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Vengeance of Pandas posted:That was only in the Stallone film, if they had run out of ammo they would have reverted to a mix of boot knives and whatever guns came to hand. It's just that the lawgiver is the superior weapon and the average Judge wouldn't abandon it until absolutely necessary. It may also be safe to assume that if Judges were issued DNA-aware Lawgivers, criminals might have similar tech to prevent Judges from using their weapons against them.
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Sep 5, 2013 16:43
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Baron Bifford posted:Well, this is a scene that plays out a lot in the modern day. Do you ever watch police chase videos? In America, if a car doesn't pull over on the orders of a cop, the cop will chase it down. Sure, this opening scene was not self-defense, but it's normal procedure. The violence that ensued was extraordinary, though. Not really
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Sep 5, 2013 17:14
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Grendels Dad posted:That's beside the point. You said they were a danger therefore Dredd had to stop them. But we only saw them becoming a danger when Dredd started chasing them. Dredd didn't chase them because they ran over a jaywalker, they ran over a jaywalker because Dredd was chasing them. They could of...I don't know...pulled over? If a cop goes to pull me over for reckless driving and instead I speed up and run someone over is it the cop's fault or mine?
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Sep 5, 2013 17:17
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Criminals commonly blame everyone else for what they do. "He made me kill him! Was it worth putting up a fight over his wallet?"
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Sep 5, 2013 17:25
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People usually drive faster and more recklessly the more aggressively they are chased. To a large extent the pursuer sets the tone for the pursuit. Besides, pulling over would have meant decades in the cubes for possession. Or an on the spot execution depending on the judge and his mood.
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Sep 5, 2013 17:27
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In a broader sense, you could criticize the system for allowing such a situation to happen in the first place: in an ideal world criminal gangs should never be powerful and bold enough to fight cops. But you can't use that to bash Dredd for defending himself when placed in mortal danger.
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Sep 5, 2013 17:54
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MC1 is not an ideal world. There is over population, a lack of resources and work. This is where the crime and gangs come from. We are supposed to be critical to the system in the movie. If a cop can torture you legally, you may want to go out shooting instead of being arrested.
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Sep 5, 2013 18:08
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Baron Bifford posted:In a broader sense, you could criticize the system for allowing such a situation to happen in the first place: in an ideal world criminal gangs should never be powerful and bold enough to fight cops. But you can't use that to bash Dredd for defending himself when placed in mortal danger. I think this entire opening was misread by a lot of people. It's not about "is it self defense or not that Dredd chased drug addicts or incinerated a hostage taker's head." It's that if Dredd actually stopped to see that their hit and run victim was tended to instead of giving further chase no one else would have even died. If it wasn't a given that the penalty for using slowmo was pretty serious no one would have died at all. Even Equilibrium got this right when they say outright that following the law above all else even in regards to human life is just vigilantism and mayhem rather than justice, creating more violence than it stops. The judge system in Dredd has created the gangs because by valuing the law for the law's sake people know that in the eyes of their rulers, they're worthless. There's a reason the gun is called a lawgiver and not a peacemaker like the weapons of the dimestore western heroes and vigilante stories that inspired Dredd in the first place. Anderson's ability (which in real life terms is more just "look at the big picture and ask people why they're angry instead of murdering them on site"), that empathic temperance, makes them a perfect team. Dredd slowly starts to realize this throughout the course of the movie so we see the same guy from the beginning of the film stunning some kids in self defense instead of blowing them apart* and letting that cyber-eyed hacker live. *Yes I know in the comics you can't execute kids and there are juve cubes but I'm just looking at the film itself (and also there is no stun setting in comic lawgiver).
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Sep 5, 2013 18:15
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catch22 posted:They could of...I don't know...pulled over? It was said already, but the punishment they would have faced would have likely been ridiculously high. This is even made clear on a textual level during Dredd's "negotiation" with the last remaining guy. He simply has no incentive to comply because every outcome seems equally lovely for him. So better risk it and try outrunning a Judge than being sentenced to ten billion years on the Isocubes for "Is that slo mo I smell? STEP OUT OF THE CAR"
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Sep 5, 2013 18:25
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Neo Rasa posted:"is it self defense or not that Dredd chased drug addicts or incinerated a hostage taker's head."
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Sep 5, 2013 18:30
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You keep saying self defense but what about all those examples I posted and you agreed to? What about the fact that after Dredd learns about the drug lab he decides escalate the situation by going head to head with the gang? Anderson says they know the situation better now and that backup is coming but Dredd sees a frontal assault as the better move.
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Sep 5, 2013 18:36
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Sure, the drug bust was not self-defence, it was aggression. A lot of people in this thread were arguing that most of the deaths Dredd caused after Ma-Ma let loose her gang were unprovoked aggression when they were self-defense. You can't declare war on somebody then plead innocence when you get stung.
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Sep 5, 2013 21:17
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Baron Bifford posted:You can't declare war on somebody then plead innocence when you get stung. I'm confused, who are you talking about in this statement? Dredd came to Peach Trees to apprehend the murderer. He's a Judge, so that pretty much means killing them. Everything Ma-Ma did to Dredd and Anderson was "self-defense" if you broaden the term to such an extent. (I think it's completely absurd to describe the majority of what Dredd or Ma-Ma or their respective subordinates did in the film as "self-defense" as if that absolves them. It's a gang war. Ma-Ma gambled on whether she'd provoke a Judge response by committing a very flashy murder, and the Judges provoked her by sending what amounts to an assassin after her.) Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Sep 5, 2013 |
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Sep 5, 2013 21:28
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I'm not claiming that the gangs are somehow innocent. I feel like you keep changing what you are arguing. Earlier you wanted examples of Dredd being just as violent as the gangs and I pointed out several moments where he mirrors the Ma-Ma not to mention the wounded man execution, the drug bust, setting people on fire. Now remember Dredd doing this is all legal. You ask why criminals would risk shooting at Dredd and I remind you being homeless is an arrestable offence. Can you imaging what Dredd might do to someone doing drugs or having firearms?
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Sep 5, 2013 21:37
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Well, there are American cities right now where being homeless is an arrestable offense, de facto if not de jure. I'm not sure if that makes it a better or worse analogy.
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Sep 5, 2013 21:41
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Oh, I know it really happens. I think in the film its there to show you what kind of order Dredd is protecting. I mean where the hell is the guy gonna go? To Dredd it doesn't matter the guy is still breaking the law. If that doesn't come across as MC1 is a poo poo place to live, I don't know what to say.
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Sep 5, 2013 21:46
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Baron Bifford posted:Criminals commonly blame everyone else for what they do. "He made me kill him! Was it worth putting up a fight over his wallet?" Assuming that this is about the car chase, they literally showed police drones monitoring the drivers. There was no reason for Dredd to be chasing them through a crowded street when they could have waited for them to go somewhere with less civilians. Had Dredd not been chasing them then no one would have died. This is a quantifiable fact.
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Sep 5, 2013 22:58
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Grendels Dad posted:That's beside the point. You said they were a danger therefore Dredd had to stop them. But we only saw them becoming a danger when Dredd started chasing them. Dredd didn't chase them because they ran over a jaywalker, they ran over a jaywalker because Dredd was chasing them. Obviously they were noticeable in some aspect or else Judge "only prosecutes 6% of crime" Dredd wouldn't be chasing them.
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Sep 6, 2013 01:08
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Just caught this on Netflix and I am really disappointed in how they squandered Lena Heady. They gave Ma-Ma such an amazing setup and Lena Heady is such an amazing actress, then they don't give her any scenes or lines to really work with. I kept waiting for some super hardass, vicious moments, but they were basically just in her backstory. I feel like she has like 10 lines all movie. Other than that I was pretty drat impressed with the movie after going in with moderate expectations.
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Sep 6, 2013 01:55
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computer parts posted:Obviously they were noticeable in some aspect or else Judge "only prosecutes 6% of crime" Dredd wouldn't be chasing them. Yep. They state right at the beginning that "We've got a positive ID on three suspects wanted on multiple counts."
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Sep 6, 2013 02:06
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Neo Rasa posted:Dredd slowly starts to realize this throughout the course of the movie so we see the same guy from the beginning of the film stunning some kids in self defense instead of blowing them apart* and letting that cyber-eyed hacker live. I never got the impression that saving the kids was a change in temperament, just a standard 'kids are less culpable under law' type affair so they get stunned rather than killed. As for the hacker. it was Andersons call to make, as she points out she's still in charge because of the exam.
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Sep 6, 2013 02:25
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Improbable Lobster posted:Assuming that this is about the car chase, they literally showed police drones monitoring the drivers. There was no reason for Dredd to be chasing them through a crowded street when they could have waited for them to go somewhere with less civilians. Had Dredd not been chasing them then no one would have died. This is a quantifiable fact. I don't know that there really are any places with less civilians in Mega City 1. Isn't that kind of the point of MC1, in fact? Also that's not a quantifiable fact, that's a counter-factual/contra-historical. We do know that a jaywalker was hit during the chase by Dredd. We don't know what would have happened had Dredd not chased them, because that didn't happen.
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Sep 6, 2013 06:35
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They were getting hosed up on Slo-mo so they might have just run someone over or caused a huge wreck anyways. I'm kind of amazed at how much analysis this film is still getting a year later. I think goons have managed to think about the little details way more than anyone who made it did. Not that I am ragging on Dredd, it's one of my favorite action movies of all time, but holy hell I think you guys have picked apart just about every second of the film at this point. To me it just boiled down to the gangsters being objectively bad, the judges are fascists and are also bad, but the Judges are more sympathetic due to their intentions in the context of the film. veni veni veni fucked around with this message at 06:48 on Sep 6, 2013 |
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Sep 6, 2013 06:44
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NESguerilla posted:To me it just boiled down to the gangsters being objectively bad, the judges are fascists and are also bad, but the Judges are more sympathetic due to their intentions in the context of the film. Really? Because to me it seemed like the movie went out of its way to show that they weren't. There was one gangster who clearly was part of the gang for the sake of his wife and little baby, there was fabulous hair-dude, there was Robot Eye Geek. There were so many instances where it was shown that the inhabitants of Peach Trees in general were victims that I'm quite frankly puzzled how one could reach the conclusion that they are objectively bad. Take the Gatling Gun scene. The best way to escape such kind of butchery is to be behind the gun. Hoping that a Judge will settle things before you get horrifically killed is not the way to go in MC1, unless you are one of the happy 6%, and even those aren't always happy to meet a Judge, as can be seen in the Food Court scene.
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Sep 6, 2013 07:00
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PerfectTommy posted:MC1 is not an ideal world. There is over population, a lack of resources and work. This is where the crime and gangs come from. We are supposed to be critical to the system in the movie. If a cop can torture you legally, you may want to go out shooting instead of being arrested. This is a really amusing point from a cracked list:  It'd be hilarious to think Megacity One isn't half as bad as the Judges make it out to be, and they're still this hardline.
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Sep 6, 2013 07:20
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Also you probably have to account for most of the major population centers being nuked first. I can't read and that poster actually does compare pure numbers.  EDIT: Maybe fewer people bother to report crimes? Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 07:25 on Sep 6, 2013 |
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Sep 6, 2013 07:22
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Like are we trying to really have a debate over the idea that there may be some redeemable/admirable qualities to criminals and their situations may be forced on them? That police may be well intention-ed but bring about more violence and misery in pursuit of their goals? Like that might be a really obvious core theme of the movie and pretty common observation about real life as well? Holy moly.
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Sep 6, 2013 07:23
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Grendels Dad posted:Really? Because to me it seemed like the movie went out of its way to show that they weren't. There was one gangster who clearly was part of the gang for the sake of his wife and little baby, there was fabulous hair-dude, there was Robot Eye Geek. There were so many instances where it was shown that the inhabitants of Peach Trees in general were victims that I'm quite frankly puzzled how one could reach the conclusion that they are objectively bad. Sorry. I meant that more in the sense that the gangsters were objectively bad as an organization, not as individuals and how I perceived the movie vs. reality . The movie went out of it's way to show you that those people were pretty much forced into their situations through intimidation or having amazing hair, so there is a ton of grey (black?) area in the way Judges operate, but in regards to the basic story I think Dredd and Anderson are still the heroes and Ma-Ma is the villain. Can anyone honesty tell me they weren't rooting for Dredd and Anderson at any point in the film? veni veni veni fucked around with this message at 07:28 on Sep 6, 2013 |
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Sep 6, 2013 07:26
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DeclaredYuppie posted:Like are we trying to really have a debate over the idea that there may be some redeemable/admirable qualities to criminals and their situations may be forced on them? That police may be well intention-ed but bring about more violence and misery in pursuit of their goals? Like that might be a really obvious core theme of the movie and pretty common observation about real life as well? I'd go one step further and say the police isn't well intentioned. Dredd at least is only interested in upholding The Law and dealing out Justice, and his efforts are mostly separated from the subjects he's dealing out the justice to. That's what makes it a satire.
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Sep 6, 2013 07:28
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Blazing Ownager posted:This is a really amusing point from a cracked list: This ignores very low report rates in areas with poor response time. In a city with a 6% response rate who's gonna bother with the chaos and the violence that are the Judges that could take ages to respond if ever? Most people are going to either be forced to resolve disputes on their own terms or work with a local gang to settle 'em. Cracked isn't a proper source. Maarak fucked around with this message at 08:27 on Sep 6, 2013 |
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Sep 6, 2013 07:57
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A simpler explanation is that the writer didn't give much care about the statistics he was making. "17,000 crimes a day? Gawd! That sounds like A LOT! Let's go with that."
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Sep 6, 2013 08:14
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Or people just stopped bothering with noise complaints on loud parties and reporting kids for spray painting a dick on a wall, because they were too busy debating whether or not they should call in about that skinned dead body on their welcome mat.
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Sep 6, 2013 08:20
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plus, if you report a crime in MC1, you're doing it knowing that if the person is actually caught by a judge they will face years in the isocubes or be killed.
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Sep 6, 2013 08:34
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On the other hand, it seems like a lot of the "reporting" is done via crime-spotting satellite or drones. Take the three homicides in Peach Trees, it's pretty doubtful that anyone in Peach Trees called 911. They probably would have felt safer just shuffling the stiffs off to rehab. What we see is that drone's-eye-view of the atrium with the corpses tagged in red squares, so that's probably how it was "reported".
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Sep 6, 2013 08:34
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Maarak posted:This ignores very low report rates in areas with poor response time. In a city with a 6% response rate who's gonna bother with the chaos and the violence that are the Judges that could take ages to respond if ever? Most people are going to either be forced to resolve disputes on their own terms or work with a local gang to settle 'em. It gives a cite. Edit, though this is a stupid tangent: wikipedia reports 7000 crimes per 100k, so that makes 21000000 crimes per year in the US, divided by 365 = 57 000 per day. sebmojo fucked around with this message at 08:44 on Sep 6, 2013 |
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Sep 6, 2013 08:36
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Well, OK then. I'm sure that's exactly what Garland intended to convey when he wrote that figure. The citizens are covering up crimes because they are too afraid or they hate the Judges.  Shanty posted:They probably would have felt safer just shuffling the stiffs off to rehab. Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 09:25 on Sep 6, 2013 |
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Sep 6, 2013 08:37
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Shanty posted:On the other hand, it seems like a lot of the "reporting" is done via crime-spotting satellite or drones. Take the three homicides in Peach Trees, it's pretty doubtful that anyone in Peach Trees called 911. They probably would have felt safer just shuffling the stiffs off to rehab. What we see is that drone's-eye-view of the atrium with the corpses tagged in red squares, so that's probably how it was "reported". I was always under the impression that the security guard that was killed by the corrupt judges reported it because he was tired of the violence in Peach Trees.
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Sep 6, 2013 08:52
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Blazing Ownager posted:This is a really amusing point from a cracked list: I'm not dead certain of this but doesn't Dredd say 17 thousand reported crimes every day 'in this sector', not the whole city?
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Sep 6, 2013 09:17
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BreakAtmo posted:I'm not dead certain of this but doesn't Dredd say 17 thousand reported crimes every day 'in this sector', not the whole city?
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Sep 6, 2013 09:23
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NESguerilla posted:I was always under the impression that the security guard that was killed by the corrupt judges reported it because he was tired of the violence in Peach Trees. Ah yeah, that's a good point. That guy seems pretty okay with helping judges. It's actually a little funny that when they first arrive he just straight up tells them "yeah, the Ma-Ma clan did this". Like, he's not even snitching, that's just a fact of life to him. So yeah, he could have reported it in the same spirit, three corpses, hosed with the Ma-Ma clan, business as usual, send in the recyc vans. e: Wait, security guard? You mean the medic guy right?
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Sep 6, 2013 09:57
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