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Daynab posted:So this really seems like the start of a big battle, and it seems like it really is rural Quebec vs Montreal/Quebec City? I'm sure it will be a healthy, well-intentioned debate that will respect minority rights and lead to good things for Quebec.
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Sep 10, 2013 23:05
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Panama Red posted:Also, I know it contradicts the survey I mentioned, but hasn't there also been this tendency on the left to promote secularism and ban religious symbols, especially those perceived as being imposed on women and hindering gender equality? Even in Montreal there have to be lefties who reject multiculturalism as a form of moral relativism that defends and enables patriarchal repression. The Christopher Hitchens approach. It's not really a tendency exclusive to the left, but it is a particular problem with Western secular liberals, who often see their own ideological and cultural background as quintessentially tied up with the liberal project of the secular state. The role of the state then incorporates legislating the particular normative framework expressed by that background, at the expense of other normative frameworks which might equally express, protect, nurture, etc. liberal principles like freedom and autonomy. Sherman Jackson has started talking about that tendency, and he calls it "perfectionist liberalism", which he opposes to "neutralist liberalism", an approach in which the state does not seek to produce better, more secular, more liberal citizens. Perfectionist liberalism is exemplified by France's more recent laïcité doctrine and this Quebec stuff, while the ROC tends to pursue a more neutralist line. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJLl2S8oVtI I also very strongly recommend Talal Asad's work on this topic- you can find one of his lectures here if you're interested.
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Sep 10, 2013 23:26
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The worst part about the Quebec legislation is that it's overwhelmingly going to be Muslim women who are affected by this, as far as I can see. Scholars and laypeople alike have different opinions on the religious status of female headcovering, but it's common for it to be viewed as a fundamental act of worship, a way to present oneself that protects to a degree from the objectification of others, a cultural or religious requirement, etc. It's an extremely important part of the identity and religious practice of practicing Muslim women of many ethnicities, and there are many who will be dissuaded from pursuing jobs in 1/4 of the economy as a result. This is paticularly devastating for Muslims because sisters tend to be better educated, more employed, and higher earning than brothers. Tariq Ramadan talks about this schism within the community here, which I think is relevant to this discussion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFMk1UDjwNI
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Sep 10, 2013 23:49
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Daynab posted:it seems like it really is rural Quebec vs Montreal/Quebec City? I don't think so. Quebec City is much more conservative than parts of rural Quebec. e: If anything, I think Quebec City federalists would tend to be in favour of the charter, while Montreal separatists would tend to be against it. JayMax fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Sep 11, 2013 |
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Sep 10, 2013 23:52
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Paper Mac posted:The worst part about the Quebec legislation is that it's overwhelmingly going to be Muslim women who are affected by this, as far as I can see. Scholars and laypeople alike have different opinions on the religious status of female headcovering, but it's common for it to be viewed as a fundamental act of worship, a way to present oneself that protects to a degree from the objectification of others, a cultural or religious requirement, etc. It's an extremely important part of the identity and religious practice of practicing Muslim women of many ethnicities, and there are many who will be dissuaded from pursuing jobs in 1/4 of the economy as a result. What's so BS is the way Marois talks about how they're doing this to "free" Muslim women from oppression. Yeah, effectively taking women's jobs away is a great way to emancipate them. Edit: Here's a quote: quote:Ms. Marois made it clear she wants to prevent government employees from wearing veils, stating it has a “connotation in regards to the equality between men and women, a form of submission.”
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Sep 11, 2013 00:10
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Quick non-Québec item: George Smitherman's husband is missing. Here's hoping they find him safe and sound. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2013/09/10/toronto-missing-man-christopher-peloso.html
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Sep 11, 2013 00:32
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I'm all for denouncing the charter and raking the PQ over the coals for it, but what some of you guys are saying just shows how you hate Quebec. Joking about sending tanks again? Seriously?
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Sep 11, 2013 01:32
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Yeah, seriously? Send our tanks into Quebec? That would require them to be functional. 
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Sep 11, 2013 01:36
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firewalker posted:I'm all for denouncing the charter and raking the PQ over the coals for it, but what some of you guys are saying just shows how you hate Quebec. It's almost like flagrant violations of rights are a pretty big deal, yeah. I harbour no ill will towards francophone Quebecers whatsoever, but this act is deplorable, as are those who support it. I'd support pretty extensive federal measures to intervene with what is essentially a large scale exile of non-Christian public sector workers. Tanks are hyperbole, but I'd hardly suggest heavy handed federalist intervention would be uncalled for when it comes to institutionalized racism and religious bigotry within Canada's borders. If the Quebec courts don't solve this, Canada should do what it needs to. Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Yeah, seriously? Send our tanks into Quebec? That would require them to be functional. Not to be that guy, but Canada's new tanks (Leopard 2 variants, replacing the Leopard 1 'C2' variant) are considered some of the best engineered tanks in the world, and one of the most widely used. And they don't have a habit of lighting vegetation on fire in wooded environments like the Abrams.
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Sep 11, 2013 01:40
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Poizen Jam posted:It's almost like flagrant violations of rights are a pretty big deal, yeah. [...] I see no way this charter will pass the Supreme court. Not to derail too much, but I don't recall you guys getting in such an uproar (in fact I don't recall you guys talking about this at all, but I might be wrong) about another recent case of rights violations: http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/supreme-court-rules-against-tabling-french-only-documents-in-b-c-1.1386111 I would be curious to hear what you think about the ruling and the behavior of BC's government in that case.
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Sep 11, 2013 01:50
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Poizen Jam posted:Not to be that guy, but Canada's new tanks (Leopard 2 variants, replacing the Leopard 1 'C2' variant) are considered some of the best engineered tanks in the world, and one of the most widely used. And they don't have a habit of lighting vegetation on fire in wooded environments like the Abrams. Perhaps but clearly you've never driven on a Quebec highway. That being said, as a pure souche quebecer, gently caress this nonsense.
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Sep 11, 2013 02:00
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The Court's ruling didn't create any new law. It just restated that the Constitution offers no right to plead in French in an English province, and it's not up to the Court to act in the legislature's place. The reason is because there aren't enough francophones to be worth the government spending money on bilingual workers in the justice system. It's the same reason I can't walk into a Canada Post in Chibougamou and demand service in English. Got any more "we might be really racist but you're kind of racist" canards for us? flakeloaf fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Sep 11, 2013 |
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Sep 11, 2013 02:02
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Poizen Jam posted:It's almost like flagrant violations of rights are a pretty big deal, yeah. I harbour no ill will towards francophone Quebecers whatsoever, but this act is deplorable, as are those who support it. I'd support pretty extensive federal measures to intervene with what is essentially a large scale exile of non-Christian public sector workers. Tanks are hyperbole, but I'd hardly suggest heavy handed federalist intervention would be uncalled for when it comes to institutionalized racism and religious bigotry within Canada's borders. If the Quebec courts don't solve this, Canada should do what it needs to. Institutionalised racism and bigotry is (or can be, with use of the notwithstanding clause) perfectly constitutional within Canada's borders. Nothing gives Canada the legal or moral right to intervene once Québec has made up its mind on this, and any attempt to do so would alienate Québec, not help. Québec has laws on the books with semi-constitutional status which would strike this charter down very quickly and effectively. No need for federal intervention.
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Sep 11, 2013 02:05
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flakeloaf posted:The Court's ruling didn't create any new law. It just restated that the Constitution offers no right to plead in French in an English province, and it's not up to the Court to act in the legislature's place. The reason is because there aren't enough francophones to be worth the government spending money on bilingual workers in the justice system. If the Court can't/won't/shouldn't interact in provincial rulings, why does it intervene so often when it comes to language laws in Quebec? I don't know why you say "We" when I told you I was against the Charter, but good job painting a whole province with a broad stroke, I guess.
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Sep 11, 2013 02:14
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firewalker posted:I'm all for denouncing the charter and raking the PQ over the coals for it, but what some of you guys are saying just shows how you hate Quebec. The ingrained Quebec hate has been steadily bubbling to the top in the last few days. This thread is absolutely non-inclusive to Quebecois and just reinforced the feeling that i had that most Canadian see English speakers as real Canadians and Quebecois are just "them". Honestly i don't have a problem with it since we're actually a different nation with an abusive step dad that wont let us leave.
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Sep 11, 2013 02:19
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Every region in canada hates and makes fun of the others, get off your tiny charter-approved sized cross.
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Sep 11, 2013 02:22
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Baronjutter posted:Every region in canada hates and makes fun of the others, get off your tiny charter-approved sized cross. Sorry but you're simply fundamentally wrong. Any history book will prove you otherwise. No province has been abused to the level that we have. This is not a "but we do it to all the others too!" case. edit: Also i think the charter is a very dumb idea.
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Sep 11, 2013 02:23
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^^No, this is a "You did it to us so now it's our turn". That's way worse. e: wrong charter flakeloaf fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Sep 11, 2013 |
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Sep 11, 2013 02:28
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flakeloaf posted:^^No, this is a "You did it to us so now it's our turn". That's way worse. Really cmon, as much as i hate the charter its not even on the same paradigm level to what has been done in the past. It's a slightly controversial issue that has been blown out of proportion and added to the Quebec bashing ammo stack. I have no idea what you mean there at the end. I would honestly answer, but what you said makes no sense.
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Sep 11, 2013 02:33
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Moving away from Quebec-chat for a moment, I had this gem pop up in my newsfeed today. Anybody want to guess who was in the lead in this poll?
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Sep 11, 2013 02:36
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Wrong charter.
flakeloaf fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Sep 11, 2013 |
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Sep 11, 2013 02:38
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The main problem with the charter i think, is that it attempt to secularize the individuals instead of the institutions. ex: I don't care if a teacher wears a turban or any other religious symbol (weapons notwithstanding) as long as he doesn't teach his religion or religious point of view. The charter is a broad stroke in a world that requires subtle details.
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Sep 11, 2013 02:40
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Guys, shut the gently caress up about quebec. They're a national treasure as long as i can get trashed on st ambroise and eat my face out at au pied du cochon. Let's start complainging about fracking or something
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Sep 11, 2013 02:41
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Christy Clark cancelled the fall legislative sitting, again. I think that means 2013 will clock in at about 30 days of MLAs sitting total. Apparently you can't do things like "create laws" or "run the government" from Victoria, although we're still going to pay about $70 million to keep the building that nobody uses open all year, and god knows what in salaries. Thank goodness we gave Christy a mandate to sit around in
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Sep 11, 2013 02:42
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flakeloaf posted:^^No, this is a "You did it to us so now it's our turn". That's way worse. I meant I am against the "charte de la laïcité" proposed by the PQ. Of course I'm not against freedom of religion.
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Sep 11, 2013 02:44
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Are some people confusing discussion on the Quebec Charter of Values and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms?
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Sep 11, 2013 02:44
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Normy posted:Are some people confusing discussion on the Quebec Charter of Values and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms? It sure seems like it. I guess we should use its full name to avoid confusion from now on.
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Sep 11, 2013 02:45
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firewalker posted:I meant I am against the "charte de la laïcité" proposed by the PQ. Of course I'm not against freedom of religion. Sorry, entirely my mistake. I should've clarified. You're an advocate for Quebec, not a complete idiot 
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Sep 11, 2013 02:48
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I'm pretty sure that you'll all have to qualify which charter you're talking about in all circumstances, now that you're throwing multiple charters into the conversation. There's the current Charter of Québécois Values, the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and then there's the original charter the Restofcanadians copied from the Quebec Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms. The CQV is poo poo anyways. France-styled secularity can work, but this isn't it. If a Jewish person can't wear a skullcap, but a Raëlian can wear their swastika star of David necklace because it isn't classified as conspicuous, then the proposed law is hosed.
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Sep 11, 2013 02:49
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Coylter posted:Really cmon, as much as i hate the charter its not even on the same paradigm level to what has been done in the past. It's a slightly controversial issue that has been blown out of proportion and added to the Quebec bashing ammo stack. Slightly controversial? My family can't get a job in Quebec because of this charter. Being forced to leave because of a bunch of xenophobic bigots got elected isn't slightly controversial.
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Sep 11, 2013 03:06
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We live in a state with an ongoing Truth and Reconciliation Commission examining the abuses of that state under a program designed to get problematic minorities to behave "unobtrusively" (ie more like white Christians). The Dept of Indian Affairs is a colonial monstronsity that until two decades ago was enacting a policy designed by a genocidal maniac who said this about it:Duncan Campbell Scott posted:I want to get rid of the Indian problem. I do not think as a matter of fact, that the country ought to continuously protect a class of people who are able to stand alone… Our objective is to continue until there is not a single Indian in Canada that has not been absorbed into the body politic and there is no Indian question, and no Indian Department, that is the whole object of this Bill. I'd say it's hardly unreasonable to be alarmed that other parts of the Canadian state apparatus are being employed to much the same ends against other groups now with apparently broad-based support, what, 5 years out from the apology for residential schooling?
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Sep 11, 2013 03:27
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That, in addition to the just general lovely white supremacy that still suffuses most of our society. We may not have the same kind of hardcore nativist that the US does, or at least not to the same numbers, but Canadian society is still racist in myriad more subtle ways, pining for immigrants to assimilate being the most obvious.
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Sep 11, 2013 03:41
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Kintarooooo posted:France-styled secularity can work, but this isn't it. Where does France-style secularity work? Certainly not in France.
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Sep 11, 2013 03:43
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Coylter posted:The ingrained Quebec hate has been steadily bubbling to the top in the last few days. This thread is absolutely non-inclusive to Quebecois and just reinforced the feeling that i had that most Canadian see English speakers as real Canadians and Quebecois are just "them". Honestly i don't have a problem with it since we're actually a different nation with an abusive step dad that wont let us leave. Did I miss the referendum where the Yes side won?
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Sep 11, 2013 03:45
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Cordyceps Headache posted:That, in addition to the just general lovely white supremacy that still suffuses most of our society. We may not have the same kind of hardcore nativist that the US does, or at least not to the same numbers, but Canadian society is still racist in myriad more subtle ways, pining for immigrants to assimilate being the most obvious. Doesn't sound like a very distinct society to me.
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Sep 11, 2013 03:47
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St. Dogbert posted:Did I miss the referendum where the Yes side won? Maybe you missed the sponsorship scandal?
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Sep 11, 2013 03:49
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Quebec is awesome. Just like the rest of Canada. Even you, Alberta. Even if most of the people in my life that I hated here in Ontario moved to your province. When Humans Right Watch claimed that the RCMP had a dysfunctional relationship with British Columbia natives, and they were pretty much right, we didn't condemn British Columbia. We condemned the fucktards in the RCMP. Same applies here. Stop blaming an entire geographical area and put the blame on the dipshits that deserve it. You pretty much lose all credibility the moment you act like you know what every Quebecois feels about this issue. You don't. Get hosed.
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Sep 11, 2013 03:53
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edit: Whooops, this is D&D, cheerleading isn't allowed here.
flakeloaf fucked around with this message at 03:58 on Sep 11, 2013 |
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Sep 11, 2013 03:54
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Paper Jam Dipper posted:Quebec is awesome. Just like the rest of Canada. Even you, Alberta. Even if most of the people in my life that I hated here in Ontario moved to your province. Are you responding to someone in particular? It's not clear how the RCMP is analgous in any way to the elected representatives of a group of people and their supporters in that group.
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Sep 11, 2013 04:04
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I think it was a general comment about people from Quebec ripping on people not from Quebec and vice versa when what we should be saying is "I love this country, but gently caress do I hate this country".
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Sep 11, 2013 04:08
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