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Continuity in game isn't so important, unless you're playing purely historical (Germans didn't have "x" in 1945, Imperials didn't have "y" during the Heresy, etc.) Continuity in the fiction is pretty important though - it's pretty dumb to have a book that states something happened at one point, then to explicitly come out and contradict that event later because Warhammer fiction is essentially people playing "Telephone" for thousands of years before writing things down. You should be able to point to a place on the timeline and say "this happened then" or "this weapon behaves that way," otherwise you get ten different authors describing how bolters work in ten different ways. It's pretty frustrating for readers who like their fluff to be relatively consistent.
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Sep 5, 2013 00:02
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Having the codexes be consistent wouldn't really prevent people from, say, painting a "modern" Space Marine army in heresy colors, or even playing a putatively Heresy-era army against a distinctly latter-day army, any more than it prevents you from making a counts-as genestealer cult or Jurassic Park army. Or to put it another way, anyone who would cry about Nathaniel Garro fighting Logan Grimnar would (and probably does) probably cry even harder about those examples.
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Sep 5, 2013 01:52
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Just started Know No Fear, and How has the massacre at Isstvan been kept a secret? Surely the surviving loyalists would have got a message out. Is it just a Chaos spell blocking communications, and if so how come some loyalists found out about Horus' betrayal but the Ultramarines were kept in the dark?
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Sep 5, 2013 17:08
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Fatty posted:Just started Know No Fear, and How has the massacre at Isstvan been kept a secret? Surely the surviving loyalists would have got a message out. Is it just a Chaos spell blocking communications, and if so how come some loyalists found out about Horus' betrayal but the Ultramarines were kept in the dark? While the survivors from Istvaan were making best speed to Terra, Lorgar was heading towards Ultramar. Astropathic communication between Ultramar and the Throne has always been spotty due to distance.
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Sep 5, 2013 17:19
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Pretty sure communications were blocked by a warp storm or something similar, and the Eisenstein was one of the only (the only?) vessels to escape back to Terra to warn the Imperium. Also I think the events in know no fear and the istvaan massacre were nearly instantaneous.
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Sep 5, 2013 17:23
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Demon Of The Fall posted:Pretty sure communications were blocked by a warp storm or something similar, and the Eisenstein was one of the only (the only?) vessels to escape back to Terra to warn the Imperium. Also around the time of Fear to Tread IIRC.
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Sep 5, 2013 17:47
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Yeah, BL isn't the best at specifying when certain novels take place on the timeline. Here's something I found:quote:M30 There's also this but I think the dates are mostly speculation. It would be pretty cool for BL or Forgeworld to do some sort of rough timeline though.
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Sep 5, 2013 18:35
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I thought the Lion was the first primarch to be found? Aren't the legions all numbered in order of their primarchs being found?
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Sep 5, 2013 18:50
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Depends who you ask. I don't think there's actually a published order before the Heresy though.
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Sep 5, 2013 18:58
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DirtyRobot posted:I thought the Lion was the first primarch to be found? Aren't the legions all numbered in order of their primarchs being found? EDIT: Here we go: quote:As Horus lay in coma inside the Davinite temple after being wounded by Eugen Temba, Erebus gave him visions that showed him events from various points in time. In one of these experiences, Horus found himself in the geno-vault where he was created, and looked down upon the genetor-tanks containing the infant Primarchs. At one point he stops before tank XI and reflects upon the "untapped glories that lay within, knowing they would never come to pass". This refers to one of the unknown Primarchs. Later on, Horus' anger takes control and he smashes his fist upon tank XI, damaging it. Shortly after, a vortex swoops up all the genetor-tanks and scatters them across the galaxy. And, yes, Horus was the first found, hence the "most favored son" status. berzerkmonkey fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Sep 5, 2013 |
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Sep 5, 2013 19:04
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berzerkmonkey posted:The legions are numbered in order of the pods their primarch was gestated in before they were lost in the warp. I am not making this up - one of the novels/stories makes it a point to mention the numbers on the pods in the Emperor's lab. Actually, it's more along the lines that the Legions were founded in succession, which followed the order of the primarch specimen they received their genetics from. So the First Legion took its genetic heritage from Primarch I (the Lion), the Second Legion from Primarch II, Legio III from Primarch III (Fulgrim), and so on and so forth.
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Sep 5, 2013 19:56
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berzerkmonkey posted:The legions are numbered in order of the pods their primarch was gestated in before they were lost in the warp. I am not making this up - one of the novels/stories makes it a point to mention the numbers on the pods in the Emperor's lab. I think theres also a bit in First Heretic where Argel Tal has a vision/Goes back in time and the pods are numbered there. He then is somehow responsible for the vortex. I dunno, Chaos.
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Sep 6, 2013 02:39
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Is it said anywhere whether the numbers were in any particular order or of any particular significance, or was it just like "we got twenty embryos coming in here, set up the tanks and put numbers on them so we can tell them apart"?
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Sep 6, 2013 05:51
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JerryLee posted:Is it said anywhere whether the numbers were in any particular order or of any particular significance, or was it just like "we got twenty embryos coming in here, set up the tanks and put numbers on them so we can tell them apart"? It's pretty obvious that the twenty Primarchs were all engineered to different specifications so they could fulfill different roles. (Magnus being basically a warp entity caged in flesh is a good example.) The numbers seem arbitrary, though, from what I can see.
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Sep 6, 2013 05:59
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Although the Lion thinks he should be the favourite and always makes a point of being "the first". And of course, poor old Alpharius was not only the last to be created, but also the last to be found. "Yay! We've found the last primarch!! Oh... he's a little bald dude"
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Sep 6, 2013 08:15
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Kenlon posted:It's pretty obvious that the twenty Primarchs were all engineered to different specifications so they could fulfill different roles. (Magnus being basically a warp entity caged in flesh is a good example.) The numbers seem arbitrary, though, from what I can see. Honestly my theory with the primarchs was a variety of attempts at making the perfect leader. He eventually met perfection, and just decided to gently caress around and see what he could make. Lion: Lets give him all my military and warrior genius! Oops i forgot to give him anything else, so he is autistic. 2nd: ??? Fulgrim: Alright we know what we did wrong with the Lion, and #2, lets make a perfect warrior.  did i make.... etc ... Alpharius/Omegon: What do we have left? I wonder if i can make 2 from 1.... 
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Sep 6, 2013 08:19
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That actually sounds very plausible. I wonder if we'll ever get a narrative dedicated to the primarchs' creation.
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Sep 6, 2013 08:23
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Lead Psychiatry posted:Then I totally misread that whole segment and thank you both for the correction. Even though I read it correctly the first time I'll never be able to get your hilarious idea of the Emperor telling Magnus to gently caress off home the way he came out of my head 
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Sep 6, 2013 14:34
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How much agency do people under the influence of Chaos have? It seems like the earlier Heresy stuff makes it sound like they're making conscious decisions but then some other Chaos stories just make it seem like their heads are filled with darklyrics.com bullshit.
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Sep 6, 2013 14:44
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SUPER NEAT TOY posted:How much agency do people under the influence of Chaos have? It seems like the earlier Heresy stuff makes it sound like they're making conscious decisions but then some other Chaos stories just make it seem like their heads are filled with darklyrics.com bullshit. I think the book Blood Pact by Dan Abnett does a very good job of giving us some insight into the minds of Chaos worshippers. It has a bunch of point-of-view sections of the leader guy and his sister.
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Sep 6, 2013 14:49
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SUPER NEAT TOY posted:How much agency do people under the influence of Chaos have? It seems like the earlier Heresy stuff makes it sound like they're making conscious decisions but then some other Chaos stories just make it seem like their heads are filled with darklyrics.com bullshit. Depends. I think that everyone starts off thinking they have control and mastery but in reality, the minute that Chaos is there, it is already corrupting and moulding your mind and soul. The intensity seems to depend on the individual and the circumstance. Even someone like Uldrad or Matt Ward's Grey Knights shouldn't be able to resist the full gaze/attention of the gods.
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Sep 6, 2013 14:52
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SUPER NEAT TOY posted:How much agency do people under the influence of Chaos have? It seems like the earlier Heresy stuff makes it sound like they're making conscious decisions but then some other Chaos stories just make it seem like their heads are filled with darklyrics.com bullshit. Daemonic Possession: 'Oh what's that little human? You want to breathe? Hmm, I'll think about it and get back to you.' Chaos Cultist: A battlefield lifespan is measured in mere minutes! Next to no agency! Readily available for sacrificial rites of all kinds! With neither the strength of will or the strength of body to resist the commands of others, get yours today! Chaos-Alligned, non-possessed: Very much in control of their own actions, even if they've got a bad case of the head-whispers. Think Abaddon, or the unnamed Warsmith in Storm of Iron.
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Sep 6, 2013 14:57
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Kegslayer posted:Even someone like Uldrad or Matt Ward's Grey Knights shouldn't be able to resist the full gaze/attention of the gods.
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Sep 6, 2013 15:14
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VanSandman posted:Think Abaddon, or the unnamed Warsmith in Storm of Iron. Unnamed no more! http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Barban_Falk (Spoilers for Angel Exterminatus).
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Sep 6, 2013 15:21
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Pyrolocutus posted:Unnamed no more! Yeah, but he was cooler when he didn't have a name and wasn't implied to be possessed. Possession is for dummies for the most part, unless your name is Argel Tal. VanSandman fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Sep 6, 2013 |
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Sep 6, 2013 15:24
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VanSandman posted:Possession is for dummies for the most part, unless your name is Arghal Tal. As an interesting side note/data point on the nature of possession, Argel Tal would not have died when he did if his daemon was in full control of him without needing his consent.
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Sep 6, 2013 15:38
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JerryLee posted:As an interesting side note/data point on the nature of possession, Argel Tal would not have died when he did if his daemon was in full control of him without needing his consent. Or if Arghal just payed some loving attention to his demon buddy.
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Sep 6, 2013 15:44
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With regard to those who have turned to Chaos, has anyone successfully turned away from it? Can the Emperor exorcise daemons and repair a former cultist's sanity? Or would even He write them off as lost and burn them?
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Sep 6, 2013 16:07
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Yes. Returning from Chaos service is a major plot point in at least 3 Gaunt's Ghosts books, and a retired cultist features in an inquisitors entourage in The Emperors Gift.
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Sep 6, 2013 16:13
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Yes. Daemons can be exorcised, and survivors of possession gain a certain resistance to the warp, so there's a number of applications to forcing this sort of situation (like an entire Space Marine chapter using the concept). Heretics can also repent and turn back into the Emperor's light, though most times this means dying in a fire unless they're useful assets for an Inquisitor or some other powerful individual or group.
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Sep 6, 2013 16:14
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Baron Bifford posted:I believe I've heard of some Grey Knight that is waltzing around the Warp, kicking bloodthirster rear end and making daemonettes blush, his awesome purity shielding him from everything. Matt Ward is terrible at writing fluff and authors like ADB have had no so subtle digs at him and how terrible his stuff is. It'd be hilarious if he ever wrote for the Horus Heresy though. Nephilm posted:Yes. Daemons can be exorcised, and survivors of possession gain a certain resistance to the warp, so there's a number of applications to forcing this sort of situation (like an entire Space Marine chapter using the concept). Heretics can also repent and turn back into the Emperor's light, though most times this means dying in a fire unless they're useful assets for an Inquisitor or some other powerful individual or group. Aside from the Dark Angels who
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Sep 6, 2013 16:45
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Kegslayer posted:Matt Ward is terrible at writing fluff and authors like ADB have had no so subtle digs at him and how terrible his stuff is. It'd be hilarious if he ever wrote for the Horus Heresy though. Where do you think servitors and servo-skulls come from?
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Sep 6, 2013 16:46
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Kegslayer posted:Matt Ward is terrible at writing fluff and authors like ADB have had no so subtle digs at him and how terrible his stuff is. It'd be hilarious if he ever wrote for the Horus Heresy though. Dark Angels don't take "redeemed" Fallen back - they just execute them once they've seen the error of their ways. IG (depending on the fluff you read) are usually just straight up executed after coming into contact with Chaos, on the off chance they might be corrupted. The only heretics that are welcomed back are Inquisitors, and that's only with one specific branch. Like Nephilm stated, the Exorcists actually get possessed by a daemon, just so they know what they're facing and Relictors use Chaos tainted weapons and daemonic artifacts, but they're an exception to the rule (and the Relictors are on the wrong side of the Inquisition and might have fallen to Chaos after getting stomped by the Grey Knights - or not.) But other than Dan Abnett or other writers taking artistic license with the universe, nobody really is going to welcome you back you if you're a heretic. Mind-wipe and eternal servitude for you! VV Whoops - you are correct. berzerkmonkey fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Sep 6, 2013 |
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Sep 6, 2013 17:04
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It's the Exorcists who get possessed, not the Grey Knights.
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Sep 6, 2013 17:18
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There's no real 'test' for Chaos influence, and Chaos influence is supremely, supremely bad. No amount of caution is too much. Hell, even seeing drawings of Chaos symbols makes the Inquisition look at you funny.
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Sep 6, 2013 17:31
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VanSandman posted:Where do you think servitors and servo-skulls come from? Servitors yes but aren't servo-skulls suppose to be the skulls of the faithful? Using a former demonhost as a servitor doesn't seem like a very good idea in any case.
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Sep 6, 2013 17:52
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The Exorcists are an interesting bunch. I wonder if they ever tried to make a Chapter composed of untouchables. Or does the Culexus Temple get dibs on all untouchables?
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Sep 6, 2013 17:52
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I would think you still want Astartes to deal with regular humans like those in planetary governments, IG, etc., so untouchables would be a bad thing because normal humans find them repulsive to be around. Also I doubt the Inquisition would like an entire Chapter of blanks running around, because we have some evidence even Chaos can still corrupt them.
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Sep 6, 2013 18:11
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SUPER NEAT TOY posted:There's no real 'test' for Chaos influence, and Chaos influence is supremely, supremely bad. No amount of caution is too much. Hell, even seeing drawings of Chaos symbols makes the Inquisition look at you funny. Because looking at drawings of Chaos symbols can seriously gently caress you up sometimes. Chaos is nasty that way in it's ability to sneak in anywhere there's a weakness.
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Sep 6, 2013 18:16
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Kenlon posted:Because looking at drawings of Chaos symbols can seriously gently caress you up sometimes. Chaos is nasty that way in it's ability to sneak in anywhere there's a weakness. It doesn't even have to be a symbol. Wasn't there an Abnett story about an accountant finding an impossible number in his journal entries? He ends up going to the Arbites who call Ravenor I think. His boss ended up being in a Chaos cult and the 'Chaos stuff' they did was just leaking out everywhere and messing round with reality.
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Sep 6, 2013 18:25
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