|
You do know that Acadians are actually a group with a large amount of people living in Maine, right?
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2013 17:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 18, 2024 16:57 |
|
|
Peanut President posted:"Other Responses" are amazing I know some people who would say "Jewish" or "Christian" to describe their ancestry. These people tend to have their faiths feature very strongly in their family histories, and can come from families who moved to America to attain more tolerance for their faith. Responses based on LDS-genealogy could also go into that category.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2013 17:56
|
|
|
Thanks for the clarificationsLP97S posted:You do know that Acadians are actually a group with a large amount of people living in Maine, right? I thought Acadian was an archaic term.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2013 18:01
|
|
|
Peanut President posted:I thought Acadian was an archaic term. It's not like someone struggling to create an interesting backstory for himself based on where his great-great-grandparents were from cares about accurate terminology.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2013 18:03
|
|
|
Peanut President posted:I thought Acadian was an archaic term. Not in the North-East + Maritime Canada. We even have a flag! 
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2013 18:03
|
|
|
Peanut President posted:Thanks for the clarifications http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acadians They love using it, and there's about 30,000 living in Maine and 96,000 up in Canada.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2013 18:06
|
|
|
Peanut President posted:"Other Responses" are amazing Are ancestry and ethnicity separate questions on the US census? I'm ancestrally Irish (3 of my 4 pairs of great-grandparents were first or second generation Irish immigrants) but since my grandparents on down were born and raised in Scotland I would put Scottish if asked my ethnicity. I figure I'd put Irish if asked my ancestry since I happen to know that but two generations from now I doubt my grandchildren will identify as Irish in any way, and that will be less than two centuries since my Great-grandparents came over. I bring this up because Appalachian doesn't seem particularly absurd to me. Wouldn't that be folks in rural areas some of whom have ancestors who arrived 400 years ago? Is there some other reason it's dumb I don't get?
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2013 18:47
|
|
|
Reveilled posted:Are ancestry and ethnicity separate questions on the US census? I'm ancestrally Irish (3 of my 4 pairs of great-grandparents were first or second generation Irish immigrants) but since my grandparents on down were born and raised in Scotland I would put Scottish if asked my ethnicity. I figure I'd put Irish if asked my ancestry since I happen to know that but two generations from now I doubt my grandchildren will identify as Irish in any way, and that will be less than two centuries since my Great-grandparents came over. I bring this up because Appalachian doesn't seem particularly absurd to me. Wouldn't that be folks in rural areas some of whom have ancestors who arrived 400 years ago? Is there some other reason it's dumb I don't get? There aren't questions about your family heritage that I can remember, it's mainly a self-identification question. On most forms there's a bit that asks you to self-identify racially with a separate question asking if you're hispanic or not. The racialization of "Hispanic" could be a whole different thread though.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2013 18:53
|
|
|
Reveilled posted:Are ancestry and ethnicity separate questions on the US census? I'm ancestrally Irish (3 of my 4 pairs of great-grandparents were first or second generation Irish immigrants) but since my grandparents on down were born and raised in Scotland I would put Scottish if asked my ethnicity. I figure I'd put Irish if asked my ancestry since I happen to know that but two generations from now I doubt my grandchildren will identify as Irish in any way, and that will be less than two centuries since my Great-grandparents came over. I bring this up because Appalachian doesn't seem particularly absurd to me. Wouldn't that be folks in rural areas some of whom have ancestors who arrived 400 years ago? Is there some other reason it's dumb I don't get? They're self-selecting categories and no, they're the only ones. It gets really fun with things like if you're Middle-Eastern because you're Caucasian, if you're Latino/Hispanic you have to choose which one better identifies you, and the ever nebulous "other." It is every bit as stupid and meaningless as you think but ethnicity/heritage/ancestry in America is a pretty stupid and dumb topic so it fits the bill.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2013 19:15
|
|
|
Was kinda surprised people identified as Negro and Colored and then realized it is probably elderly people who were raised in the south pre-civil rights movement and got a little depressed.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2013 20:26
|
|
|
Why, is there something wrong with those identities? Also African-Americans all over the country self identified as negro or colored prior to the adoption as black/African-American beginning in the 1960s, including many civil rights leaders, the terms were not restricted to the south.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2013 21:08
|
|
|
Barudak posted:They're self-selecting categories and no, they're the only ones. It gets really fun with things like if you're Middle-Eastern because you're Caucasian, if you're Latino/Hispanic you have to choose which one better identifies you, and the ever nebulous "other." I don't know if it is necessarily stupid but the result of the American melting pot. Too bad people (especially white people) inter-marry to really have distinct ethnic groups any more, but people at least emotionally want to attach themselves to something other than being "American" at least for the most part. In Russia, you have your national identity and your ethnic identity and they are very separate things in their eyes. As Americans it is more difficult to communicate identity in the same terms since ethnicity identity is weak but still lingers. For them at least you can't just say you're "American."
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2013 22:29
|
|
|
ptk posted:Why wasn't the Kingdom of Hungary under the Hapsburgs part of the HRE? Was it like an earlier form of the German Question? German Confederation, 1815: 
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2013 00:01
|
|
|
A lot, perhaps even most, Hasidic Jews will write 'Jewish' for their ethnicity. I write Ashkenazi, since that's a better description. I wonder if it gets lumped into 'religious response.'
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2013 03:09
|
|
|
This's always confused me, why was Bohemia in the German Confederation?
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2013 03:11
|
|
|
DerLeo posted:This's always confused me, why was Bohemia in the German Confederation?
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2013 03:17
|
|
|
DerLeo posted:This's always confused me, why was Bohemia in the German Confederation? It was considered an integral part of (The Kingdom of) Austria, If I recall correctly; As opposed to Hungary which was a part of the Hapsburg Dominion.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2013 03:19
|
|
|
The Prince of Bohemia was an Elector. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince-elector Sure, he was kinda viewed as an outsider king . . . or at least that Bohemia wasn't as German as the other parts of the HRE but it was still part of the whole deal.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2013 03:37
|
|
|
Shbobdb posted:Sure, he was kinda viewed as an outsider king . . . or at least that Bohemia wasn't as German as the other parts of the HRE... Also, the post of King of Bohemia was frequently held by the Emperor himself.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2013 03:43
|
|
|
Though to be fair, the non-German-speaking parts were mostly less involved in the laws and institutional dealings of the Empire than the rest. The princes of Imperial Italy for example weren't allowed to sit in the Imperial Diet, their territories weren't incorporated into the Imperial Circles and the statues of the Ewiger Landfriede didn't apply to them (the Reichshofrat continued to play an important role there, however). The elites of the Burgundian Circle (Burgundy and the Low Countries) felt little connection to the Empire already by the early 16th century (leaving Imperial jurisdiction in 1548) and chose to rebel against Spain/the Hapsburgs in 1568, leaving the Empire for good with the Treaty of Westphalia (as did the Swiss). Silesia belonged to the Bohemian crown until 1742. From the 15th century onward to 1708, the King of Bohemia only acted in his capacity as a prince-elector during actual elections; Bohemia wasn't part of the circles as well. On the western border, territories and cities like Savoy, Metz etc. were slowly, but steadily pulled out of Imperial influence by the French, even though they legally remained a part of the Empire for much longer, Savoy even up to 1801. And then there were the many German-speaking territories which held a privilegium de non appellando/evocando, meaning that Imperial jurisdiction was limited there as well; especially Prussia distanced itself massively from the Empire during the 18th century. On the other hand, the territories of the Teutonic Knights in the Baltic regions were regarded as part of the Empire far into the EME by the Emperor and the Diet, even if this was far from reality. In short: it's complicated, as is everything concerning the HRE 
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2013 08:44
|
|
|
Forgive me if this sounds ignorant, but why do so many Americans seem obsessed with calling themselves Irish-, German-, Italian-American or what have you? I get wanting to trace back your ancestry, but to me it seems that with a few quirks and exceptions, white Americans definitely all belong to the same macro-culture and have more similarities with each other than they would have commonalities with the people of their supposed ancestral homelands.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2013 09:03
|
|
|
the jizz taxi posted:Forgive me if this sounds ignorant, but why do so many Americans seem obsessed with calling themselves Irish-, German-, Italian-American or what have you? I get wanting to trace back your ancestry, but to me it seems that with a few quirks and exceptions, white Americans definitely all belong to the same macro-culture and have more similarities with each other than they would have commonalities with the people of their supposed ancestral homelands. Probably because while they are more similar to each other than other peoples, there is still some remaining familial/emotional homeland other than America even if they are 5 generations removed. It is the ultimate result of a melting pot culture. Also, the emphasis isn't on the first portion of the adjective but the second.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2013 09:33
|
|
|
the jizz taxi posted:Forgive me if this sounds ignorant, but why do so many Americans seem obsessed with calling themselves Irish-, German-, Italian-American or what have you? I get wanting to trace back your ancestry, but to me it seems that with a few quirks and exceptions, white Americans definitely all belong to the same macro-culture and have more similarities with each other than they would have commonalities with the people of their supposed ancestral homelands. Sometimes those quirks are worth noting. Irish- and Italian-Americans tend to have some cultural quirks relating to family, religion and cuisine that are noteworthy. I'm less familiar with German-Americans, but I think they are more forgettable in the big pool of 'WASP'. Jewish-Americans (usually Ashkenazi) definitely have some unique cultural features that can be separated out from the 'whites' to the point that they have at some points not been considered white at all. But the existence of the hyphen and the 'American' part is also important. I don't think any Irish-, German-, Italian- or Whatever- American would suggest that they are at all the same as the people in The Old Country. A new Irish immigrant to America or an Irish-American in Ireland would not feel at home in either situation, but it's also interesting to study the differences and why they took place. What aspects of Italian culture has an Italian-American family retained four generations after immigration, and in what ways have they become 'white Americans'? In some ways it's a silly exercise in trying to feel special, and in some ways it's a really cool topic of study/discussion.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2013 09:39
|
|
|
I think a large part of white america's perceived homogeneity has come from the dissolution of German-American groups after WWI and WWII. They were actually quite culturally distinct and had a strong sense of group identity up until the onset of WWI, when anti-german propaganda forced many of them to break up and yield the prominent "ethnic white" position back to the Irish. Considering that Germans are the single largest group of descent in America, I think the country would look quite different if we hadn't demonized them way back when. Edit: To elaborate further on a point I just remembered, a lot of German-American culture was tied up in drinking halls and brewing, and Prohibition had a very blatant anti-German racist bent. If the war made German-Americans keep their heads down, I would suspect that Prohibition sealed the destruction of most of their cultural activities because of the legal harrassment they received. The Ken Burns documentary "Prohibition" goes into this stuff in the first episode. It's on Netflix. TheBalor fucked around with this message at 09:50 on Sep 4, 2013 |
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2013 09:47
|
|
|
Personally, I think it is going difficult to form any multi-ethnic state (yes, the United States is one) without some identifier of ethnicity. The remarkable thing about the US is how flattened it because within a generation. I do think some of the misconception comes from the assumption that a "hyphenated American" is either a new ethnicity or pretending to be a "old world" ethnicity while for the most part it has become the ghost of a familial ethnic identity that shows up for Easter or trips abroad.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2013 10:13
|
|
|
I'm aware that self-perception on ethnicity and culture is a layer cake, but indeed it's the hyphenation that strikes me as odd. But, come to think of it, plenty of third-generation immigrants in Belgium who are not recognisably West-European and part of a large enough group get labeled with a hyphenated identity as well. This is a relatively new phenomenon, though, and I'd wager it's part racism ("they can never be true Belgians so we will label them as such") and also because they've retained a lot of aspects of their ancestral culture, such as religion, food, social habits, etc.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2013 10:24
|
|
|
the jizz taxi posted:I'm aware that self-perception on ethnicity and culture is a layer cake, but indeed it's the hyphenation that strikes me as odd. Basically, it just took longer for it to happen in Western Europe, probably because North America still has so much drat space.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2013 10:35
|
|
|
Well the original idea of *-American was otherism. The original colonists were mostly English and French, which is why you've never heard of an English-American or a French-American. As the other cultures started to come around, they were considered others. The Irish, for an example, were seen as Mexican-American are today, no good job stealers. The KKK actually put irish on the same level as black for a while. John Kennedy, a catholic with an Irish-American background (I think?) had to deal with a lot of poo poo from people afraid that the Pope was going to take over america.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2013 12:43
|
|
|
Peanut President posted:Well the original idea of *-American was otherism. The original colonists were mostly English and French, which is why you've never heard of an English-American or a French-American. As the other cultures started to come around, they were considered others. The Irish, for an example, were seen as Mexican-American are today, no good job stealers. The KKK actually put irish on the same level as black for a while. John Kennedy, a catholic with an Irish-American background (I think?) had to deal with a lot of poo poo from people afraid that the Pope was going to take over america. I would argue the French aspect as most Americans with a French background either came through Quebec, Maine, or Louisiana and so identify as French-Canadian, Acadian, or Cajun. IIRC, the bulk of the original colonies were English along the coast and Scottish (arriving later after the failed Jacobian uprising) in the Appalachians. There were also smaller populations of Swedes and Dutch from acquired colonies in New York and Delaware. I have not run in to anyone from those groups identifying as *-American although recently the Scottish have tried to bring back some past traditions with the Scottish Games.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2013 13:22
|
|
|
Squalid posted:hmm... pretty sure you're just a dumbass bigot who should keep his big dumb mouth shut on issues he doesn't understand. Like you gotta be real dense to to say something like this, probably without any personal experience on the subject, committing the exact same offense for which you look down on southerners, totally unaware of how hypocritical you sound. "Nobody knows where my ancestors came from.. well except for x, y, and z, but gently caress that because I don't like that." If I didn't have any personal experience with southerners denying their ancestors emigrated from anywhere but a bald eagle's rear end in a top hat, I do now. But I'll drop it and look away (look away, look away). I don't eat lefse everyday, but I don't let that stop me from acknowledging that my ancestors came from "Somewhere in the dong above Europe".  Riso posted:If I were born and raised by third gen American born and raised parents, I too would only put down American. Here's what they're looking for, according to census.gov: quote:Ancestry refers to a person’s ethnic origin or descent, "roots," or heritage, or the place of birth of the person or the person’s parents or ancestors before their arrival in the United States. Some ethnic identities, such as "German" or "Jamaican," can be traced to geographic areas outside the United States, while other ethnicities such as "Pennsylvania Dutch" or "Cajun" evolved in the United States. "Hi my name is Bob, I'm ethnically American, like my father and his father before him."  Victor Vermis fucked around with this message at 14:29 on Sep 4, 2013 |
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2013 13:52
|
|
|
If I were born and raised by third gen American born and raised parents, I too would only put down American.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2013 14:02
|
|
|
I'm a third gen Irish-American but next time the census rolls around I'm putting down American because my experience with any Irish heritage is potatoes and leprechauns.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2013 14:24
|
|
|
I'm definitely "American". My family has been here since the 1680s. I could put Scottish, but that is purely notional.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2013 15:04
|
|
|
Is Victor Vermis a self-hating Southerner or some more generic variant of bigot?
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2013 15:10
|
|
|
Riso posted:If I were born and raised by third gen American born and raised parents, I too would only put down American. When discussing with people not from the states I'm American. When you discuss inside the states theres no way I can do that because culturally I'm not 100% lockstep with mainstream America simply because of my ethnic makeup. I think its important to recognize that while there are overarching American cultural traits (WASPy as they may be) they don't represent the complete identity for many Americans whose intertwined ethnic/cultural background has given them variations on the normative standards. Hence ethnicity-American.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2013 15:31
|
|
|
Next time I take a survey that asks my ethnicity, I'm putting down "none."
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2013 17:15
|
|
|
Ras Het posted:Is Victor Vermis a self-hating Southerner or some more generic variant of bigot? I'm sorry, I didn't realize region-specific illiterates were a protected population. Can I lynch myself now or do we have to wait for the social justice clown-car to arrive?
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2013 18:08
|
|
|
Victor Vermis posted:I'm sorry, I didn't realize region-specific illiterates were a protected population. Can I lynch myself now or do we have to wait for the social justice clown-car to arrive? Does class discrimination only exist in the minds of the politically correct social justice brigade?
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2013 18:09
|
|
|
Presumably I'm discriminating against the lower class Southerners, am I right? So, say.. all these dark red areas: Which also happen to be majority Black counties, as seen in the original map (2 pages ago, if you haven't seen it yet) and also in this map:  How is it bigotry to point out that white people, living mostly above the poverty line, are dumb/exhibiting an ultra-patriotic brand of xenophobia for answering "American" when asked about their ancestry? They're white. If their family has been in the country for so long that nobody really remembers who came here and when, then it's probably safe to assume they're English for the purpose of a U.S. Census. If they want to identify as American, Moonman, or "none" that's wonderful, but it's not helpful in data collection.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2013 18:39
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 18, 2024 16:57 |
|
|
So you're saying that it would be more reliable if they arbitrarily picked out a European ethnicity to identify with? 'American' is a much more honest answer than someone saying he's 'Irish-American' just because his last name happens to be Irish. I don't even know what you're complaining about. The way that the American government collects data about race and ethnicity is stupid and nonsensical, anyway. But I forgot we're talking about Southerners, Sherman should have killed them all, etc.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2013 18:56
|
|
