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Hogan also had a large piece (I think a quarter) of not just all Hogan merchandise but all non-wrestler specific nWo merchandise. Suffice it to say, he had eight figure years in both WWF and WCW.
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Sep 11, 2013 18:12
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I just have to comment on this whole Sting issue. Looking back; in the summer of '97 I was a young teen mark getting back into wrestling after a hiatus and discovering WCW, as well as ECW and other promotions. So, I was introduced to Sting and Mankind at the same time, without any prior knowledge of either one of them. Sting was obviously a Crow ripoff, but I love the Crow, and that instantly made he a mark for him. Foley was Mankind and Dude Love and I honestly thought he was poo poo. I didn't get Mankind at all, he wasn't athletic but for some reason was dressed in brown which really made him look terrible, and that ankh on his back was inexplicable. Dude Love was just awful. Sting wasn't original, but at least he had 'the look', and I was his target audience. As time went on, Foley proved how good he was, and by that I mean he knew how to do good business. How many bumps to take, how to sell gimmicks, how to cut promos and then move on to mainstream outlets, such as writing books. Sting found Jesus and later on Dixie. I feel bad for Sting, and I think he keeps getting hate mostly because of his TNA career. And about the merchandise. As soon as I discovered WCW, I couldn't believe how awful their merch was; visuals in general, when compared to the WWF. And this was a Time Warner company! Their only decent shirt was the nWo one. DDP was way over and I remember being shocked at how awful his (1997) shirt was. They slightly improved in '98. So many missed opportunities there. My fantasy booking at that time was have Raven as the top heel and have him wear comic book styled Raven shirts, fighting against face Jericho with a Sunset Strip glam metal gimmick.
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Sep 11, 2013 18:55
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Joker Sting alone is enough reason to never let Sting anywhere near any hall of fame.
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Sep 11, 2013 19:19
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I wonder how Sting's legacy would look if he was a stronger talker. I think a lot of what sours people on him is his "IT'S SHOWTIME FOLKS" corny poo poo.
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Sep 11, 2013 19:55
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Stings finest moment was calling himself a great white shark and then chomping at the camera.
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Sep 11, 2013 20:02
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Eat My Fuc posted:Joker Sting alone is enough reason to never let Sting anywhere near any hall of fame. I know wrestling is full of guys whose gimmicks are basically rip-offs of movie and television characters, but Joker Sting was something else. There was literally no aspect of it that wasn't lifted directly from the Dark Knight. He even kept quoting lines from the movie verbatim during promos where they so obviously didn't fit. It was incredibly sad to watch, and it makes his whole Crow gimmick look that much worse because it shows that he doesn't have an ounce of creativity and just watches movies and says "I'll just do that!" At least both his well-known gimmicks being stolen from dead people means he wouldn't hear them complain.
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Sep 11, 2013 20:08
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Pope Corky the IX posted:There was literally no aspect of it that wasn't lifted directly from the Dark Knight. Whoa now, let's be fair to Sting, there were also aspects lifted directly from The Mask. e: I was being only sort of serious there but upon checking Youtube holy poo poo Solomonic fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Sep 11, 2013 |
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Sep 11, 2013 20:10
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Sting is really not a Hall of Fame level talent. He's about the equivalent of Kane - he had a long career with a recognizable look, a few good matches, a few memorable angles, but not a guy you would ever want to build the company around. He was only considered the face of WCW because he never left, and WCW always seemed to replace him as the top babyface whenever they had the chance.
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Sep 11, 2013 20:12
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jeffersonlives posted:That's fair, but Sting's only main event program that didn't bomb was with Hogan, who was back in a period where he would draw well regardless. How successful was his early '90s program with Flair when he won the World title for the first time? I know absolutely nothing about any relevant business figures like attendance, buyrates, and tv ratings for early '90s WCW, but it seemed like a pretty big deal at the time and kids at my grade school were talkng about it even though we were all primarily WWF fans.
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Sep 11, 2013 20:14
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Pope Corky the IX posted:At least both his well-known gimmicks being stolen from dead people means he wouldn't hear them complain. Ha, I never noticed that, but yeah his gimmicks are all based on guys who died during production of a film. Maybe if Sting lets himself go, he can adopt a James Harlow gimmick based on John Candy in Wagons East. Or oh! Didn't Bela Lugosi die during Plan 9 from Outer Space?
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Sep 11, 2013 20:21
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To be fair to Sting, he stole joker sting from a guy on the indies who did a tryout for them who stole it from the movies.
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Sep 11, 2013 20:22
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Thauros posted:How successful was his early '90s program with Flair when he won the World title for the first time? Extremely unsuccessful. The 1989 Starrcade with the round-robin tournament featuring Sting/Flair as the main event that basically kicked off the angle tanked. The 1990 Great American Bash with Sting's big eight month built return for the title did significantly worse than the 1989 Bash that had Flair/Funk and basically the same as the early-mid 1990 Flair/Luger filler feud which was an emergency fill-in while Sting was hurt, and was the third or fourth rehash of that program. Sting as champion continued to bomb (Black Scorpion forever), and they were so afraid to run the last Sting/Flair title change back to Flair as an advertised title match that they didn't even do it on a Clash, let alone a PPV, just an untelevised house show.
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Sep 11, 2013 20:23
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So, Sting actually failed at several major angles? Was this why WCW was so eager to bring in Hogan and Macho? And why did they fire Vader? Was there ever an option of Sting jumping to the WWF? I mean, Foley, Vader, Austin, Pillman - they were all WCW guys who were let go, and went to the WWF. What if Sting showed up in the WWF and formed a stable with other ex-WCW guys? The two companies traded players throughout the 90s, even announcers - Schiavone was in the WWF, Ross was in WCW. And the general opinion today is that if you went from WCW to the WWF, you did good.
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Sep 11, 2013 20:35
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If I remember correctly, the most common reason given for why Sting never went to the WWF/E is because of the offensive nature of the Attitude and then the Ruthless Aggression eras, and he's been a Jesus fellow for quite a while. Of course, that makes him look like a disingenuous hypocritical idiot considering he stuck around during Russo-era WCW, then joined TNA when they had poo poo going on that was more offensive than almost anything WWF/E had ever done.
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Sep 11, 2013 20:43
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Rad R. posted:So, Sting actually failed at several major angles? Was this why WCW was so eager to bring in Hogan and Macho? And why did they fire Vader? Was there ever an option of Sting jumping to the WWF? I mean, Foley, Vader, Austin, Pillman - they were all WCW guys who were let go, and went to the WWF. What if Sting showed up in the WWF and formed a stable with other ex-WCW guys? The two companies traded players throughout the 90s, even announcers - Schiavone was in the WWF, Ross was in WCW. And the general opinion today is that if you went from WCW to the WWF, you did good. They brought in Hogan and Savage and friends because business was horrible, which, sure, failure to develop Sting into a legitimate headliner was a real part of that. They fired Vader because he didn't work well within the confines of post-Hogan WCW.
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Sep 11, 2013 20:45
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jeffersonlives posted:They brought in Hogan and Savage and friends because business was horrible, which, sure, failure to develop Sting into a legitimate headliner was a real part of that. They fired Vader because he didn't work well within the confines of post-Hogan WCW. Didn't they fire a lot of talent because they didn't fit with post-Hogan WCW? At least Vader got a feud with Hogan where Hogan no sold a powerbomb.
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Sep 11, 2013 21:01
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jeffersonlives posted:Extremely unsuccessful. Huh, interesting. That was the angle that got me into WCW and I even enjoyed the infamous Black Scorpion angle. Of course, the opinion of a small child who never saw PPVs until they hit VHS rental stores and lived in an area the WWF was much more likely to tour in wasn't exactly going to mean much.
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Sep 11, 2013 21:05
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I thought Vader was fired because of the dust-up he had with Orndorff, who allegedly dropped Vader with one punch while wearing shower shoes. EDIT: Speaking of Orndorff, does anyone know a timeline who the agents were in WCW? I remember in Bret's book he said that besides Orndorff and Dusty, none of their agents had ever drawn a dime or done anything in wrestling. I also remember hearing about Jake Robert's dad being an agent in the early 90s.
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Sep 11, 2013 21:17
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This is a legit question - is Hulk Hogan the biggest draw in the history of professional wrestling? People always claim that Austin drew the most (i.e. on top during the hottest period) but it was for a very limited time. Is it someone from Japan that sold out a ton of Dome shows? Does the Rock count considering he has movies making close to a billion dollars? edit - this question is here since all the guys I'm talking about participated in the Monday Night Wars and there has been lots of drawing discussion going on here. ColonelJohnMatrix fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Sep 11, 2013 |
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Sep 11, 2013 21:17
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ColonelJohnMatrix posted:This is a legit question - is Hulk Hogan the biggest draw in the history of professional wrestling? People always claim that Austin drew the most (i.e. on top during the hottest period) but it was for a very limited time. Is it someone from Japan that sold out a ton of Dome shows? Does the Rock count considering he is moving making close to a billion dollars? I think it's probably Austin but it's the type of question you could write an entire book on, really.
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Sep 11, 2013 21:23
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ColonelJohnMatrix posted:This is a legit question - is Hulk Hogan the biggest draw in the history of professional wrestling? People always claim that Austin drew the most (i.e. on top during the hottest period) but it was for a very limited time. Is it someone from Japan that sold out a ton of Dome shows? Does the Rock count considering he has movies making close to a billion dollars? I think Bruno Sammartino officially drew the most money, but Hogan is a close #2.
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Sep 11, 2013 21:28
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I don't think it's something that can be conclusively decided because the concept of what it means to be a draw has changed so much over the years, and isn't very concrete to begin with. People around here used to make fun of Bruno when he'd argue that he was a bigger draw than anyone past or present, but his frame of reference comes from a period before merchandising and pay-per-views and weekly live television shows.
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Sep 11, 2013 21:37
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Yeah, it's really tough to compare drawing ability across different eras since the methods a wrestling company makes money have changed so much over the years. You could probably make a really good case for Austin at his peak for being the #1 all time draw, but his peak was much shorter than Hogan's or Bruno's.
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Sep 11, 2013 21:47
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VogeGandire posted:I think Bruno Sammartino officially drew the most money, but Hogan is a close #2. There's no way this is true just because there were fewer revenue streams in that day. As a live draw he's almost unparalleled, but without PPV, merchandising, etc his raw money is much much lower. Austin drew more and made the most as his peak, but he had fewer years at the top. He also didn't help kill a company, and maybe two. Hell, maybe four or five depending how you look at things. Vader was suspended and then fired for the fight. He started the fight, lost it, then tried to start it again by jumping Mr. Wonderful from behind. He was depushed prior to that, but he got fired for being a stupid failure of a bully.
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Sep 11, 2013 21:47
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I might be stupid for saying this since you guys know the business way better than I do, but I'd think Cena would have to enter the conversation at some point too if only because of his longevity.
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Sep 11, 2013 22:08
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Schlitzkrieg Bop posted:I might be stupid for saying this since you guys know the business way better than I do, but I'd think Cena would have to enter the conversation at some point too if only because of his longevity. He's arguably in the next group down, but no, he's not anywhere close to Hogan or Austin even if you're as generous to Cena as you can be, and if you want to penalize guys for being on top during a decline phase, well, most of Cena's time on top has been a steady decline phase.
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Sep 11, 2013 22:12
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Schlitzkrieg Bop posted:I might be stupid for saying this since you guys know the business way better than I do, but I'd think Cena would have to enter the conversation at some point too if only because of his longevity. It's hard to say, he has five million buy PPVs under his belt right now, one was drawn by Batista and HHH mainly, another by Trump and Vince and his last three mainly by the Rock, but he needs to get a lot of credit there too. Business fell under his watch, but is rebounding now and was hot (by the standards of the day) as his run began.
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Sep 11, 2013 22:19
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I can't speak to whether or not Sting belongs in any real hall of fame, but he definitely belongs in the WWE hall of fame.
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Sep 11, 2013 22:24
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I'd argue the Rock needs to be in that upper echelon since it was he who had to pick up the slack when Austin went on the shelf and WWE kept on soaring with him as top face.
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Sep 11, 2013 22:30
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ColonelJohnMatrix posted:I'd argue the Rock needs to be in that upper echelon since it was he who had to pick up the slack when Austin went on the shelf and WWE kept on soaring with him as top face. Not to mention he is far and away the biggest crossover star/pop culture mainstay in pro wrestling history. It's not even close.
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Sep 11, 2013 22:33
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SamuraiFoochs posted:Not to mention he is far and away the biggest crossover star/pop culture mainstay in pro wrestling history. It's not even close. You see, there's this guy named El Santo... Red posted:
Hell no. Sting is at least one (more likely more than one) tier below Cena in terms of being a draw. ChampRamp fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Sep 11, 2013 |
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Sep 11, 2013 22:34
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SAVE_US.CHR
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jeffersonlives posted:He's arguably in the next group down, but no, he's not anywhere close to Hogan or Austin even if you're as generous to Cena as you can be, and if you want to penalize guys for being on top during a decline phase, well, most of Cena's time on top has been a steady decline phase.  Is Cena WWF's Sting?
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Sep 11, 2013 22:35
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ChampRamp posted:You see, there's this guy named El Santo... And Rikidozan.
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Sep 11, 2013 22:36
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Red posted:
Sting was an outright failure on top, Cena has been a long term moneymaker, it just tapered off for a couple years.
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Sep 11, 2013 22:37
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Red posted:
Did Sting ever sell t-shirts? I can't even think of any Sting merchandise.
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Sep 11, 2013 22:37
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pathetic little tramp posted:Did Sting ever sell t-shirts? I can't even think of any Sting merchandise. Sting masks.
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Sep 11, 2013 22:41
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Red posted:
No, no, Cena's actually drawn over the course of his career and generally has a positive effect on business compared to his peers (which is the entire point with Sting - he really didn't). It's just that I have a really hard time saying Cena is at a Hogan or Austin level because he's never been on top for anything resembling the kind of peak years that they have had, and really only even has one peak program on a really high level (with Rock, obviously). There's certainly a peak vs. longevity argument somewhere in here, but Cena doesn't even have as many major promotion on top years as Hogan in sum yet.
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Sep 11, 2013 22:43
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pathetic little tramp posted:Did Sting ever sell t-shirts? I can't even think of any Sting merchandise. Sting had t-shirts, but they were never iconic and often really bad "superstar photo" shirts that never really sell much except for kids. He had no iconic catchphrase that they could use, and in fact theres an argument that "it's showtime" was a lucklaster attempt to cash in on it. His action figures sold pretty well though. So much so that they were often paired up with Hogan in dual blisters, particularly when Hogan's toy sales dropped.
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Sep 11, 2013 22:46
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ChampRamp posted:You see, there's this guy named El Santo... MassRafTer posted:And Rikidozan. Sorry, should've specified America. 
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Sep 11, 2013 22:47
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Skinty McEdger posted:Sting had t-shirts, but they were never iconic and often really bad "superstar photo" shirts that never really sell much except for kids. He had no iconic catchphrase that they could use, and in fact theres an argument that "it's showtime" was a lucklaster attempt to cash in on it. There was a simple scorpion shirt that sold fairly well after the nWo started, I think.
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Sep 11, 2013 23:03
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