probably did something wrong. Instead I'm left reading excrutiating minutia related to the machinations of the infinitely scheming Alpha Legion and some bullshit on Mars. gently caress you, Gav Gotta disagree here - I think Gav Thorpe is a pretty bad writer.
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Aug 23, 2013 05:54
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quote:I do have an interest in the Night Lords now, despite their cheese ball legion name. They don't get as much time in the lime light as even the loving alpha legion, and from what I can glean from some fluff is Konrad was probably a very noble guy who stuck to his convictions. Luckily there is a trilogy about the Night Lords, and it's written by ADB. ADB, who seems to have a nice following around here. Hahahaha! AHAHAHAHA! Man are you in for a treat!
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Aug 23, 2013 05:59
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Yeah I'll go ahead and say that Konrad Curze is not Christopher Nolan's Batman. But Talos is definitely the hero the VIII Legion deserved. 
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Aug 23, 2013 06:04
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VanSandman posted:Hahahaha! AHAHAHAHA! Man are you in for a treat! Are you saying to avoid the trilogy? I don't want to waste more money on garbage like I did with Deliverance Lost.
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Aug 23, 2013 06:23
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That image makes me understand why the Night Lords attack in the night and employ stealthy maneuvers to get to their prey: Cause if their victims saw them coming they'd start awwing and making comments on how adorable those little wings on their suits are.Protons posted:Are you saying to avoid the trilogy? I don't want to waste more money on garbage like I did with Deliverance Lost. Noooo. Get the trilogy. It's one of the best set of books. Just tone down the assumptions a tad.
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Aug 23, 2013 06:25
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Protons posted:Are you saying to avoid the trilogy? I don't want to waste more money on garbage like I did with Deliverance Lost. The Night Lords trilogy is top tier BL stuff, get them posthaste.
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Aug 23, 2013 06:29
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Protons posted:Are you saying to avoid the trilogy? I don't want to waste more money on garbage like I did with Deliverance Lost. Absolutely not. Buy them. Be aware that what you expect is not what you'll get, though!
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Aug 23, 2013 07:49
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VanSandman posted:Absolutely not. Buy them. Be aware that what you expect is not what you'll get, though! Unless what you expect is arguably the best piece of fiction BL has released. And I only say arguably because ADB went on to write Betrayer afterwards.
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Aug 23, 2013 07:52
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ADB's post was great, but it's still pretty hard to take Abbaddon seriously when he hasn't managed to take Cadia after ten thousand years of trying. Even granting the incredible difficulties he faces and the tightrope he has to walk, he's still the saturday morning cartoon villain of the 40kverse (and given his competition, that's saying a lot). His galaxy shattering rage comes from his inability to twirl his mustache without arms. I want to like the Alpha Legion, but all of their stories collapse under their need to be the sneaky legion whether it makes any sense or not.
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Aug 23, 2013 08:23
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What is this business of Abaddon having no arms?
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Aug 23, 2013 08:35
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Potooweet posted:ADB's post was great, but it's still pretty hard to take Abbaddon seriously when he hasn't managed to take Cadia after ten thousand years of trying. Even granting the incredible difficulties he faces and the tightrope he has to walk, he's still the saturday morning cartoon villain of the 40kverse (and given his competition, that's saying a lot). His galaxy shattering rage comes from his inability to twirl his mustache without arms. After that post, I'm really looking forward to ADB's take on Abaddon as the Emperor reborn. There's hope for a character like Abaddon if people like Abnett can characterise someone who traditionally had not personality like Angron or breathe new life into a chapter like the Ultramarines.
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Aug 23, 2013 08:42
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Protons posted:What is this business of Abaddon having no arms? The Abaddon model used for the tabletop has a bad case of 'arms fall off too much' disease.
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Aug 23, 2013 10:08
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VanSandman posted:The Abaddon model used for the tabletop has a bad case of 'arms fall off too much' disease. Sounds like scrubs need to magnetize their minis 
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Aug 23, 2013 10:33
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Potooweet posted:ADB's post was great, but it's still pretty hard to take Abbaddon seriously when he hasn't managed to take Cadia after ten thousand years of trying. Yeah, what a failure. It's not like Cadia is the most heavily defended planet in the galaxy aside from Holy Terra itself, and the Imperium loses huge swaths of territory each time he launches a Black Crusade from having to pull back fleets an armies from all across its expanse in order to reinforce that single chokepoint, and just barely manages to do so each time. Oh wait... Well, he still can't manage it the loser, always running away with lovely consolation prizes like star destroying weapons, archives of forbidden and extremely powerful knowledge, permanently loving over the Imperium by destroying or capturing priceless STCs, and every so often killing some no-name redshirt like the most powerful Eldar psyker in the galaxy.
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Aug 23, 2013 12:12
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Yeah so he does all that, and a Winston Churchill parody and a succession of dubiously interesting Eldar seem to unite at the last minute and kill him off. 13 black crusades and the biggest (military) threat to the imperium is not this supposed super-genius villain with his 10,000 year revenge obsession but a load of space bugs?
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Aug 23, 2013 12:55
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