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Lexicon posted:You're aware that cars can be financed over different length time periods? The guy said the car was 22k, so $900/month => a 2 year term. I'd have amortized it over longer myself if the principal and offered rate remained the same, but this is all orthogonal to whether or not Canada has a housing bubble. I just like the contrasting of financing a deprecating asset, then complaining about the injustice of Vancouver's market. One of the reasons Canada's market is like this is because (most) people suck at basic finance.
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Aug 21, 2013 19:28
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The problem with a housing bubble isn't that prices are high, it's that people are over-leveraging themselves on an asset they assume can only go up in value. There's a huge difference between opting to pay twice as much on a car (and potentially pay it off twice as fast), and opting to pay twice as much on a a full-term mortgage because you're expecting some huge ROI in a few years.
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Aug 21, 2013 19:52
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Lexicon posted:You're aware that cars can be financed over different length time periods? The guy said the car was 22k, so $900/month => a 2 year term. I'd have amortized it over longer myself if the principal and offered rate remained the same, but this is all orthogonal to whether or not Canada has a housing bubble. Yeah. Presumably there's much less interest to be paid, so the total amount paid to buy the car will be less than if it were financed over a longer term with a lower payment. If you believe a high payment on a car to reduce the term of the loan is inherently bad, then taking it to its natural conclusion, you would arrive at the idea that buying a car outright (thus paying no interest) is the worst move you could make, which is obvious nonsense.
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Aug 21, 2013 19:55
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We were going to pay cash but the 2 year finance was at .99 and our investments do way better than that so they were basically paying us to finance. The rates went up if you paid out longer. The entire interest of the car will be like $200 and we'll be making way more than that on 22k being invested over 2 years.
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Aug 21, 2013 19:55
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This is the best series of posts I've ever seen on why buying new cars can be a humungous waste of money. I'm not saying it's a bad decision for you Baronjutter, but holy poo poo, the motherfuckers who think nothing of plunking down 50k for an impreza sti...gently caress
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Aug 21, 2013 20:35
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Cultural Imperial posted:This is the best series of posts I've ever seen on why buying new cars can be a humungous waste of money. I'm not saying it's a bad decision for you Baronjutter, but holy poo poo, the motherfuckers who think nothing of plunking down 50k for an impreza sti...gently caress I "knew" what I was getting into, but the reality of living with frivolous debt hanging around your neck is way worse than any spreadsheet budget can tell.
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Aug 21, 2013 20:38
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You're overreacting. With good credit it's not a big deal. I was rear ended this month and had a complete writeoff. I replaced the car with a new VW, so not even the best resale value. By financing they knocked $1500 of the principal and I'm paying 0% over 5 years. I can invest the money from the insurance cheque, pay with inflated dollars down the road, and it is really a no brainer if you have the cashflow.
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Aug 21, 2013 22:21
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Fuzzy Mammal posted:You're overreacting. With good credit it's not a big deal.
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Aug 21, 2013 23:19
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We looked to buy used but the Fit holds its value crazy loving well. It like loses maybe 1k a year and it was really hard to find any decent post 2009 ones because no one wants to sell their fits because they are kinda the best. So it was either a new one for 20k or 2010 for 18k. We also wanted to pay cash but when the 0.99 2 year financing was mentioned we jumped on that because debt you're making money on is good debt, we'd be idiots to pay cash and lose the potential interest we could have been making investing that money. That and absolutely no plans to buy anything for at LEAST 2 years, maybe never. We also got a really good full-replacement policy for 7 years. I mean even if prices here dropped 20-30% suddenly in a huge crash, buying is still kinda crazy. We've basically figured out that unless we win a lottery or something we'll never own a house or townhouse or duplex or anything and we'd be stuck in a lovely wood-frame condo. Who knows, maybe in 5 years we'll be making more money, the market will have crashed or cooled off, and we'll find some rad duplex or row-house we can afford. But for the short term it makes way more sense to keep hobbitin' it here in the basement and think about renting if we can find a nice place for the right price. I do wish finding rentals was as easy as houses. There's no MLS type thing for rentals, instead there's a bunch of competing lovely mls-like map things for apartments that only ever have a tiny fraction of what's actually available. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Aug 21, 2013 |
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Aug 21, 2013 23:36
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Pixelboy posted:I wonder how much additional house buying power the dude above us in this thread would have if he wasn't dealing with a $900 car payment.  Are you suggesting that one should be prepared to shovel every available cent into an asset class without regard to the value one receives or whether or not the entire country might be getting carried away with pricing? Because it sure sounds like you're saying that. Here's a contrived, but instructive analogy: suppose I have a $900 car payment but otherwise reasonable monthly cash flow and savings, and one night I am hungry but don't feel like cooking. A pizza shop down the street is selling pizzas for $150. I object to that price, not because I can't afford it per se, but because there is too great a mismatch between the price of the pizza, and what I feel the value to me is. Then you come along and say "think of the additional pizza buying power you'd have if you weren't dealing with a $900 car payment". See how stupid an attitude that is? It's not any wiser when you replace pizza with property.
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Aug 21, 2013 23:38
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Pizza prices are only going up man. Buy now or you'll be priced out of the market.
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Aug 21, 2013 23:43
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Baronjutter posted:We looked to buy used but the Fit holds its value crazy loving well. It like loses maybe 1k a year and it was really hard to find any decent post 2009 ones because no one wants to sell their fits because they are kinda the best. So it was either a new one for 20k or 2010 for 18k. We also wanted to pay cash but when the 0.99 2 year financing was mentioned we jumped on that because debt you're making money on is good debt, we'd be idiots to pay cash and lose the potential interest we could have been making investing that money. That and absolutely no plans to buy anything for at LEAST 2 years, maybe never. We also got a really good full-replacement policy for 7 years. Fits are awesome, and yours will serve you very well, but you are probably being a tad optimistic on depreciation. I bought mine (a 2007 model) in 2010 for $10k. Only now is it in the $1k a year part of the depreciation curve. But regardless, keep it for a long time.  Fits.
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Aug 21, 2013 23:44
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Baronjutter posted:Pizza prices are only going up man. Buy now or you'll be priced out of the market. People saying that pizza prices are going to crash are just a bunch of scammers trying to get people to throw their money away on single slices!
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Aug 22, 2013 01:43
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Number Two Stunna posted:People saying that pizza prices are going to crash are just a bunch of scammers trying to get people to throw their money away on single slices! Single slices are available for $3; whole pizzas are $150. "You're throwing your money away on singles, man! Everyone knows it's a better deal in the long run to buy whole"
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Aug 22, 2013 03:38
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Lexicon posted:Single slices are available for $3; whole pizzas are $150. "You're throwing your money away on singles, man! Everyone knows it's a better deal in the long run to buy whole" "By the way would anyone happen to want to buy a slice of my whole?"
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Aug 22, 2013 03:43
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Lexicon posted:Single slices are available for $3; whole pizzas are $150. "You're throwing your money away on singles, man! Everyone knows it's a better deal in the long run to buy whole" Um excuse me, you just screwed up this analogy. You're supposed to give the $3 slices back when you're done with them. Or have them taken away by the owner of the pizza parlour tyvm
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Aug 22, 2013 03:57
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Cultural Imperial posted:Um excuse me, you just screwed up this analogy. You're supposed to give the $3 slices back when you're done with them. Or have them taken away by the owner of the pizza parlour tyvm Hah, yeah. I regretted it as soon as I posted it in fact. Consider it withdrawn... the only point about pizzas I need to make is the one where they are expensive and I have a car payment
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Aug 22, 2013 15:51
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Cultural Imperial posted:This is the best series of posts I've ever seen on why buying new cars can be a humungous waste of money. I'm not saying it's a bad decision for you Baronjutter, but holy poo poo, the motherfuckers who think nothing of plunking down 50k for an impreza sti...gently caress Who are you to judge people for choosing to spend income they have on things they want? I'm guessing the people buying STIs brand new know full well what they're getting themselves into and choose to do it anyway. Do you also criticize people for spending their money on nice vacations and going out to restaurants and bars?
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Aug 22, 2013 17:08
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PT6A posted:Who are you to judge people for choosing to spend income they have on things they want? I'm guessing the people buying STIs brand new know full well what they're getting themselves into and choose to do it anyway. Do you also criticize people for spending their money on nice vacations and going out to restaurants and bars? Yes I do actually. My judgement is based upon the broad generalization that most Vancouverites are carrying too much debt. We know this because of: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...article4181115/ http://www.vancouversun.com/business/High+student+debt+levels+stress+students+lead+delays+starting+families/8785183/story.html https://www.vancouversun.com/business/Canadians+going+overboard+consumer+debt+British+Columbians+most+money+with+video/7549887/story.html Who am I to judge? This isn't about judgement. This is about instrospection. We've been provided with a plethora of examples to what happens when a country's collective consumer debt levels go too high, while real estate markets are in a bubble state. This is also a loving lamentation that we are simply repeating the mistakes that have taken place in the very recent past. When all these motherfuckers gorge out on their credit cards, helocs and pay day loans, everyone's standard of living declines when it comes time to collect and oops, no one could really afford their nice vacations, restaurant and bar bills, and impreza STIs. You know how else we know this? The median family income in BC is $66k/year. This is family income, meaning two breadwinners. The average non-mortgage debt load per person in BC is $38619. http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil107a-eng.htm http://www.vancouversun.com/business/mortgages/Average+mortgage+debt+grows/8478530/story.html Wait these are just numbers. I have no right to judge. or make any sort of moral argument against profligacy.
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Aug 22, 2013 17:32
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Cultural Imperial posted:Wait these are just numbers. I have no right to judge. or make any sort of moral argument against profligacy. How do you know if these people do or don't have the income to afford these things without cutting into savings or going into debt? Carrying high levels of consumer debt is indeed a bad thing, but you don't know for sure that the people buying $50k cars are going massively into debt to pay for them. Presumably, they know what the payments are, know how much will be spent, and know how much they make. If they decide $X/month is an appropriate price to pay for the thing they want, and they can afford to pay it, it's their business.
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Aug 22, 2013 19:22
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We know that on average these people do not have the income to afford these things from the fact that the average person in BC is in (non-mortgage) debt to the tune of their annual salary (as Cultural Imperial posted at the end of his post). Sure there will be outliers, but I think it's safe to say that the majority of people getting a loan for a $50K car cannot actually afford it. As for it being "their business": it becomes everybody's business when the economy tanks from the housing bubble bursting, they lose their job / get downsized and suddenly have to default on the ton of debt they could just barely service.
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Aug 22, 2013 20:12
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Lead out in cuffs posted:We know that on average these people do not have the income to afford these things from the fact that the average person in BC is in (non-mortgage) debt to the tune of their annual salary (as Cultural Imperial posted at the end of his post). Is the person making the average salary really the one buying a $50,000 car? If this is a common thing for people making the average salary, I'll concede, but I don't think by any stretch of the imagination that this is truly the case, and no evidence has thus far been presented that it is.
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Aug 22, 2013 20:18
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Forget the car. The point I really want to make is that the average debt load per person is too high when you compare it to the median family income. Stop loving spending money you don't have.
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Aug 22, 2013 20:23
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Stop buying Impreza STis guys, you're driving up the price to unsustainable levels and now I can't afford one. The government needs to ban foreigners from buying STis and start taxing people who buy them and only drive the speed limit. 
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Aug 22, 2013 20:35
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Cultural Imperial posted:Forget the car. The point I really want to make is that the average debt load per person is too high when you compare it to the median family income. Stop loving spending money you don't have. That's a great point; however, it has nothing to do with people buying nice cars (or any other luxury goods) provided they can afford them. I took offence to your original post because it sounded like you were angry at people for spending money on nice things.
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Aug 22, 2013 20:37
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Capitalism would probably be pretty stable if you could convince workers to live like acetic monks in the face of staggering wealth inequality.
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Aug 22, 2013 20:46
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PT6A posted:That's a great point; however, it has nothing to do with people buying nice cars (or any other luxury goods) provided they can afford them. I took offence to your original post because it sounded like you were angry at people for spending money on nice things. I don't know, I think it was pretty obvious what he was getting at.
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Aug 22, 2013 21:02
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Persona non grata posted:Capitalism would probably be pretty stable if you could convince workers to live like acetic monks in the face of staggering wealth inequality. Is it really unreasonable to expect people to live within their means? I feel like I've just asked a whole bunch of you to rub semen on your mother's sheets.
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Aug 22, 2013 21:04
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Cultural Imperial posted:Is it really unreasonable to expect people to live within their means? I feel like I've just asked a whole bunch of you to rub semen on your mother's sheets. It is unreasonable to expect someone to work their whole life away making the good life possible for other people, and not be able to enjoy it themselves.
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Aug 22, 2013 21:12
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"That shits expensive yo! You sure you can cover it?" The rallying cry of the over-class when looking down upon the indentured masses. Thanks thread. ocrumsprug fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Aug 22, 2013 |
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Aug 22, 2013 21:28
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Cultural Imperial posted:Is it really unreasonable to expect people to live within their means? I feel like I've just asked a whole bunch of you to rub semen on your mother's sheets. Persona non grata posted:It is unreasonable to expect someone to work their whole life away making the good life possible for other people, and not be able to enjoy it themselves. I don't honestly believe that this is a dichotomy. Clearly the growing wealth gap is a bad thing, but trying to address that with personal debt is a pretty terrible idea. The correct tools for addressing a wealth gap are things like progressive taxation, worker-protective labour laws, government regulation of the housing market, and a living minimum wage. None of those preclude encouraging fiscal responsibility, and being worried about ballooning personal debt does not automatically translate to bootstraps.
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Aug 22, 2013 22:12
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Exactly. Whatever your politics, shrugging off massive personal indebtedness seems highly foolish. It's not any kind of solution to whatever you think ails society.
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Aug 22, 2013 22:18
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In case there's any confusion, in no way am I saying that inequality can be solved exclusively with 'personal responsibility'.
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Aug 22, 2013 22:22
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Part of me is mad at so many idiots getting into crippling debt they have no hope of repaying, but part of me doesn't fully blame them either. We're constantly bombarded with billions of dollars worth of marketing telling us we need to buy X and deserve X. The entire financial industry pushes debt on people. Our society tells us we're entitled to a car and a house. We're working just as hard as our parents did, if not harder, and we're a hell of a lot more productive, why can't we have what they had? And a lot of it isn't some working class guy buying a super car he can't afford. It's a single mom buying a replacement van for her family because her lovely used astro finally died. It's people (yes even in canada) going into debt for medical reasons or disability. It's loving student debt. It's a new roof on your family house that you can barely pay the rapidly inflating taxes on. Ban or heavily regulate the entire marketing industry, brutally regulate finance, institute some proper taxation, correctly fund social serives, and THEN you can scoff and look down on idiots crippling them selves with debt. Hell I'd like to see a full on guaranteed income system and a vast government housing system guaranteeing everyone income and housing but I'm a literal communist so what ever. Also maybe just maybe teach some basic fuckin' personal finance skills in highschool I don't know. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Aug 22, 2013 |
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Aug 22, 2013 23:10
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Cultural Imperial posted:Yes I do actually. My judgement is based upon the broad generalization that most Vancouverites are carrying too much debt. We know this because of: That said, being over-leveraged is a problem but you can't blame the debtors - the problem is that the interest rates are being held artificially low by multiple parties which creates bubbles. But as usual, corruption and greed drives short term decisions with long term consequences. cowofwar fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Aug 22, 2013 |
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Aug 22, 2013 23:17
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Cultural Imperial posted:In case there's any confusion, in no way am I saying that inequality can be solved exclusively with 'personal responsibility'. You may have mispoken, but you clearly laid the blame on debtors exclusively.
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Aug 22, 2013 23:22
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Baronjutter posted:Also maybe just maybe teach some basic fuckin' personal finance skills in highschool I don't know.
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Aug 22, 2013 23:51
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Fuzzy Mammal posted:Do they still have that Career and Personal Planning course in grades 11 and 12? I remember you needed to have some work experience and I think it showed you how to balance a checkbook (lol). In my time ~ '99 no one took it seriously at all. That course pissed me off because before they implemented it there was a different course you had to take in your choice of grade 10 or 11. I took it in grade 10 to get it overwith then the very next year they introduced CAPP and I had to take that too!
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Aug 22, 2013 23:54
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Welp, the end is nigh.Idiot Realtor posted:30 Hanson St I suppose, to be fair, that the end is not quite nigh; no one has yet paid almost a quarter-million dollars for a bathroom-less shack on less than 300 square feet of land. And hey, check out how low the tax bill is! I pay like $4K in Edmonton, and we barely have transit!
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Aug 23, 2013 02:44
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I know tiny houses are a thing but all I can think of when I see the photos is... "Genuine Little Tikes appliances in great shape! EZ Bake needs replacement heating element." But you know, prices Can Only Go Up and It Is Different Here Because X. Very very nice find.
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Aug 23, 2013 03:16
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