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VanSandman posted:All the Primarchs are supposed to have fatal flaws. That's part of what makes them fun to read about : Fulgrim's vanity, Horus' pride, Guilliman's... OK, I have yet to figure out what Gulliman's weakness is. Maybe insistence on documenting things instead of going out and doing them? A kind of OCD? Lack of imagination. Guilliman is an excellent administrator and tactician, but is methods are heavily influenced by what's gone before. He lacks that spark of originality that would move him from "great at his job" to "a genius at his job". It's why the Emperor picked Horus instead of Roboute for Warmaster....Horus had that genius, and Guilliman didn't. You can see that failing reflected in many of the Ultramarine successor chapters where they worship the Codex Astartes word for word and will accept no tactic or methodology not contained therein. If it ain't in the book, you don't do it...and they get that from Robbie G.
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Sep 21, 2013 07:19
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Anonymous Zebra posted:Nope. Other earlier core books talk about how The Lion was insulted by something Russ did during a battle that probably wasn't a big deal but The Lion took it as an insult because he is unable to read people at all.  . The Lion goes through with it anyway and kills the dude. Afterwards Russ is pissed and smacks Jonson in the face, Jonson jumps up and a brawl starts that lasts a full day. Eventually Russ realises that he was being a tard and is all "hey bro, let's call it even" and Jonson is all dickish and punches Russ out when he isn't expecting it.Even TL;DRer: MY E-HONEURE!
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Sep 21, 2013 07:21
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EyeRChris posted:Gulliman is probably rigid adherance to the law. It said that he wrote the codex as a guide not a set path to follow but he didn't exactly teach that to his sons. Also Perturabo was much, much smarter then all the other Primarchs, but distant and aloof from them as a result. So when the Heresy started happening he wasn't really close to any of them and especially hated Dorn, who fawned over the Emperor like a sycophant. That and while other Primarchs won relatively short epic battles with heroic victories, Perturabo spent years cracking planets that were essentially glorified strongholds that could've have held off everyone else indefinitely and decimated the attackers, his victories usually being met with "Oh, that's nice. Russ just slayed an Ork Warboss twice his size, but not everyone can be a battlefield hero. You did good champ, now head over there and relieve the Ultramarines so they don't lose too many Marines."
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Sep 21, 2013 07:34
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Anonymous Zebra posted:Nope. Other earlier core books talk about how The Lion was insulted by something Russ did during a battle that probably wasn't a big deal but The Lion took it as an insult because he is unable to read people at all. Doesn't the Lion try to rush to the defense of Terra, only to run into the Night Lords? So i am pretty sure by the siege of terra he did pick a group to trust. VanSandman posted:All the Primarchs are supposed to have fatal flaws. That's part of what makes them fun to read about : Fulgrim's vanity, Horus' pride, Guilliman's... OK, I have yet to figure out what Gulliman's weakness is. Maybe insistence on documenting things instead of going out and doing them? A kind of OCD? Honestly i never really saw a decent list of the primarch flaws/what they are good at. Primarch Flaws: The Lion: Mild Autism Horus: Ambition Ferrus: Somewhat of a hot head? Fulgrim: Obsession with perfection Vulkan: ??? Dorn: Pride (Pertrurabo was good at making him run his legion into a death trap by insulting their pride) Guilliman: Paranoia, he was insistent on stuff being done his way or else. He also spent huge amountof time trying to build his own empire just because he lost contact with terra. Magnus the Red: Obsession with attaining knowledge Sanguinius: ??? Perturabo: Jealously? Wasn't he pretty drat jealous of Dorn? Mortarion: ??? Lorgar: Guessing something to do with his zealotism Khan: I have absolutely no idea Russ: Loyal to the point where he doesn't question anything Curze: Multiple personalities Angron: Rage? Corax: Being impatient? The Twins: Scheming too hard
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Sep 21, 2013 07:41
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I just discovered that Ian Watson wrote the screen story (an adaption of an existing property that makes major changes) for the movie A.I. This explains why that movie makes me so loving angry in one part: the part sandwiched between the opening and closing credits. He tinkered with a Kubrik story and produced... that. How the gently caress did a GW author even get considered for the job ? Oh, and the Inquisition War series is bloody awful. I'm just starting book 2 of the trilogy, and it just took a nose dive from mediocre but charming early 40k fluff into an ocean of awful. The AI credit is displayed prominently on the cover of book 2. mllaneza fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Sep 21, 2013 |
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Sep 21, 2013 07:58
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mllaneza posted:I just discovered that Ian Watson wrote the screen story (an adaption of an existing property that makes major changes) for the movie A.I. This explains why that movie makes me so loving angry in one part: the part sandwiched between the opening and closing credits. He tinkered with a Kubrik story and produced... that. Most of the poo poo in AI was Kubrick, I thought? I think the inquisition war gets much much better by the third book when it abandons all pretence of what the gently caress is going on and goes into AAAARG WTF WTF territory and its glorious.
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Sep 21, 2013 08:11
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Anonymous Zebra posted:Nope. Other earlier core books talk about how The Lion was insulted by something Russ did during a battle that probably wasn't a big deal but The Lion took it as an insult because he is unable to read people at all. Pride isn't the same as autism (and all Primarchs are prideful, being grandiose creatures), and his brothers are all inhumanly charismatic manipulators, as are to a degree their closer advisors and emmisaries (else they wouldn't have obtained the positions in the first place). I tend to make fun of this kind of poo poo all the time, but it really is sort of offensive to (my impression) seriously say that the Lion was autistic because of a mix of paranoia/pride and being played by the greatest political figures of the era, or that Guilliman had OCD because... what even the gently caress, because he had attention to detail?
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Sep 21, 2013 08:30
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lenoon posted:Most of the poo poo in AI was Kubrick, I thought? 1. The movie is infuriatingly bad. 2. A GW author has screen story credit on the movie, which you only get if you make major changes to an existing work. 3. Have you read anything by Ian Watson ? Mediocre is is his ceiling. I won't deny that the series a lot of early 40k charm and insanity, and the plots are really solid. I will insist that much of the prose is godawful. I will try and get through it. If anyone else wants to pick it up, this series needs a Let's Read. I'll do it when I can stand to read the first half of it again. This may be a while.
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Sep 21, 2013 09:00
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Arquinsiel posted:A bit TL:DR, but The Lion and The Wolf are attacking the same fortress, and Russ wants to storm the walls and be badass because the dude in charge called him a puppy (no really, that's what he called him...) and Russ swears to tear out the dude's heart. Jonson has a plan that involves infiltrating through the sewers or whatever but Russ tells him to shove it, we're going all I thought the critical punchline to that story is that Russ realizes that they're acting like petty children and starts laughing at the absurdity of their fighting, but the Lion thinks Russ is laughing at him, not with him, and punches Russ while his guard is down. Which again goes to the mythic identities of the two characters - Jonson is stiff and proud to the point of prissiness, and sometimes has trouble with people, while Russ is rash and quick to act but also keenly perceptive and ultimately good humored about it. Jonson is all about strategic and analytic genius. Russ is all about flexibility and intuition, as someone who's not as tied down by civilization. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 09:35 on Sep 21, 2013 |
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Sep 21, 2013 09:23
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I have to credit Inquisition War with a lot of influence on Dan Abnett. Inquisitors in conflict with each other, a private code used by the inquisitor and his warband, sexual tension between a key operative and the Inquisitor, and heretics after the secret of the Emperor's true name. Needless to say, Abnett pulls it off better, most notably actually writing out the Glossia instead of just referencing it and then giving the cleartext. mllaneza fucked around with this message at 10:00 on Sep 21, 2013 |
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Sep 21, 2013 09:58
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mllaneza posted:1. The movie is infuriatingly bad. I think a lets read of some black library stuff would be great, lets do it! I'm not an expert on the AI movie an I agree about Watson. His level of writing just works for the Draco trilogy, in my opinion. It's not good, it's not well written but its.... Appropriate.
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Sep 21, 2013 10:18
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Here's my edit of the list someone made. Of course, you could just stick "hubris" in every one of those lines, but still... Primarch Flaws:
Horus: Ambition Ferrus: Boring, unimaginative, too practical/materialist Fulgrim: Obsession with perfection Vulkan: Written by Nick Kyme Dorn: Over-attachment, sentimentality (Dorn needed the Iron Cage because he couldn't bear the thought of splitting up his beloved sons) Guilliman: Conventionality? Magnus the Red: Obsession with attaining knowledge Sanguinius: Doomed as Horus' rival. Also maybe self-sacrifice? Perturabo: Insecurity/inferiority complex Mortarion: Passivity (hubristic over-reliance on his vaunted endurance?) Lorgar: Idealism - is blinded by his own desire for something greater Khan: Restless, unstable - refuses to ever settle down. Rather unreliable. Russ: Non-conformity, contrarian nature. Also maybe lack of ambitions. Curze: Cynicism - his inability to realize that fear alone cannot build a lasting peace. Also madness. Angron: Rage Corax: Depression? The Twins: Scheming too hard
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Sep 21, 2013 10:21
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I think the fact that Perturabo's "honour guards" were robots says quite a lot about him as well
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Sep 21, 2013 10:55
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That's a good start at the list, Ian Watson is writing prose that's past purple and well into the ultraviolet. I've decided that that's because he's deliberately writing the way john Blanche draws. That's perfectly in genre. I'm actually sad that some of his bits of fluff aren't recurring throughout later fiction. Ordo Malleus I quisitors should be tattooing their successful demon kills on themselves works well. Eisenhorn wouldn't do it, but every sector's Ordos are practically unique in custom and tradition. The animal-based servitors never show up again; this I'm less sure about. Using an animal is borderline cool, but on the other hand it waste a perfectly good opportunity to really, really gently caress over an enemy of the Cult Mechanicus. Like I said, it has its charm. It's still the sort of thing I consider rewriting as an exercise, but he really is into it. The worst curse of an author is to be gifted an inspiration that you can't pull off as well as you want to. May the Emperor spare me such torment. As to an LR thread... There are 40k books we insist you read; those by Abnett and ADB mostly. We recommend James Swallow and Sandy Mitchell with very few reservations. Then there are the books we warn people about with that special intensity. Those last books are what the LR should cover, along with anything controversial. Candidate titles: Soul Drinkers inquisition War The Eye of Chaos Everything CS Goto wrote after Dawn of War, especially his Eldar stuff We should probably cover the bad Horus Heresy novels just so that they can be laid to rest in an organized fashion with an excuse to quote extensively. With a few more suggestions, and some volunteers, someone can start knocking together an OP (possibly me).
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Sep 21, 2013 10:55
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Cream_Filling posted:Guilliman: Conventionality? Gulliman's flaw, such as it is, flows directly from his strengths. He's a reflection of the Emperor's pragmatic, methodical side. Hence why he built Ultramar into the most functional subdomain in the Imperium, and why he spent so much time analyzing and systemizing tactics in the Codex Astartes. What he lacked, somewhat, was the scope and intensity that most of his brothers had. Horus was a better warleader, The Lion a better strategist, Lorgar more charismatic, Russ a better warrior, Angron a more accomplished killer. He couldn't match Peturabo or Dorn for seigecraft, or Corax and Curze for infiltration, or Alpharius Omegon for devious plans. He was, however, the most superlative soldier of any of them. He excelled at logistics, personnel management, and training. That's why, after the Heresy, when he found himself with effective control of the Imperium due to having the most intact combat force, he didn't set himself up on the throne. He didn't attempt to reshape the Imperium extensively, because he was a soldier and soldiers serve, they don't rule. Should he have taken control? Maybe. The Imperium would be radically different, perhaps for the better, if he had done so.
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Sep 21, 2013 11:05
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Guilliman's flaw, to me, always reads as 'is quintessentially lawful stupid'. He works FANTASTICALLY well when the situation fits his expectation of situations in general, and when he can find a moment to MAKE it fit, but when it all goes to poo poo, and you have to throw the book out the window and make do, he's screwed.
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Sep 21, 2013 11:13
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I'll happily volunteer and reccommend the Space Marine novel (again by Watson) as it is batshit even beyond the inquisition war stuff. And really gay. In a good way. I think maybe tying the BL stuff into the best examples of military sci fi is something that's been talking about before in this thread - Forever War/Free, Life during wartime, even use of weapons - would be interesting to compare style rather than quality. How much of even the best 40k fiction is military fiction / sci fi with extra gothicness and how much has its own distinctive voice? Thinking about Abnett for a minute, I think he's grown the Gaunts Ghosts series from something that was essentially standard military fiction into true 40k fiction. But, as much as I like necropolis and the saint trilogy, I don't think that happens until traitor general (and even, really, His Last Command). The 30k stuff, while cool, doesn't have a 40k feel (obviously I guess) and, except in rare cases, is pretty standard military sci fi. Even some of the Abnett and ADB falls into that, though they're very very well written. Weirdly, I'd say its probably a reason why Thousand Sons stands up so well for me - it feels appropriate to the universe, mutation, daemons, insanity etc, while prospero burns (a better book by far) isn't quite as.... Insane as 40k fiction feels like it should be. Does all that make sense? The comparison of Watson's writing and Blanche's art is a good one. There's probably better artists, but none who quite capture the sheer mind destroying insanity of the 40k universe quite so well.
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Sep 21, 2013 11:16
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Guilliman combined the traits of the consummate Colonel or Brigadier with the consummate mIlitary strategist and theoretician. Remember that during the Heresy a first draft of the Codex, when followed faithfully, produced strategic combinations that even veteran Astartes officers were unable to discern. He created a doctrine that would inexorably produce victory if only you could follow it. We've had military geniuses. They couldn't do that. Guilliman did and that's his genius. What he doesn't have is the big picture. He's no Ernie King (head of the US Navy in WW2) , no Frederick the Great. He can hold a hundred or so worlds together, and his psyche is clean enough that he'll naturally build an relatively enlightened society. Guilliman was also methodical to a point past flaw and Into virtue. He would have organized the galaxy that Horus conquered. Horus was the consummate warlord. People skills. Strategic genius. The whole package for someone given the job of conquering the (rest of) the galaxy. His flaw was trust. He trusted his advisors. He trusted loving Erebus. He trusted the warp-things that showed him visions and whispered into his unconscious mind. And because of that, the galaxy burned.
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Sep 21, 2013 11:23
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thespaceinvader posted:Guilliman's flaw, to me, always reads as 'is quintessentially lawful stupid'. He works FANTASTICALLY well when the situation fits his expectation of situations in general, and when he can find a moment to MAKE it fit, but when it all goes to poo poo, and you have to throw the book out the window and make do, he's screwed. The whole point is he wrote the Codex Astartes and told all space marines to follow that and only that, deviating from it would be treason and some chapters followed it to their deaths or attack other chapters for not following it closely enough. Then the Tyranids showed up and wrecked Ultramar until the Ultramarines finally stopped blindly following a 10,000 year book and made use of their resources to best defeat the enemy. I guess it really all depends on who writes it. We might get a HH series book or another Ultramarines series that continues to show the Codex as the be all end all of war and contains no flaws or oversights in the slightest. lenoon posted:I'll happily volunteer and reccommend the Space Marine novel (again by Watson) as it is batshit even beyond the inquisition war stuff. And really gay. In a good way. In the Omnibus intro Watson makes a big deal that to get a idea of what to write and how to write it he surrounded himself with all the Warhammer40k fiction and tried to place himself mentally in a broken dystopian future hellscape and write from that perspective. At the time most of the other W40k writers just took typical space sci-fi styles and added the bolters, Eldar, and orks without distinguishing it from all the other dark futuristic settings. Watson decided "Well, maybe if I write this like a crazy person it might mesh better with the intended setting" and his trilogy is most effective work to convey the misery and chaos Games Workshop tries to make W40K into. The 30k fiction written by the mediocre/poo poo writers is crammed so full of references to the modern 40k setting its extremely off putting. That, and the forced dramatic lines like Horus exclaiming "Let the galaxy burn"
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Sep 21, 2013 11:32
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pentyne posted:
I'd actually say that this continues to this day, including some of the authors this thread really likes. But don't worry! I like them too, I'm just saying a lot of ADB and Abnett isn't "laughter of thirsting gods" but is still "grim darkness of far future".
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Sep 21, 2013 11:50
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pentyne posted:The whole point is he wrote the Codex Astartes and told all space marines to follow that and only that, deviating from it would be treason and some chapters followed it to their deaths or attack other chapters for not following it closely enough. Actually, he explicitly tells his marines not to follow it to the letter because battles are fluid and commanders need to have the ability to use their judgement. I think it's in Know no Fear.
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Sep 21, 2013 12:29
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pentyne posted:The whole point is he wrote the Codex Astartes and told all space marines to follow that and only that, deviating from it would be treason and some chapters followed it to their deaths or attack other chapters for not following it closely enough.
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Sep 21, 2013 12:36
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I honestly think Guillimans flaw is more just his paranoia of failing to preserve humanity, such that he isn't willing to take any sort of risks. While his flaw was justified, but at the same time he almost was his downfall, and basically almost caused the imperium to fall into a second civil war. He basically almost went to war with the Space Wolves, and the Salamanders over them refusing to adopt the codex. He is so paranoid of humanity dying out again, he sets up the High Lords of Terra, such that no one has a majority power, which more or less strips the ability for the remaining primarchs to basically lead effectively. If he or one of the other primarchs had become the new warmaster the odds are the imperium wouldn't be decaying so quickly. Hell he even basically makes his own empire Imperium Secondus, after loosing contact with Terra (which isn't really explained yet). Guilliman is probably the one primarch who in all shape and form should have been warmaster, given his asset is the fact he is good at empire building. Which confuses me even more as to why the emperor who preaches rationality, and knows the traits of each of the primarchs, decides to not pick him to be warmaster.
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Sep 21, 2013 13:08
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Because he knows Horus the best. Horus is the first one he encounters, and is the closest to being "raised" by the Emperor. Combine that with Horus being really good strategy and war and you see why the Emperor picks him. The Emperor didn't want Horus to run the Imperium, he just wanted him to conquer the galaxy, he had his own ideas for how to run things after Horus was done.
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Sep 21, 2013 13:29
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UberJumper posted:He is so paranoid of humanity dying out again
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Sep 21, 2013 13:42
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Nephilm posted:Pride isn't the same as autism (and all Primarchs are prideful, being grandiose creatures), and his brothers are all inhumanly charismatic manipulators, as are to a degree their closer advisors and emmisaries (else they wouldn't have obtained the positions in the first place). I'm glad you posted this, because I feel the same way. He's essentially supposed to be a knight, and the trope is that knights were prideful to the point of taking offense at the smallest perceived slight. But, of course, it's the Internet, and it's funny to call anyone with any sort of character flaw autistic. pentyne posted:In the Omnibus intro Watson makes a big deal that to get a idea of what to write and how to write it he surrounded himself with all the Warhammer40k fiction and tried to place himself mentally in a broken dystopian future hellscape and write from that perspective.
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Sep 21, 2013 13:42
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Point of order: let the galaxy burn is a great line when delivered right. Behold, the most thing to ever come from a 40k video game! http://youtu.be/3nrMtxtUnzU
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Sep 21, 2013 14:02
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Cream_Filling posted:Primarch Flaws: I can't remember which book it was mentioned in, but the best explanation I've heard is that even though Sanguinius is known and loved for those big ol' wings of his, they're something of a mark upon him by the warp things that stole him from his dad and imbued him with a small touch of their power. More than once, major warp entities (possibly Khorne himself) told him his wings were a sign of their blessings. That, along with the secret of his legion's (and likely his own) problem with the whole blood madness thing, makes him feel inferior and flawed, despite how well-loved he is in the public eye. Sanguinius' deal is that of all his brothers, he feels that he has the most to prove. Ironically, it's because he's trying so drat hard all the time that he is so successful and loved by the populace. He might have been just an average primarch otherwise. People see him as one of the brightest-shining stars among his brothers, but that's not because he's just blessed with awesomeness; it's because he has a major chip on his shoulder that's making him be all tryhard all the time.
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Sep 21, 2013 16:28
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That's in Betrayer, Lorgar telling Erebus why Sanguinius will never be turned to their side.
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Sep 21, 2013 17:30
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Another weakness from Fear to Tread is he feels the death of each of his legionnaires, during the big battle the demon killed 500 at once and he passed out in some weird blood coma boner.
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Sep 21, 2013 17:33
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'Course, then pretty much every blood angel completely loses their poo poo and starts wrecking the daemon army. And a few Space Wolves, but who's counting?
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Sep 21, 2013 18:26
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I think Angron's 'weakness' was love. The anger was a result of that amplified by the Nails.
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Sep 21, 2013 19:03
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VanSandman posted:'Course, then pretty much every blood angel completely loses their poo poo and starts wrecking the daemon army. And a few Space Wolves, but who's counting? Leman Russ, probably.
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Sep 21, 2013 19:17
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I think Perturabo's story is honestly the 'saddest' of all the Primarchs'. He honestly doesn't seem like someone who has drawn over to Chaos so much as he was pushed away from the Imperium. It's like, you take a capable commander and you send him to Space Vietnam over and over and over and over and despite the fact he wins them for you, everyone is so caught up on everything else like Russ killing a warboss or something and Perturabo is left with nothing but piles of dead soldiers and an order to garrison a planet that Horus' conquered and is probably getting a banquet feast about. Perturabo realized what he was good at, he was very intelligent, and he knew that what he did was vital, but just because something is vital doesn't mean it wasn't worthy of praise. I really think the entire Heresy would have gone differently if the other Primarchs would just pass him in the space hallways and pull him aside and say 'great work on Castle-Planet Deathdoom, I know my legion couldn't have done it. Let's go get a space beer' or something. Every other Primarch was vain and so caught up with what they were doing that they would fistfight over stupid poo poo and all Perturabo wanted was an occasional 'good job' but even that was too much. Then some stupid loving space painter made a picture of the Imperial Fists marching to victory literally over piles of dead Iron Warriors and he was like whatever. So then the Heresy happened and he got hosed over some more, so he plotted a final 'gently caress you' to Rogal Dorn and decided to flee to wherever he could find safety, which happened to be the Eye of Terror.
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Sep 21, 2013 19:18
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One Legged Cat posted:I can't remember which book it was mentioned in, but the best explanation I've heard is that even though Sanguinius is known and loved for those big ol' wings of his, they're something of a mark upon him by the warp things that stole him from his dad and imbued him with a small touch of their power. More than once, major warp entities (possibly Khorne himself) told him his wings were a sign of their blessings. That, along with the secret of his legion's (and likely his own) problem with the whole blood madness thing, makes him feel inferior and flawed, despite how well-loved he is in the public eye. Sanguinius' deal is that of all his brothers, he feels that he has the most to prove. He has his vanity, too. Wasn't there a part in Fear to Tread where he dreams about losing his wings and he's bitter about being "like the rest of them"? His wings are what set him above the others. He's literally the Angel, soaring above them all. In fact, he seems to have a lot of the traits and flaws of the other primarchs, which kind of fits as he's often seen as a 'mini-emperor'. He has the black rages that are the equal of Angron's beserk rampages. He has the beauty (and vanity?) that Fulgrim has. He's an inspirational leader (so much so that Horus thinks Sanguinius should have been war master). He's an utter badass in combat, one of the top tier guys that NOBODY wants to gently caress with like Russ and the Lion. The fact that Robute calls him the Angel of Death and the marines have wagers on him being the one to kill Horus tells you something. He has visions and a sense of his own end like Cruze. His legion's seed is flawed like Magnus, making him willing to push further to find an answer. He has a supernaturally inspirational ability like Lorgar. He was also possibly the most important piece on the board during the heresy. If Sanguinius had turned, Horus would have won. Fear to Tread made out that Horus was actually wary of Sanguinius turning because the powers may have favoured him. The fact that he was the closest to Horus of all the brothers adds another layer of tragedy on top of the grim dark. Yet despite all these things that make him one of the biggest bad asses in 30k-40k, I can't shake the "angsty vampire" vibe bullshit... As a side note, I love how so many of the "good" primarchs are mutated in some way that would get the inquisition on them in 40k. Ferrus' Silver eyes and hands, Sangy's wings, Russ' furrie tendancies, Vulkan's red eyes, Corax's black, raven eyes, etc.
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Sep 21, 2013 19:36
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SUPER NEAT TOY posted:I think Perturabo's story is honestly the 'saddest' of all the Primarchs'. He honestly doesn't seem like someone who has drawn over to Chaos so much as he was pushed away from the Imperium. It's like, you take a capable commander and you send him to Space Vietnam over and over and over and over and despite the fact he wins them for you, everyone is so caught up on everything else like Russ killing a warboss or something and Perturabo is left with nothing but piles of dead soldiers and an order to garrison a planet that Horus' conquered and is probably getting a banquet feast about. No, he was vain and kind of an unlikeable dick. Guilliman, Dorn, Manus... those guys did everything because it was right and necessary, and wouldn't have cared if they received no praise or admiration from it. His fall came from his shortcomings - he just wasn't as stalwart as his brothers, and his stoicism and distant nature just exacerbated the situation. Dog_Meat posted:As a side note, I love how so many of the "good" primarchs are mutated in some way that would get the inquisition on them in 40k. Ferrus' Silver eyes and hands, Sangy's wings, Russ' furrie tendancies, Vulkan's red eyes, Corax's black, raven eyes, etc. Russ wasn't a furry. Space Wolves develop wolf-like traits from their geneseed's reaction to the Canis Helix, but Russ was as free of mutation as a primarch can be. Nephilm fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Sep 21, 2013 |
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Sep 21, 2013 19:42
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SUPER NEAT TOY posted:I think Perturabo's story is honestly the 'saddest' of all the Primarchs'. He honestly doesn't seem like someone who has drawn over to Chaos so much as he was pushed away from the Imperium. It's like, you take a capable commander and you send him to Space Vietnam over and over and over and over and despite the fact he wins them for you, everyone is so caught up on everything else like Russ killing a warboss or something and Perturabo is left with nothing but piles of dead soldiers and an order to garrison a planet that Horus' conquered and is probably getting a banquet feast about. Dunno, we only hear Perturabo's side of it. The other side is that Perturabo never actually seems to say anything about it so nobody knows how unhappy he is. He knowingly takes every grueling siege assignment and never tries to promote his legion or push for something different - and as a primarch his wishes should be able to exert massive pull over the army planners and his brothers. Instead, he bottles it up inside and becomes a big jealous wiener about it. He's described as cold, calculating, and doesn't seem to be close to anyone, which makes it much harder for there to be the sort of brotherly affection and acknowledgement that exists among some of the other primarchs. Plus he's literally a demi-god of war and lord of a legion, so honestly he should be mature enough to not constantly need validation from his brothers. Also he's one of the few primarchs to be unable to control his home planet, so apparently he might not be as smart or competent as he thinks he is, or at the very least unable to inspire the kind of loyalty that Dorn or Guilliman can. Dorn and Perturabo are the two siege specialists - Dorn focuses more on building fortifications and Perturabo on tearing them down. But where Dorn is warm, sympathetic, and even affectionate, Perturabo is cold, calculating, sullen, and bitter. Is it really that much of a surprise that Dorn and his legion are famous and beloved while Perturabo's is mostly ignored? The sad thing about their feud is that until the betrayal, it's embarrassingly one-sided. By all accounts, it seems that Dorn has great respect for his brother and can't even imagine why Perturabo would feel inadequacy or jealousy. That offers one explanation for the famous incident where Dorn says that he honestly thinks his Fists could withstand a siege by Perturabo. There's a pretty decent short story in one of the anthologies where Dorn basically goes over his own ethos. He goes back to Terra to fortify the imperial palace even though he hates being stuck there doing nothing. But to him, loyalty is everything, and personal pride or glory means nothing in comparison to it. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Sep 21, 2013 |
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Sep 21, 2013 19:45
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SUPER NEAT TOY posted:I think Perturabo's story is honestly the 'saddest' of all the Primarchs'. He honestly doesn't seem like someone who has drawn over to Chaos so much as he was pushed away from the Imperium. It's like, you take a capable commander and you send him to Space Vietnam over and over and over and over and despite the fact he wins them for you, everyone is so caught up on everything else like Russ killing a warboss or something and Perturabo is left with nothing but piles of dead soldiers and an order to garrison a planet that Horus' conquered and is probably getting a banquet feast about. Seconding this so hard. The one scene in Angel Exterminatus that REALLY made Perturabo stand out as a tragic character to me was when Fulgrim did some weird voodoo poo poo to look into his desires and you saw him as a man of peace, living in a beautiful city that he had created with a population who loved him and the world he had made for them. The fact that we see this glimpse of what he could build if he wasn't constantly thrown in the trenches and slogging in ugly, unrewarded wars was heart breaking. It was hinted at when he built the amazing theater for Fulgrim and he was bitter that something else he had made had become a place of bloodshed, but that dream sequence just hammered the point home that he just wanted to create beautiful things and share them people. Graham McNeil has written some absolute trash, but I thought he nailed that scene (even though I can't remember what the gently caress brought that whole dream thing up in the first place)
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Sep 21, 2013 19:47
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Dog_Meat posted:Seconding this so hard. Dunno, he's one of the few primarchs that had to put down a rebellion on his own homeworld. Could he really have gotten the population to love him? Would his brilliantly designed city actually have been functional for living, breathing, flawed real people? Or is that scene a reflection of the disconnect between his desires and his abilities? We know he can be an "idea guy." But can he actually put his ideas into action? Also, to go back to my previous point, he gets pigeonholed as the siege warfare guy because only a few even know of this hidden side of him. And those that do are egomaniacs like Fulgrim who probably aren't exactly inclined to spread the word around of his hidden talents. There's nothing stopping him from saying "okay I conquered this world, now we're going to hang out here for a year or two and I'll show you just how good I can rebuild this dump." Lorgar is supposed to have dragged the hell out of his feet establishing massive theocracies on every world he conquered. These guys are top-level commanders for what are essentially independent armies roaming around doing their own thing with only patchy direction from Horus and the top levels of the crusade. There's only so much blame you can push when you're a genius demi-god given near-absolute authority over world-shattering resources and only limited oversight. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Sep 21, 2013 |
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Sep 21, 2013 19:58
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SUPER NEAT TOY posted:I think Perturabo's story is honestly the 'saddest' of all the Primarchs'. The clear winner of this one is Angron, imo. Dude is enslaved and has the Nails driven into his head. Rises to start a slave rebellion that sweeps over the planet. Doomed to fail, but they'll die fighting. And then on the eve of their imminent demise, his gene-sire, the motherfucking Emperor of Mankind, appears at the stroke of loving midnight with Angron's sons, who are the entire goddamned War Hounds Legion of Space Mariness. The Emperor's then like "Yo, this poo poo is doomed to fail. Bail on those losers and conquer the galaxy for me." Angron's basically loving horrified that he'd suggest that and his response is something like "Eat an entire bowl of dicks, motherfucker. All I want to do is die alongside my brothers in arms." Angron's sons get pumped the gently caress up by his loyalty and dedication and the bonds of brotherhood he has with his slave army and it's love at first goddamned sight, because that is basically the most important thing in the world for the War Hounds. And so what's the Emperor do? Does he unleash the War Hounds to save their gene-father's army? Does he fight alongside the son that he failed? Does he stand by in orbit and watch his damaged, terrible, noble son die valiantly in battle against his oppressors? Nah. He just loving kidnaps the dude and drags him off without saying anything, leaving the entire world to assume he bailed on the last battle of the rebellion, disheartening his allies and shaming his name there forever. Then he gives Angron a Legion of Space Marines and shoves him out into the galaxy, telling him to go forth and Perturabo ain't got nothing on Angron.
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Sep 21, 2013 20:41
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