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For HH short story collections: Tales of Heresy has two genuinely good stories: One by Dan Abnett, concerning the Custodes, and by Matthew Farrer, concerning Angron and Kharn. The Last Church by Graham McNeill is incredibly polarizing, but I like it. It's about the Emperor trolling a priest, with a bunch of Unification Wars history thrown in. Shadows of Treachery I liked, too. The Crimson Fist is a competent novella, while Prince of Crows is excellent. The rest were BL Weekender exclusives or something. Don't know about Age of Darkness. I'm interested in the one about Horus Aximand, wonder what became of him after the Heresy.
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Sep 17, 2013 02:38
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Having read this thread for a while, I think either I or some other people are not understanding The Last Church. I thought it made the priest to be more sympathetic than the Emperor, with the priest's arguements for the common human need for something more being eventually proven correct by the Emperor's eventual status of being worshipped. The Emperor is right in the short term (the rock isn't supernatural) but proven wrong in the long term (the Imperial Truth isn't spiritually fulfilling.) Mostly, I like the Last Church for its uniqueness. It's the earliest story chronologically, I think, and the Emperor is treated as a destroyer of human culture, rather than humanity's saviour. William Bear fucked around with this message at 02:53 on Sep 17, 2013 |
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Sep 17, 2013 02:50
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Yeah that's the read I got on it too. For the most part the Emperor is too big to be sympathetic, but Malcador, now... I love Malcador's appearances. Especially the Sigilite, as its so different from other 40k fiction.
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Sep 17, 2013 03:04
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The problem most people have with The Last Church is that the Emperor is an atheist mouthpiece. Granted, it's not really didactic.
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Sep 17, 2013 03:20
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Schneider Heim posted:The problem most people have with The Last Church is that the Emperor is an atheist mouthpiece. Granted, it's not really didactic. Well more specifically he's a pretty poorly written mouthpiece for a badly articulated form of atheism, and the whole discussion is done in a really hamfisted way. Which is kind of out of character considering he may actually have been the historical Jesus and many other holy men as part of his secretive actions to guide humanity's development, and should know better. The problem is, of course, that ultimately he's only going to be as smart as the author, and McNeill even on his occasional good days isn't what you'd call a subtle or nuanced writer.
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Sep 17, 2013 03:26
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One of my favorite things about Inquisition War so far is the use of actual Latin for the invocation of the Emperor's protection and to guard against chaos. Having a character struggling with the temptation of a seductive voice in their head finally realizing what it is and shouting Latin invocations they've heard from priests to try and strengthen their will and refuse the corruption emphasizes the dogmatic nature of the Imperium. I'm surprised Games Workshop never made that a major fluff point. Having Latin as the lingua franca of Inquisitors and empowering the resistance of the faithful really adds a special touch to the dark, theocratic nature of the 40k Imperium. Watson even mentioned he went the distance and included correct Latin in his writings for that extra impact and to emphasize the importance of how belief and litanies of faith have actual power in the W40k universe.
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Sep 17, 2013 07:58
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Nephilm posted:That's the thing, McNeil already wrote A Thousand Sons, so I don't expect him to write anything good in the HH series anymore - quota met and all that. Angel Exterminatus is worth reading.
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Sep 17, 2013 09:52
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pentyne posted:One of my favorite things about Inquisition War so far is the use of actual Latin for the invocation of the Emperor's protection and to guard against chaos. Having a character struggling with the temptation of a seductive voice in their head finally realizing what it is and shouting Latin invocations they've heard from priests to try and strengthen their will and refuse the corruption emphasizes the dogmatic nature of the Imperium. If I had to take a guess, I'd say it's because they really don't waant to get on the radar of pissy catholic groups. They're always dancing close to the line, but them including actual latin/church dogma would probably be used as a "They're portraying Catholics as evil and Nazi's" talking point.
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Sep 17, 2013 15:00
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bunnyofdoom posted:If I had to take a guess, I'd say it's because they really don't waant to get on the radar of pissy catholic groups. They're always dancing close to the line, but them including actual latin/church dogma would probably be used as a "They're portraying Catholics as evil and Nazi's" talking point. Uh probably more like it's not worth the trouble to put in a bunch of latin unless the writer already knows it and even then the effect would be minimal since it's mostly unintelligible to the vast majority of their readers, who are more likely to be 13 year olds and manchildren versus classics majors and theologians.
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Sep 17, 2013 15:05
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Cream_Filling posted:Well more specifically he's a pretty poorly written mouthpiece for a badly articulated form of atheism, and the whole discussion is done in a really hamfisted way. Which is kind of out of character considering he may actually have been the historical Jesus and many other holy men as part of his secretive actions to guide humanity's development, and should know better. The problem is, of course, that ultimately he's only going to be as smart as the author, and McNeill even on his occasional good days isn't what you'd call a subtle or nuanced writer. This, a thousand times this. It was awful.
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Sep 17, 2013 15:21
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Cream_Filling posted:Uh probably more like it's not worth the trouble to put in a bunch of latin unless the writer already knows it and even then the effect would be minimal since it's mostly unintelligible to the vast majority of their readers, who are more likely to be 13 year olds and manchildren versus classics majors and theologians.
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Sep 17, 2013 16:40
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Arquinsiel posted:You'd think that, but some authors (like Watson) went to a great deal of effort to get the various language bits correct. I remember a generally accepted fan theory that "High Gothic" was Latin, "Mid Gothic" was German and "Low Gothic" was English back when these things were ever mentioned. I feel like either a Ghost's book or a Cain novel still mentioned the language divisions.
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Sep 17, 2013 16:42
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bunnyofdoom posted:I feel like either a Ghost's book or a Cain novel still mentioned the language divisions.
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Sep 17, 2013 16:46
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Arquinsiel posted:You'd think that, but some authors (like Watson) went to a great deal of effort to get the various language bits correct. I remember a generally accepted fan theory that "High Gothic" was Latin, "Mid Gothic" was German and "Low Gothic" was English back when these things were ever mentioned.
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Sep 17, 2013 16:49
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Arquinsiel posted:"High" and "Low" turn up a bit, IIRC that Gaunt speaks High helped him with the Nihtgane on Gereon (who are actually just speaking English in a Welsh accent with some celtic-ish slang thrown in, so it made perfect sense to me vOv). Nope. It's Mk'venner, and they speak a language similar to the Nalsheen on Tannith.
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Sep 17, 2013 16:50
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I like to believe that every language in 40k, irrespective of race, is a UK regional dialect.
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Sep 17, 2013 16:52
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Rapey Joe Stalin posted:I like to believe that every language in 40k, irrespective of race, is a UK regional dialect. Cadia is just a Canadian accent pretending to be British. (Which, trust me, is depressingly a real thing I've noticed in Ottawa sometimes.)
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Sep 17, 2013 16:53
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bunnyofdoom posted:Nope. It's Mk'venner, and they speak a language similar to the Nalsheen on Tannith.
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Sep 17, 2013 16:55
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Arquinsiel posted:You'd think that, but some authors (like Watson) went to a great deal of effort to get the various language bits correct. I remember a generally accepted fan theory that "High Gothic" was Latin, "Mid Gothic" was German and "Low Gothic" was English back when these things were ever mentioned. I forget who but one of the early GW guys knew latin, which made it easier to have proper latin in the early years. Watson himself probably has some limited latin education or else had that guy or a friend to consult with. The official convention even now is that High Gothic is rendered as latin (or more commonly fake latin) and Low Gothic as english. However, the idea that more latin isn't put in modern 40k because of fears it would offend Catholics is kind of ridiculous. It's mostly because most people wouldn't understand it, and also because translating the already convoluted and made-up diction of 40k into latin would be a nightmare so even actual latin speakers would have a ton of trouble comprehending it (there's no latin for "bolter" and basic in-universe terms like "astartes" are pseudo-latin gibberish, added on to the typical translation problems). It would work fine as a thematic thing to establish atmosphere, but let's be honest here the majority of 40k fiction isn't particularly concerned with that sort of thing.
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Sep 17, 2013 17:00
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Arquinsiel posted:"High" and "Low" turn up a bit, IIRC that Gaunt speaks High helped him with the Nihtgane on Gereon (who are actually just speaking English in a Welsh accent with some celtic-ish slang thrown in, so it made perfect sense to me vOv). I believe that was called "proto-Gothic" and I thought it was depicted as a mangled version of middle english.
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Sep 17, 2013 17:03
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William Bear posted:Having read this thread for a while, I think either I or some other people are not understanding The Last Church. I thought it made the priest to be more sympathetic than the Emperor, with the priest's arguements for the common human need for something more being eventually proven correct by the Emperor's eventual status of being worshipped. The Emperor is right in the short term (the rock isn't supernatural) but proven wrong in the long term (the Imperial Truth isn't spiritually fulfilling.) Isn't this the exact same reasoning why Lorgar turned to chaos?
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Sep 17, 2013 17:09
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"Astarte" is the Greek name of a Mesopotamian goddess of war. It kind of makes sense. I had a lot of fun translating stuff back in my school day. What else was I going to do with six years of Latin?
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Sep 17, 2013 17:13
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Arquinsiel posted:"Astarte" is the Greek name of a Mesopotamian goddess of war. It kind of makes sense. I had a lot of fun translating stuff back in my school day. What else was I going to do with six years of Latin? I assumed it was meant to be some sort of mix between that and a corruption of astrum (I'd guess the proper form is astris?) or whatever because even your average english speaker knows that word. Also, what's up mostly useless latin classes buddy?
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Sep 17, 2013 17:27
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Perfect time to ask: How exactly am I supposed to say "Arbite"? I keep going back and forth between ar-bite and ar-be-tay when I read. But not at all sure if either's right.
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Sep 17, 2013 18:00
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Lead Psychiatry posted:Perfect time to ask: How exactly am I supposed to say "Arbite"? I keep going back and forth between ar-bite and ar-be-tay when I read. But not at all sure if either's right. 99% sure it's "ar-bit-tay".
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Sep 17, 2013 18:41
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Arbeit is a German word and is pronounced "ahr-bahyt" But in 40k I think it is "ar-bit-tay" I believe most 40k stuff is kind of Roman sounding as the fluff is influenced by Ancient Rome. (but I am not totally sure and could be talking crap)
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Sep 17, 2013 19:18
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Lead Psychiatry posted:Perfect time to ask: How exactly am I supposed to say "Arbite"? I keep going back and forth between ar-bite and ar-be-tay when I read. But not at all sure if either's right.
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Sep 17, 2013 19:18
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CreepyGuy9000 posted:Arbeit is a German word and is pronounced "ahr-bahyt" The german arbeit and the latin arbiter are written pretty similarly but seem to have different roots. Arbeit means 'work' in German and probably proto-germanic, while the latin arbiter means witness or judge in latin. Considering that the Arbites are a thinly veiled copy of the Judges in Judge Dredd, the latinate pronunciation makes more sense.
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Sep 17, 2013 19:25
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Arquinsiel posted:Same way you say it in English :P Arghrhgr I even told myself to correct that and put in "pronounce" but I got distracted. Now I got the idea of saying it with a Boston accent and how that'd probably get a future Imperial knocked out for trying out a Hey Abbott routine.
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Sep 17, 2013 19:51
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I believe that "Astartes" is a mangled version of "astrum" or "astri" which means star or constellation. "Adeptus" pretty much means "to take" or "to obtain," so in the faux Latin of 40K, you're likely looking at a schoolboy writing "The takers of the stars." In other words, the Emperor never paid attention when he was living during the Roman era.
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Sep 17, 2013 20:13
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Just finished the First Heretic, which is a very good book. Having read Betrayer before it, it's a bit of a shock to see just how much Lorgar changes, and why. Still curious about what it was that caused the first rift between Argel Tal and Erebus, though. It wasn't clarified in the story.
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Sep 17, 2013 20:32
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The cause is that Erebus is manipulative perineum who corrupted Lorgar and led the legion to a path of damnation.
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Sep 17, 2013 20:36
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You don't need a reason to hate Erebus, really. He's just such a dick. I do like that he gets pretty brutally owned at the end of books he appears in, even if he does escape.
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Sep 17, 2013 20:43
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berzerkmonkey posted:I believe that "Astartes" is a mangled version of "astrum" or "astri" which means star or constellation. "Adeptus" pretty much means "to take" or "to obtain," so in the faux Latin of 40K, you're likely looking at a schoolboy writing "The takers of the stars." In other words, the Emperor never paid attention when he was living during the Roman era. Adeptus in latin actually means means "one who has obtained" or "one who has achieved" and in its English form "adept" refers to someone who has achieved some measure of rank or skill in something but is not yet a master of it. Or a follower, underling, young student, etc. It's also probably a reference to the various 19th century occultist groups who used the term "adept" in that manner, who themselves took it from actual occultism or mysticism like alchemy, Kabbalah, various guilds, etc.. Of course, its still fake latin since "adeptus" is singular.
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Sep 17, 2013 20:47
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berzerkmonkey posted:I believe that "Astartes" is a mangled version of "astrum" or "astri" which means star or constellation. "Adeptus" pretty much means "to take" or "to obtain," so in the faux Latin of 40K, you're likely looking at a schoolboy writing "The takers of the stars." In other words, the Emperor never paid attention when he was living during the Roman era. It's probably an amalgamation of both the mangled Latin and the Mesopotamian goddess, both would seem pretty apt in any case
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Sep 17, 2013 20:52
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Nephilm posted:The cause is that Erebus is manipulative perineum who corrupted Lorgar and led the legion to a path of damnation. The thing is, I'm starting to respect Erebus. Hell, he had to work with an uncertain Primarch and a failed Legion to jump-start the heresy, which is no small feat. As for leading the way into damnation, it can be argued that he paved the way to enlightenment instead, as they -did- find the suppressed primordial truth and even people who despised the First Chaplain, like Argel Tal, accepted that it was true. I really wish he was more active in the present 40k universe. He does seem like a much more dangerous and realistic Imperium-ending super-villain than Abaddon.
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Sep 17, 2013 21:00
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Sephyr posted:
Too true - Abaddon was manipulated from the start whilst Erebus was the true instigator of galaxy-wide change.
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Sep 17, 2013 21:05
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Do we know what Erebus' motivations are? Or is he moustache twirling just cuz?
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Sep 17, 2013 21:25
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I always imagine that Erebus just accidentally falls into this plot of corrupting the Primarchs. It seems like he was just looking for a reason to go back to worshiping his old gods.
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Sep 17, 2013 21:45
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DirtyRobot posted:Do we know what Erebus' motivations are? Or is he moustache twirling just cuz? Moar Powa ! Power for himself is probably the real reason, but if he is a true follower of the dark gods then he is just doing it to create chaos in the galaxy. Unless of course Matthew Ward reveals that Erebus is a C'tan.
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Sep 17, 2013 21:51
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