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Cerebral Bore posted:It's all well and good that these fuckers got the boot, but the question is who they'll replace them with. If people this high up are GD sympathizers then it's pretty much certain that the problem isn't contained to the regular beat cops and that the police force is in fact shot through with fash from top to bottom, so where will you find competent, non-fascist people to replace them with? What you're saying is that possibly all of the cops, are in fact, bastards?
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Sep 25, 2013 12:17
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Cerebral Bore posted:If people this high up are GD sympathizers then it's pretty much certain that the problem isn't contained to the regular beat cops and that the police force is in fact shot through with fash from top to bottom, so where will you find competent, non-fascist people to replace them with? Hell, how do you tell the complete fuckers from the guys that were merely going along? Sure, the later guys are complicit with the right bastards, but you can't fire every single cop- that'd be a massive fiasco. I guess if you're serious about cleaning the cops out, you'll basically need a civilian review board of the entire force, which will have a ton of resistance from the cops. What a mess.
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Sep 25, 2013 13:09
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Cerebral Bore posted:It's all well and good that these fuckers got the boot, but the question is who they'll replace them with. If people this high up are GD sympathizers then it's pretty much certain that the problem isn't contained to the regular beat cops and that the police force is in fact shot through with fash from top to bottom, so where will you find competent, non-fascist people to replace them with?
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Sep 25, 2013 14:20
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Bring in a bunch of Scandinavian coppers and remake the Varangian guard.
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Sep 25, 2013 14:27
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It seems that the Greeks has been fascist for a lot longer than democratic. And banning sure does work. Look at the Muslims that are not here today. And I think Christianity was banned also once?
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Sep 25, 2013 15:17
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darthzeta88 posted:It seems that the Greeks has been fascist for a lot longer than democratic. And banning sure does work. Look at the Muslims that are not here today. And I think Christianity was banned also once? On the other hand look at the cathars! Oh, right, never mind then... 
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Sep 25, 2013 15:28
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darthzeta88 posted:It seems that the Greeks has been fascist for a lot longer than democratic. And banning sure does work. Look at the Muslims that are not here today. And I think Christianity was banned also once? Which Greeks? Do you count the dead? Because if so most people have been monarchist for a lot longer than democratic.
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Sep 25, 2013 17:22
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YF-23 posted:Which Greeks? Do you count the dead? Because if so most people have been monarchist for a lot longer than democratic. Ya but if I recall Greeks were the only society to go from democratic to fascist.
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Sep 25, 2013 18:31
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edit:oops, wrong thread
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Sep 25, 2013 18:37
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darthzeta88 posted:Ya but if I recall Greeks were the only society to go from democratic to fascist. ...Seriously? So the Weimar Republic doesn't count? I mean yeah, you can point to any number of flaws with its constitutional foundation and way it actually ran, but I don't think you can claim it wasn't actually a democratic state, however weak.
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Sep 25, 2013 18:38
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There's also Portugal, which went from an admittedly unstable democratic republic to a long fascist dictatorship. Edit: vv Nope, care to try again?
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Sep 25, 2013 18:39
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Captain_Maclaine posted:...Seriously? So the Weimar Republic doesn't count? I mean yeah, you can point to any number of flaws with its constitutional foundation and way it actually ran, but I don't think you can claim it wasn't actually a democratic state, however weak. Ill look into this but I would think republic instead of democratic just by the name. But you may be right.
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Sep 25, 2013 18:40
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darthzeta88 posted:Ill look into this but I would think republic instead of democratic just by the name. But you may be right. Unless you're being exceptionally, unreasonably nit-picky about "democracy" versus "republic", then Weimar absolutely was a democratic state before the Nazi takeover. A flawed, badly-run democracy with a very weak constitution (which was a major contributing factor to the rise of the NSDAP after Hitler decided that putsches weren't getting the job done), but a democratic state nevertheless.
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Sep 25, 2013 18:45
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Is the Czech Republic a democracy?
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Sep 25, 2013 19:04
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ReV VAdAUL posted:Is the Czech Republic a democracy? Nah, they're a republic, units outside of their territory only cause 1 unhappiness and they don't fall into anarchy if a city revolts twice. Although they don't get that sweet nullification of corruption.
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Sep 25, 2013 19:10
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darthzeta88 posted:Ya but if I recall Greeks were the only society to go from democratic to fascist. Spain, Chile, and Brazil are all democratic countries that became fascist states. e: Although I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that old republic Brazil was so corrupt that it was pretty much a democracy only for the rich and would probably count as some sort of oligarchy rather than democracy. FreudianSlippers fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Sep 25, 2013 |
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Sep 25, 2013 19:25
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FreudianSlippers posted:Spain, Chile, and Brazil are all democratic countries that became fascist states. Then there are military dictatorships, and Portugal. Hell, democracy dies all the time.
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Sep 25, 2013 19:30
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ReV VAdAUL posted:Is the Czech Republic a democracy? This is a republic not a democracy 
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Sep 25, 2013 19:56
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Guys, read darthzeta88's post history in this thread before replying. He pretty much outright admitted to being a fascist sympathizer.
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Sep 25, 2013 20:13
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 So, who wants to see how a modern neo-Nazi party works? This ex-Golden Dawn member sat down for an interview and pretty much explains their entire playbook. I really, really wanted to just quote the entire thing because it's all just as fascinating as what I've quoted below. Seriously, all forward-thinking people should be studying Golden Dawn as the shape of things to come. http://www.akny.org/2013/09/insider-blows-open-golden-dawn-operations/ quote:How does one become a member?
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Sep 26, 2013 01:58
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Fascinating how much of it is actually essentially organized crime with good PR. In practice, it sounds like they were less interested in keeping immigrants out and more in muscling in on the territory of organized crime in the immigrant communities. Which makes a lot of sense when you consider how organized crime often acts as a source of structure and even social welfare in places where the government cannot provide those things. As I understand it, that was the origin of the Sicilian mafia, and that similar things have occurred at times in outlying areas if Brazil, etc. And of course, in immigrant communities. It sounds like they literally thought they could be a mafia that operated openly right down to ordering hits and yet prioritize ideology as well as business with no contradictions or compromises  Edit: The Facebook stuff is interesting, with fake profiles used for communication and a guy to hack into ex-members' accounts to clean up evidence. Interesting, but really easy for a disgruntled ex-member to dance around to get the data back if they even have half a clue. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 10:39 on Sep 26, 2013 |
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Sep 26, 2013 10:22
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Organized crime with a sheen of ideology as justification is pretty much the norm for American fascist groups like the Vinlanders and Hammerskins, isn't it?
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Sep 26, 2013 11:15
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Coriolis posted:
I hope you mean forward-thinking as in people who want to prevent this sort of scum from grasping hold of power and "the shape of things to come" as "poo poo we need to be still vigilant for".  I do not understand fascists and neo-Nazis in particular. Germany got chopped up into little pieces and utterly wrecked, after bulldozing most of continental Europe and committing genocide. What part of it screams "successful ideology"? What part do they want to emulate? The shame their descendants will carry? Urgh. I hope they all fall down open manholes. I try to have empathy and compassion for every human being, but it's drat loving hard to have such for people who would see me dead and my people eradicated. (Ahem. It's a super interesting link, thank you for it! I have a paradoxical fascination with fascists and Nazis/neo-Nazis. I guess it's kind of like poking roadkill with a stick. Except sometimes it turns out the roadkill isn't dead.)
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Sep 26, 2013 11:32
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I think at the base of it fascism is organised crime. The Nazis had stuff like the Volkswagen (people's car) subscription service where allegedly you got a car after paying enough installments. However the Nazis pocketed the money and didn't give anyone a car. You also had gauleiter behaving identically to how street bosses did. Plus the Nazis were diligent in sending rival organised criminals to concentration camps. Italian fascists were also very focused on wiping out the Mafia in Sicily because they didn't like the competition. It is probably the closest the Italian government has gotten to beating the cosa nostra, albeit by being worse than them.
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Sep 26, 2013 11:37
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ReV VAdAUL posted:Italian fascists were also very focused on wiping out the Mafia in Sicily because they didn't like the competition. It is probably the closest the Italian government has gotten to beating the cosa nostra, albeit by being worse than them. It also backfired spectacularly.
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Sep 26, 2013 11:49
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^^^Backfired how? Did the Mafia unite with the Italian equivalent of the Resistance or something?  I didn't know that about the Volkswagen! I know a lot of poo poo the Nazis did allegedly well, like the Autobahn[1], was an elaborate propaganda exercise, but I didn't know the details. I agree with you that fascism is basically organised crime that wants to be on the ballots. I had a point somewhere about how fascist parties are always accompanied by a paramilitary arm, but that was also true of Sinn "we're basically communists" Fein, so I don't think it's exclusive to fascists or a mark of fascism, but it does seem to be a common theme. Which reminds me, has anyone here seen Bertholt Brecht's The Resistable Rise of Arturo Ui? It's a fantastic allegory of the rise of fascism/the NSDAP in Germany, as portrayed by Chicago gangsters.  Brecht had a very interesting approach to making a point, so you do get hammered over the head with it, but it's a fantastic, chilling play.And this bit from the epilogue is relevant now, as it was when the play was written: Bertholt Brecht posted:Therefore learn how to see and not to gape [1] The Autobahn is fantastic and far-reaching now, but 1930s Germany needed a motorway system like a fish needed a bicycle. Nobody had cars. Apparently nobody got cars, either and the Autobahn couldn't support tanks, either, IIRC, so it was all a big propaganda thing.
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Sep 26, 2013 11:55
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ReV VAdAUL posted:I think at the base of it fascism is organised crime. The Nazis had stuff like the Volkswagen (people's car) subscription service where allegedly you got a car after paying enough installments. However the Nazis pocketed the money and didn't give anyone a car. You also had gauleiter behaving identically to how street bosses did. It's not so much that the point of fascism is organized crime but that the nature of the government gives officials absolute loads of opportunities to stuff their pockets, and the importance of your political connections over your actual merit or performance make you untouchable until your connections fall through or dry up. The only sure way to get brought up on corruption charges in Nazi Germany was to be an obvious, complete lunatic, though sometimes even that just got you put in command of your own army unit.
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Sep 26, 2013 12:04
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It's kind of hilarious of how poorly fascism works. Or would be, if not, you know. That whole mess.
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Sep 26, 2013 12:07
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ReV VAdAUL posted:The Nazis had stuff like the Volkswagen (people's car) subscription service where allegedly you got a car after paying enough installments. However the Nazis pocketed the money and didn't give anyone a car. That is incorrect. The reason nobody received a car was because of the war. They had only produced a handful of cars at that point and then had to switch to war production. When the Russians took Berlin they seized the money.
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Sep 26, 2013 12:12
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What were the dates? When was the program implemented and when was the due date for the first wave of cars bought by installment? Because I think what you described counts as pocketing the money and blaming the war. We could go ask the Nazi thread in A/T, I guess, but I'm a bit scared of them.
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Sep 26, 2013 12:16
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weavernaut posted:What were the dates? When was the program implemented and when was the due date for the first wave of cars bought by installment? Because I think what you described counts as pocketing the money and blaming the war. 1939, the invasion of Polannd which obviously lead to the Battle of France and so on so the cars could not be produced. The savings where seized by the Red Army, they where not spent. A Sloth fucked around with this message at 12:44 on Sep 26, 2013 |
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Sep 26, 2013 12:40
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The building of the factory (and surrounding city) was started May 1938. The structural work of the factory was done Autumn 39.
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Sep 26, 2013 13:07
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weavernaut posted:I hope you mean forward-thinking as in people who want to prevent this sort of scum from grasping hold of power and "the shape of things to come" as "poo poo we need to be still vigilant for". That's exactly the sense in which I meant it. Greece is the patient zero of the austerity disease that's coming for all of us, so it's worth observing.
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Sep 26, 2013 13:27
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That's cute, it sounds like one of the reasons that GD informer became disgruntled and quit is that the higher ups were more interested in collecting protection money from Pakistani business owners than driving them out. It's like he's his own little Tea Party!
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Sep 26, 2013 14:09
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weavernaut posted:^^^Backfired how? Did the Mafia unite with the Italian equivalent of the Resistance or something? This is closer to the truth than you might realize. Also, from what I know of Nazi Germany's bureaucracy, while having a reputation for ruthless efficiency, was actually hilariously inept, incompetent and corrupt. What with the whole promoting based on ideology rather than performance and attracting dumb bullies to ever higher positions. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Sep 26, 2013 |
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Sep 26, 2013 14:51
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SedanChair posted:That's cute, it sounds like one of the reasons that GD informer became disgruntled and quit is that the higher ups were more interested in collecting protection money from Pakistani business owners than driving them out. It's like he's his own little Tea Party! But also interesting in that for him, the idea was to drive them out, not kill them. I would suspect a significant part of the Golden Dawn membership holds this position, with the central 'nucleus' having the pure fascists and organised criminals, and a larger body of desperate individuals searching out someone to blame for their troubles. It's the subversiveness of the movement that makes it dangerous, and the more people who have familiarity with the closed nucleus that can then spread this message to the Greek citizen who may sympathise with Golden Dawn, the more likely it can be delegitimised as a political movement.
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Sep 26, 2013 16:11
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Orange Devil posted:This is closer to the truth than you might realize. The Nazis also encouraged an environment of intense competition between and within their various agencies, ministries, departments and corporations (while not owned by the state, they were closely invested in and dependent on the state). This led to a culture of distrust, with many people getting a head through turning on their higher ups, almost literally stabbing them in the back. And rival agencies would withhold information from each other and sometimes actively work against one another's interests. All this competition for the favor of Hitler ofcourse led to him being even more securely enshrined at the top of the pyramid of Nazi Germany, as any one powerful enough to contend with him had to constantly watch their backs for the number of other people and agencies who would happily throw them under the bus to get closer to Hitler. I think there also was a culture in Nazi Germany of ordinary people actually having very little trust in the government, police and the military and such, because they were viewed as bureaucratical and corrupt. They did trust Hitler though, the whole situation seemed to only further enforce loyalty, as people believed that authorities would be more accountable if only Hitler took a greater role and involved himself more directly in more matters.
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Sep 26, 2013 16:19
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Riso posted:That is incorrect. The reason nobody received a car was because of the war. Could you cite a source on this, it seems pretty amazing that through the entirety of the war the Nazi government would sit on a large amount of cash and even more so it was kept in one place for the Red Army to specifically be able to loot a "Volkswagen fund" 6 years later. Randarkman posted:The Nazis also encouraged an environment of intense competition between and within their various agencies, ministries, departments and corporations (while not owned by the state, they were closely invested in and dependent on the state). This led to a culture of distrust, with many people getting a head through turning on their higher ups, almost literally stabbing them in the back. And rival agencies would withhold information from each other and sometimes actively work against one another's interests. All this competition for the favor of Hitler ofcourse led to him being even more securely enshrined at the top of the pyramid of Nazi Germany, as any one powerful enough to contend with him had to constantly watch their backs for the number of other people and agencies who would happily throw them under the bus to get closer to Hitler. One of my favourite anecdotes about this is that two of Himmler's deputies plotted to kill his masseuse because the guy was getting too much face time with him. Himmler found out and put a stop to it but that was the level of paranoia and disunity going on. A more important example would be the Graf Zeppelin, the Nazi aircraft carrier. Given the importance of aircraft carriers in WW2 you may be surprised you haven't heard of it. It spent the entirety of the war in a nearly completed state on the Kiel canal mainly because Goering (head of the Luftwaffe) deeply resented the idea of a fleet air arm being created, something which would have undercut his powerbase. my dad posted:It also backfired spectacularly.
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Sep 27, 2013 13:32
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Ahh gently caress, now I really want to hear the nitty gritty details. e: talking about Italian fascism I mean. Frostwerks fucked around with this message at 14:04 on Sep 27, 2013 |
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Sep 27, 2013 14:00
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Frostwerks posted:Ahh gently caress, now I really want to hear the nitty gritty details. Very briefly, with the excuse of not wanting unions to obstruct the war machine against the Nazis (something I don't think was ever likely) the US government worked with the Mafia to massively extend their control of Unions and dock territory in return for a guarantee x amount of material moved through the docks unobstructed each month. The real reason for support was the rollback against the progressive era that intensified after the war. This working relationship on the docks lead to someone, probably the OSS, realising that the Mafia, a body already well acquainted with smuggling and concealing weapons of various kinds, could be used to smuggle weapons to the Italian resistance and build a US friendly resistance faction given that a lot of the resistance were Communists or Socialists. Make no mistake though, while Mussolini was comically inept at pretty much everything he did get the Sicilian Mafia (I have no idea about how effective he was against mainland Mafias like the Ndrangheta or the Camorra) on the ropes and without US support they may well have been completely defeated. The US government, or at least parts of the US government, retained a working relationship with the Mafia at least into the 1950s, with a strong level of cooperation between the CIA and Cuba in their attempts to kill Fidel Castro.
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Sep 27, 2013 14:50
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