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There's a lot of crime in MC1. They picked a number that sounds big to people but not one that comes across as completely outrageous. Just like Prometheus and the 500 million miles away line.
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Sep 6, 2013 15:40
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NESguerilla posted:Sorry. I meant that more in the sense that the gangsters were objectively bad as an organization, not as individuals and how I perceived the movie vs. reality . The movie went out of it's way to show you that those people were pretty much forced into their situations through intimidation or having amazing hair, so there is a ton of grey (black?) area in the way Judges operate, but in regards to the basic story I think Dredd and Anderson are still the heroes and Ma-Ma is the villain. Can anyone honesty tell me they weren't rooting for Dredd and Anderson at any point in the film? I think its made clear in scene after scene that there is no "organization" to judge objectively, its just a group of people that are in this gang for their own specific reasons, and not all of them are there by choice. So yea, there will be people in it that are objectively bad people, but then you also have robot-eyes guy and the guy doing it to protect his wife and kid. Its just a lovely, lovely situation; there really is no "right" thing to do when you're Dredd and you're in that situation, the time to effect a more positive outcome was long before he showed up at Peach Trees. The system is totally hosed, thats the point, and Judges are a direct extension of that system. So to answer your question, yes about halfway through the movie it became clear that there was nobobdy to truly root for because nobody in it is 100% in the right. I was rooting for Anderson to survive because she has a likeable quality and was the rookie and all that, thats about it. Basebf555 fucked around with this message at 15:43 on Sep 6, 2013 |
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Sep 6, 2013 15:40
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leokitty posted:There's a lot of crime in MC1. They picked a number that sounds big to people but not one that comes across as completely outrageous. Just like Prometheus and the 500 million miles away line. Judge Dredd: A bunch of crimes reported every minute. Lots per day. We can respond to around a few. Anderson: Which few? Judge Dredd: Your show, rookie. You tell me.
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Sep 6, 2013 15:49
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That would have been a smarter thing to do.
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Sep 6, 2013 16:20
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Dredd says twelve serious crimes a minute, seventeen thousand a day. The USA figures were for all crimes not just serious ones.
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Sep 6, 2013 16:54
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marktheando posted:Dredd says twelve serious crimes a minute, seventeen thousand a day. The USA figures were for all crimes not just serious ones. I think he says violent actually. 17,000 violent crimes per day.
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Sep 6, 2013 17:15
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Basebf555 posted:I think he says violent actually. 17,000 violent crimes per day. No, I checked. He says serious.
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Sep 6, 2013 17:18
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I would have expected that to Dredd, all crime is serious.
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Sep 6, 2013 17:20
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Baron Bifford posted:That would have been a smarter thing to do. Not really, no. This wasn't even an issue until someone brought up a dumb Cracked list. Getting stuck on minute details is pretty silly and pointing out that whooaaa!!! this movie isn't reality isn't clever.
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Sep 6, 2013 17:26
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Basebf555 posted:I think he says violent actually. 17,000 violent crimes per day. Going by the FBI's statistics, there were 3,297 violent crimes and 24,830 property crimes occurring daily in the US in 2011. By "crime" I think they mean felonies; do they track misdemeanors? leokitty posted:Not really, no. This wasn't even an issue until someone brought up a dumb Cracked list. Getting stuck on minute details is pretty silly and pointing out that whooaaa!!! this movie isn't reality isn't clever. Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Sep 6, 2013 |
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Sep 6, 2013 17:30
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Improbable Lobster posted:Assuming that this is about the car chase, they literally showed police drones monitoring the drivers. There was no reason for Dredd to be chasing them through a crowded street when they could have waited for them to go somewhere with less civilians. Had Dredd not been chasing them then no one would have died. This is a quantifiable fact. This view depends wholly on whether you view The Law as something worth preserving or upholding (apart from how the movie shows it being upheld). As in, you have Party A who wants to capture Party B. Party A wants this because the social order or the social contract or the howeverithappens community standard has been violated by Party B. Party B wants to get away to escape the consequences of its actions and, presumably, to continue to violate those standards. If you approach the movie from a standpoint that The Law (as in The Community Standards) are arbitrary or even immoral, than sure, Party A and Party B aren't better than each other and since Party A started the chase, A is responsible for the outcome. But if you believe that community standards or "law and order" have some inherent value, then Party B is fully at fault for running. That doesn't mean we don't understand or sympathize for *why* they ran, but the pursuit was their duty as citizens to give up and they didn't. (EDIT: It occurs to me you're more talking about the drones monitoring them, but in this densely populated dystopia, where would those guys go that was deserted or without potential hostages? And we even see that when the last guy is fleeing, he takes time out of getting away to murder in cold blood. The last runner is basically as close to purely evil as the film is willing to talk about. He didn't need to shoot ANYONE for any reason in that shopping mall. He did it because he's a Bad Guy. So we know no matter where the judges chased him to, he would have murdered innocents for no reason as well.) And, I assure you, I understand that the film is sparking a discussion about crime, poverty, drugs, fascism, failures of the System, indignity at the margins, etc etc etc. But even in discussion those topics, the question remains, do three people who are wanted for breaking the social contract have a right to avoid consequence or do they have a duty to pay their debt to society? (Not that I think the film answers definitively, or advocates the methods that any particular character uses) That Dang Dad fucked around with this message at 07:18 on Sep 7, 2013 |
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Sep 7, 2013 07:15
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Some people on this thread are scandalized by the fact that cops will chase down criminals, that some criminals will do their utmost to avoid their punishment (sometimes for even minor things), and that there might be short-term risks to the public and the cops involved in pursuing criminals. Modern day justice is generally not as harsh as MC1 justice but we still have harsh penalties for some crimes and you will today see criminals resort to high-speed driving, violence, and hostage-taking to get away. Commuting the sentences for serious crimes in order to gently persuade the criminals to give themselves up is an absurd proposition. Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 07:49 on Sep 7, 2013 |
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Sep 7, 2013 07:46
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Modern justice serves the public good (at least more often than not). MC1 justice does not. "Justice" that does not serve the public good has no legitimacy and doesn't deserve to be treated as inherently special or separate from any other kind of violence. This has nothing to do with "harshness." Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 07:52 on Sep 7, 2013 |
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Sep 7, 2013 07:49
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Also most cops in the modern justice system are banned from participating in high speed pursuits, specifically because of the risk to the public.
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Sep 7, 2013 08:30
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Not in the very place Dredd satirises foremost: the US.
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Sep 7, 2013 11:14
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Baron Bifford posted:Some people on this thread are scandalized by the fact that cops will chase down criminals, that some criminals will do their utmost to avoid their punishment (sometimes for even minor things), and that there might be short-term risks to the public and the cops involved in pursuing criminals. This is a terrible straw man. Nobody thinks criminals should get away, all of what you claim has been discussed in the context of the movie and as per usual you're either too thick to get it or are trolling.
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Sep 7, 2013 14:19
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How effective is the Judge system shown to be in this movie? At the end of the car chase you have one dead pedestrian, three dead criminals and one person who got to watch as a mans head is burned inside out. At the point we leave Peach Trees we have dozens of dead gang members, an entire block of bystanders reduced to rubble, one less drug lab and a void for another gang to fill. As we see in several shots during the movie Peach Trees is just one megablock out of hundreds. Does the black and white morality of the Dredd really help anyone? I mean we see him get pissed about Anderson letting the hacker go because he can't even see the guy as a victim, just a criminal. Bifford you seem to see the criminals as all black and white even when the movie show us shades of grey. Look at the guy that Anderson kills. He lives in a place with 90% unemployment and its controlled by a gang. His options are probably do illegal poo poo and maybe get caught and skinned by Ma-Ma or just work for Ma-Ma. Hell, look at Ma-Ma herself, a prostitute getting beat by her pimp. What was she going to do call the police? Now I'm not saying biting off a guys dick and starting a gang is the right answer, but it might seem like a good option in a place like MC1.
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Sep 7, 2013 14:53
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At the end, it's very effective city wide, because they just stopped THE drug lab producing slo-mo.
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Sep 7, 2013 15:20
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Riso posted:At the end, it's very effective city wide, because they just stopped THE drug lab producing slo-mo. There are a lot of indications that there are other drug labs out there. Slo Mo is a new drug spreading fast, but closing it down just means people will continue using the drugs Slo Mo would have replaced.
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Sep 7, 2013 15:23
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Dredd didn't seem to think it was a big deal. Just a "drug bust".
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Sep 7, 2013 15:33
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That's just 'cause Old Stoney Face has ice-water in his veins.
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Sep 7, 2013 15:56
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Riso posted:Not in the very place Dredd satirises foremost: the US. Actually a lot of states do ban high speed pursuits. Low speed pursuits not so much, but exceeding a certain speed police aren't supposed to give chase in vehicles. That's what police helicopters are for.
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Sep 7, 2013 18:31
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TheJoker138 posted:Actually a lot of states do ban high speed pursuits. Low speed pursuits not so much, but exceeding a certain speed police aren't supposed to give chase in vehicles. That's what police helicopters are for. This is definitely the case in the UK. All car chases have to have the passenger giving a live commentary back to a call centre and the inspector there makes the call on when to abandon. I don't think speed is the only reason for abandoning though - driving on wrong side of road/on pavement/driving at things etc can all get the chase called off. The downside is that crooks know this and drive as dangerously as they can so the chase is called off and hope the chopper is too busy elsewhere to pursue.
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Sep 7, 2013 19:08
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Basebf555 posted:I think its made clear in scene after scene that there is no "organization" to judge objectively, its just a group of people that are in this gang for their own specific reasons, and not all of them are there by choice. So yea, there will be people in it that are objectively bad people, but then you also have robot-eyes guy and the guy doing it to protect his wife and kid. Its just a lovely, lovely situation; there really is no "right" thing to do when you're Dredd and you're in that situation, the time to effect a more positive outcome was long before he showed up at Peach Trees. The system is totally hosed, thats the point, and Judges are a direct extension of that system. So to answer your question, yes about halfway through the movie it became clear that there was nobobdy to truly root for because nobody in it is 100% in the right. I was rooting for Anderson to survive because she has a likeable quality and was the rookie and all that, thats about it. Anderson represents a justice system that attempts to understand criminals and takes extenuating circumstances into consideration. She sees that a guy is in a gang to feed his wife and kid. She sees that a criminal was coerced and abused and stockholmed into becoming a criminal. Dredd does not give a poo poo about any of the hows and whys. It's brilliantly contrasted.
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Sep 7, 2013 19:48
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PerfectTommy posted:How effective is the Judge system shown to be in this movie? My arguments weren't really about the ineffectiveness of the Judge system; is IS bad. My arguments were about the motives of the characters in the course of the events that happen in Peach Trees. My arguments were also about the satirical nature of the film. The dystopia of MC1 is more of a backdrop; it is not put into focus so that it can be analyzed and mocked. PerfectTommy posted:Now I'm not saying biting off a guys dick and starting a gang is the right answer, but it might seem like a good option in a place like MC1. edit: Interestingly, the Dredd prologue comic seems to validate your view. 
Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 09:15 on Sep 8, 2013 |
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Sep 7, 2013 19:56
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Baron Bifford posted:I think the ineffectiveness of the Judge system is evident in the fact that the whole mess in Peach Trees could happen in the first place. Gangs openly attacking lawmen like this would be unthinkable in a modern developed nation. You're right, it is pretty ineffective. Your first 3 sentences are completely at odds with the part I bolded. The Judge System is part of the Dystopia that is MC1. The fact that gangs openly attack lawmen is all part of that. I'm not even sure you know what it is you're arguing anymore. How is it not put into focus? The entire movie is literally "MC1 Sucks, the Judges Sucks, Everything Sucks" and somehow the only thing you came away with from this movie was that two judges went into a building and shot a bunch of bad guys. Did you actually pay attention to any part that didn't involve Dredd killing someone?
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Sep 7, 2013 20:03
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Steve Yun posted:Anderson represents a justice system that attempts to understand criminals and takes extenuating circumstances into consideration. She sees that a guy is in a gang to feed his wife and kid. She sees that a criminal was coerced and abused and stockholmed into becoming a criminal. Then why does Dredd give her a pass? Is it because even he recognizes his inability to create change?
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Sep 7, 2013 20:10
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Despite technically failing, she was extremely effective. The fact that Dredd gave her a pass is a sign that Dredd has opened up his mind a tiny bit at the end (at least, that's how I interpret it). I love that it's understated and not like Dredd acts like his life has changed or anything sappy like that. Steve Yun fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Sep 7, 2013 |
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Sep 7, 2013 20:17
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Undead Unicorn posted:Then why does Dredd give her a pass? Is it because even he recognizes his inability to create change? I was under the impression that Dredd realized her Lawgiver wasn't her "primary weapon," but her mind/psychic powers.
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Sep 7, 2013 20:22
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Undead Unicorn posted:Then why does Dredd give her a pass? Is it because even he recognizes his inability to create change? She performed admirably in the field test, and didn't lose her primary weapon.
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Sep 7, 2013 20:33
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Ahh, that's a clever point.
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Sep 7, 2013 21:00
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Although what he is saying is not inaccurate, B. Bifford is 'lying in the guise of truth'. It doesn't matter if the people actually are violent, torturers whatever. These selective bits of truth are used to justify and uphold a system of oppression. This is another way of expressing H. G. Frankfurt's definition of bullshit. Bullshit is fake but not necessarily wrong. When Anderson attempts to read Dredd's mind and encounters, beneath everything, an unspeakable void - this is the capricious abyss beneath the 'rational' order, where the whole Law is founded on the mad declaration 'it is because I said so!' Hence, "I am the Law!" The crucial thing is that Dredd actually is the Law. But he is the Kantian concept of it, where: "... the law is no longer regarded as dependent on the Good, but on the contrary, the Good itself is made to depend on the law. This means that the law no longer has its foundation in some higher principle from which it would derive its authority, but that it is self-grounded and valid solely by virtue of its own form. [...] Kant, by establishing THE LAW as an ultimate ground or principle, added an essential dimension to modern thought: the object of the law is by definition unknowable and elusive. ... Clearly THE LAW, as defined by its pure form, without substance or object of any determination whatsoever, is such that no one knows nor can know what it is. It operates without making itself known. It defines a realm of transgression where one is already guilty, and where one oversteps the bounds without knowing what they are, as in the case of Oedipus. Even guilt and punishment do not tell us what the law is, but leave it in a state of indeterminacy equaled only by the extreme specificity of the punishment." (-Deleuze) You can kind-of see this in the opening images of the drones scanning everyone, the assertion that crime is the norm and so most people are already guilty. So, when Dredd re-invents his universal Law for each particular situation in the battle, this is not some suspension of the normal rules - it's the rules working exactly 'as they should'.
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Sep 8, 2013 14:53
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Vagabundo posted:She performed admirably in the field test, and didn't lose her primary weapon. She did lose her gun though.
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Sep 8, 2013 15:37
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Her gun wasn't her primary weapon 
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Sep 8, 2013 16:06
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Steve Yun posted:Despite technically failing, she was extremely effective. SuperMechagodzilla posted:You can kind-of see this in the opening images of the drones scanning everyone, the assertion that crime is the norm and so most people are already guilty. Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Sep 8, 2013 |
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Sep 8, 2013 16:14
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Zzulu posted:Her gun wasn't her primary weapon Its not really either all though, I mean calling her mind he "primary weapon" would be a bit of legalese that runs counter to what the rule is obviously worded to mean. If judges are judge, jury and executioner they may have to follow "the law" but they obviously have a high degree of flexibility and bias as to what "the law" actually means. massive spider fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Sep 8, 2013 |
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Sep 8, 2013 17:04
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Baron Bifford posted:Dredd considers every citizen in Meg to be a potential criminal but the drones don't mean anything. They might have lots of drones because they're cheaper than helicopters so they can afford to have lots in the air all the time. It's still pretty amazing to me how you can just go out and say "That thing that was featured in the movie doesn't have any meaning, it's there because Real World Reasons and clearly this movie aimed at maximum realism  ". And then you make claims about the levels of symbolism in the movie. Simply amazing.
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Sep 8, 2013 17:09
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Baron Bifford posted:Dredd is smart enough to realize that a telepath as capable as Anderson warrants special consideration. I wondered why Dredd did not propose that Anderson worked for the Hall of Justice in some auxiliary capacity, given that she failed the standard tests. It looks like Dredd is not a total martinet. It doesn't matter whether they're being watched by helicopter or robot, what matters is that they are all under scrutiny for being potential criminals.
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Sep 8, 2013 18:12
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Baron Bifford posted:Dredd considers every citizen in Meg to be a potential criminal but the drones don't mean anything. They might have lots of drones because they're cheaper than helicopters so they can afford to have lots in the air all the time. I'm convinced you're just trolling everyone at this point because I really don't know how it's possible to watch a movie where drones are shown to be constantly watching citizens and say that doesn't mean anything with a straight face.
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Sep 8, 2013 20:19
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I watch this movie every chance that a person tells me that they haven't seen it. I think it is one of the best action movies of the past 20 years. It is just that good. The thing is I like Dredd as a character but I don't like the black and white comics. Is there any good color comic series with Dredd? I've been seeing most of them are black and white unless I'm just bad at finding this information. Thanks for any help
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Sep 8, 2013 20:26
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