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Warchicken posted:The idea of someone saying solitary isn't so bad because you can scream through the walls to someone you can never see or contact just makes me so loving mad I can't even finish reading the thread. Solitary is torture and if you disagree you are a piece of poo poo. gently caress you. Man... you don't have to scream through the walls. You yell through the crack in your door to a person who is listening through a crack in their door about five feet from you. I agree that the concept of solitary, complete isolation in which you have no contact with any other human being for days on end is probably torture. What we've been discussing though is what that is. I've been offering my experience and perspective, and you say subhuman filth and I say California Correctional Peace Officer, please at least try to engage the conversation rather than rage crawl up your own rear end in a top hat.
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Aug 27, 2013 22:17
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Zeitgueist posted:Statistically, your experience would be highly unusual. It could be, man. Personally, I think that the California Department of Corrections is the most professional Correctional agency in the country, and the constant scrutiny we endure ensures that we continue to be so. And the good wages we're paid and the constant threat of administrative oversight and potential punishment ensures that no CO has any reason to physically abuse an inmate, no matter how good a reason he might think he has.
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Aug 27, 2013 22:21
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Cold and Ugly posted:Man... you don't have to scream through the walls. You yell through the crack in your door to a person who is listening through a crack in their door about five feet from you. I agree that the concept of solitary, complete isolation in which you have no contact with any other human being for days on end is probably torture. What we've been discussing though is what that is. I've been offering my experience and perspective, and you say subhuman filth and I say California Correctional Peace Officer, please at least try to engage the conversation rather than rage crawl up your own rear end in a top hat. You continue to be the only one here who seems to think that the idea of some sort of mythological solitary where everyone was in an IsoCube and fed by robots with no human contact whatsoever is germane to the discussion. People who are experts on torture and it's effects generally believe that the mental distress caused by the actual, real-world SHUs that California has in place right now are torture.
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Aug 27, 2013 22:22
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Cold and Ugly posted:It could be, man. Personally, I think that the California Department of Corrections is the most professional Correctional agency in the country, and the constant scrutiny we endure ensures that we continue to be so. "The most professional correctional agency in the country." quote:And the good wages we're paid and the constant threat of administrative oversight and potential punishment ensures that no CO has any reason to physically abuse an inmate, no matter how good a reason he might think he has. Man that contraband pretty much gets through the walls by osmosis. 
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Aug 27, 2013 22:26
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Zeitgueist posted:What's the "tone" of the thread? What happened to your avatar, dude? I'm having trouble recognizing you without it. Anyway, the tone that I perceived from the thread before I joined it was a bunch of folks quoting Wikipedia articles and despairing of the awful torture camps our state and local goverments operate in an environment largely devoid of what I consider real experience and/or knowledge of the day to day realities of prison life. If nothing else I hoped that this one humble man's experience could at least shed some light and give some hope to those California posters that their state employs at least a few human beings.
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Aug 27, 2013 22:27
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Cold and Ugly posted:What happened to your avatar, dude? I'm having trouble recognizing you without it. Anyway, the tone that I perceived from the thread before I joined it was a bunch of folks quoting Wikipedia articles and despairing of the awful torture camps our state and local goverments operate in an environment largely devoid of what I consider real experience and/or knowledge of the day to day realities of prison life. If nothing else I hoped that this one humble man's experience could at least shed some light and give some hope to those California posters that their state employs at least a few human beings. Then entire first page of the thread is written by a prison activist and links huge amounts of firsthand experience, quotes, stories from inmates, etc. And yes, that activist served time, and has family who who have been on the other side as CO's.
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Aug 27, 2013 22:30
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Zeitgueist posted:"The most professional correctional agency in the country." "These guards got convicted of setting up inmate attacks." It sounds like an example of the system working, man. Clearly you're going to have people who get lost in the small amount of personal power being a prison guard grants you. But I have to be honest and say that to me, a story involving a couple of assholes who abused their power being arrested and taken off the line reinforces my point that the system works to some extent.
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Aug 27, 2013 22:36
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Cold and Ugly posted:Man... you don't have to scream through the walls. You yell through the crack in your door to a person who is listening through a crack in their door about five feet from you. I agree that the concept of solitary, complete isolation in which you have no contact with any other human being for days on end is probably torture. What we've been discussing though is what that is. I've been offering my experience and perspective, and you say subhuman filth and I say California Correctional Peace Officer, please at least try to engage the conversation rather than rage crawl up your own rear end in a top hat. No what you do, what you participate in is torture. All the studies, all the research, they are not talking about Magneto's plastic prison you idiot. They are talking about SHUs exactly like yours.
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Aug 27, 2013 22:43
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Cold and Ugly posted:"These guards got convicted of setting up inmate attacks." It sounds like an example of the system working, man. Clearly you're going to have people who get lost in the small amount of personal power being a prison guard grants you. But I have to be honest and say that to me, a story involving a couple of assholes who abused their power being arrested and taken off the line reinforces my point that the system works to some extent. If you didn't want to read the first page of posts, just say so, OK? I'm not going to repost the many, many examples of CO corruption and abuse that we can find in just California alone, when they're already there. Of course, "it is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."
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Aug 27, 2013 22:43
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Zeitgueist posted:You continue to be the only one here who seems to think that the idea of some sort of mythological solitary where everyone was in an IsoCube and fed by robots with no human contact whatsoever is germane to the discussion. Okay, the point where I'm having trouble is that the stories i've read have said that the concept of solitary is physically and mentally and emotionally harmful, but they always seem to stop short of explicitly saying that those conditions exist in the California prison system. I'm sorry, i'm willing to acknowledge that lack of physical stimulation and contact with the outdoors probably fucks some dudes up but the use of the word "solitary" seems to me to conjure up ideas of conditions that just don't exist in the modern prison system.
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Aug 27, 2013 22:44
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Cold and Ugly posted:Okay, the point where I'm having trouble is that the stories i've read have said that the concept of solitary is physically and mentally and emotionally harmful, but they always seem to stop short of explicitly saying that those conditions exist in the California prison system. I'm sorry, i'm willing to acknowledge that lack of physical stimulation and contact with the outdoors probably fucks some dudes up but the use of the word "solitary" seems to me to conjure up ideas of conditions that just don't exist in the modern prison system. What the gently caress is wrong with you? Where on earth do you think they are talking about? Have you read all of the sources in the thread? Where they are talking about California? I can't believe I let myself get sucked into this. It happens over and over again. I just have to imagine an unwashed 500-pound man laying in the middle of the floor saying "ehhhh, bring me sources if you want me to believe you" and then he takes the meticulously researched sources and wipes his rear end with them. That's you. You're too stupid to learn and too incurious to care about being stupid.
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Aug 27, 2013 22:49
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Cold and Ugly posted:Okay, the point where I'm having trouble is that the stories i've read have said that the concept of solitary is physically and mentally and emotionally harmful, but they always seem to stop short of explicitly saying that those conditions exist in the California prison system. I'm sorry, i'm willing to acknowledge that lack of physical stimulation and contact with the outdoors probably fucks some dudes up but the use of the word "solitary" seems to me to conjure up ideas of conditions that just don't exist in the modern prison system. Those conditions never existed, and "solitary" is often a misnomer while "isolation" or the euphemistic "SHU" are more accurate. Even a mostly isolated lifestyle can be torturous over long periods of time, and if you haven't seen anyone connect conditions as they actually exist in California facilities such as Pelican Bay to the term "torture", you're not really trying. You can start with the Amnesty International study I linked earlier, as well as, you know, reading the thread.
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Aug 27, 2013 22:50
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SedanChair posted:No what you do, what you participate in is torture. All the studies, all the research, they are not talking about Magneto's plastic prison you idiot. They are talking about SHUs exactly like yours. Man, Sedanchair, if only I could make you see what I see. I don't work in a SHU, although as far as California goes where I work is the last step from it. And the men I deal with day in and day out certainly don't give the appearance of being victims of torture. But I understand that you aren't willing to give any credence to my experience. So... considering that I deal with the worst offenders imaginable. Murderers, rapists, gangbangers, etc., what do you think would be the most humane way to keep them away from gentle society?
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Aug 27, 2013 22:53
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Cold and Ugly posted:Man, Sedanchair, if only I could make you see what I see. I don't work in a SHU, although as far as California goes where I work is the last step from it. And the men I deal with day in and day out certainly don't give the appearance of being victims of torture. But I understand that you aren't willing to give any credence to my experience. So... considering that I deal with the worst offenders imaginable. Murderers, rapists, gangbangers, etc., what do you think would be the most humane way to keep them away from gentle society? Why should anybody give credence to someone why can't even be loving bothered to read about the untold experiences that have been posted in this thread by people who have actually been behind bars? This all, of course, is leaving aside the blatant idiocy of the idea that the guard is qualified to decide what the prisoner is actually experiencing.
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Aug 27, 2013 22:55
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SedanChair posted:What the gently caress is wrong with you? Where on earth do you think they are talking about? Have you read all of the sources in the thread? Where they are talking about California? Yes, dog. But amazingly, when I read them I had different thoughts than you did. And talking about my dad isn't going to change that. And if I was incurious I would have just posted a couple paragraph long manifesto like that CISNAZI WEED HITLER guy did and told you all to gently caress yourselves. It's called a conversation man.
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Aug 27, 2013 22:57
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Cold and Ugly posted:Yes, dog. But amazingly, when I read them I had different thoughts than you did. And talking about my dad isn't going to change that. And if I was incurious I would have just posted a couple paragraph long manifesto like that CISNAZI WEED HITLER guy did and told you all to gently caress yourselves. It's called a conversation man. You seem to have kind of dropped out of the conversation about why you're not willing to do anything to reform your union, though.
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Aug 27, 2013 22:58
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Cold and Ugly posted:Yes, dog. But amazingly, when I read them I had different thoughts than you did. And talking about my dad isn't going to change that. And if I was incurious I would have just posted a couple paragraph long manifesto like that CISNAZI WEED HITLER guy did and told you all to gently caress yourselves. It's called a conversation man. If you're going to look at the massive history of abuse, corruption, and mistreatment that California alone has, let alone the national corrections system, and say "system works, I don't see it being that big a problem", then it goes a bit beyond "I had different thoughts than you did" and more into "willfull blindness". How exactly do you think hits from (and on)shotcallers in SHU's happen? How do you think contraband gets inside?
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Aug 27, 2013 23:02
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Cerebral Bore posted:Why should anybody give credence to someone why can't even be loving bothered to read about the untold experiences that have been posted in this thread by people who have actually been behind bars? I have read them, man, and I was moved by them as much as anybody would be. But the fact remains that some people must be kept away from society at large, and your continued indignation regarding that suggests that you aren't really willing to have a serious conversation but would rather continue to pat yourselves on the back about how much everybody outside your field of view is being tortured and how great you are that you would never consider doing that. I'm inviting a guy to tell me how prison ought to be run and how we ought to deal with the most dangerous elements contained therein. If he wanted all he'd have to do is just point to the scandinavian system and declare game over.
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Aug 27, 2013 23:03
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Obdicut posted:You seem to have kind of dropped out of the conversation about why you're not willing to do anything to reform your union, though. Yeah, man. I admit that I ignored those posts because I really have no idea. I realize that the potential exists for me to make a positive impact on California's prison system but the ugly truth is that i'm too lazy and timid to be really forceful about my good ideas.
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Aug 27, 2013 23:05
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Zeitgueist posted:If you're going to look at the massive history of abuse, corruption, and mistreatment that California alone has, let alone the national corrections system, and say "system works, I don't see it being that big a problem", then it goes a bit beyond "I had different thoughts than you did" and more into "willfull blindness". Man, but I feel like i'm emphatically not saying that. Maybe i'm not expressing myself well enough, but what i've meant to say is that while I acknowledge that super bad poo poo happens, there are good people involved and good systems in place that act as mitigating factors.
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Aug 27, 2013 23:07
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I, for one, think that "people got arrested, looks like the system is working" is a fascinating argument, coming in the context of this thread, and from a corrections worker.
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Aug 27, 2013 23:08
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Cold and Ugly posted:Yeah, man. I admit that I ignored those posts because I really have no idea. I realize that the potential exists for me to make a positive impact on California's prison system but the ugly truth is that i'm too lazy and timid to be really forceful about my good ideas. Okay, well, that's going to be the reason people hold you in contempt, then, for being satisfied with benefiting from a system that is unjust and unfair. Nobody is going to care about the 'mitigating' factors when you happily enjoy the higher paycheck the union gets you while doing nothing, nothing at all to try to improve things. Nobody thinks that there aren't good people involved, or good systems. But the overall system, and most importantly the sentencing laws lobbied for by your union, is incredibly hosed up, so that mitigation really doesn't matter.
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Aug 27, 2013 23:10
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Zeitgueist posted:I'd imagine there's an answer to this that doesn't involve "mental torture of already mentally ill people". How are they being mentally tortured again? Mental health inmates only get put into segregation if they are shown to be an active threat to themselves and others, and if they stayed in a "state of crisis" for more than a few days we had to ship them out to a specialized prison. Sense the level of the prisons funding is based on maintaining mental health offenders, they aren't going to want to ship them out for shits and giggles. When they are in crisis intervention they get daily checks by a licensed Mental Health Counselor (which requires as minimum a masters in counseling) who reported directly to a licensed psychologist and psychiatrist. I mean gently caress I saw one guy with mental retardation beat the poo poo out of my supervisor so bad that he had a minor skull fracture, and he got out of crisis intervention in 3 days and back into his living unit. (where he is allowed to associate with other inmates and watch TV, and play games, and participate in social and other activities) Main Paineframe posted:If the warden ignored it, that doesn't mean it wasn't abuse - it means that he was complicit in the abuse. At best, he was looking the other way and ignoring clear abuses. At worst, he was encouraging it. Agencies that make sure to get rid of the video cameras and any credible witnesses before a use of force aren't known for complying with use-of-force policies, especially when they already know they can openly break rules right in front of bosses and supervisors without any consequences. Legally speaking having a knife inside a prison IS NOT a abuse if the warden okays it. If they used it on anybody sure. But I never saw that and never heard of that happening. Only time I ever saw them use the things was when ripping open beds to check for drugs inside mattresses. And my greater point was what exactly am I supposed to do about it if the higher ups don't give a poo poo? If somebody got stabbed and the 3rd party agency which investigates inmate deaths (ALL deaths had to be 3rd party investigated) asked me about it I'd tell em that CERT had it, but otherwise what was I supposed to do? (Let me guess be an internet superhero and quit the job right then and there and go work at starbucks and move back in with the parents instead of keeping the job with health insurance until I could find something better) You seem to be trying to arguing with me like I'm fundamentally disagreeing with any of you. I'm really not. Prisons are poo poo holes. Just WORKING inside of one was horrifically mentally damaging. I still get incredibly uncomfortable when people are behind me and feel the need to constantly look around. What I am trying to do is give you more information to form a viewpoint. I am trying to convey that prison is not like what you might think and that what happens in one state might be entirely different in another state. I can assure you that a stint in a Rhode Island prison is going to be a vastly different experience than spending time in a Texas prison. But all of you fall into this instinct of going at "the screw". I DO think solitary is torture. However I am not really sure what method is really left if you already have someone in a prison and they are out of control. Pretty much nothing you guys have mentioned is news, there are official policies in place to address pretty much every abuse named in this thread. (other than I guess the knife thing) Extended stays in solitary are a flat out "you will not ever stick someone in solitary for more than 90 days" unless they are classified supermax, and the only way that I know of to get that is to be actively stabbing inmates and COs. And Supermax is it's own facility, where the inmates get there own TVs in there cells and regular book drops. The only "solutions" I hear in this thread are "massive changes in the entire political, moral, spiritual, and ethical system that most of America uses towards criminals" uses. I absolutely agree that is necessary. Good luck on waiting for that to happen. anglachel fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Aug 27, 2013 |
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Aug 27, 2013 23:20
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anglachel posted:How are they being mentally tortured again? Mental health inmates only get put into segregation if they are shown to be an active threat to themselves and others, and if they stayed in a "state of crisis" for more than a few days we had to ship them out to a specialized prison. Sense the level of the prisons funding is based on maintaining mental health offenders, they aren't going to want to ship them out for shits and giggles. When they are in crisis intervention they get daily checks by a licensed Mental Health Counselor (which requires as minimum a masters in counseling) who reported directly to a licensed psychologist and psychiatrist. I mean gently caress I saw one guy with mental retarded beat the poo poo out of my supervisor so bad that he had a minor skull fracture, and he got out of crisis intervention in 3 days and back into his living unit. (where he is allowed to associate with other inmates and watch TV, and play games, and participate in social and other activities) I was talking about extended time in SHU's. For that matter, i'd imagine quite a few people not classified as "mental health inmates" probably have diagnosed mental issues that can be exacerbated by extended stays in isolation.
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Aug 27, 2013 23:22
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Obdicut posted:Okay, well, that's going to be the reason people hold you in contempt, then, for being satisfied with benefiting from a system that is unjust and unfair. Nobody is going to care about the 'mitigating' factors when you happily enjoy the higher paycheck the union gets you while doing nothing, nothing at all to try to improve things. Man, people here held me in contempt long before I admitted that I was just a guy earning a paycheck. You could practically hear the exhalation of relief after I admitted to being a CO and they realized they possessed the moral high ground. I'm not ashamed to not be a hero. I'm just a man doing a necessary job.
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Aug 27, 2013 23:22
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Cold and Ugly posted:Man, people here held me in contempt long before I admitted that I was just a guy earning a paycheck. You could practically hear the exhalation of relief after I admitted to being a CO and they realized they possessed the moral high ground. I'm not ashamed to not be a hero. I'm just a man doing a necessary job. I think the exhalation might have been from realizing you weren't a troll, but someone with a vested interest in being obtuse on the subject.
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Aug 27, 2013 23:23
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Cold and Ugly posted:Man, people here held me in contempt long before I admitted that I was just a guy earning a paycheck. You could practically hear the exhalation of relief after I admitted to being a CO and they realized they possessed the moral high ground. I'm not ashamed to not be a hero. I'm just a man doing a necessary job. Again, it's not that you do the job that engenders the contempt, it's that you, as you described yourself, are simply too lazy to lift a finger to try to improve a horribly deficient system, even though, as a union member, it's an ethical obligation to do so. You seem to have a lot of personal issues about being a CO, which makes sense, but this isn't an E/N thread about how terrible it is people have contempt for COs who acknowledge that their union pushes for lovely, lovely policy but won't do anything at all to stop it.
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Aug 27, 2013 23:25
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Zeitgueist posted:I was talking about extended time in SHU's. Oh absolutely. Even 90 days can cause lots of mental health problems in a normal person. An extended period of time can absolutely drive a person insane. I've never heard of "isolating gang leaders with seg" thing before. The way we deal with gang leaders was to ship them to a different prison in the state. It wasn't hard to send say a Bloods gang leader to a prison with a low Bloods population. Gang leaders figured out pretty quick that if they didnt control the worst excesses of their people they were gonna get their asses shipped to a prison where they would be in a far more vulnerable situation.
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Aug 27, 2013 23:27
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Zeitgueist posted:I think the exhalation might have been from realizing you weren't a troll, but someone with a vested interest in being obtuse on the subject. I don't know about obtuse, man. Circumspect, maybe? When I came into the thread I was motivated by a desire to tone down the rhetoric and remind you all that correctional agencies are staffed with human beings, most of whom do not draw sexual pleasure from victimizing other human beings.
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Aug 27, 2013 23:28
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Cold and Ugly posted:I don't know about obtuse, man. Circumspect, maybe? When I came into the thread I was motivated by a desire to tone down the rhetoric and remind you all that correctional agencies are staffed with human beings, most of whom do not draw sexual pleasure from victimizing other human beings. This is a strawman, though, because nobody was making the argument that CO's were all or mostly literal sadists. However they were talking about how CO's have a huge problem with mistreatement, abuse, assault and corruption. As I pointed out earlier, tone arguments specifically avoid substance. Lets try to keep this in substance instead of tone. edit: grammar Zeitgueist fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Aug 27, 2013 |
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Aug 27, 2013 23:32
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Cold and Ugly posted:I don't know about obtuse, man. Circumspect, maybe? When I came into the thread I was motivated by a desire to tone down the rhetoric and remind you all that correctional agencies are staffed with human beings, most of whom do not draw sexual pleasure from victimizing other human beings. Some do? Did you report them?
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Aug 27, 2013 23:35
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Obdicut posted:Again, it's not that you do the job that engenders the contempt, it's that you, as you described yourself, are simply too lazy to lift a finger to try to improve a horribly deficient system, even though, as a union member, it's an ethical obligation to do so. Man, don't be silly. The fact that I do the job engenders contempt. When I did my big reveal earlier this morning I hit post and in about ten seconds there were three posts calling me a scumbag and saying "oh, you're a screw, THAT MAKES SENSE." And if it means anything, i'm not too lazy to try and make a difference in my personal sphere. Like one time I yelled at my buddy for calling an inmate a human being. And in general my co-workers know that I don't tolerate bullshit in my unit. What I mean to say is that I do what I can to minimize harm in the small area that I control, but I am not willing to try to kick it up a notch as far as the union goes, because honestly I don't want to get into that.
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Aug 27, 2013 23:35
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SedanChair posted:Some do? Did you report them? I saw an unnecessary use of force once and I did report it.
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Aug 27, 2013 23:38
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Cold and Ugly posted:Man, don't be silly. The fact that I do the job engenders contempt. When I did my big reveal earlier this morning I hit post and in about ten seconds there were three posts calling me a scumbag and saying "oh, you're a screw, THAT MAKES SENSE." Of course it made sense, you were minimizing to beat the band. I couldn't for the life of me figure out why you were acting like prisons were OK, and then surprise! You work in one. Now of course, it's coming out that you know there are a ton of things wrong with the system, huge conflicts of interest that you can't be bothered to address because you're a coward. It doesn't matter how much "bullshit" you call out on the job because you're a lamb when it comes to the poo poo that matters, the poo poo that keeps the system growing. Almost any other combination of personal traits than the ones you've shown would be less worthy of contempt. If you enjoyed being part of a system that punishes offenders unjustly, that would at least be consistent. Or, if you pushed harder for systemic change, we'd quibble but at least we could be allies in a sense. As it is, you know what the issues are but are too much of a punk to address them. You deserve more contempt than the average CO.
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Aug 27, 2013 23:44
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SedanChair posted:Of course it made sense, you were minimizing to beat the band. I couldn't for the life of me figure out why you were acting like prisons were OK, and then surprise! You work in one. Now of course, it's coming out that you know there are a ton of things wrong with the system, huge conflicts of interest that you can't be bothered to address because you're a coward. It doesn't matter how much "bullshit" you call out on the job because you're a lamb when it comes to the poo poo that matters, the poo poo that keeps the system growing. Could be. Could very much be. I find it strange that you seem to feel like you'd respect me more if I was some kind of meat head that enjoyed beating down inmates, and that you seem honestly disappointed that i'm unwilling to fight a losing battle against the union and administration and the governor's office on principle. Why isn't the fact that there's an honest, thoughtful and non sadistic man somewhere in the system enough for you?
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Aug 27, 2013 23:59
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For what it's worth, I don't really expect people to essentially guarantee their firing by trying to take down a corrupt system from the inside. In a capitalist society, pretty much everyone's job involves some human exploitation at some level of the business, but working as a CO is far too directly involved in human suffering for me.
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Aug 28, 2013 00:03
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Zeitgueist posted:For what it's worth, I don't really expect people to essentially guarantee their firing by trying to take down a corrupt system from the inside. In a capitalist society, pretty much everyone's job involves some human exploitation at some level of the business, but working as a CO is far too directly involved in human suffering for me. It's a necessary evil, man. A necessary evil. That's what I say to myself every day.
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Aug 28, 2013 00:08
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Cold and Ugly posted:It's a necessary evil, man. A necessary evil. That's what I say to myself every day. Whatever gets you by, but the current prison-industrial complex, especially that which exists in California, isn't any kind of necessary evil.
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Aug 28, 2013 00:11
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Zeitgueist posted:Whatever gets you by, but the current prison-industrial complex, especially that which exists in California, isn't any kind of necessary evil. 'eh, it's a necessary, though imperfect, evil. It's an evil that definitely has some room for improvement.
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Aug 28, 2013 00:15
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Cold and Ugly posted:It's a necessary evil, man. A necessary evil. That's what I say to myself every day. You still haven't read the thread, have you? After all this, you STILL have not read the thread.
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Aug 28, 2013 00:16
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