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Geokinesis posted:Barkey posted: ...is basically what they're going to hear from every publisher they approach. And then they'll cry about how much prejudice there is against them.
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Sep 18, 2013 18:56
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mr. stefan posted:The whole troper idea of what deconstruction is is hilarious and a perfect example of how, in their mad dash to fit every "good" trope into their favorite comic and/or anime, they've completely diluted the meaning of the word to the point of uselessness. One of my favorite quotes from the old thread was how a Halo novel was described as "dark, to the point of deconstruction". At this point deconstruction basically means "I like it and bad things happen in it"
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Sep 18, 2013 19:32
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quote:At this point deconstruction basically means "I like it and bad things happen in it" Yeah, what the rear end? How did this happen?
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Sep 18, 2013 19:35
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Apple Tree posted:Yeah, what the rear end? How did this happen? Tropers heard someone call Watchmen a deconstruction once, completely missed the actual structural and t hematic elements Watchmen unpacked, and only picked up on the violence and grim atmosphere. Thus, their definition started as "violent and dark reinterpretation of an existing genre" and slid to "something I like that's sort of dark and maybe kind of clever I guess" E: this is of course not counting the final and inevitable stage of the tvtropes page life cycle, "literally any loving thing I can type a sentence about" Babysitter Super Sleuth fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Sep 18, 2013 |
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Sep 18, 2013 20:00
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mr. stefan posted:Tropers heard someone call Watchmen a deconstruction once, completely missed the actual structural and t hematic elements Watchmen unpacked, and only picked up on the violence and grim atmosphere. Thus, their definition started as "violent and dark reinterpretation of an existing genre" and slid to "something I like that's sort of dark and maybe kind of clever I guess" I think that no one should be able to use the d-word without having read On Grammatology
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Sep 18, 2013 20:12
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I watched Tangled earlier, and in honour of the new thread, decided to see what TVTropes thought about it. This was a mistake. There's 30+ pages listing all of the tropes. And that's not even looking at the YMMV, headscratchers, fridge logic, crowning moments... quote:Hikikomori: Rapunzel, as she has never gone out of the tower. Of course, it was not entirely voluntary. She even wraps up in her hair during "Mother Knows Best". If that wasn't an homage to Sayonara, Zetsubou-Sensei, it's still reminiscent. quote:Marshmallow Hell: Mother Gothel does this a couple of times...or manipulates Rapunzel into running into it, which is basically the same. quote:Headscratchers: Just how old was Rapunzel when she was kidnapped? She had to be at least a couple months if she could have her eyes open.
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Sep 18, 2013 21:42
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quote:Headscratchers: Just how old was Rapunzel when she was kidnapped? She had to be at least a couple months if she could have her eyes open. I'm no biologist, but I think that's kittens you're thinking of there, TVTropes.
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Sep 18, 2013 21:48
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And my second favourite Troper Tale:quote:No formal training beyond watching a crapton of anime, but I've trained both myself and my younger brother (who is surprisingly skilled for a six year old...he uses that size to his advantage) to swordfight. I taught him basic tactics, and allowed him to develop his own style. We currently differ, as he uses a full blown broomstick(I don't let him near the actual models...), and I counter with my shorter, nodachi-sized weapons. Very simple tactic, though effective, really. Parry, thrust. Win.
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Sep 18, 2013 21:55
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Smoking Crow posted:I think that no one should be able to use the d-word without having read On Grammatology "Deconstruction and Criticism". "On Deconstruction". No readee, no usee. The word they really want is 'dismantle' or 'dissect'. But those are plain'n'boring, whereas Deconstruction sounds all literary and intellectual. Therefore, it is ideal for Tropers to corrupt.
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Sep 18, 2013 22:20
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Khazar-khum posted:The word they really want is 'dismantle' or 'dissect'. But those are plain'n'boring, whereas Deconstruction sounds all literary and intellectual. Therefore, it is ideal for Tropers to corrupt. In total fairness to the tropers, this is a common problem that extends way past them. It doesn't make it right, of course.
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Sep 19, 2013 00:09
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Striking Yak posted:I watched Tangled earlier, and in honour of the new thread, decided to see what TVTropes thought about it. This was a mistake. There's 30+ pages listing all of the tropes. And that's not even looking at the YMMV, headscratchers, fridge logic, crowning moments... I googled Marshmallow Hell because I thought it was an overly cutesy way to say manipulating someone and being cruel but dressed up sweetly, and thought 'wait yea that was her entire MO to Rapunzel in that movie'. Nope, it's when someone's face gets smushed into a pair of tits, thanks TVTropes, you're the worst.
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Sep 19, 2013 00:24
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Random Stranger posted:In total fairness to the tropers, this is a common problem that extends way past them. It doesn't make it right, of course. Tvtropes has been around long enough that I'd bet they're the originators of that particular misunderstanding, though.
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Sep 19, 2013 00:31
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mr. stefan posted:Tvtropes has been around long enough that I'd bet they're the originators of that particular misunderstanding, though. I wouldn't go that far but for a website with tens of thousands of words written on deconstruction, there's no excuse for them not knowing what it is.
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Sep 19, 2013 00:39
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Apple Tree posted:...is basically what they're going to hear from every publisher they approach. And then they'll cry about how much prejudice there is against them. No it's not. Barkey's been in the last several threads and is where he's always at. He's like every Troper in that he's too afraid to submit or even write anything that could fall under such criticism. Striking Yak posted:I watched Tangled earlier, and in honour of the new thread, decided to see what TVTropes thought about it. This was a mistake. There's 30+ pages listing all of the tropes. And that's not even looking at the YMMV, headscratchers, fridge logic, crowning moments... Looks like it got lost when Fast Eddie cut the porn tropes but Tangled used to have long entries about how Tropers went to that movie solely because Rapunzel was barefoot for the entire thing.
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Sep 19, 2013 00:57
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Having just listened to the new Boards of Canada album, I had a feeling that the band would be prime Troper bait. I was not disappointed!quote:Call Back: "Sunshine Recorder" features a child chanting the names of two previous Boards of Canada songs ("An Eagle in Your Mind" and "A Beautiful Place Out in the Country"). quote:Children Are Innocent: A recurring theme often either played straight or averted.  quote:Fading into the Next Song: "The Beach at Redpoint" into "Opening the Mouth." quote:Shout Out: The group name is a reference to the National Film Board Of Canada. Their titles and samples can be pretty heavy on this as well: quote:Teen Genius: Considering the fact that Mike was born in 1971 and Marcus in 1973, they technically started Boards of Canada when they were still teenagers, like their Warp labelmate Aphex Twin. (And much like Aphex, it took them a while to find their trademark style.) Striking Yak posted:Ah yes, obviously a reference to Some Anime. Sham bam bamina! fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Sep 19, 2013 |
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Sep 19, 2013 02:16
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Jerkass!quote:When a character grows into a jerkass over time (sometimes not much of it at all). Can be due to flanderization, a Face Heel Turn, or just another regular albeit unfortunate case of Character Development. While a Jerk rear end growing into a Jerk with a Heart of Gold is a common phenomenon, especially in dramas, a reversal, resulting in this trope, is also common, especially in comedies. I guess it's nice that they recognize the actual role of the writer in story development. All the capitalized letters are links. I did the bolding.
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Sep 19, 2013 03:03
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Let's have a look at a classic. What do they have to say about Hamlet?quote:Darker and Edgier: Considered one of Shakespeare's darkest plays. quote:Break the Cutie: Ophelia. See also Butt Monkey, Kill The Cutie, and The Woobie. Hamlet was cute (according to his friends) before he was broken by the murder of his father, which has already happened by the time we meet him. Yes, that grasps the tragedy pretty well, I'd say. quote:Brooding Boy, Gentle Girl: Hamlet and Ophelia could be seen as a deconstruction. Oh look, it's another deconstruction. Any more on that? quote:Deconstruction: Of the "revenge drama" in vogue at the time. quote:Gondor Calls for Aid: Fortinbras's entrance is somewhere between this and Deus ex Machina. What happens when you take a specific character as a trope and then remember the work it was in in the first place? quote:The Ophelia: Ophelia becomes this after going mad in Act IV. But all this focus on Ophelia doesn't truly do the play justice. On the "Characters" page, her section has this to say: quote:Disposable Love Interest: She's completely passive and entirely defined by her relationships with the male characters. When they all disappear (Hamlet rejects her, her father dies and Laertes is abroad) she goes completely to pieces and commits suicide. quote:Neutral Female: She shows very little independence and simply acts as a pawn to her father, and then as then motivator for Laertes' revenge after her death. Instead, Horatio's character section gives us this: quote:Ho Yay or Heterosexual Life Partners: With regards to Hamlet. quote:Good Night Sweet Prince quote:Morality Pet: Probably the only person Hamlet is consistently nice to. quote:Together in Death: Attempted at the end, but a dying Hamlet stops him. Speaking of, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern posted:Ambiguously Gay: Especially in Franco Zeffirelli's version. TVTropes has its priorities straight as always.
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Sep 19, 2013 07:47
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Sunsetaware posted:"Ho-ya"-tio If FandomSecrets taught me anything, it was that every character is gay. And they are all loving. Fiction is just one big orgy. And I am a homophobe for not seeing it. Is it because nerds are socially broken, so they don't recognize human relationships? Or is it because they are so desperate to see something that they just find it everywhere they look? Maybe I am the broken one. Man, I need to lighten up. So why don't we take a trip that old goldmine, "favorite lines from your own writing." TVTropes is, after all, home to some of the sharpest wits on the internet. Let's see if we can't find some of their patented magic. Tera Chimera posted:"How do I look?" In a similar vein, Dhana Ragnarok has a character with "a bit of a temper." Oh man, what a bad rear end posted:"You okay" Seriously, this guy is so cool posted:"Now tell me...Oak or Ebony?" Just like one of my animes posted:"I'll admit that I might have went a bit overboard with the drinking..." See, this raises questions. Like, why would a grown man be drinking Mr. Badass Alcoholic's blood? Nobody knows! It's a hook. It's what good writers do. Now, if sociopaths-as-written-by-thirteen-year-old-goths aren't your thing, we've also got unapologetic racism! Red M posted:"You don't need to be black to beatbox, that's rapping." But it would be a sin to leave out TVTrope's Hemmingway-in-Residence: Major Tom posted:Colonel Barry Smith: TROOPERS, WHO ARE WE? WHAT'S IT MEAN TO BE GI JOE? AMERICA'S NUMBER ONE FIGHTING FORCE, SIR! Build Your Own Boat fucked around with this message at 09:11 on Sep 19, 2013 |
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Sep 19, 2013 08:32
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I still don't quite understand how the whole subverted/inverted/averted/cockadoodledood thing works. There's a trope, and then there's the absence of a trope, which is apparently a trope in itself? Build Your Own Boat posted:If FandomSecrets taught me anything, it was that every character is gay. And they are all loving. Fiction is just one big orgy. And I am a homophobe for not seeing it. Is it because nerds are socially broken, so they don't recognize human relationships? Or is it because they are so desperate to see something that they just find it everywhere they look? I you can't board a ship, build your own boat.
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Sep 19, 2013 08:50
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my dad posted:I still don't quite understand how the whole subverted/inverted/averted/cockadoodledood thing works. There's a trope, and then there's the absence of a trope, which is apparently a trope in itself? It's easy. If there is a thing-that-happens, it is a trope. If something isn't that thing, it subverts that trope. If something is definitely not that thing, it inverts that trope. If something is cannot be connected to that thing in anyway, it averts that trope. And something that subverts a trope is a trope. Something that inverts a trope is also a trope. And if it averts a trope, you better believe it is a trope. And if you still can't apply it to your favorite anime, then you find a new thing-that-happens, and make up your own meaningless trope. It's like the circle of life. Only for people without a life.
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Sep 19, 2013 09:23
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Asked the student:my dad posted:I still don't quite understand how the whole subverted/inverted/averted/cockadoodledood thing works. There's a trope, and then there's the absence of a trope, which is apparently a trope in itself? Said the enlightened one: Consider yourself standing in front of a mirror. Before you is another person, but that person is merely a reflection of you. Your reflection is merely an aspect of you, but the mirror creates an illusion of separateness. Such is the trope. The separateness of each trope is an illusion, a distraction from following the ways of the eightfold list. Each trope is an aspect of the whole - an attempt to understand one is a distraction from the understanding of the whole. Discard these distractions, child, and ponder instead the oneness of the trope. In this way you will attain enlightenment and become one with the Published.
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Sep 19, 2013 09:39
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A student approaches his teacher... "Master, is the metaphorical nature of a trope subject to change, or is it a constant, marking the same idea despite creating an illusion of subversion?" "Dinner." "Um... Please clarify. Not even a though has arisen from your answer." "Without using your literary knowledge or common sense, tell me about your story's true face before words were born." "Hey, this is the first time you've ever actually made sense!" "That is because you are an idiot looking for meaning in random gibberish." "That's not very nice or philosophical of you." "Dinner." "You are repeating yourself, master." "Exactly. And still you haven't brought me my dinner..."
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Sep 19, 2013 09:59
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Sorry to detract from the subainverted talk, but recently a topic from back in '09 was revived in Writer's Block. I took the liberty of perusing it.Nolan Burke posted:The title probably says it all, but I'm also condescending: basically, you pick a main character from one of your own pieces of writing, briefly introduce them, and then answer the three questions in the previous post as you feel the character would answer them - preferrably in first person. The you leave three new questions for the next poster. The questions can be philosophical, personal, or basic first-time-conversational (though please keep them relativley serious). It's okay to re-use questions, but not too often. Let me give you some highlights of one I found particularly enrapturing. Leleil posted:1. How was your life at home? Those were some long three questions. I'm glad he got it off his chest.
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Sep 19, 2013 10:21
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quote:Major Tom posted: drat, then.
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Sep 19, 2013 10:58
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Metal Loaf posted:drat, then. I've never figured out what, exactly, Major Tom is supposed to be writing. Novel? Game? Script? Script for a game? 
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Sep 19, 2013 11:06
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Khazar-khum posted:I've never figured out what, exactly, Major Tom is supposed to be writing. Novel? Game? Script? Script for a game? An epic trilogy of novels.
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Sep 19, 2013 11:08
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Khazar-khum posted:I've never figured out what, exactly, Major Tom is supposed to be writing. Novel? Game? Script? Script for a game? I don't think even Major Tom knows. I think he just thinks that, if he vomits out enough of Endless Conflict, it will magically take on its ideal form and dazzle the world. At this point, he's less a writer and more a summoner, or perhaps an exorcist, expelling His Story from his mortal form so it can take on a life of its own. (The ideal form, I imagine, is either anime or a real-time strategy game, whichever one allows him to spend more raw time on cockpit-bound pilots yelling futilely at each other while throwing robot punches.)
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Sep 19, 2013 11:14
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Khazar-khum posted:I've never figured out what, exactly, Major Tom is supposed to be writing. Novel? Game? Script? Script for a game? A trope page.
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Sep 19, 2013 12:36
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Build Your Own Boat posted:If FandomSecrets taught me anything, it was that every character is gay. And they are all loving. Fiction is just one big orgy. And I am a homophobe for not seeing it. Is it because nerds are socially broken, so they don't recognize human relationships? Or is it because they are so desperate to see something that they just find it everywhere they look? It's because of the invisible Geek Social Fallacy: Accept me, accept my fantasies. They start with the archetype of the school bully making fun of you for liking science fiction, and yeah, giving someone a hard time for liking this or that book is bad. (Though probably not why they were actually bullied.) From there, it goes like this: 1. My imagination is a big part of who I am. 2. People should accept me for who I am. 3. Therefore, if I prefer to pretend something is real, to whatever degree of reality I choose, anyone who points out that reality isn't with me is an ostracizer. It underpins the whole of TVTropes. I think the brother and sister hugging each other are secretly loving? Accept me, accept my fantasies. I'm not actually human because I have the soul of a robot bison? Accept me, accept my fantasies. Fapping to and creeping on underage girls doesn't make me pedophile? Accept me, accept my fantasies. I think I'm a critic because I've catalogued twenty different kinds of camera angle for photographing feet? Accept me, accept my fantasies. I think I'm a writer because I talk endlessly about a vague plan for something I'm never actually going to turn into a story? Accept me, accept my fantasies. For instance: in search of content, I typed the word 'fantasist' into the TVTropes search box. And despite being a common and recognisable kind of fictional character, and unlike pretty much everything else in the entire universe, it has not been made into a trope. (And I looked on the loving Labyrinth page to double-check. "Sarah is an unhappy teenager, who hides from life in fantasy tales to the point of dressing up in a long flowing dress and acting bits of script in the park." There are no links in that sentence. The tropers do not have a trope for that.)
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Sep 19, 2013 12:50
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Apple Tree posted:For instance: in search of content, I typed the word 'fantasist' into the TVTropes search box. And despite being a common and recognisable kind of fictional character, and unlike pretty much everything else in the entire universe, it has not been made into a trope.
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Sep 19, 2013 13:11
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made of bees posted:I dunno, you can't depend on TVTropes giving things intuitive names. After a bit of searching I found a few tropes that seem to be about what you were looking for. Yeah, those sort of touch on it, but none of them have the basic simple principle of 'retreating into fantasy rather than coping is a bad thing.' They're all very specific variants that skirt round that basic idea. Despite the fact that fiction is heaving with examples. Considering their mania for documenting EVERYTHING, I find their handling of it tellingly evasive. Anyway, rather than just tropily quibble with you, I went looking for more content by hitting the random button. Here's what I got: quote:One Word Title TVTropes! It's educational!
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Sep 19, 2013 13:29
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Apple Tree posted:TVTropes! It's educational! The fact that they didn't give that
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Sep 19, 2013 15:23
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Random Stranger posted:The fact that they didn't give that But if they did that, How Would You Know it was A Trope? To create A Proper Trope, you need to Capitalize Lots Of Words until it makes a sentence Almost Unreadable! Otherwise, Where's The Fun?
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Sep 19, 2013 15:40
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How long has Major Tom been writing that Endless Conflict thing? Are there any actual chapters released or is it all just little bits he posts to look cool or get opinions on? Of course, I'm going to feel really dumb if I walk into B&N next year and see a huge display of Major Tom's Endless Conflict.
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Sep 19, 2013 15:51
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Random Stranger posted:The fact that they didn't give that They used to have a lot of imaginatively named tropes, but it made it even harder to actually use the site so they changed a lot of them. Especially the ones using Japanese words to describe random concepts and the ones that were basically inside jokes at that point.
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Sep 19, 2013 16:07
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oldpainless posted:How long has Major Tom been writing that Endless Conflict thing? Are there any actual chapters released or is it all just little bits he posts to look cool or get opinions on? At least since 2011 if this thread is any indication. Also when you stuff the words 'endless conflict' into Google the fourth auto-complete is Endless Conflict Major Tom. Not bad for something that will probably never be finished and will definitely never be readable.
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Sep 19, 2013 16:14
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Anais Nun posted:At least since 2011 if this thread is any indication. Also when you stuff the words 'endless conflict' into Google the fourth auto-complete is Endless Conflict Major Tom. Not bad for something that will probably never be finished and will definitely never be readable. I actually kind of like that thread, because a lot of the tropers commenting on Endless Conflict are saying exactly the same things about it that we are. QQQQQ posted:This needs way less trope focusing and more story. It sounds like you're nabbing off tropes off the conveyor belt, and it will sound stilted, laboured, and artificial as a result. This guy has the right idea.
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Sep 19, 2013 16:19
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Apple Tree posted:...is basically what they're going to hear from every publisher they approach. And then they'll cry about how much prejudice there is against them. Then they'll move into self-publishing, and when it fails miserably they'll blame it on poor marketing or piracy or stupid audiences not appreciating their genius or literally anything but themselves and the quality of their writing.
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Sep 19, 2013 19:19
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...of SCIENCE! posted:...when it fails miserably they'll blame it on poor marketing or piracy or stupid audiences not appreciating their genius... Speaking of "audiences not appreciating genius," there's this "trope": http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AudienceAlienatingPremise. Not much to write home about, until I found this in the "Literature" section: [quote]Twisted! is a book about sentient rollercoasters... that kill and eat people. The idea of the main characters being amusement park rides seems too childish for adults, but the gore and edginess of the content makes it inappropriate for children.[/i] And yes, it's the same Twisted you guys ripped apart in The Book Barn.
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Sep 19, 2013 22:15
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Gore and edginess.
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Sep 19, 2013 22:54
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