Shadowrun Fifth Edition: Same great Cyberpunk, now with 20% more Neon!

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Shadowrun Fifth Edition: Same great Cyberpunk, now with 20% more Neon!

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Cabbit: Jul 19, 2001; _{Is that everything you have?}

ProfessorCirno posted:

Stop looking at just the loving math, good lord. I hate to use this argument but this is a roleplaying game. If you have Logic 1 your character is legitimately really loving stupid. If they have Charisma 1 they legitimately have massive socialization issues.

I'm not looking at the math, you're making assumptions as to what a basic level of ability is. Somebody of moderate intelligence with no training in academics does not have a 'good shot' at knowing academic subjects beyond very basic common knowledge-- any sort of even remotely challenging question, one that would require but a single hit, would stump them.

Similarly-- have you ever met anyone who did not grow up with computers their whole life, or has spent a significant chunk of their professional life using them? Because they're completely inept with them, very often.

Here's where you're falling down: the average person is not untrained in computers, academics-- a variety of things! It's very hard to justify a reason why a person would have zero points in Computers, or Etiquette, or Running, or a whole host of stuff you learn to do in the process of becoming a functional adult.

Edit: I'm not saying people should go around with 1s, of course, because the thing about Shadowrunners is that they aren't average. They're a cut above the rest by virtue of necessity.

Cabbit fucked around with this message at 05:13 on Aug 24, 2013

# ? Aug 24, 2013 05:10

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 23:29

DMW45: Oct 29, 2011; Come into my parlor~
Said the spider to the fly~

Cabbit posted:

A good question!

Also, all that ware costs in the neighborhood of 435,000 nuyen so good luck affording drones or, like, housing. It might not be the best idea to combine two money-oriented concepts.

On the plus side, even if I have to go into battle naked because I can't afford clothes I'll have the same amount of armor as Actioneer Business Clothes.

# ? Aug 24, 2013 05:11

ProfessorCirno: Feb 17, 2011; The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!

Nyaa posted:

I think you are confusing Incompetent with game mechanic where default cause a -2 to dice. Although both are kinda the same mechanically.

If you default on a Logic skill with 1 Logic, you roll zero dice. That means the Computer skill won't succeed, nor could any sort of academic or professional knowledge check.

# ? Aug 24, 2013 05:13

Cabbit: Jul 19, 2001; _{Is that everything you have?}

ProfessorCirno posted:

If you default on a Logic skill with 1 Logic, you roll zero dice. That means the Computer skill won't succeed, nor could any sort of academic or professional knowledge check.

Why should a person who is completely untrained in computers, and not particularly smart, succeed on a computer check? What sort of things are you picturing necessitates a one or two hit Computers check?

# ? Aug 24, 2013 05:14

ProfessorCirno: Feb 17, 2011; The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!

Cabbit posted:

I'm not looking at the math, you're making assumptions as to what a basic level of ability is. Somebody of moderate intelligence with no training in academics does not have a 'good shot' at knowing academic subjects beyond very basic common knowledge-- any sort of even remotely challenging question, one that would require but a single hit, would stump them.

Similarly-- have you ever met anyone who did not grow up with computers their whole life, or has spent a significant chunk of their professional life using them? Because they're completely inept with them, very often.

Here's where you're falling down: the average person is not untrained in computers, academics-- a variety of things! It's very hard to justify a reason why a person would have zero points in Computers, or Etiquette, or Running, or a whole host of stuff you learn to do in the process of becoming a functional adult.

Edit: I'm not saying people should go around with 1s, of course, because the thing about Shadowrunners is that they aren't average. They're a cut above the rest by virtue of necessity.

Please describe this person who has never used a computer in their life in Shadowrun.

My problem is that people are treating low stats as nothing more then free points, but they're not willing to admit to it. Again, the average is well established as being 3. Common idiot thugs have Logic 2. If you have logic 1 you are very literally amongst the dumbest people alive.

Edit:

Cabbit posted:

Why should a person who is completely untrained in computers, and not particularly smart, succeed on a computer check? What sort of things are you picturing necessitates a one or two hit Computers check?

Computer is the base skill for interacting with the Matrix in any way. It's not hacking - it's editing pictures and finding things online.

# ? Aug 24, 2013 05:15

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

ProfessorCirno posted:

THe problem is that logic skills also include "use a computer" and "anything involving academics."

So is your argument then that everything a character does needs to involve rolling a skill? Because then you go on to play the "it's a roleplaying not a rollplaying game" card which seems pretty odd when you're the guy insisting that someone literally can't hold a conversation because if you read the rules they say

Seriously, making someone roll "Use Computer" to Google a cat video is like making someone roll Athletics to not trip and fall every time they go to the bathroom. The context of "when do you make someone roll a skill" doesn't magically change because one person's attribute is FOO and another's is BAR. Yes, the person with Logic 1 will auto-fail Use Computer rolls. That only matters if you're cramming Use Computer checks in his face every 30 seconds, otherwise who cares?

quote:

And, well, the question still sits: are low attributes weaknesses? Or free points? Because they are either one or they are the other.

They're free points if the GM doesn't relentlessly hammer you with HA HA YOU HAVE 1 CHARISMA YOU FAIL TO HAVE A BASIC CONVERSATION constantly. There, are you happy now? I already answered this for you earlier but here it is again. I have literally made no checks based on anything my character isn't geared for in five months of play and yet I sunk 30 BP into attributes that have so far been used 0 times. So was that a good investment on my part when it literally hasn't impacted my character in any fashion or did I waste points I could have put in things that I've actually been using so far?

# ? Aug 24, 2013 05:18

Cabbit: Jul 19, 2001; _{Is that everything you have?}

ProfessorCirno posted:

Computer is the base skill for interacting with the Matrix in any way. It's not hacking - it's editing pictures and finding things online.

Have you seen a person who has invested literally zero effort in improving either their intellect or their computer skills try to edit an image?

A better question: by this definition you've given me, are you suggestion that every time you interact with the Matrix you need to make a one-hit skill check?

ProfessorCirno posted:

My problem is that people are treating low stats as nothing more then free points, but they're not willing to admit to it.

You're very caught up on making people say a specific thing. You know people don't work like Mr. Myxlplyx from Superman, yeah? Here, watch, I'll say it: low stats are a weakness. It makes you inept at something, because you have to rely on your enhanced, completely mundane human being.

Much in the same way if you dropped an office worker in a weightlifting competition, where his average human strength would be a massive weakness in the competition.

# ? Aug 24, 2013 05:21

ProfessorCirno: Feb 17, 2011; The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!

Kai Tave posted:

So is your argument then that everything a character does needs to involve rolling a skill? Because then you go on to play the "it's a roleplaying not a rollplaying game" card which seems pretty odd when you're the guy insisting that someone literally can't hold a conversation because if you read the rules they say

Seriously, making someone roll "Use Computer" to Google a cat video is like making someone roll Athletics to not trip and fall every time they go to the bathroom. The context of "when do you make someone roll a skill" doesn't magically change because one person's attribute is FOO and another's is BAR. Yes, the person with Logic 1 will auto-fail Use Computer rolls. That only matters if you're cramming Use Computer checks in his face every 30 seconds, otherwise who cares?

When the hell have I ever argued that? YOu've said this a few times. Stop shoving words in my mouth.

If your character tries to find something online then yes they would roll Computer. If your dude wanted to not be a blithering idiot, they would have to have higher then 1 Logic. I do not think saying "If your character has Logic 1 then they should act as if they have Logic 1" is a controversial statement!

quote:

They're free points if the GM doesn't relentlessly hammer you with HA HA YOU HAVE 1 CHARISMA YOU FAIL TO HAVE A BASIC CONVERSATION constantly.

Make an argument based on what I say or stop trying.

And yes actually, I am happy that someone has finally answered straight up "No they're free points." I disagree, but that's an actual discussion that can be had.

# ? Aug 24, 2013 05:23

Generic Octopus: Mar 27, 2010

ProfessorCirno posted:

And, well, the question still sits: are low attributes weaknesses? Or free points? Because they are either one or they are the other.

Well, yeah, they're weaknesses, but it doesn't make any practical difference if a character has a stat of 1 or 2-3. Sounds like you're suggesting that, since the math/mechanics doesn't really change much, the onus is on the GM/players to treat the character that takes 1 in a stat like a retarded goon so as to reflect the choice? Because roleplay?

If that's so, can't really say I see the reasoning.

# ? Aug 24, 2013 05:23

ProfessorCirno: Feb 17, 2011; The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!

Cabbit posted:

Have you seen a person who has invested literally zero effort in improving either their intellect or their computer skills try to edit an image?

A better question: by this definition you've given me, are you suggestion that every time you interact with the Matrix you need to make a one-hit skill check?

You're very caught up on making people say a specific thing. You know people don't work like Mr. Myxlplyx from Superman, yeah? Here, watch, I'll say it: low stats are a weakness. It makes you inept at something, because you have to rely on your enhanced, completely mundane human being.

Much in the same way if you dropped an office worker in a weightlifting competition, where his average human strength would be a massive weakness in the competition.

I don't know who Mr. Myxlplyx is.

And again, yes, thank you. Not sarcastically! I agree that low stats - especially VERY low stats - should be a weakness!

# ? Aug 24, 2013 05:25

DMW45: Oct 29, 2011; Come into my parlor~
Said the spider to the fly~

Okay, a little bit of revision and I came up with this.

code:

Cyberware/Bioware
Head:

Alpha Cyber Eyes 2        $  7,200  E: 0.24  C:   8
   Smartlink              $  4,000  -------  C: [ 3]
   Flare Compensation     $  1,000  -------  C: [ 1]
   Low-Light Vision       $  1,500  -------  C: [ 2]
   Vision Enhancement 2   $  8,000  -------  C: [ 2]
   Image Link                Free With Cybereyes

Alpha Control Rig 1       $ 51,600  E: 0.8

Alpha Cerebral Booster 1  $ 37,800  E: 0.16

Body:

Wired Reflexes 2          $149,000  E: 3

Alpha React Enhancers 1   $ 15,600  E: 0.24

Arms:

Alpha Cyberlimb Low Arm R $ 12,000  E: 0.36  C:  10
  Customization Str 3     $ 15,000  -------  -------
  Customization Agi 3     $ 15,000  -------  -------
  Enhancement Armor 2     $  6,000  -------  C: [ 2]
  Grapple Gun             $  5,000  -------  C: [ 4]
  Shock Hand              $  5,000  -------  C: [ 4]

Alpha Cyberlimb Low Arm L $ 12,000  E: 0.36  C:  10
  Customization Str 3     $ 15,000  -------  -------
  Customization Agi 3     $ 15,000  -------  -------
  Enhancement Armor 2     $  6,000  -------  C: [ 2]
  Enhancement Agility 3   $ 19,500  -------  C: [ 3]
  Cyber Holster           $  5,000  -------  C: [ 5] (He's left handed, because I like details like that)

Alpha Cyberlimb Low Leg   $ 12,000  E: 0.36  C:  12
  Customization Str 3     $ 15,000  -------  -------
  Customization Agi 3     $ 15,000  -------  -------
  Enhancement Armor 2     $  6,000  -------  C: [ 2]
  Hydraulic Jack 6        $ 12,500  -------  C: [ 6]

Alpha Cyberlimb Low Leg   $ 12,000  E: 0.36  C:  12
  Customization Str 3     $ 15,000  -------  -------
  Customization Agi 3     $ 15,000  -------  -------
  Enhancement Armor 2     $  6,000  -------  C: [ 2]
  Hydraulic Jack 6        $ 12,500  -------  C: [ 6]

Totals                    $527,200  E: 5.88

It's about 50,000 too expensive even before going into petty, inconsequential things like money to live on and clothes on my back or weapons. But it's also past midnight so I'm gonna go pass out and work on that part tomorrow.

# ? Aug 24, 2013 05:25

ProfessorCirno: Feb 17, 2011; The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!

Generic Octopus posted:

Well, yeah, they're weaknesses, but it doesn't make any practical difference if a character has a stat of 1 or 2-3. Sounds like you're suggesting that, since the math/mechanics doesn't really change much, the onus is on the GM/players to treat the character that takes 1 in a stat like a retarded goon so as to reflect the choice? Because roleplay?

If that's so, can't really say I see the reasoning.

I'm saying that you are a poo poo player if you don't play your dude with Literally The Lowest Intelligence You Can Possible Have as not being a completely moron.

Because if you consciously choose to have the lowest Logic possible, lower then even any other NPC, then you are stating "My character is a giant moron." And not playing that makes you a Bad Player.

# ? Aug 24, 2013 05:26

Gobbeldygook: May 13, 2009; Hates Native American people and tries to justify their genocides.

Put this racist on ignore immediately!

Number of sample characters: 16
Number with at least one point in Computer: 10
Number with at least one point in Etiquette: 11

I sometimes would call for Etiquette rolls to dress appropriately for an occasion, e.g. getting into a nightclub or a nice restaurant. A failure and the character is told their kind aren't welcome there. This may lead to them asking the Face for helping dressing themselves in the future which is comedy gold.

# ? Aug 24, 2013 05:31

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

ProfessorCirno posted:

When the hell have I ever argued that? YOu've said this a few times. Stop shoving words in my mouth.

You keep arguing in the context of "but you'll fail skill checks!" If you aren't constantly being forced to make skill checks in the areas you suck in, what does it matter if your stat is 1 or 100? Either everything your character could possibly do that relates to that area requires a skill roll to hammer home how much you suck or it doesn't and the person who doesn't plan on using a computer for more than reading Dangan Ronpa 7 updates doesn't need to care.

quote:

If your character tries to find something online then yes they would roll Computer. If your dude wanted to not be a blithering idiot, they would have to have higher then 1 Logic. I do not think saying "If your character has Logic 1 then they should act as if they have Logic 1" is a controversial statement!

The problem is people are disagreeing with you on what "act like they have this attribute at 1" means, especially when you've been hyperbolic all over the place. All this "you should have to act THIS WAY or you're a bad roleplayer" reminds me of the D&D Dark Sun podcast the Penny Arcade guys did where one of them, I think it was the artist, had a character with Wisdom 8 and decided that meant he was literally retarded and ate sand and stuff.

If characters aren't supposed to have a 1 in attributes because it makes them crippled and non-functional then maybe that shouldn't be an option for them to take. Like, comparisons to D&D break down because I'm pretty sure most editions of D&D don't let you start with attributes below a certain threshold.

quote:

Make an argument based on what I say or stop trying.

And yes actually, I am happy that someone has finally answered straight up "No they're free points." I disagree, but that's an actual discussion that can be had.

How 'bout you answer my questions now since I did you the courtesy? Were those points I spent on things I haven't used a sound investment or did I basically spend a "GM please don't pick on me, I swear I'm not a dirty minmaxer" tax?

# ? Aug 24, 2013 05:33

ProfessorCirno: Feb 17, 2011; The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!

Logic 1 isn't "8 Wisdom." It's 3. It is the lowest possible score.

I don't know how you keep missing this. The average is 3. 2. 2 is "low." 2 is "I'm rather below average." 2 is "I'm kinda thick." 2 is the lowest that any NPC has.

1 is "I am incapable of using this stat." 1 is "I literally cannot use Logic."

And I dunno if it's super minmaxy. You tell me. You said it yourself - not even you took 1 in any stat. Your Logic is 2, not 1 - why is that?

Everything on your character sheet says something about your character - not just the high points.

# ? Aug 24, 2013 05:38

al-azad: May 28, 2009

Kai Tave posted:

Seriously, making someone roll "Use Computer" to Google a cat video is like making someone roll Athletics to not trip and fall every time they go to the bathroom. The context of "when do you make someone roll a skill" doesn't magically change because one person's attribute is FOO and another's is BAR. Yes, the person with Logic 1 will auto-fail Use Computer rolls. That only matters if you're cramming Use Computer checks in his face every 30 seconds, otherwise who cares?

If the definition of computers involves "focusing on understanding multiple operating systems" then a person with zero computers and 1 logic is the equivalent of your grandmother who calls customer support because it's not plugged in.

Gobbeldygook posted:

Number of sample characters: 16
Number with at least one point in Computer: 10
Number with at least one point in Etiquette: 11

I sometimes would call for Etiquette rolls to dress appropriately for an occasion, e.g. getting into a nightclub or a nice restaurant. A failure and the character is told their kind aren't welcome there. This may lead to them asking the Face for helping dressing themselves in the future which is comedy gold.

This is the kind of stuff I'm trying to grasp with the game. I look at the default characters and I get the idea that these are people who can reasonably live in a dystopian future. But I look at a character with dumpstats and all I can think is how often they're taken advantage of. Even if you can only get 1 hit once in a while you're still doing better than someone who has trouble functioning by themselves. From a gameplay perspective it might not come up because your weaknesses are covered by NPCs, but what about when you're alone?

Looking through some of the current running games, one person gives bonus karma for a well rounded character. I might adopt that if I ever run a game. I've been playing the new Star Wars games and one sided characters are having zero fun at the table because of the way dice are handled.

al-azad fucked around with this message at 05:43 on Aug 24, 2013

# ? Aug 24, 2013 05:39

Mystic Mongol: Jan 5, 2007; Your life's been thrown in disarray already--I wouldn't want you to feel pressured.; College Slice

ProfessorCirno posted:

Logic 1 isn't "8 Wisdom." It's 3. It is the lowest possible score.

3 isn't possible in 4e. Now you're making up rules in completely different systems. Please stop!

# ? Aug 24, 2013 05:39

ProfessorCirno: Feb 17, 2011; The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!

Mystic Mongol posted:

3 isn't possible in 4e. Now you're making up rules in completely different systems. Please stop!

4e, known for being the only edition of D&D ever made.

# ? Aug 24, 2013 05:43

Mystic Mongol: Jan 5, 2007; Your life's been thrown in disarray already--I wouldn't want you to feel pressured.; College Slice

ProfessorCirno posted:

4e, known for being the only edition of D&D ever made.

It was certainly the one being discussed.

# ? Aug 24, 2013 05:46

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

ProfessorCirno posted:

Logic 1 isn't "8 Wisdom." It's 3. It is the lowest possible score.

But 8 is literally as low as you can go in 4E as a player character, it's not possible to go any lower. Taking an 8 in a score is dumping it to the bottom of what's possible. So by that logic, since 8 is the bottom of the barrel, that means that someone who plays their 8 Wis Fighter as a sand-chewing retard is being a good roleplayer.

quote:

I don't know how you keep missing this. The average is 3. 2. 2 is "low." 2 is "I'm rather below average." 2 is "I'm kinda thick." 2 is the lowest that any NPC has.

Then why do attributes of 1 even exist as a selectable option outside of things like Edge or Magic? You're mad that people want to take something the game doesn't explicitly tell them "no stop, don't do this" and then don't want to play their characters as mouth-breathing meat tubes. If 1 is supposed to be "do not enter" territory then maybe attributes should start at 2 by default instead of 1?

quote:

And I dunno if it's super minmaxy. You tell me. You said it yourself - not even you took 1 in any stat. Your Logic is 2, not 1 - why is that?

Unthinking reflex more than anything else, upon reflection. Nothing I've done in-game has presented my character as highly logical (I mean, this is the game where our great plan for a distraction was "let's start a fire in a mall," so the bar may not be incredibly high, but still) so frankly I probably could shuffle that point around and it would make precisely 0 difference to either how my character has played and/or been portrayed so far.

# ? Aug 24, 2013 05:48

ProfessorCirno: Feb 17, 2011; The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!

Mystic Mongol posted:

It was certainly the one being discussed.

How is this even an argument? The claim was that Logic 1 was equivalent to Wisdom 8. But it isn't. It' the equivalent to the lowest possible Wisdom a person can have: Wisdom 3.

Ok, D&D 4e doesn't let you go that low. Fantastic. In Shadowrun that would be the equivalent of having SR5 cap Logic at 2. Is that good or bad? I dunno! But SR5 doesn't cap Logic at 2. It caps it at the lowest score humanly possible while still being conscious: 1. Just as previous editions of D&D, depending on your chargen, let you have the lowest score humanly possible while still being conscious: 3.

# ? Aug 24, 2013 05:48

dirtycajun: Aug 27, 2004; SUCKING DICKS AND SQUEEZING TITTIES

With changes this was the best I could do with the concept. Made the limb just the lower limb and you lose the one in ortho skin for now. You now have your gel ammo, grenades, respirator, slightly better visual perception. I recommend taking explosives as a skill and rigging up some explosive drones eventually. Also of note you and everything slaved to your RCC has a firewall of 7. This means it is going to be quite the bitch to hack you.

Your roto-drone is running both ares alphas specifically because they come with mounted grenade launchers. Fill one with gel ammo so you can have the drone choose NOT to kill everything.

code:

Human Street Sam Rigger

Priorities:
Attributes	B
Resources	A
Magic		E
Skills		C
Metatype	D


Attributes:
Body		5
Reaction	7 (12)
Agility		1 (9 for your sweet pistol shooting)
Strength	1
Willpower	3
Logic		5
Intuition	5
Charisma	1
Essence		.115
Edge		5
Magic		0


Qualities:
Resources x10		10
Exceptional Attribute	14


Skills:
Gunnery				6
Perception (urban)		6 (10 on visuals)
Pilot Aircraft (remote)		6
Pistol (Heavy)			6
Pilot Groundcraft		1
Engineering Skill Group		2


Cyberware:
Wired Reflexes (2)		149,000		3
Alphaware Control Rig (1)	51,600		.8
Cyber lower arm x1		53,500		.45
	+3 armor, agility 9
Cerebral booster (2)		63,000		.4
Used Reaction Enhancers (3)	29,250		1.125
Alphaware Smartlink		4,800		.16

RCC:
Vulcan Liegelord RCC		66,000

IDs:
Fake SIn (4)			10,000
Liscences (4) x6?		4,800

Drones:
Roto-drone			10,000
	+2 weapon slots
Microskimmer x1			1,000	

Programs:
Manuever Rotodrone (6)		3,000
Targeting (Ares Alpha) (6)	3,000
Manuever Microskimmer (6) x1	3,000
Microskimmer Stealth (6)	3,000
Encryption			80
Signal Scrubber			80
Wrapper				250

Guns:
Ares Alpha x2			5,300
Super Warhawk			800 
	w/internal smart gun

Ammo:
Explosive x10			800
Gel x10				250
Flash bang grenade x2		200
HE grenade x2			200

Armor:
Armor Jacket			1,000
Helmet				2,600
	thermographic, vision enhance (4)

Survival:
Respirator (6)			300

Tools:
Aircraft fixing tools		250

Lifestyle:
Squatter x1 month		500


Starting Nuyen 460+(2d6x40)

Your goal is to sit in the back and be really good at not getting shot while you and your drones make life hell for everyone else. As the game stands I don't think I can make you much better at this concept out the gate. You will grow FAST as a character via nuyen, in fact that is what you should be trying to get all the time. You are an inhuman luck machine that can control the battlefield and provide covering fire while your party splits.

dirtycajun fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Aug 24, 2013

# ? Aug 24, 2013 05:49

ProfessorCirno: Feb 17, 2011; The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!

Kai Tave posted:

But 8 is literally as low as you can go in 4E as a player character, it's not possible to go any lower. Taking an 8 in a score is dumping it to the bottom of what's possible. So by that logic, since 8 is the bottom of the barrel, that means that someone who plays their 8 Wis Fighter as a sand-chewing retard is being a good roleplayer.

Again, just because D&D 4e prevents you from making your character a gibbering moron does not mean SR5 does the same. Look at your own logic: are there points below 8? If so, Wisdom 8 cannot be the lowest, can it?

quote:

Unthinking reflex more than anything else, upon reflection. Nothing I've done in-game has presented my character as highly logical (I mean, this is the game where our great plan for a distraction was "let's start a fire in a mall," so the bar may not be incredibly high, but still) so frankly I probably could shuffle that point around and it would make precisely 0 difference to either how my character has played and/or been portrayed so far.

See, I think you agree with me here. You aren't logical, but you aren't mentally challenged. So you went Logic 2: someone who's slightly below average in the think clearly department, but can still manage day to day life.

# ? Aug 24, 2013 05:50

Generic Octopus: Mar 27, 2010

This whole discussion is an argument over the right way to play pretend based on made up numbers. loving hilarious.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Aug 24, 2013 05:53

ProfessorCirno: Feb 17, 2011; The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!

al-azad posted:

If the definition of computers involves "focusing on understanding multiple operating systems" then a person with zero computers and 1 logic is the equivalent of your grandmother who calls customer support because it's not plugged in.

This is the kind of stuff I'm trying to grasp with the game. I look at the default characters and I get the idea that these are people who can reasonably live in a dystopian future. But I look at a character with dumpstats and all I can think is how often they're taken advantage of. Even if you can only get 1 hit once in a while you're still doing better than someone who has trouble functioning by themselves. From a gameplay perspective it might not come up because your weaknesses are covered by NPCs, but what about when you're alone?

Looking through some of the current running games, one person gives bonus karma for a well rounded character. I might adopt that if I ever run a game. I've been playing the new Star Wars games and one sided characters are having zero fun at the table because of the way dice are handled.

Yeah, this is how I see it.

The sample characters (even when they are poorly edited and were built on other renditions of the rules, because this is still Shadowrun and still has Catalyst Editing) and given NPCs illustrate how the world works. None of them have 1's. And the vast majority of them have one or two points in a wide array of skills. This illustrates how characters are meant to work.

The Super Specialized At All Costs character is popular because people ignore the "at all costs" part. But there absolutely should be a cost to it. Ignoring it or arguing it's bad GMing to not let you make math sheets with no character who couldn't even survive in the world is a cop out at best.

# ? Aug 24, 2013 05:54

dirtycajun: Aug 27, 2004; SUCKING DICKS AND SQUEEZING TITTIES

ProfessorCirno posted:

Yeah, this is how I see it.

The sample characters (even when they are poorly edited and were built on other renditions of the rules, because this is still Shadowrun and still has Catalyst Editing) and given NPCs illustrate how the world works. None of them have 1's. And the vast majority of them have one or two points in a wide array of skills. This illustrates how characters are meant to work.

The Super Specialized At All Costs character is popular because people ignore the "at all costs" part. But there absolutely should be a cost to it. Ignoring it or arguing it's bad GMing to not let you make math sheets with no character who couldn't even survive in the world is a cop out at best.

And yet those characters flat don't function (outside of that orc rigger who is pretty boss imho) in the missions game. Like they straight up get punished for showing up and playing because they aren't even good at the things they specialized in.

I don't know, the book says that you function just fine with ones in stats just not while under any sort of pressure (the dreaded die roll!) This argument is pretty silly but whatever. Feel free to punish players in your games how you see fit because gaming should be an exercise in futility.

# ? Aug 24, 2013 05:59

Cabbit: Jul 19, 2001; _{Is that everything you have?}

ProfessorCirno posted:

Yeah, this is how I see it.

The sample characters (even when they are poorly edited and were built on other renditions of the rules, because this is still Shadowrun and still has Catalyst Editing) and given NPCs illustrate how the world works. None of them have 1's. And the vast majority of them have one or two points in a wide array of skills. This illustrates how characters are meant to work.

The Super Specialized At All Costs character is popular because people ignore the "at all costs" part. But there absolutely should be a cost to it. Ignoring it or arguing it's bad GMing to not let you make math sheets with no character who couldn't even survive in the world is a cop out at best.

The cost is you're poo poo at something. Hopefully your team can pick up the slack. That doesn't mean you should throw poo poo at the person who took Logic 1 nonstop, any more than you should strap down the guy who took an allergy to shellfish and funnel shrimp scampi into his mouth every chance you get.

What's the difference between Logic 1 and Logic 2, 10 Karma? It's a weakness on par with a moderate pollen allergy. Treat it as such.

# ? Aug 24, 2013 06:01

DMW45: Oct 29, 2011; Come into my parlor~
Said the spider to the fly~

Oh, last question before I go because it was bugging me.

Is there any point whatsoever to the Proteus Poseiden RCC at all that I read on there? It has the exact same stats as the cheaper/lower availability Vulcan Liegelord...

That's... that's kinda stupid, I think.

# ? Aug 24, 2013 06:03

dirtycajun: Aug 27, 2004; SUCKING DICKS AND SQUEEZING TITTIES

BenRGamer posted:

Oh, last question before I go because it was bugging me.

Is there any point whatsoever to the Proteus Poseiden RCC at all that I read on there? It has the exact same stats as the cheaper/lower availability Vulcan Liegelord...

That's... that's kinda stupid, I think.

You are correct in your finding the trap option.

# ? Aug 24, 2013 06:05

ProfessorCirno: Feb 17, 2011; The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!

There's a difference between being poo poo at something and not over-specialization.

Again, I will link the character I posted previous.t

Here.

Now. No 1's. A 2 in Strength, but skill in swimming and running to help cover it - she won't be the strongman, certainly, but she'll manage in other cases. A point in the skills she'd roughly need to have in order to get by in her job.

Decently well rounded, while still being exceptionally good at shooting things and B&E.

You tell me - is this a bad character? She isn't over-specialized, certainly. She doesn't have the sheer amount of armor the Brick Wall Gun has. She could probably have more dice in shooting if she were an adept. But is this a bad character who's poo poo at everything?

Or could it be you're being overly hyperbolic? I mean, I know hyperbole. God knows I've used it plenty in this thread. But saying you MUST over-specialize or you'll be poo poo> Man, that's hyperbole that's too far even for me.

# ? Aug 24, 2013 06:05

al-azad: May 28, 2009

Kai Tave posted:

But 8 is literally as low as you can go in 4E as a player character, it's not possible to go any lower. Taking an 8 in a score is dumping it to the bottom of what's possible. So by that logic, since 8 is the bottom of the barrel, that means that someone who plays their 8 Wis Fighter as a sand-chewing retard is being a good roleplayer.

4e lets you roll ability scores and they specifically give modifiers for 1 to whatever. The recommended method is 16 to 10 but 18, 18, 16, 8, 6, 1 is within the +4/+8 recommendation.

# ? Aug 24, 2013 06:06

Conskill: May 7, 2007; I got an 'F' in Geometry.

al-azad posted:

This is the kind of stuff I'm trying to grasp with the game. I look at the default characters and I get the idea that these are people who can reasonably live in a dystopian future. But I look at a character with dumpstats and all I can think is how often they're taken advantage of. Even if you can only get 1 hit once in a while you're still doing better than someone who has trouble functioning by themselves. From a gameplay perspective it might not come up because your weaknesses are covered by NPCs, but what about when you're alone?

Looking through some of the current running games, one person gives bonus karma for a well rounded character. I might adopt that if I ever run a game. I've been playing the new Star Wars games and one sided characters are having zero fun at the table because of the way dice are handled.

Pulling up my old char sheet (I was The Mage in Gobbeldygook's campaign), my character's lowest stat is a 2, which my intention was that it was a legitimate weak spot for the character. He rolled 7 dice for social situations, but had no Computers. I recall that the lack of computer skills didn't come up using the Matrix recreationally, but did come up whenever he wanted to do something more advanced than Google (I eventually learned to just tell other people my hunches and let them do the digital legwork instead).

Though really, while dump stats are getting a lot of pathos in this thread, the biggest weaknesses (and I'm inclined to believe every character should have entertaining weaknesses) were part of his background. The one that requires no other long explanation is that The Mage couldn't speak or understand English. This hosed him over a few times -- linguasofts are nice, but you can't take them with you when you're projecting.

# ? Aug 24, 2013 06:07

Cabbit: Jul 19, 2001; _{Is that everything you have?}

dirtycajun posted:

You are correct in your finding the trap option.

It's probably not a trap so much as somebody forgot to flip the numbers around to 6/5.

ProfessorCirno posted:

There's a difference between being poo poo at something and not over-specialization.

Again, I will link the character I posted previous.t

Here.

Now. No 1's. A 2 in Strength, but skill in swimming and running to help cover it - she won't be the strongman, certainly, but she'll manage in other cases. A point in the skills she'd roughly need to have in order to get by in her job.

Decently well rounded, while still being exceptionally good at shooting things and B&E.

You tell me - is this a bad character? She isn't over-specialized, certainly. She doesn't have the sheer amount of armor the Brick Wall Gun has. She could probably have more dice in shooting if she were an adept. But is this a bad character who's poo poo at everything?

Or could it be you're being overly hyperbolic? I mean, I know hyperbole. God knows I've used it plenty in this thread. But saying you MUST over-specialize or you'll be poo poo> Man, that's hyperbole that's too far even for me.

Helps if you quote, it's hard to tell who you're directing this at. Maybe slow down and take a breath.

# ? Aug 24, 2013 06:08

ProfessorCirno: Feb 17, 2011; The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!

It's a general statement aimed at two or three people but brought out for the thread itself.

Don't be so vain, yo.

# ? Aug 24, 2013 06:09

Cabbit: Jul 19, 2001; _{Is that everything you have?}

Vain would be me assuming you were talking to me and responding to the question, rather than looking at your post and going "who the hell are they actually directing that at".

# ? Aug 24, 2013 06:13

ProfessorCirno: Feb 17, 2011; The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!

The rather broad statement was made: the well rounded NPC characters are "poo poo." So here's a character who is well rounded but not poo poo. Is this acceptable?

# ? Aug 24, 2013 06:13

Cabbit: Jul 19, 2001; _{Is that everything you have?}

You have a lot of skills at one rank with a sizable edge, presumably operating on the basis that you won't have to make those checks very often and can just blow a point of edge when you do. That always seemed pretty cheap and min/max-y to me, avoiding investing any significant amount into skills yet taking advantage of the system in such a way that you'll likely never fail when you do use 'em.

That's not well-rounded. A well rounded character can do a variety of different things at the drop of a hat, often, rather than burning a point of edge in an emergency to cheese the system. What you have is a very focused character with an escape hatch for when the GM tries to pick you up on having invested the absolute bare minimum in stuff like computers or perception.

E: She looks like an absolute blast to hit the club with, at least.

Cabbit fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Aug 24, 2013

# ? Aug 24, 2013 06:16

ProfessorCirno: Feb 17, 2011; The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!

Cabbit posted:

You have a lot of skills at one rank with a sizable edge, presumably operating on the basis that you won't have to make those checks very often and can just blow a point of edge when you do. That always seemed pretty cheap and min/max-y to me, avoiding investing any significant amount into skills yet taking advantage of the system in such a way that you'll likely never fail when you do use 'em.

That's not well-rounded. A well rounded character can do a variety of different things at the drop of a hat, often, rather than burning a point of edge in an emergency to cheese the system. What you have is a very focused character with an escape hatch for when the GM tries to pick you up on having invested the absolute bare minimum in stuff like computers or perception.

All my secondary skills have a dice pool of 4. 3 is the average needed to score one hit, 4 can be used to "buy" one hit in non-stressful situations. I don't really see how that's cheesy in the slightest. I honestly never even thought about using Edge - that was just the bonus for being a non-magical human.

I actually disagree that a well-rounded character does a variety of different things well. That's a jack of all trades or a Mr Lucky. I made a character who has her specialties (sniping, shotgunning, B&E) but is capable in other stuff she needs to do in her regular life. She can repair most of her gear save her car, use the Matrix decently enough for an amateur (or at least enough to do what she needs to do in her normal daily affairs), set explosives when needed, and her knowledge skills back up her day to day life. That sounds like a well rounded character to me. She's not as strong as most people, but other then that she is either average or above average and she can take care of herself when living alone.

# ? Aug 24, 2013 06:22

Mulva: Sep 13, 2011; It's about time for my once per decade ban for being a consistently terrible poster.

Cabbit posted:

That doesn't mean you should throw poo poo at the person who took Logic 1 nonstop

Hi, you are a retarded person. Well, not *you*. The character you. You are a retarded person. That is a disability you have to deal with basically all the time. And you can....but that doesn't mean it's gone away. It's something you have to put up with in every aspect of your day to day life because you are *massively* less intelligent than *everyone* around you. Even the stupid mooks that make up the ranks of the most brutal and simplistic go-gangs? They are smarter than you. Like, *clearly* smarter than you.

That's not just mild flavor. That's probably the single defining characteristic of your life. It's great to ignore things because it's a game, but you shouldn't get to ignore serious developmental issues.

quote:

What's the difference between Logic 1 and Logic 2, 10 Karma? It's a weakness on par with a moderate pollen allergy. Treat it as such.

Or one could say it's twice as bad as Incompetent and treat it as such.

# ? Aug 24, 2013 06:25

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 23:29

Cabbit: Jul 19, 2001; _{Is that everything you have?}

ProfessorCirno posted:

All my secondary skills have a dice pool of 4. 3 is the average needed to score one hit, 4 can be used to "buy" one hit in non-stressful situations. I don't really see how that's cheesy in the slightest. I honestly never even thought about using Edge - that was just the bonus for being a non-magical human.

I actually disagree that a well-rounded character does a variety of different things well. That's a jack of all trades or a Mr Lucky. I made a character who has her specialties (sniping, shotgunning, B&E) but is capable in other stuff she needs to do in her regular life. She can repair most of her gear save her car, use the Matrix decently enough for an amateur (or at least enough to do what she needs to do in her normal daily affairs), set explosives when needed, and her knowledge skills back up her day to day life. That sounds like a well rounded character to me. She's not as strong as most people, but other then that she is either average or above average and she can take care of herself when living alone.

Your definition of 'well-rounded', while an accurate one, isn't one that should be set against 'focused'. She's well-rounded in that she isn't just a bland statblock that has two skills "shoot" and "sneak"; she has the skills to actually be a character in a game. Her sheet make sense as an actual shadowrunner, and not an object lesson in character optimization.

But is she focused? She's got four rank 6 skills and all of them have to do with her niche of getting in and icing a dude, and literally every other individual skill is at rank one.

That is pretty focused!

# ? Aug 24, 2013 06:27

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