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MrChips posted:In all honesty, the 911 vs. Corvette debate has been closer than it ever has been, and that can only be considered a good thing. I really don't think it's that close at all. Porsche has to roll out the S version with the PDK to even have a chance in the competition, and that just magnifies the massive price discrepancy between the two cars. That said, I love this brave new world we live in where a 911 wins in the quarter mile and a Corvette wins around the track.
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Sep 13, 2013 16:06
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Bajaha posted:Local dealership has this on the lot for $72,000, 2013 1500 Cargo Van 5.3 v8 4spd. Every time I drive by it makes me think the 80's Van craze is trying to make a comeback. Honestly, I kind of like it, it's got a weird presence when you see it in person. I grew up thinking conversion vans were too hideous to be redeemed by their other qualities, but honestly, that body style of GM van looks pretty drat good in conversion trim with the right wheels and they are seriously cool on the inside. Add to that the goodness of LS reliability and power and it means that conversion vans at some point actually stopped sucking. The one thing they've always lacked is a 3.0-4.0L diesel for cruise efficiency. If i thought i could get 24+ mpg hwy traveling in one of those bad boys i might already own one. I for one am very glad about the Sprinter based conversions because i think they dragged mpg expectations up for those types of vehicles.
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Sep 13, 2013 20:30
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Vigo327 posted:I grew up thinking conversion vans were too hideous to be redeemed by their other qualities, but honestly, that body style of GM van looks pretty drat good in conversion trim with the right wheels and they are seriously cool on the inside. Add to that the goodness of LS reliability and power and it means that conversion vans at some point actually stopped sucking. You can get a detuned 6.6 duramax in the 3/4 ton, of course at that point you lose the AWD but gain a whole lot more space. I got 22-23mpg in mine, loaded, and it was still rated at i think 265hp. edit: and that was an 06, with the 4 speed auto. I have no doubt that a newer one with the 6 speed could do 25mpg. Powershift fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Sep 13, 2013 |
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Sep 13, 2013 20:38
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Throatwarbler posted:
My dad and a bunch of his buddies all haul a lot of people and stuff; all were due for new trucks and none of them bought a GMT900 because of the seat thing.
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Sep 13, 2013 22:12
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Why can't GM just use the same exact front as the pickup trucks like they used to? Those new things are awful, but basically make a 2012 version one to buy in a few years as a camper/Home Depot hauler. I also don't understand why they don't modernize the goddamn stoner van and offer a cool camper version for $35k instead of that obnoxious thing that might as well have 24" dubbz on it along with its 30 y/o architecture. Here's some cool campers: http://www.sportsmobile.com/z-PO_calif.html Also: 911 vs. Vette is a weird comparison - they just seem so different target market wise, where the Vette is a violent faceripping beast and the 911 is more Marin county/Malibu highway cruiser. I would rather own a 5 year old 911 though, regardless of the potential apocalyptic bloodbath of costs. Keyser_Soze fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Sep 13, 2013 |
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Sep 13, 2013 22:21
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Vigo327 posted:I grew up thinking conversion vans were too hideous to be redeemed by their other qualities, but honestly, that body style of GM van looks pretty drat good in conversion trim with the right wheels and they are seriously cool on the inside. Add to that the goodness of LS reliability and power and it means that conversion vans at some point actually stopped sucking. The new Ram Promaster is going to be a Sprinter with a 3.0l I4 diesel. The only transmission available with the diesel is going to be a FIAT single clutch SMG type box. http://www.allpar.com/trucks/ram/ProMaster.html
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Sep 13, 2013 23:19
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The Promaster is some Fiat quasi-unibody FWD platform, not a Sprinter. Low rear floor, good fuel economy.
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Sep 13, 2013 23:29
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Snowdens Secret posted:The Promaster is some Fiat quasi-unibody FWD platform, not a Sprinter. Low rear floor, good fuel economy. Yes this sure is a unibody.  
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Sep 13, 2013 23:31
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Throatwarbler posted:Yes this sure is a unibody. That's the quasi part, they're calling it unibody with a reinforced floor or something like that, not me E: "unibody frame architecture"
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Sep 13, 2013 23:48
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I actually saw a nissan NV200 cargo van yesterday, its a decent looking little buggy. Would probably make an awesome little motorhome. It's surprising there is suddenly so much competition in the van market. It's gone from the E-series ruling over all the land in 2011 to 5 small cargo vans and 6 large cargo vans on the market. Out of all of them though, i think i would still take the 3.5 ecoboost transit. Slap a livernois tune on and go humiliate some civics at the drag strip. Powershift fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Sep 14, 2013 |
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Sep 14, 2013 00:41
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Throatwarbler posted:Yes this sure is a unibody. Its unrelated to the Sprinter though - its the PSA/FIAT large van platform.
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Sep 14, 2013 01:48
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I was going to post this in stupid questions, but since the news thread is a pseudo-industry thread, I thought I might get a better answer here. My wife asked me how much it costs a manufacturer to make a volume compact in relation to its retail price. Obviously the answer would be different for different kinds of cars, so just keeping the question to the Civics and Corollas and maybe Focii and Darts and Cruzes of the world. I have no idea, but I'm guessing the margins are pretty slim.
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Sep 14, 2013 04:33
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dissss posted:Its unrelated to the Sprinter though - its the PSA/FIAT large van platform. My dad drives the Peugeot version of this as a work van. Loads of space in the cabin, loads of storage compartments, clipboard built into the dash, decent ergonomics. It drives pretty good too, and he's only got a 2.2l 120hp diesel in there.
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Sep 14, 2013 08:25
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blk posted:I was going to post this in stupid questions, but since the news thread is a pseudo-industry thread, I thought I might get a better answer here. My wife asked me how much it costs a manufacturer to make a volume compact in relation to its retail price. Obviously the answer would be different for different kinds of cars, so just keeping the question to the Civics and Corollas and maybe Focii and Darts and Cruzes of the world. I have no idea, but I'm guessing the margins are pretty slim. I know that in Canada, GM lost on average about $1000 on every twin-airbag Cavalier they built from MY97-03. The margins are razor thin. Probably putting all this new fancy crap (sync, etc) in cars is a way of raising those margins.
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Sep 14, 2013 20:47
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blk posted:I was going to post this in stupid questions, but since the news thread is a pseudo-industry thread, I thought I might get a better answer here. My wife asked me how much it costs a manufacturer to make a volume compact in relation to its retail price. Obviously the answer would be different for different kinds of cars, so just keeping the question to the Civics and Corollas and maybe Focii and Darts and Cruzes of the world. I have no idea, but I'm guessing the margins are pretty slim. This information is massively out of date but around 2002 Honda made about 1300 bucks per base Civic off the line. That said by 2008 Honda had so much inventory and was losing so much money per car they idea lines 2 days a week. As far as my knowledge goes they either make less then 1500 per car or they lose money.
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Sep 17, 2013 16:08
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I've heard an analyst estimate for the variable margin on Ford trucks to be about $8000-10000, compared to an average pretax profit (in NA) of $2500 for all cars and trucks. So yeah those numbers sound about right.
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Sep 17, 2013 16:26
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They have to make most of their profit on those cars off parts. a car with a $15,000 sticker has $90,000 retail worth of parts on it.
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Sep 17, 2013 16:59
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On a base manual Kia soul or rio its maybe $1k in dealer profit if sold at sticker.
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Sep 17, 2013 19:18
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There's around 600 bucks or so in profit on a Mazda 3 at sticker
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Sep 17, 2013 20:36
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Nodoze posted:There's around 600 bucks or so in profit on a Mazda 3 at sticker between sticker and invoice or total dealer profit?
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Sep 17, 2013 20:49
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kill me now posted:between sticker and invoice or total dealer profit? Between Invoice and sticker
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Sep 17, 2013 21:41
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Nodoze posted:Between Invoice and sticker Invoice isn't really invoice anymore though, right? Don't dealers get holdback, dealer-only incentives, and spiffs still?
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Sep 17, 2013 21:55
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Yes they do, gotta have something to keep the lights on when every douchebag through the door expects to be a few hundred under invoice for some stupid reason. and for reference there is $200 between sticker and invoice on a manual soul or rio for Kia
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Sep 17, 2013 22:17
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kill me now posted:Yes they do, gotta have something to keep the lights on when every douchebag through the door expects to be a few hundred under invoice for some stupid reason. Don't they do this by flat out raping most people on their trade in? I really do hate negotiating on the prices of things though. Everyone just needs to go to no haggle prices like Scion and be done with it.
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Sep 17, 2013 23:08
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fknlo posted:Don't they do this by flat out raping most people on their trade in? So they can be even more aggressive about raping you on the trade-in?
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Sep 17, 2013 23:10
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I think just single price haggling would be fine. Rather than breaking it into a thousand components and turning the whole processing into an ordeal as the salesman tries to methodically pull one over on you at every turn.
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Sep 17, 2013 23:10
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The problem is that the single-price no-haggle thing hasn't proven to be a massive sales success. Saturn tried it for a long time, and at least in the early days you couldn't blame the product for the lack of sales. Now, when the S-series was pushing a decade, that's a whole different scenario. Scion has been doing it for a long time as well but they haven't exactly been rocketing up the sales charts, and likewise I don't think you can blame the product. For all the bitching about how horrifyingly bad the dealer sales process is at most dealerships (and it is loving awful; I should not have an $8000 swing in price from when I walk into a dealership to when I spend five loving minutes on the internet and Truecar for that exact car at that exact dealership), people still buy cars.
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Sep 17, 2013 23:20
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fknlo posted:Don't they do this by flat out raping most people on their trade in? If by raping your mean being in line with wholesale prices and having a small buffer to ensure that we dont lose money taking in a shitheap unmaintained 100k mi trade in vehicle. No matter how good of an offer we give them most customers are going to think we're lowballing them and are going to expect us to come way up on their trade while coming way down on our price. If we dont plan for that by actually having somewhere to go then they're just going to leave in a huff about how we wouldn't give them a fair price for either. The car sales industry if farily hosed up when it comes down to negotiating price and both the sellers and buyers are to blame for it. If you want no haggle pricing then sell your previous vehicle on craigslist or a forum and pay the sticker price of the vehicle and be happy. That's no haggle pricing (just like every other consumer item you buy).
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Sep 17, 2013 23:27
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How did it even become accepted practice to be able to negotiate on car prices anyway? I can't walk into the dentist and be like "yeah you are going to have to do better here or I'm out"
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Sep 17, 2013 23:29
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Nodoze posted:How did it even become accepted practice to be able to negotiate on car prices anyway? I can't walk into the dentist and be like "yeah you are going to have to do better here or I'm out" But in the large scale, negotiation is a huge part of how healthcare costs are set. I think negotitation is inevitable while there is the dealer model. If we did away with dealers and new cars were sold directly by manufacturers, THEN no-haggle could take off and be sucessful. There are 8 Ford dealers in the city I live in, and that means that I ended up getting the best deal from a "no-haggle" dealer whose internet sales manager gave me the lowest price in response to a mass email.
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Sep 17, 2013 23:38
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Nodoze posted:How did it even become accepted practice to be able to negotiate on car prices anyway? I can't walk into the dentist and be like "yeah you are going to have to do better here or I'm out" Actually you can, maybe not for real basic stuff but certainly for big work. Most people don't bother because insurance does this behind the scenes (for better or worse) leaving them with just the co-pay. You can negotiate on prices for drat near everything that you're not buying from the grocery store (and you can negotiate on groceries if you go to a farmers' market.) Doesn't mean it's always worth your while.
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Sep 17, 2013 23:41
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Nodoze posted:How did it even become accepted practice to be able to negotiate on car prices anyway? I can't walk into the dentist and be like "yeah you are going to have to do better here or I'm out" Yes you can, in the US at least
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Sep 17, 2013 23:58
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Nodoze posted:How did it even become accepted practice to be able to negotiate on car prices anyway? I can't walk into the dentist and be like "yeah you are going to have to do better here or I'm out" I think it has been this way since the birth of the automobile; as far as I know, Ford has used dealerships since their inception and would basically force inventory on them. I imagine negotiation was a factor in every purchase during the early twentieth century. I agree that it is pretty antiquated at this point. I'd much prefer to have a system that provides real-time price quotes for cars where you can purchase, secure financing, and fill out all of the paperwork online in a night, then you could just swing by the dealership afterwards and they would have your car ready and waiting. However, like Snowdens Secret said, you can haggle for pretty much anything. I've gotten discounts on clothes, shoes, and car parts on top of the usual big ticket items by basically asking. Most retail stores give their employees a little bit of leeway in terms of pricing as long as you can justify the discount.
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Sep 18, 2013 03:38
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Aren't there laws to prevent dealers from ripping you off when you trade in a car? I ask because a guy I know got $1500 in trade and the dealer listed the car for sale at $8000.
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Sep 18, 2013 03:49
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Rhyno posted:Aren't there laws to prevent dealers from ripping you off when you trade in a car? I ask because a guy I know got $1500 in trade and the dealer listed the car for sale at $8000. They listed the car for $8000 then probably ended up having to sell it for $6500 unless the guy you know AND the buyer were pushovers. But like i said earlier dealers will come in below what they would really pay for because most customers aren't going to accept the first offer even if its a good offer. So lets say they came in $1500 under what the car is worth if they wanted to wholesale it. They let the customer negotiate up to that amount and take it in for an acv of $3000. Now they have to run it through the shop to make it sellable which probably ends up costing them a few hundred to a thousand bucks. Lets say it cost $500 to make it properly roadworthy and able to pass inspection now we're at $3500. Now if they list it for $8000 and it rolls for $6500 they've made $3000 on the car but now have to pay the salesman his commission for it which in most places would be $600 (20% of the gross profit) and another $150 to the sales manager and $150 to the finance manager for a total of $900 in commissions now they've made $2100 on the car. Thats a good car for the dealership but nothing crazy. That guy probably could have gotten more for his trade but that spread isn't too crazy.
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Sep 18, 2013 04:42
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What do you do if close down your racing team, but you still have a dedicated team of race car engineers on the payroll, and another year's worth of sponsorship money from a huge oil company? You set them to work applying race car technology to one of your road cars, in order to make it as efficient as possible, of course. They started with a base 68bhp 1.0L Peugeot 208, with the goal of halving its fuel consumption without compromising interior space or handling. They made it more aerodynamic, fitted a hybrid system, used carbon fiber parts wherever possible, replaced metal suspension parts with fiberglass, replaced all the glass with polycarbonate, significantly modified the engine (16:1 compression ratio, special low-friction carbon coating on moving parts etc.) and a whole lot of other tweaks. The only real loss was the aircon, for weight saving and efficiency. The end result is that the car went from 53mpg to 122mpg (22km/l to 52km/l) while the 0-100km/h time went from 14 seconds to 8 seconds. http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/frankfurt-motor-show/frankfurt-motor-show-2013-peugeot-208-hybrid-fe I know they can't put it into production like that, but there are some good leassons to be learned on how to increase efficiency for cars we can actually buy.
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Sep 18, 2013 09:23
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So if he could have sold the car for $8k why didn't he? Do you also get upset that Starbucks has the nerve to sell 2c worth of coffee for $3.50?
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Sep 18, 2013 15:11
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kill me now posted:That guy probably could have gotten more for his trade but that spread isn't too crazy. This is why I almost feel bad for the string of dealers that was trying to sell my MS3 but apparently finally did. It got turfed at least twice and last I saw was for sale for only about $3k over what I got in trade, and they at least replaced the rocker panel that had a nice big gouge in it. If they resolved all of the issues that car had, even in parts cost alone they'd be eating up a lot of that $3k.
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Sep 18, 2013 18:43
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Nodoze posted:How did it even become accepted practice to be able to negotiate on car prices anyway? I can't walk into the dentist and be like "yeah you are going to have to do better here or I'm out" Most ironic post ever. How did NOT drinking the koolaid even become a thing?  As far as car news, i am curious how lovely the new Mirage will be. I actually went to a mitsu dealer to pick up a part for something and was looking for one, but i suppose they havent arrived yet.
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Sep 18, 2013 19:15
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Throatwarbler posted:So if he could have sold the car for $8k why didn't he? $.02 of coffee, a $.17 cup and $1.25 in employee/location costs is probably closer to how it works.
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Sep 18, 2013 19:28
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