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I find it really weird to make it into a big shark-jumping moment but yes, I remember noticing the exact same inconsistency Zogundar did.
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Sep 19, 2013 02:57
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... screw it. I sure hope Rich is okay!
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Sep 19, 2013 03:01
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Soon originated the oath that bound all the ghost-martyrs, so he felt it each time one was dispelled. Was that so very hard?
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Sep 19, 2013 03:02
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sebmojo posted:So your 'friend' who this annoyed. Tell us about him. Oh, he has the most interesting opinions sometimes.  He randomly hates things with no discernible pattern that I can see (He even made a list of things I recommended to him that was supposed to be some sort of Hall of Shame. "Hey, this is the best anime ever, you should watch it" *drops it after one episode and gives it a 2 on MAL*; Hey this game is cool, you should try it- *"terrible, added to The List"*; "Hey, this game is ironically terrible, just try it for 30 seconds to see how awful it is," *exact same treatment as if I had recommended it as a legitimately good game*) This also extends to movies. He no longer trusts my opinion because I recommended such bottom of the barrel bad movies as Raiders of the Lost Ark and Robocop. He runs a 4E D&D campaign which I dropped out of after 2 years for long and involved reasons I won't get into here. I'm not sure how much more it'd be consider 'proper' to say (Or if I've already said too much?), but I can infer from your post that you believe this to be my opinion and that said friend does not exist (Especially since that happened once before, although that time I was actually arguing against his opinion.) I assure you we are separate entities, he's just either very skilled at getting me to ask questions because of him, (Like the time he couldn't be bothered to register on a forum to ask for build advice for a game and for some reason I did it for him) or I'm predisposed toward looking for answers. Probably a little of both. CapnAndy posted:Soon originated the oath that bound all the ghost-martyrs, so he felt it each time one was dispelled. Still doesn't explain why he was unaffected during his fight with Xykon.  The Leper Colon V posted:... screw it. He didn't hurt his thumb again, did he?
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Sep 19, 2013 03:13
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Zogundar posted:Still doesn't explain why he was unaffected during his fight with Xykon. Probably because getting stunned-occasionally wasn't enough to overcome "the only way we can actually hurt him is magic missile."
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Sep 19, 2013 03:32
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Yeah, I was implying that. But ok, I accept you have a friend. 'I hope Rich is okay' is what people say when it's been a long time between comics or when the thread has got particularly septic. As for your complaint, I just went back and read the strip: 1. Turn is AoE, but affects high and low level undead differently. 2. Rich seems to have forgotten Soon saying 'I'll fight the priest'. Happens, doesn't matter (if you like you can say the situation changed between strips, such as Redcloak running out of turning, spelling this out would make the story worse so he didn't do it) 3. The bit about the ghosts being linked is just something you've made up.
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Sep 19, 2013 03:34
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sebmojo posted:2. Rich seems to have forgotten Soon saying 'I'll fight the priest'. Happens, doesn't matter (if you like you can say the situation changed between strips, such as Redcloak running out of turning, spelling this out would make the story worse so he didn't do it) Actually that was the result of Xykon taunting Soon and causing him to lose focus on the plan and go after Xykon instead. Making his opponents so angry that they ignore good strategy is one of Xykon's strengths.
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Sep 19, 2013 03:45
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Rereading the strip it's pretty obvious that Redcloak is just using normal "Turn Undead" rules and the explanation was just poorly worded, that's all. Trying to look further into it than that is stupid and to argue the point for the same of a friend that may or may not exist or because you are just "looking for answers" long after its been explained by multiple people is a bit too spergy even for this thread.
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Sep 19, 2013 03:45
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reignonyourparade posted:Probably because getting stunned-occasionally wasn't enough to overcome "the only way we can actually hurt him is magic missile." This is as good as any of the explanations offered for why it didn't work out. But that's not really the issue. It's that we never see this or any other of them (At least in the main webcomic.) By all appearances Soon was not inconvenienced in the slightest after that initial panel and Xykon didn't even get a reprieve in the form of not getting beat up quite so much to the point that he basically concedes the fight is lost (You can even hear him taunting Soon and getting beaten up some more in an intervening strip.) sebmojo posted:Yeah, I was implying that. But ok, I accept you have a friend. Ah. quote:As for your complaint, I just went back and read the strip: Redcloak had at least enough Turning to finish off all of the ghosts since he says he got the last of them when Xykon makes a run for it. quote:3. The bit about the ghosts being linked is just something you've made up. Is it? It seems pretty clear cut to me that, based on his subsequent explanation and strategy that at least the one time when Redcloak decided it was "Interesting" that turning the ghosts had a feedback effect of some kind on Soon.  Who What Now posted:Rereading the strip it's pretty obvious that Redcloak is just using normal "Turn Undead" rules and the explanation was just poorly worded, that's all. Trying to look further into it than that is stupid and to argue the point for the same of a friend that may or may not exist or because you are just "looking for answers" long after its been explained by multiple people is a bit too spergy even for this thread. The normal turning rules actually make less sense in this case since Turn Undead has no stun effect. It's either flee, cower, destruction, or command. And high enough level undead - which Redcloak even admits Soon is ("Way too many Hit Dice") is completely unaffected. If poofing the lesser undead didn't have some effect on Soon, then why is he being stunned? If normal rules were at work, he'd be completely immune! The only conclusion is that poofing them stunned him.
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Sep 19, 2013 04:20
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Who What Now posted:Rereading the strip it's pretty obvious that Redcloak is just using normal "Turn Undead" rules and the explanation was just poorly worded, that's all. Trying to look further into it than that is stupid and to argue the point for the same of a friend that may or may not exist or because you are just "looking for answers" long after its been explained by multiple people is a bit too spergy even for this thread. Edit: Rather than just empty quoting, saw an interesting suggestion over on the forums. V got the soul splice off the fiends because she needed it to defeat the ancient mother black dragon. She needed to defeat the ancient mother black dragon because she dusted her baby. V dusted the baby black dragon because Roy was looking for the star metal. Roy was looking for the star metal because Sabine/Nale sent him on a mission there. And who was pulling Sabine's strings? Why, the fiends. I'm not sure I believe there was an intended connection, but it's a nice one nonetheless. sebmojo fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Sep 19, 2013 |
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Sep 19, 2013 04:27
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Zogundar posted:And high enough level undead - which Redcloak even admits Soon is ("Way too many Hit Dice") is completely unaffected. Way too many Hit Dice to be destroyed like the lesser ones were. C'mon. This isn't that hard. Redcloak obviously rolled a super good rebuke check and just barely managed to stun Soon once. Additionally, considering a paladin is fear immune and all, houseruling that he's "stunned" instead of "cowering" seems like some perfectly reasonable fluff to me.
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Sep 19, 2013 04:32
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I'd like to point out that the strip in question came out in '07, over six years ago. It was a mistake on Rich's part, something that happen in any story. Nitpicking such an insignificant and above all inconsequential mistake from so long ago is just insane.
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Sep 19, 2013 04:41
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sebmojo posted:Edit: Rather than just empty quoting, saw an interesting suggestion over on the forums. It's definitely a cute set of connections and could in fact be something that was going for a while. The IFC doubtless had a lot of plans set up to give them the situation they got with V since they needed to make sure the gates/rifts business works in their favor, though this one could also just be a bit of extreme convenience/the IFC being opportunistic.
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Sep 19, 2013 04:47
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Colonel Cool posted:Way too many Hit Dice to be destroyed like the lesser ones were. C'mon. This isn't that hard. Redcloak obviously rolled a super good rebuke check and just barely managed to stun Soon once. You can't turn something 5 levels higher than you regardless of what you roll. "Way too many Hit Dice" suggests he's easily more than 5 levels higher than Redcloak. And that's before you get into Turn Damage further limiting the number of HDs of undead you can affect in one go. He even says he did not directly affect him! Again, normal turn undead rules only make less sense in this case, not more. Who What Now posted:I'd like to point out that the strip in question came out in '07, over six years ago. It was a mistake on Rich's part, something that happen in any story. Nitpicking such an insignificant and above all inconsequential mistake from so long ago is just insane. Maybe it wasn't a mistake! There's a book I don't have that other posters here do have that might have had a bonus strip that explains things! Or maybe Rich talked about it once! I don't know! I was just still curious if anything more had ever been said about it. All anyone really had to say was "Yes, on page 2x4z.." or "he made a post once that said.." or "nope." For some reason I didn't expect I'd have to argue that it had happened. *edit* sebmojo posted:V got the soul splice off the fiends because she needed it to defeat the ancient mother black dragon. She needed to defeat the ancient mother black dragon because she dusted her baby. V dusted the baby black dragon because Roy was looking for the star metal. Roy was looking for the star metal because Sabine/Nale sent him on a mission there. And who was pulling Sabine's strings? Why, the fiends. I'd assumed it was on some level (Though whether it was "I had it all planned out ahead of time  -George Lucas" intended or not, I have no idea.) If Rich can plan Durkon becoming a vampire 800 strips and 10 years in advance I suppose it's possible! (I think he's also said he already knows what the last panel of the last page will be.)
Zogundar fucked around with this message at 04:59 on Sep 19, 2013 |
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Sep 19, 2013 04:51
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You know, if you look at the panels following, Soon is never shown being stunned by the loss of his ghosts because there's like three or four panels of him fighting Xykon total. It could very well have been happening, but the narrative was with Miko when Redcloak was turning undead.
MikeJF fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Sep 19, 2013 |
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Sep 19, 2013 05:07
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Zogundar posted:Maybe it wasn't a mistake! There's a book I don't have that other posters here do have that might have had a bonus strip that explains things! Or maybe Rich talked about it once! I don't know! I was just still curious if anything more had ever been said about it. All anyone really had to say was "Yes, on page 2x4z.." or "he made a post once that said.." or "nope." For some reason I didn't expect I'd have to argue that it had happened. If you haven't gotten such an answer after nearly a page and a half of discussion don't you think that means the type of answer you're looking for doesn't exist, and that perhaps you're wrong and there simply isn't a good in-story reason for what happened? And if you're more than willing to go this far to argue the point here, why not email Rich himself about it? sebmojo posted:Edit: Rather than just empty quoting, saw an interesting suggestion over on the forums. I like this idea, but somehow I don't believe this was the case at the time that arc was written. But it may be a useful coincidence for Rich to point to to reinforce the long-con the Fiends are playing.
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Sep 19, 2013 05:18
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Zogundar posted:You can't turn something 5 levels higher than you regardless of what you roll. "Way too many Hit Dice" suggests he's easily more than 5 levels higher than Redcloak. And that's before you get into Turn Damage further limiting the number of HDs of undead you can affect in one go. He even says he did not directly affect him! So Redcloak is level 16 and Soon is 20. That's perfectly consistent. Throw in a good HD roll and make the other three ghosts pretty low level and he could easily do all of them at once.
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Sep 19, 2013 05:40
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Who What Now posted:If you haven't gotten such an answer after nearly a page and a half of discussion don't you think that means the type of answer you're looking for doesn't exist, and that perhaps you're wrong and there simply isn't a good in-story reason for what happened? And if you're more than willing to go this far to argue the point here, why not email Rich himself about it? I was stating why I originally brought it up. Maybe it came up at some point around here in all those years. I haven't even had it posted for half a day yet, maybe that one poster who has the book and would know the answer is asleep or on vacation for all I know. Then I figured it was natural to defend the validity my own question. I don't think I claimed whether a good answer existed or not (That was part of the question.) As for e-mailing Rich, I dunno, I guess I assumed he's not someone you can just casually e-mail and expect to get an answer from, or I might have tried that years ago. I think the most important person I've ever gotten a hold of was Fragmaster. I asked him if he'd make more Nerdshoe (He didn't.  ) Heck, I can't get into Neogaf even after following all of their rules for registration. I just wanted to answer some dude's question (A month ago.)  Colonel Cool posted:So Redcloak is level 16 and Soon is 20. That's perfectly consistent. Throw in a good HD roll and make the other three ghosts pretty low level and he could easily do all of them at once. I think it's safe to assume Soon is epic level given the epic-level status of every other gate holder. That puts him at at least 21 (And given how he schooled Xykon I'd be surprised if he wasn't much higher.)
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Sep 19, 2013 05:50
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Maybe Soon was schooling Xykon so effectively that even the temporary stuns weren't having much effect on the battle outcome, and any stuns just happened off-panel. Oh well.
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Sep 19, 2013 09:38
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Whenever that guy brought up the throne room I assumed it would be Xykon's insanity bouncy ball, because I remember some goons going loving nuts over that. This whole undead-turning thing seems pretty weaksauce in comparison.
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Sep 19, 2013 09:59
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You know, the simplest explanation is that Redcloak's Turn Undead momentarily stunned Soon, but Redcloak misinterpreted that as being a result of popping the ghost-martyrs. Rich just wrote in Redcloak making a tactical mistake, that's all.
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Sep 19, 2013 10:54
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A whole lotta people seem beholden to rules that Rich has said multiple time get hand waved for story purposes. gently caress, Soon might as well have taken a moment of remembrance for those who were serving with him in the afterlife. Who gives a poo poo? The story progressed and it's not like it completely invalidates anything that went on in those comics. Soon had his last stand, Redcloak was Redcloak, and the final stand of the Sapphire Guard was epic as poo poo. I can't believe we have to get mad about this poo poo.
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Sep 19, 2013 11:03
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Kill all grognards.
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Sep 19, 2013 11:29
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This is the most heated argument I've ever seen where everyone essentially agrees with each other.
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Sep 19, 2013 12:54
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Hey look, a change of topic. So who is Durkon going to get spells from? Can an evil vampire cleric actually get spells from Thor, who I gather is supposed to be one of the good gods. Does an evil god swoop in and claim him automatically, is there a contest, will we get to see a Bachelor parody once the Order gets out of this mess and things calm down?
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Sep 19, 2013 14:10
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By the rules, unless the campaign setting specifically changes that (like the Forgotten Realms), clerics do not need a patron deity to get spells. They can be powered by their own faith in whatever that is they are a cleric of. So Durkon could technically still be a cleric of Thor even if Thor doesn't want him anymore. (He'd just have not to use ThorPrayer(tm) anymore for his spells, and given that all ThorPrayer is good for is getting colon cancer, it's not a big loss.) However, it is usually speculated that there wouldn't have been all these references to the rivalry between Thor and Hel if Durkon wasn't going to switch into a cleric of Hel.
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Sep 19, 2013 14:39
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Has there been any reference to Loki since the blond dwarf girl who was so long ago I forget her name disappeared? It would be kind of interesting if she suddenly popped back up now that Durkon is a vampire.
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Sep 19, 2013 14:48
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The cleric who helped Haley and Celia out in Greysky City was with Loki. But I think somewhere there was a comment by Rich that if he'd remembered at that specific point that Hilgya had been a Loki cleric, he'd have picked some other appropriate deity.
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Sep 19, 2013 14:57
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If he isn't praying to Nurgul now, Durkon can just pray to an ephemeral concept or an elemental force. -EDIT- Beaten like Z'Zidtri -EDITx2- VVVVVVVVV They sure can! It's a prestige class called the Ur-Priest. Who What Now fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Sep 19, 2013 |
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Sep 19, 2013 15:28
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Suddenly I wonder if Reddit atheists in D&D verse could literally draw power from the concept of atheism.
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Sep 19, 2013 15:36
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razorrozar posted:Suddenly I wonder if Reddit atheists in D&D verse could literally draw power from the concept of atheism. Yes, they're called wizards.
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Sep 19, 2013 15:38
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Captain Oblivious posted:Kill all grognards. loving seriously. Bunch of  up in here.sebmojo posted:Edit: Rather than just empty quoting, saw an interesting suggestion over on the forums. That's pretty rad.
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Sep 19, 2013 15:39
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Hey, 54 new posts! Man, Rich must be really cranking them out if there's a new strip already....oh.  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 19, 2013 17:14
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jng2058 posted:Hey, 54 new posts! Man, Rich must be really cranking them out if there's a new strip already....oh. Everything's alright as long as nobody's posting fake links that lead to Goblins.
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Sep 19, 2013 17:19
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Redcloak says "Interesting" because he realises that the ghost he's fighting is Soon himself, it's got nothing to do with the stunning effect.
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Sep 19, 2013 17:31
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Blackheart posted:Everything's alright as long as nobody's posting fake links that lead to Goblins. And as long as there are no
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Sep 19, 2013 17:39
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Umbra Dubium posted:Redcloak says "Interesting" because he realises that the ghost he's fighting is Soon himself, it's got nothing to do with the stunning effect.  Blackheart posted:Everything's alright as long as nobody's posting fake links that lead to Goblins. Don't invoke what can't be uninvoked.
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Sep 19, 2013 21:57
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Earnestly posted:And as long as there are no That reminds me, I found unbelievable that Lee gets Tarquin's mooks. Since he's been known to wield CE agents (succubi, sorcerers), doesn't that make them chaotic evil? Tarquin's plot troop should obviously be lawful evil. This is obviously a huge inconsistency and I will take it up with Rich himself if only there was some way to contact him on this here internet. I have a friend who stopped reading the comic completely after that strip.
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Sep 19, 2013 22:10
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Kajeesus posted:That reminds me, I found unbelievable that Lee gets Tarquin's mooks. Since he's been known to wield CE agents (succubi, sorcerers), doesn't that make them chaotic evil? Tarquin's plot troop should obviously be lawful evil. This is obviously a huge inconsistency and I will take it up with Rich himself if only there was some way to contact him on this here internet. I have a friend who stopped reading the comic completely after that strip. edit: oh i get it.
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Sep 19, 2013 22:22
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Ursine Asylum posted:Don't invoke what can't be uninvoked. Whenever someone mentions it, I get the urge to look at the site. So many melty-man words  On the subject of OotS, i'm starting to think that Sabine might wind up helping out the Order at some point in the future. Using the Order as agents of revenge with regards to her boyfriend's death seems right up her alley, even before you get into Sabine being privvy to some very important information relating to V's contract. It'd be reliant on her actually wanting to help, but at the very least she was happy to see V go up and blast the hell out of Tarquin's army. Niton fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Sep 19, 2013 |
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Sep 19, 2013 22:24
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