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Lowly posted:I had sort of mixed feelings about it ... it was a really quick read, so I didn't hate it and I read most of it while I was with family who were watching the Super Bowl, so given the alternative I guess it seemed better. My takeaway is really that it's meant to be a nostalgia trip for people who were kids in the '80s, and IMO it works pretty well at that. Just look at it like a video game in book form, rather than a novel. Then again I have a weakness for SF novels set in cyberspace/VR, and unfortunately good ones are hard to come by post-Gibson. Otherland was decent enough, but too drawn out and had a weak ending. Stephenson's are probably as close as it gets.
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Aug 29, 2013 22:32
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Bizob posted:I think there is a pretty fair case to be made that the explicit sex scenes are, in part, meant to make the reader uncomfortable which is itself a commentary/observation on graphic explicit violence being more palatable to his core demographics. I think this is especially true in his fantasy series. You're giving a lot of credit to a writer who has aped a subgenre mined by much better writers 20 years before him.
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Aug 30, 2013 00:13
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Shitshow posted:You're giving a lot of credit to a writer who has aped a subgenre mined by much better writers 20 years before him. As long as the books are entertaining I don't see a problem with writing something in a certain style.
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Aug 30, 2013 11:08
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The Land Fit for Heroes books are his best poo poo anyway, who cares. The mythos building in those is really cool, although (LAND FIT FOR HEROES SPOILERS) Dakovash is totally Tak Kovacs and Kellgris is totally Quellcrist.
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Aug 30, 2013 11:12
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Shitshow posted:You're giving a lot of credit to a writer who has aped a subgenre mined by much better writers 20 years before him. I'm not going to say the depiction of sex (in the way maybe Clive Cussler depicts the use of women) 'ruined' the book for me, because i thought it just didn't come up to par with other writers in the genre. But it really was unnecessary, and i definitely would not continue on to read his other stuff, which was a disappointment for me because I’m slowly but surely running out of authors I haven't read in the genre. Ahh Yes fucked around with this message at 12:25 on Aug 30, 2013 |
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Aug 30, 2013 12:12
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Vinterstum posted:Then again I have a weakness for SF novels set in cyberspace/VR, and unfortunately good ones are hard to come by post-Gibson. Otherland was decent enough, but too drawn out and had a weak ending. Stephenson's are probably as close as it gets. Actually that reminds me, I really liked Otherland (I had the same complaints though, one book too long and the ending was weak). Is Tad Williams' fantasy stuff on par or better?
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Aug 30, 2013 15:11
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I really enjoyed his Memory, Sorrow and Thorn series when I was a kid. I'm not sure how well it's aged but it was my introduction to the sprawling fantasy epic/coming of age fantasy subgenre. I enjoyed it more than Otherland because it's less... bizarre? I also remember enjoying War of the Fairies but I don't actually recall the plot. I don't think it's as good as M,S&T
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Aug 30, 2013 15:45
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Decius posted:As long as the books are entertaining I don't see a problem with writing something in a certain style. You like them, good on you. Don't care. I'm rejecting the idea that a B-grade writer is using lovely sex scenes as some sort of social commentary and putting forward that they're simply lovely sex scenes.
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Aug 30, 2013 16:40
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The sex scenes in Altered Carbon are certainly silly, but aren't they all consensual sex between adults? By genre standards they're doing okay! Morgan did an interview and someone asked him about his sex scenes. He said "the sex I write is the sex I've had." Well man, if you say so 
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Aug 30, 2013 17:05
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Shitshow posted:I'm rejecting the idea that a B-grade writer is using lovely sex scenes as some sort of social commentary and putting forward that they're simply lovely sex scenes.
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Aug 30, 2013 18:09
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I don't know, I was raised without religion and even I think the scene where he fingers the gay alien/elf's rear end while giving him a blowjob right after the the alien/elf knocked him out during a fight and then kidnapped him was absurd. O he also described the smell of poo poo coming out of the alien/elf's rear end when fingering him. Don't get me wrong I love both the series he has written so far but even I have to admit his sex scenes are absurd.
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Aug 30, 2013 20:01
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coyo7e posted:I'm putting forward the idea that the majority of people who complain so vocally about this are American and raised christian or were heavily influenced by christian values on sexuality, so they get uncomfortable, regardless. Yeah, as a Finn my reactions to sex scenes have been "aha, a sex scene" and "huh, a weird sex scene" at most, and I've read a lot of science fiction and fantasy. Which brings me to Perdido Street Station (it had the protagonist loving a bug-headed woman after all) which I finally finished. The book was really good. It's not every day you find an author whose style you instantly like and really evokes your imagination. Perdido was the first book I've read by China Mieville and I'm eagerly waiting for the next. I'm taking a little break before that though, since I ploughed through Perdido at a much higher speed than I usually read. The book was pretty exhaustive, I think reading it came even to my dreams. I liked how for the first 300 pages or so the reader couldn't even know what the story would be about. I think that's about when the caterpillars were introduced and the first slake-moth escaped. I dislike it when books are about "thing A" - how it is introduced, what's it about and how it's resolved. Perdido was about thing A at first (Yagharek and how to make him fly) only to turn to be about an entirely different thing about 300 pages in, thing B being the slake-moths. It makes the whole thing more believable: real life isn't about neatly organized topics either but things lead to other things. I liked the weirdness of the book, the setting and the world. Different races were definitely original and not some slender elves and dwarves with Scottish accent. At the same time they were presented in a believable manner, which was a solid strength of the book and Mieville's writing. My favorite character was the Weaver. I like it when such a powerful, dangerous and unpredictable force happens to ally surprisingly with the protagonists. The book also disturbed me more than fantasy usually does. The slake-moths and their effects were presented in a manner that made them appear especially dangerous and nasty. This is one of the reasons I'm not eager to dive into another Mieville book right now. I have no reason to expect he writes only "terrible monsters nobody can protect themselves against destroy people completely" kind of horror stories, but this was a pretty strong first impression. I do expect however that the world is described as just as vile and hopeless in his other books as it is in Perdido. The descriptions of filth, pollution and poverty were powerful, and the way the militia terrorized the population and broke the strike depressive to read. This kind of stuff is too strong for me to take in in too large doses too soon. Anyway, an excellent book. One of the best I've read this year or, really, read.
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Aug 30, 2013 20:05
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I read Altered Carbon and I didn't like the sex scenes (like most of the book) but it felt hilariously self-indulgent to me. It felt like the author writing fanfiction about himself.
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Aug 30, 2013 20:17
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coyo7e posted:I'm putting forward the idea that the majority of people who complain so vocally about this are American and raised christian or were heavily influenced by christian values on sexuality, so they get uncomfortable, regardless. lovely writing makes me uncomfortable, not sex. If I want to watch or read porn, I watch or read porn. If I want to watch or read scifi, I am supposed to wade through a bunch of lovely sex scenes that don't advance the narrative, characters, or setting?
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Aug 30, 2013 21:09
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I think people get upset by sex pretty easily for some reason. Look at the Stations of the Tide thread, most of it's talking about the sex and those are integral scenes. On the other hand at least that thread had some actual discussion of the sex rather than people just saying "its poo poo" "no u". Rurik posted:I liked the weirdness of the book, the setting and the world. I liked this but felt it overpowered the book's other qualities; almost as if the plot was wasted on the setting. I enjoyed it a lot but I also found it mildly disapppointing.
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Aug 30, 2013 21:10
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Shitshow posted:lovely writing makes me uncomfortable, not sex. If I want to watch or read porn, I watch or read porn. If I want to watch or read scifi, I am supposed to wade through a bunch of lovely sex scenes that don't advance the narrative, characters, or setting? No one is making you read anything, but I think you've made to point pretty clear that his writing doesn't appeal to you. Tastes vary, etc etc.
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Aug 31, 2013 00:07
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coyo7e posted:I'm putting forward the idea that the majority of people who complain so vocally about this are American and raised christian or were heavily influenced by christian values on sexuality, so they get uncomfortable, regardless. I always just attributed it to being the internet and people like acting like somethings are way worse than they really are. Joe Abercrombie's sex scenes are hilarious and fit the tone of his books perfectly.
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Aug 31, 2013 00:27
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savinhill posted:I always just attributed it to being the internet and people like acting like somethings are way worse than they really are.
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Aug 31, 2013 00:34
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I don't feel any more bothered by a lovely self-indulgent sex scene that doesn't advance the book more than any other lovely self-indulgent scene that doesn't advance the book, but it's usually more obvious when a sex scene is lovely, self-indulgent, and doesn't advance the book than it is for other sorts of scenes.
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Aug 31, 2013 00:35
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Books I thought benefited from sex scenes: Old Man's War, China Mountain Zhang. China Mountain Zhang kinda benefited from everything though. Cool book, but not one of my favorites. muike fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Aug 31, 2013 |
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Aug 31, 2013 00:36
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neongrey posted:I don't feel any more bothered by a lovely self-indulgent sex scene that doesn't advance the book more than any other lovely self-indulgent scene that doesn't advance the book, but it's usually more obvious when a sex scene is lovely, self-indulgent, and doesn't advance the book than it is for other sorts of scenes. It bothers me when all the shiity, self-indulgent sex scene does is make you realize, more and more with each one, how loving creepy the author is--like Piers Anthony. It bothers me less when the lovely, self-indulgent sex scene is merely lovely and self-indulgent I suppose--like William Gibson's. Agree that Old Man's War had a decent, purposeful sex scene that advanced the character. Those in sci-fi are like gold though, because more often they're just pathetic nerd fantasies.
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Aug 31, 2013 02:20
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savinhill posted:I always just attributed it to being the internet and people like acting like somethings are way worse than they really are. Abercrombie's sex scenes don't feel over the top and actually affect characters and their relationships. His books generally have this kind of dark humour to them which is great. I actually found the First Law trilogy hard to take seriously because it felt like the whole thing was written with a smirk.
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Aug 31, 2013 08:55
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I googled China Mountain Zhang and got a bunch of books by Maureen F. McHugh, its author. Can anyone tell me more about her? She has a bunch of short story collections that seem cool, as well as a cheap novel at $4 right now (Nekropolis).
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Aug 31, 2013 09:57
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I'm trying to get through the Foundation Series. I got through Prelude easily enough, I found all the different sections of Trantor rather interesting. Now I'm on Forward to Foundation, about 20% through, and I am struggling. It's gotten so boring, I don't care about JoJO, or Twisting, or the emperor anymore. It's taken me almost as long to get through that 20% as it did for me to read all of Prelude. Does it get better? At least a bit more engaging, or should I just skip to the next one? Or maybe drop it altogether, if it's just going to be more smart people being smart?
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Aug 31, 2013 16:24
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Leper Residue posted:I'm trying to get through the Foundation Series. I got through Prelude easily enough, I found all the different sections of Trantor rather interesting. Now I'm on Forward to Foundation, about 20% through, and I am struggling. It's gotten so boring, I don't care about JoJO, or Twisting, or the emperor anymore. It's taken me almost as long to get through that 20% as it did for me to read all of Prelude. Your problem is that you're reading the books in story order, not publication order. The prequels were written much later, when Asimov's HIV had begun to take its toll. Read Foundation, Foundation and Empire, and Second Foundation.
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Aug 31, 2013 17:00
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Wachepti posted:I really enjoyed his Memory, Sorrow and Thorn series when I was a kid. I'm not sure how well it's aged but it was my introduction to the sprawling fantasy epic/coming of age fantasy subgenre. I enjoyed it more than Otherland because it's less... bizarre? I also remember enjoying War of the Fairies but I don't actually recall the plot. I don't think it's as good as M,S&T I actually read M,S&T for the first time pretty recently and definitely enjoyed it. Fairly traditional fantasy plot, but well written. I didn't like Shadowmarch at all though, I think I stopped reading it after book two.
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Aug 31, 2013 18:37
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Jedit posted:Your problem is that you're reading the books in story order, not publication order. The prequels were written much later, when Asimov's HIV had begun to take its toll. Read Foundation, Foundation and Empire, and Second Foundation. Cool, I'm just going to skip ahead to Foundation then. I've always felt guilty about missing out on some classic sci-fi, but if Forward isn't a proper part of it, then good riddance.
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Aug 31, 2013 18:45
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There's two Foundation reading lists. 1. Foundation, Foundation and Empire, and Second Foundation. or, 2. Foundation.
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Aug 31, 2013 19:36
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Schneider Heim posted:I googled China Mountain Zhang and got a bunch of books by Maureen F. McHugh, its author. Can anyone tell me more about her? She has a bunch of short story collections that seem cool, as well as a cheap novel at $4 right now (Nekropolis). I've only read China Mountain Zhang but if you're at all interested in good sf I recommend it to you wholeheartedly. It's about a gay man in a Chinese-dominated United States who has no idea what to do with his life, rejects marriage offers, bums around a bit, and becomes an architect. There's a subplot about colonists on Mars, which I think is unconnected in terms of plot to the rest of the novel. It's very much a bildungsroman novel-of-character, very little action, and it's fascinating and gripping and well written. It reminds me of Delany rather a lot (the kites might be a tribute to Babel-17.) There's a review here: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2008/10/zhang which I agree with totally. Note the bit where it's a debut that won the Lambda and Tiptree awards and was nominated for the Hugo and Nebula. The only caveat I have is that Zhang's narration is rather stilted and it looks stereotypical at first, but that's just how he is. Oh, and the idea that being gay would be such a taboo in a world like that seemed a bit odd and early 90s.
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Aug 31, 2013 19:57
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AreYouStillThere posted:Oh, well poo poo. I picked up Mortal Engines from the library assuming it would be the best place to start. Is it that big a deal? Should I send it back and get Fever Crumb? Actually, the publication order starts with Mortal Engines and the 3 Fever Crumb books are prequels. So of course, my first reading was Mortal Engines and the 3 following and Fever Crumb I read later. But when I did my marathon read of all 7, I started with Fever Crumb and I felt it added a lot of explanation to the Mortal Engines world - even though it's set 1000 years earlier. So, either way is OK but if you can start at Fever Crumb, I think you'll add value but it isn't imperative. specklebang fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Aug 31, 2013 |
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Aug 31, 2013 23:10
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Hedrigall posted:Relax, Mortal Engines is the first book and is great. Fever Crumb is a recent prequel. Don't ever, ever listen to people who tell you to read a book series in internal chronological order. What would you recommend to people to watch first: A New Hope or The Phantom Menace? I would hope that instead of taking your advice which is to "never ever, ever listen to tell you to read a book series in chronological order", a completely pointless comment that contributed nothing and uses completely unrelated examples, and instead read some books in chronological order if they are already published and available that way. This is particularly true of The Traction Cities since understanding the history of the mobile cities, the aircraft development and this history of Shrike (or Grike) makes for a great enhancement of the overall reading experience. I'll guess that you never read Fever Crumb, A Web Of Air and Scrivener's Moon. You just saw an opportunity to take a shot at someone (me, in this case) so you could sound important. I hope AreYouStillThere takes my positive advice instead of your negative advice.
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Sep 1, 2013 18:45
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Has anyone read River of Stars? I'm about half way through and not enjoying it as much as I did Under Heaven.
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Sep 2, 2013 02:28
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specklebang posted:I would hope that instead of taking your advice which is to "never ever, ever listen to tell you to read a book series in chronological order", a completely pointless comment that contributed nothing and uses completely unrelated examples, and instead read some books in chronological order if they are already published and available that way. Counter: if an author wanted to tell a story a particular way, he/she would have written it in that order.
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Sep 2, 2013 03:06
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Yeah, I think publication order is almost always the way to go, and absolutely the way to go in the case of Foundation.
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Sep 2, 2013 03:12
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Hedrigall posted:Counter: if an author wanted to tell a story a particular way, he/she would have written it in that order. It's not the obligation of the reader to follow the presumed wishes of the author. I was profoundly affected by my reading of the original quadrology and I followed the author with great interest. When the Fever Crumb books were released, I bought and kept them without reading them. I did correspond with the author when he offered the 3rd book of the group, Scrivener's Moon, which I purchased at auction for a charitable event. He suggested that I go ahead with my marathon read because he doubted there would be another Fever Crumb book forthcoming. Having then read them in chronological order, I found a great deal of added value in understanding the background of some of the primary issues. I rarely post here unless I have something to contribute and I specifically offered my suggestions on the basis of what I experienced. Indeed, I believe that the Fever Crumb portion of the overall arc must have been created before the Mortal Engines sequence. Otherwise, should there not have been an explanation of Stalkers, Airships (including the Jenny Haniver) and the very concept of the Traction Cities themselves? If you have read all 7 books and you genuinely feel that I have misjudged this, then I suppose this is just a POV conflict. If, however, you have not read the Fever Crumb segment, then your criticism of my judgement might just be unfair. My suggestion is specific to this series and not something I automatically suggest. However, if you are perhaps a reader of Neal Asher's work, you'll experience the same thing (to a lesser degree) by reading them in their chronological state instead of their publication dates. The drawing I attached are the (drafts) of the ones that adorn the interior pages of Scrivener's Moon. Mr. Reeve drew these in my copy as part of the auction agreement. This is Shrike (or Grike) with my 3 cats. specklebang fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Sep 2, 2013 |
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Sep 2, 2013 04:04
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Haerc posted:Has anyone read River of Stars? I'm about half way through and not enjoying it as much as I did Under Heaven. I enjoyed it although I felt some POV characters were much more interesting than others and wished the book focused on just them.
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Sep 2, 2013 04:08
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Hedrigall posted:Counter: if an author wanted to tell a story a particular way, he/she would have written it in that order. Counter-Counter: Writing is a business, and money and sales can come before the creator's wishes and prohibit them telling the story the way they want. Stephen King being the best example, but there are a few others like Charles Stross, Ken MacLeod, Joe Abercrombie, and Terry Prachett who have later gone back and added books at different points in a particular series to alter the flow of the narrative to make it what they wanted, after initial sales proved successful.
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Sep 2, 2013 04:43
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savinhill posted:I enjoyed it although I felt some POV characters were much more interesting than others and wished the book focused on just them. I think that is my problem as well... Some of the characters are just kind of boring.
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Sep 2, 2013 05:08
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So Scalzi won the Best Novel Hugo for Redshirts. *cringes* I like Scalzi but man.
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Sep 2, 2013 09:10
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Fried Chicken posted:Counter-Counter: Writing is a business, and money and sales can come before the creator's wishes and prohibit them telling the story the way they want. Stephen King being the best example, but there are a few others like Charles Stross, Ken MacLeod, Joe Abercrombie, and Terry Prachett who have later gone back and added books at different points in a particular series to alter the flow of the narrative to make it what they wanted, after initial sales proved successful. I'm not saying your point is (necessarily) wrong, but at least one of your examples is. All of Abercrombie's work matches with regards to publication and internal chronology. I'm also drawing a blank on Stross, but he has more books out so its possible I'm forgetting one.
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