Canadian Politics Megathread: That is simply not Trudeau

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Canadian Politics Megathread: That is simply not Trudeau

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PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

I wonder if Masonic symbols will be forbidden if they're too large? One of my friends has a pretty prominent Masonic ring (possibly a little larger than the Secret Jew Ring in the poster).

# ? Sep 10, 2013 19:22

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 11:59

Juul-Whip: Mar 10, 2008

Freemasons are mostly Western European so it's probably fine.

# ? Sep 10, 2013 19:31

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

THC posted:

Freemasons are mostly Western European so it's probably fine.

So is the majority of the Jewish community in Quebec, as far as I know, but yarmulkes are still forbidden.

# ? Sep 10, 2013 19:37

Franks Happy Place: Mar 15, 2011; It is by weed alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the dank of Sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by weed alone I set my mind in motion.

Yes, but hating on Jews has a long and rich history in Quebec, and this bill is all about respecting Quebecois traditional culture after all.

# ? Sep 10, 2013 19:40

Pinterest Mom: Jun 9, 2009

This is weird. The Bloc (THE BLOC) thinks the PQ's charter goes too far.

# ? Sep 10, 2013 20:05

Meat Recital: Mar 26, 2009; by zen death robot

firewalker posted:

What about Sikhs working construction? Don't they have to wear protection helmets? I am not for the Charter (and I hate the hypocrisy surrounding the christian symbols), but this idea that you simply can't take off a piece of clothing seems preposterous to me.

I work in a big steel shop, where hardhats are mandatory, and all of our Sikh employees simply wear their hardhats over their turban.

# ? Sep 10, 2013 20:19

Albino Squirrel: Apr 25, 2003; Miosis more like meiosis

Pinterest Mom posted:

Yes. Hospitals, schools, universities, daycares, crown corps, police.

Wait, hospitals? Do they know how many doctors/nurses are Sikh, Muslim, or Jewish? Would they seriously prefer to set their healthcare system on fire than live with the hotbed of radicalism that is MUHC?

I don't even.

# ? Sep 10, 2013 20:21

flakeloaf: Feb 26, 2003; Still better than android clock

I'll be damned if I let one of them foreigner doctors operate on ME with her face covered.

# ? Sep 10, 2013 20:23

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

If this was implemented in BC the entire health system would shut down. My last 2 doctors wore turbans and countless nurses and support staff do as well.

# ? Sep 10, 2013 20:24

Conch Shell Corp: Feb 24, 2009

There needs to be another referendum regarding Quebec sovereignty if this poo poo passes, but this time it'll be the rest of Canada kicking Quebec out. Montreal can stay as a new province or something, the open-faced double standards regarding crosses and christmas trees, etc. are particularly vile. I assume the language police will just be rebranding themselves as the Quebecois Mutaween and be enforcing this?

# ? Sep 10, 2013 20:28

Kafka Esq.: Jan 1, 2005; "If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

Regence posted:

There needs to be another referendum regarding Quebec sovereignty if this poo poo passes, but this time it'll be the rest of Canada kicking Quebec out. Montreal can stay as a new province or something, the open-faced double standards regarding crosses and christmas trees, etc. are particularly vile. I assume the language police will just be rebranding themselves as the Quebecois Mutaween and be enforcing this?

Thanks, but we've been over this trollbait two pages ago.

# ? Sep 10, 2013 20:32

Hodgepodge: Jan 29, 2006; Can't post for 208 days!

Well, it's good to know one may fulfill an obligation to dress modestly by wearing jewelry, I guess :allears:

# ? Sep 10, 2013 20:35

HappyHippo: Nov 19, 2003; Do you have an Air Miles Card?

Pinterest Mom posted:

The SCC can't strike down this bill. The PQ has no qualms about using the notwithstanding clause.

Helpfully, the charter infringes on the *Qu�bec* charter of rights, which predates the Canadian one. It'll never even make it to the Supreme Court.

For what it's worth, they said earlier they weren't willing to use the notwidthstanding clause on this one. Don't know if they'll be singing the same tune when it gets struck down, but we'll see.

Edit:
From here

quote:

Ms. Marois said her government would defend its plan in court, but has no intention of using the Constitution�s notwithstanding clause, which would allow the PQ to override the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

�We�re not launching judicial battles,� Ms. Marois said. �The objective is not to provoke.�

HappyHippo fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Sep 10, 2013

# ? Sep 10, 2013 20:40

Meat Recital: Mar 26, 2009; by zen death robot

Even if it gets struck down, it's something the PQ can point to to rally it's base. It's a lovely situation all around, and it's disappointing the feds cant/wont step in to sto pthis kind of thing from happening again.

e: just the fact that there's an option to override the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is mind boggling.

# ? Sep 10, 2013 20:44

Panama Red: Jul 30, 2003; Only in America could you find a way to earn a healthy buck and still keep your attitude on self destruct

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2013/09/10/quebec-montreal-survey-suggests-secular-charter-support.html

quote:

The survey conducted by SOM, one of the largest survey firms in Quebec, pegs support for a secular charter that would ban religious symbols for public employees at 66 per cent.

A poll conducted two weeks ago by L�ger Marketing for le Journal de Montr�al found support to be 58 per cent.

...

The SOM survey was conducted online, in French and English, from Aug. 30 to Sept. 5, with 1937 Quebec respondents.

The survey�s maximum margin of error is 2.6 per cent, 19 times out of 20.

The survey is based on a poll from the Netherlands asking deliberately provocative questions such as:

�I don't like to be on a bus or train with a lot of non-native Quebeckers,� and �I don't feel at ease when immigrants talk among each other in a language I cannot understand.�

After posing questions about immigration, culture and diversity, the survey asked respondents if they had heard about the proposed charter that would ban public employees from wearing religious symbols.

The survey found support for the proposed Quebec Values charter is higher in the following segments of the population:

Quebec Internet users who live outside of Montreal or Quebec City (70 per cent);
those 45 to 54 years old (72 per cent);
those with less formal education (no degree or equivalent to the high school diploma: 70 per cent);
those who have French as their mother tongue (71 per cent).

So basically gently caress rural middle-aged working class francophones!

Also, pretty much a guarantee that the NDP's Quebec contingent is going bye-bye, no?

# ? Sep 10, 2013 20:48

Franks Happy Place: Mar 15, 2011; It is by weed alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the dank of Sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by weed alone I set my mind in motion.

That's basically exactly why you have a ~~Constitution~~ Charter, in a nutshell.

# ? Sep 10, 2013 20:50

DynamicSloth: Jul 30, 2006; "Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth."

Panama Red posted:

Also, pretty much a guarantee that the NDP's Quebec contingent is going bye-bye, no?

Well every party running Federally in Quebec seems to have come out against it unless the Greens are up to something unexpected.

I don't know why anyone think backing this legislation this would be a sound political stratagem for anyone, it may buy the PQ a sugar high in opinion polls that lasts a few weeks but the swaths of the population being scapegoated here are never going to forgive and never going to forget long after anyone else is quietly embarrassed they ever thought this was a workable idea.

# ? Sep 10, 2013 21:01

Panama Red: Jul 30, 2003; Only in America could you find a way to earn a healthy buck and still keep your attitude on self destruct

But presumably those people weren't voting for the nationalist PQ or the CAQ to begin with. So what happens provincially? A faster-than-expected forgiveness of the Quebec Liberals? And who profits federally within Quebec? If even the BQ is against the charter I guess nobody?

# ? Sep 10, 2013 21:06

DynamicSloth: Jul 30, 2006; "Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth."

I suspect it will prove a lot like gun control in the US, it seems like a majority favour it, but when you get down to the people willing to actually give a poo poo and get organized that calculus will turn around fast.

# ? Sep 10, 2013 21:12

Ceciltron: Jan 11, 2007; Text BEEP to 43527 for the dancing robot!; Pillbug

I wish people here in Quebec would acknowledge the QS exist and have opposed this whole thing from the start. Everyone seems to be stuck in the old "PQ (CAQ) OR LIBERALS!" rut. It's getting impossible to explain that the PQ isn't anywhere near a left-wing party.

Family dinnertime conversation is getting harder to stomach.

# ? Sep 10, 2013 21:19

Nine of Eight: Apr 28, 2011; LICK IT OFF, AND PUT IT BACK IN; Dinosaur Gum

HappyHippo posted:

For what it's worth, they said earlier they weren't willing to use the notwidthstanding clause on this one. Don't know if they'll be singing the same tune when it gets struck down, but we'll see.

Edit:
From here

"The intent is not to provoke"

# ? Sep 10, 2013 21:31

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

Probably time to just send in the tanks again... make sure many of the soldiers have turbans.

# ? Sep 10, 2013 21:33

HackensackBackpack: Aug 20, 2007; Who needs a house out in Hackensack? Is that all you get for your money?

I think, if this is to be truly fair, it needs an update.

That's better.

# ? Sep 10, 2013 21:38

Excelsiortothemax: Sep 9, 2006

I guess no spaghetti strainers either.

# ? Sep 10, 2013 21:43

Juul-Whip: Mar 10, 2008

Regence posted:

There needs to be another referendum regarding Quebec sovereignty if this poo poo passes, but this time it'll be the rest of Canada kicking Quebec out. Montreal can stay as a new province or something, the open-faced double standards regarding crosses and christmas trees, etc. are particularly vile. I assume the language police will just be rebranding themselves as the Quebecois Mutaween and be enforcing this?

It's time to give those fucken kebekkers the old heave-ho. Only then will alberta's oil be safe.

# ? Sep 10, 2013 21:45

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

Are there any canadian polling companies that carry one ounce of credibility? Given their records on predicting election outcomes, I'm surprised any of them are still in business.

# ? Sep 10, 2013 21:49

flakeloaf: Feb 26, 2003; Still better than android clock

Nine of Eight posted:

"The intent is not to provoke"

I say the intent is to provoke the federal government into intervening so the federalists have another example of the evil Anglo oppressors meddling in Quebec's right to self determination.

# ? Sep 10, 2013 21:52

Panama Red: Jul 30, 2003; Only in America could you find a way to earn a healthy buck and still keep your attitude on self destruct

Ceciltron posted:

I wish people here in Quebec would acknowledge the QS exist and have opposed this whole thing from the start. Everyone seems to be stuck in the old "PQ (CAQ) OR LIBERALS!" rut. It's getting impossible to explain that the PQ isn't anywhere near a left-wing party.

Family dinnertime conversation is getting harder to stomach.

It's interesting that only one of the student leaders from the tuition protests entered mainstream Quebec politics and did so as a PQ member. I'm guessing that most young lefties believe the establishment is what it is and believe getting involved will lead to selling out, or that the PQ -- as an established party with an existing following -- is the most pragmatic way to get progressive policies enacted.

Also, I know it contradicts the survey I mentioned, but hasn't there also been this tendency on the left to promote secularism and ban religious symbols, especially those perceived as being imposed on women and hindering gender equality? Even in Montreal there have to be lefties who reject multiculturalism as a form of moral relativism that defends and enables patriarchal repression. The Christopher Hitchens approach.

# ? Sep 10, 2013 21:57

JawKnee: Mar 24, 2007; You'll take the ride to leave this town along that yellow line

flakeloaf posted:

I say the intent is to provoke the federal government into intervening so the federalists have another example of the evil Anglo oppressors meddling in Quebec's right to self determination.

I was thinking along these lines too, an attempt to rev up an 'us vs them' mentality and increase enmity towards the federals if this gets struck down by the SCC, if it makes it that far. I'm not really willing to entertain that reasoning seriously though until we see more developments.

# ? Sep 10, 2013 22:04

Conch Shell Corp: Feb 24, 2009

Panama Red posted:

Also, I know it contradicts the survey I mentioned, but hasn't there also been this tendency on the left to promote secularism and ban religious symbols, especially those perceived as being imposed on women and hindering gender equality? Even in Montreal there have to be lefties who reject multiculturalism as a form of moral relativism that defends and enables patriarchal repression. The Christopher Hitchens approach.

It's a case of people thinking they know what's best for other people. There's no chance that they're wearing the hijab/yarmulke/kirpan as part of their cultural and personal identity, it's obviously some sort of oppressive tool.

# ? Sep 10, 2013 22:11

Baloogan: Dec 5, 2004; Fun Shoe

I think we should ban cigarrets in Quebeck in retalitation. I've give them 1-2 hours before we get the french flag of surrender.

# ? Sep 10, 2013 22:12

Juul-Whip: Mar 10, 2008

Add Neil Young to the list of treasonous radical Canadians of convenience.

quote:

�The fact is, Fort McMurray looks like Hiroshima. Fort McMurray is a wasteland. The Indians up there and the native peoples are dying,� Young said at National Farmers Union event on Capitol Hill Monday, according to The Hill.

�People are sick. People are dying of cancer because of this. All of the First Nations peoples up there are threatened by this. Their food supply is wasted, their treaties are no good. They have the right to live on the land, like they always did, but there�s no land left that they can live on. All the animals are dying.�

The event was devoted to promoting biofuels but Young had harsh words for the Keystone pipeline, TransCanada�s proposed project to ship bitumen from the oil sands of Alberta to refineries in Texas.

�I hope it doesn�t go,� Young, a Toronto-born musician who rose to rock prominence during the 1960s, said during his Capitol Hill address.

�It�s going to put a lot of people to work, I�ve heard that, and I�ve seen a lot of people that would dig a hole that�s so deep that they couldn�t get out of it, and that�s a job too, and I think that�s the jobs that we are talking about there with the Keystone pipeline,� he said.

...

Young has long been an advocate for the environment and small farmers. He co-founded the benefit concert Farm Aid in 1985.

He recently travelled to Fort McMurray from San Francisco in his �LincVolt� � a 1959 Lincoln Continental powered by electricity and ethanol.

Young said he ran out of fuel in Red Deer, Alta. on his way back because he could not find any E-85 fuel or pure ethanol to fill up his tank.

�In Canada, where the dirtiest oil on the planet is extracted from the Alberta Tar sands at an immeasurable human cost to the First Nations people, and disease statistics reflect 30% increase in some fatal diseases, there is no freedom to choose an alternative to gasoline at the pump. This is un-Canadian,� Young wrote on his blog.

Juul-Whip fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Sep 10, 2013

# ? Sep 10, 2013 22:13

mik: Oct 16, 2003; oh

The PQ has dug themselves into a hole where the only way out is to keep digging deeper I guess. I can't believe in the graphic of acceptable/ostentatious wear they actually make up their own jewelry suggestions for non-christian religions.

The photo attached to the notwithstanding clause wiki entry seems appropriate.

# ? Sep 10, 2013 22:17

JayMax: Jun 14, 2007; Hard-nosed gentleman

Ceciltron posted:

I wish people here in Quebec would acknowledge the QS exist and have opposed this whole thing from the start. Everyone seems to be stuck in the old "PQ (CAQ) OR LIBERALS!" rut. It's getting impossible to explain that the PQ isn't anywhere near a left-wing party.

Family dinnertime conversation is getting harder to stomach.

I hear you.

I've had this discussion with my parents. They're in their sixties and have lived in rural Quebec their whole lives. I don't think they've ever seen someone wearing a turban. I don't (want to) believe they're racist, but they are very ignorant about these issues. While talking to them I found out that what got them the most riled up was seeing Justin Trudeau on TV talking against the charter. To them, this has become yet another Canada/Trudeau VS Quebec issue.

# ? Sep 10, 2013 22:18

Scaramouche: Mar 26, 2001; SPACE FACE! SPACE FACE!

Cordyceps Headache posted:

you will see that Islam has been included in the non-ostentatious religious symbols. You are free to wear as many Star and Crescent earrings as you want! I mean, those a clearly a thing actual Muslims wear to express their faith, and totally not a hackneyed attempt at seeming even-handed in their policing of people's clothing.

This gets even better because ostentatious displays of any gold jewelry is haram for men, and while allowed for women, not really encouraged:
http://www.icp-pgh.org/subpages/islam_subpages/pastqa.html

# ? Sep 10, 2013 22:37

Franks Happy Place: Mar 15, 2011; It is by weed alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the dank of Sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by weed alone I set my mind in motion.

Where is that dickhead who was insisting in this thread that the law wasn't racist because it also precluded Quebecois from dressing up like Bonhomme at work? I'd like for him to come back and make some more Really Good Points.

# ? Sep 10, 2013 22:39

angerbot: Mar 23, 2004; plob

People should dress like Bonhomme at all times.

# ? Sep 10, 2013 22:49

Squibbles: Aug 24, 2000; Mwaha ha HA ha!

angerbot posted:

People should dress like Bonhomme at all times.

If I lived in Quebec I would go as corrupt Bonhomme for halloween for sure.

Only registered members can see post attachments!

# ? Sep 10, 2013 22:51

Hypha: Sep 13, 2008

If the law passes, I'm taking down all the baseball caps from the fence posts and putting 'em in turbans. I'm sure the hawks will like the feel of them better.

# ? Sep 10, 2013 22:52

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 11:59

Daynab: Aug 5, 2008

That ring and earring turn this whole farce from "bad" into "comically bad". Would almost be funny if I wasn't living here.
There's chances they'll back off doing this like they've backed off doing pretty much everything so far, at least.

Meanwhile, Quebec Solidaire's response,

In brief, they support secularism and neutrality of the state and its employees, but not regulating what that employee can wear (as long as their face is visible).
They say there's a big difference between secularising the state and the individual.

They call out the whole crucifix thing (as they have since the start of this debate).

Last sentence: "Qu�bec solidaire will continue to assert its positions: yes to a secular state, religiously neutral but also to a just and inclusive society."

The Federation of Women of Quebec has also come out with a statement against it, says a lot of the same reasons and calls out the government that the real inequality is in conservatism and asks where the government has been when it's time to defend us against the Federal's reforms and such.

]A letter has been signed by hundreds of intellectuals and teachers against this charter.

The four potential mayors of Montreal reject it.

The Federation Autonome des Enseignants (represents 1/3 of teachers in the province) said they would do everything possible to fight it.

So this really seems like the start of a big battle, and it seems like it really is rural Quebec vs Montreal/Quebec City?

# ? Sep 10, 2013 22:56

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Canadian Politics Megathread: That is simply not Trudeau

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