Trainchat - The failure of privatisation in the British Railway

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mfcrocker: Jan 31, 2004; Hot Rope Guy

Lofty132 posted:

Authorities claiming the derailed Nuclear Flask Train at Barrow had empty flasks anyway, I would have thought the police would have sufficed rather than the army in that case?

It'll just be standard procedure, which is fine. Someone needs to have special training and I don't really care if it's members of the police or the armed forces.

I'm glad they're doing well at responding to these things now; I remember when I was working at a nuke plant they had a drill for "vehicle transporting nuclear waste has accident" and it took emergency services hours to get there :ohdear:

# ? Sep 17, 2013 11:24

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# ? May 20, 2024 19:52

Olewithmilk: Jun 30, 2006; What?

I was at a train station passenger lounge and decided to charge my phone for 10 minutes on one of the numerous spare plug sockets in the place. I was just getting up for my train and some guy sat next to me and asked if I'd gotten permission to use it. I told him no and, long story short, he said he was going to report me for "theft of electricity". I invited him to do so and gave him my name and partial address. I got on my train, saw that the guy had moved into the chair I was sitting in and was on his phone, inspecting the plug socket. I'm doing big laughs at the image of the police chuckling at him down the phone but I also am mad at myself for getting wound up and giving him my name. Am I danger of getting a visits from the British Transport Police or should I carry on laughing?

# ? Sep 23, 2013 13:49

Cerv: Sep 14, 2004; This is a silly post with little news value.

Carry on laughing. He was taking the piss.

And in future don't give you name or address to anyone without cause.

# ? Sep 23, 2013 14:06

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

In a statement that says more about local politics than it does about national politics, Ed Balls returns to making non-statements about High Speed 2:

Ed Balls Threatens To Kill Off 'Mismanaged' HS2 Rail Project posted:

Ed Balls has dropped the heaviest hint yet he would like to scrap the High Speed 2 rail project were Labour to win the next election, opening up a split at the top of the party.

The shadow chancellor told the Labour Party conference in Brighton on Monday afternoon that the HS2 line had been "totally mismanaged" by the coalition - leading its costs to reach �50bn.

"David Cameron and George Osborne have made clear they will go full steam ahead with this project � no matter how much the costs spiral up and up. They seem willing to put their own pride and vanity above best value for money for the taxpayer," he said.

"Labour will not take this irresponsible approach. So let me be clear, in tough times � when there is less money around and a big deficit to get down � there will be no blank cheque from me as a Labour Chancellor for this project or for any project.

He added:"Because the question is - not just whether a new High Speed line is a good idea or a bad idea, but whether it is the best way to spend �50 billion for the future of our country."

Balls' words are the harshest criticism yet for the project, which began life under the last Labour government.

His attack on the rail line, which the government argues is necessary to bridge the North/South divide as well as free up much needed rail capacity, appears to be at odds with recent statements by other senior Labour figures.

Just last week shadow transport secretary Maria Eagle told The Huffington Post UK that there was "no way other than building a new line" to deal with the nation's transport needs.

"None of those people who either object to specific routes or object to spending all of this money on building extra capacity into our railway system the can explain how they are going to deal with this capacity crunch," she said.

She added: "Ed Miliband, Ed Balls and I agree it needs to go ahead."

And while Eagle acknowledged there was "of course" a point where the project would cost to much to be worthwhile - she said there was "no reason" the line could not be delivered within the current �50bn budget. The figure Balls today questioned.

Lord Adonis, the Labour peer who was transport secretary when the rail project was conceived, said in August it would be an "act of national self-mutilation to cancel HS2". Writing in the New Statesman he said: "The case for High Speed Two is as strong now as when Labour committed itself to the project in March 2010."

Ed Balls' constituency is Morley and Outwood, which is half within Leeds and half within Wakefield. In 2010, Balls was the expected Portillo moment that didn't materialise, and his lack of meaningful statements on the matter may indicate concerns about his majority; Leeds City Council and West Yorkshire Metro are both fully in favour of the plans, and why wouldn't they be? They'll get the some of the biggest benefits from the line.

# ? Sep 23, 2013 15:23

twoot: Oct 29, 2012

For the last week or so Charing Cross station in Glasgow has completely reeked of shite. Don't breath through your nose levels of shite. There must be raw sewerage pouring into the tunnels somewhere.

My addition to trainchat.

twoot fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Sep 23, 2013

# ? Sep 23, 2013 16:14

hyper from Pixie Sticks: Sep 28, 2004

Olewithmilk posted:

I was at a train station passenger lounge and decided to charge my phone for 10 minutes on one of the numerous spare plug sockets in the place. I was just getting up for my train and some guy sat next to me and asked if I'd gotten permission to use it. I told him no and, long story short, he said he was going to report me for "theft of electricity". I invited him to do so and gave him my name and partial address. I got on my train, saw that the guy had moved into the chair I was sitting in and was on his phone, inspecting the plug socket. I'm doing big laughs at the image of the police chuckling at him down the phone but I also am mad at myself for getting wound up and giving him my name. Am I danger of getting a visits from the British Transport Police or should I carry on laughing?

Nothing will come of it.

If it happens again, tell them your phone was overcharged and you were depositing electricity back onto the grid. Keep a straight face and insist that's how it works no matter how much they protest.

# ? Sep 23, 2013 16:21

zonar: Jan 4, 2012; That was a BAD business decision!

Despite the headline, Balls doesn't really say that he opposes or dislikes HS2, but that he thinks the coalition has done it wrong, which isn't a massive surprise.

I remain not an expert on HS2, but it seems like at least a step in the right direction if it'll alleviate pressure on the West Coast Main Line. As the Demand Nothing article says, there are better things to do, but they'd be less headline-grabbing than HS2 is, and we're unlikely to see a transport minister who'll do smaller things to improve the railway system overall than an expensive and fancy system.

I do like how that article says �30 billion, but I'm sure there's articles which pin the HS2 cost as lower than that.

# ? Sep 23, 2013 21:33

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

Allan Assiduity posted:

Despite the headline, Balls doesn't really say that he opposes or dislikes HS2, but that he thinks the coalition has done it wrong, which isn't a massive surprise.

I remain not an expert on HS2, but it seems like at least a step in the right direction if it'll alleviate pressure on the West Coast Main Line. As the Demand Nothing article says, there are better things to do, but they'd be less headline-grabbing than HS2 is, and we're unlikely to see a transport minister who'll do smaller things to improve the railway system overall than an expensive and fancy system.

I do like how that article says �30 billion, but I'm sure there's articles which pin the HS2 cost as lower than that.

Bring Adonis back. He was actually competent and knew what he was doing.

And hey, he got Wakefield Kirkgate and Halifax upgraded after years of neglect. He gets props in my book.

# ? Sep 23, 2013 21:41

Brovine: Dec 24, 2011; Mooooo?

I think HS2 in a nutshell comes down to:

Many other options > HS2 > nothing

And "nothing" is probably what we'd have on the agenda right now if we didn't have HS2, not those other better things. Given that choice, I'd go for HS2.

# ? Sep 23, 2013 22:19

Overminty: Mar 16, 2010; You may wonder what I am doing while reading your posts..

Could you (or anyone) go into a bit more detail about those other options? Genuinely curious. Apologies as I'm sure it's been talked about before ad nauseam.

# ? Sep 23, 2013 22:56

coffeetable: Feb 5, 2006; TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREAT BRITAIN WOULD BE IF IT WAS RULED BY THE MERCILESS JACKBOOT OF PRINCE CHARLES

YES I DO TALK TO PLANTS ACTUALLY

Overminty posted:

Could you (or anyone) go into a bit more detail about those other options? Genuinely curious. Apologies as I'm sure it's been talked about before ad nauseam.

The central problem in my eyes is that HS2 supposes more people should be working in London. �42bn of investment in the North would go a long way towards correcting the brain drain half the country suffers.

# ? Sep 23, 2013 23:06

nozz: Jan 27, 2007; proficient pringle eater

The best "other option" would probably be a 150mph 2-track WCML relief line, built to a loading gauge equal to that of HS1, with stations in similar locations to HS2 and a connection to HS1. This would achieve 70% of HS2's goals at a much lower price... but there would never be any political will to build something like that. At the very least there is no real reason to go for a 250mph high speed line, 200mph would be fine.

# ? Sep 23, 2013 23:34

Cerv: Sep 14, 2004; This is a silly post with little news value.

coffeetable posted:

The central problem in my eyes is that HS2 supposes more people should be working in London. �42bn of investment in the North would go a long way towards correcting the brain drain half the country suffers.

HS2 is investment in the North.

# ? Sep 23, 2013 23:36

goddamnedtwisto: Dec 31, 2004; If you ask me about the mole people in the London Underground, I WILL be forced to kill you; Fun Shoe

coffeetable posted:

The central problem in my eyes is that HS2 supposes more people should be working in London. �42bn of investment in the North would go a long way towards correcting the brain drain half the country suffers.

Which would have a pretty big positive effect on London's transport systems too. I really don't see how it's actually to London's advantage if people have to move from Edinburgh or Liverpool or Manchester down to London to work, because you then end up in a situation where any possible extra revenue they bring is completely wiped out by the stupendous expense of things like Crossrail, which is only likely to make things worse in the long run.

I'd not really realised just how bad the situation had got for commuters, until I recently had to get to Bloomsbury for an 11am meeting (which required being suited and booted so the bike was out, unfortunately) and the Central Line at Bank at 10 o'clock in the morning was like a vision of hell. I have no loving clue how people stick that day after day, there's no amount of money you could pay me to get onto one of those trains - and that's an hour after rush hour was supposed to have finished!

(Mind you i did wonder how many people on that train, especially those cramming on at Bank, were actually going much further than I was - when I did used to commute by tube the CL trains were normally empty by Holborn, the majority o those people could have had a pleasant 20 minute stroll down to St Pauls rather than death by armpit - I knew it was only a half hour walk to where I was going so that's what i did. Harry Beck's map has seriously skewed a lot of people's perception of London's geography badly, I'm sure most non-natives would be astonished to find out how close together, say, Aldgate, Liverpool Street, Moorgate and Bank stations are. Maybe the solution to London's transport problems is just to return to the old geographic Tube maps...)

# ? Sep 23, 2013 23:48

kingturnip: Apr 18, 2008

goddamnedtwisto posted:

(Mind you i did wonder how many people on that train, especially those cramming on at Bank, were actually going much further than I was - when I did used to commute by tube the CL trains were normally empty by Holborn, the majority o those people could have had a pleasant 20 minute stroll down to St Pauls rather than death by armpit - I knew it was only a half hour walk to where I was going so that's what i did. Harry Beck's map has seriously skewed a lot of people's perception of London's geography badly, I'm sure most non-natives would be astonished to find out how close together, say, Aldgate, Liverpool Street, Moorgate and Bank stations are. Maybe the solution to London's transport problems is just to return to the old geographic Tube maps...)

The issue, I think, is that most people don't want to spend any longer on their commute than they absolutely have to. Walking between stations can be pretty quick, but as long as there aren't any delays, it's still quicker to get the Tube than it is to walk.
However, since my train is only once every 30 minutes, if there's no realistic chance of getting it, I'll happily have a walk.

# ? Sep 24, 2013 09:23

Olewithmilk: Jun 30, 2006; What?

Cerv posted:

Carry on laughing. He was taking the piss.

And in future don't give you name or address to anyone without cause.

OK! I do feel real dumb about doing that, but he managed to push all my buttons all at once.

Semprini posted:

Nothing will come of it.

If it happens again, tell them your phone was overcharged and you were depositing electricity back onto the grid. Keep a straight face and insist that's how it works no matter how much they protest.

Haha! Ok, the guy seemed really worked up about it so maybe I'll see him there waiting for me next time and I can do this.

# ? Sep 24, 2013 09:30

Bozza: Mar 5, 2004; "I'm a really useful engine!"

Gat posted:

The best "other option" would probably be a 150mph 2-track WCML relief line, built to a loading gauge equal to that of HS1, with stations in similar locations to HS2 and a connection to HS1. This would achieve 70% of HS2's goals at a much lower price... but there would never be any political will to build something like that. At the very least there is no real reason to go for a 250mph high speed line, 200mph would be fine.

This is the correct answer. A 140/150mph alignment is easy to achieve with the components we use for 125mph railways, build the thing to GB+ or a larger continental loading gauge and you're away. This is off the shelf stuff that we already do in the UK so have the expertise to design and build to these sorts of speeds, requiring no massive development process and/or import of skills.

None of that moving block shite I believe they are proposing for HS2 either. Nice, standard, purist ETCS Level 2.

# ? Sep 24, 2013 11:29

goddamnedtwisto: Dec 31, 2004; If you ask me about the mole people in the London Underground, I WILL be forced to kill you; Fun Shoe

Bozza posted:

This is the correct answer. A 140/150mph alignment is easy to achieve with the components we use for 125mph railways, build the thing to GB+ or a larger continental loading gauge and you're away. This is off the shelf stuff that we already do in the UK so have the expertise to design and build to these sorts of speeds, requiring no massive development process and/or import of skills.

None of that moving block shite I believe they are proposing for HS2 either. Nice, standard, purist ETCS Level 2.

Is there not something to be said for pushing the boundaries of what's doable? Surely that's to our long-term advantage even if it ends up being more expensive and less reliable in the short-term. That's how we got - well, just about everything good on the British railway network.

# ? Sep 24, 2013 11:51

Reveilled: Apr 19, 2007; Take up your rifles

Olewithmilk posted:

I was at a train station passenger lounge and decided to charge my phone for 10 minutes on one of the numerous spare plug sockets in the place. I was just getting up for my train and some guy sat next to me and asked if I'd gotten permission to use it. I told him no and, long story short, he said he was going to report me for "theft of electricity". I invited him to do so and gave him my name and partial address. I got on my train, saw that the guy had moved into the chair I was sitting in and was on his phone, inspecting the plug socket. I'm doing big laughs at the image of the police chuckling at him down the phone but I also am mad at myself for getting wound up and giving him my name. Am I danger of getting a visits from the British Transport Police or should I carry on laughing?

Regardless of the fact that you have nothing to worry about because nobody is going to care about "theft of electricity via mobile phone charger", wouldn't your ticket constitute permission to use it? I'd assume in your position that I had permission to use it on the basis that when you purchase a ticket you are entitled to take advantage of the various amenities provided to you as part of your journey. You are entitled to sit in the passenger lounge, sit down on the train, use the train's toilet, the luggage racks, the train's Wi-Fi if you happen to be on a train that has it etc. Some of the things on the train and the track are not to be used by passengers, or are only to be used in emergencies, and every single one of those things has a sign that says "emergency use only", "staff only" or "penalty for improper use". The plug socket doesn't have those signs, so it's an amenity of the station or train provided at least partially for the convenience of passengers.

# ? Sep 24, 2013 11:52

Rude Dude With Tude: Apr 19, 2007; Your President approves this text.

kingturnip posted:

The issue, I think, is that most people don't want to spend any longer on their commute than they absolutely have to. Walking between stations can be pretty quick, but as long as there aren't any delays, it's still quicker to get the Tube than it is to walk.
However, since my train is only once every 30 minutes, if there's no realistic chance of getting it, I'll happily have a walk.

This is true, though my commute is 20 minutes longer than it could be, because I walk from Charing Cross to my office rather than get the tube (also because it saves me ~�15 a week as I get a my house - London terminals season ticket rather than a Z1-2 travelcard)

# ? Sep 24, 2013 12:29

Quinntan: Sep 11, 2013

Count your blessings, lads. At least ye don't have to deal with Irish Rail.

# ? Sep 24, 2013 12:57

Bozza: Mar 5, 2004; "I'm a really useful engine!"

goddamnedtwisto posted:

Is there not something to be said for pushing the boundaries of what's doable? Surely that's to our long-term advantage even if it ends up being more expensive and less reliable in the short-term. That's how we got - well, just about everything good on the British railway network.

I do agree with you partially. A lot of the work done by BR Research, for example, helped develop a lot of the technology we rely on today and only worked through trial and error, proper R&D stuff.

However, I think the case against (in this instance) is that 250mph running is largely pointless. Brum and London aren't far enough apart to justify it, and given the larger argument is regarding capacity, building a high speed (ie 140mph alignment) rather than very high speed alignment (ie 200mph+) is simply better economics.

If this was France, with longer distances between cities, I think the case could be made, but what we essentially want is a "motorway network" of higher speed lines which can relieve the pressure from the existing main lines by bypassing bottlenecks in the conventional network.

# ? Sep 24, 2013 13:06

ANYTHING YOU SOW: Nov 7, 2009

On the ATOC website there's this press release:

http://www.atoc.org/media-centre/la...-to-government/

Which this telegraph article was based on:

Telegraph posted:

Britain's railways are back in the black for the first time since privatisation was set in motion 20 years ago, figures show.

Train companies collectively pay more to the Government than they receive in subsidies to operate the railways, although some individual lines do remain loss-making.

The figures have been produced today by the Association of Train Operating Companies (Atoc), based on an analysis of figures released by the rail regulator.
They show that train operators have paid the Government a balance of �256m in 2012-13. Ten years ago they were being propped up with an annual �1.4bn of taxpayer subsidies, according to the Office of Rail Regulation, but that has now been reduced to �957m.

Train operators say the change has come about predominantly from growth in the number of people using the railways and insisted the boost was not as a result of increases in fares. A record 1.5bn train journeys were made in 2012-13, the highest since the Twenties.

"While significant amounts are still being invested in rail infrastructure, for the first time, train operators taken together are returning more money to Government than they receive," said Michael Roberts, chief executive of Atoc. "This means taxpayers are over �1.6bn better off than 11 years ago � equivalent to �62 for every household in Britain.

"Significant investment and an industry focused on attracting more rail users are generating passenger growth unseen for 80 years. This in turn is producing record levels of revenue allowing Government to cut significantly the subsidies it pays to train companies."
Train companies are generating an extra �3.2bn in passenger revenue compared to 10 years ago � 96pc of which comes from passenger growth and just 4pc from fare increases, Atoc claims.

Opponents of privatisation seized on the figures as proof it has failed since it was set in motion in 1993, when John Major�s Conservative Government approved an Act that would allow rail franchises to be let to private sector operators.
Bob Crow, general secretary of the RMT transport union, said: "A generation of rail privatisation has been a multi-billion pound rip-off leaving British passengers paying the highest fares in Europe to travel on overcrowded and clapped out trains. Atoc are openly admitting that for 20 years they have been robbing the taxpayer for bungs and corporate welfare which has been a one way ticket to the bank for their members."
Unions and the Labour Party are campaigning for the East Coast Main Line, which was renationalised in 2009, to remain in public hands as a benchmark for judging the performance of private sector operators.

Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin has prioritised returning the East Cost line to private hands before the general election, rather than re-letting other franchises such as London-to-Scotland West Coast services and the London-to-Cardiff Great Western line.
Atoc denied the figures were an admission of failure. It said the railways were deep in the red before the process of privatisation between 1993 and 1997 and that train operators had succeeded in significantly boosting passenger numbers.

But these figures don't agree with the government's:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/230644/rail-subsidy-indicator.xls

Which give a Total train operator subsidy without network grant of �-968.1m

and a Total subsidy with network grant of �2,233.1m

Am I missing something, does anyone how ATOC's claims can be justified?

Did they just make them up and the telegraph reprinted them without question?

# ? Sep 24, 2013 20:41

Jonnty: Aug 2, 2007; The enemy has become a flaming star!

Bozza posted:

I do agree with you partially. A lot of the work done by BR Research, for example, helped develop a lot of the technology we rely on today and only worked through trial and error, proper R&D stuff.

However, I think the case against (in this instance) is that 250mph running is largely pointless. Brum and London aren't far enough apart to justify it, and given the larger argument is regarding capacity, building a high speed (ie 140mph alignment) rather than very high speed alignment (ie 200mph+) is simply better economics.

If this was France, with longer distances between cities, I think the case could be made, but what we essentially want is a "motorway network" of higher speed lines which can relieve the pressure from the existing main lines by bypassing bottlenecks in the conventional network.

What's going to happen when we want to extend the line to Scotland and realise that 150mph isn't much more competitive against domestic air travel than 125?

# ? Sep 24, 2013 21:19

Bozza: Mar 5, 2004; "I'm a really useful engine!"

Jonnty posted:

What's going to happen when we want to extend the line to Scotland and realise that 150mph isn't much more competitive against domestic air travel than 125?

You play to your strengths - no hassle with security, convenient city centre location of stations, better freedom of movement on that service, better frequency of service and overall comparable journey time (if you factor in travel to/from the airport, waits and security check time).

Yeah, high(er) speed sells some of this better, but a lot of the benefits are more inherent in rail than high speed exclusively.

vv also this

Bozza fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Sep 24, 2013

# ? Sep 24, 2013 22:07

Cerv: Sep 14, 2004; This is a silly post with little news value.

And ban short haul flights

# ? Sep 24, 2013 22:13

Bobstar: Feb 8, 2006; KartooshFace, you are not responding efficiently!

Cerv posted:

And ban short haul flights

This is true.

However, Bozza help out here, what would you have to do to the rail system in this country to absorb everyone currently flying up and down the country?

# ? Sep 24, 2013 22:20

Lord of the Llamas: Jul 9, 2002; EULER'VE TO SEE IT VENN SOMEONE CALLS IT THE WRONG THING AND PROVOKES MY WRATH

Bobstar posted:

This is true.

However, Bozza help out here, what would you have to do to the rail system in this country to absorb everyone currently flying up and down the country?

Make it cheaper and build new connections that are not just on the East Coast Mainline. For example; I live in Edinburgh and going to London by train is by far my preferred option when it isn't obviously more of a rip off than just flying down (which if you can't book far in advance isn't a guarantee even including transport to/from the airports) but if you're going somewhere else it can be a nightmare. If I'm going to Bedford to visit friends then the only decent option I have is to fly to Luton otherwise I'm getting the train down to London and then back up to Bedford at increased cost and massively increased time.

# ? Sep 24, 2013 23:58

Endjinneer: Aug 17, 2005; Fallen Rib

coffeetable posted:

The central problem in my eyes is that HS2 supposes more people should be working in London. �42bn of investment in the North would go a long way towards correcting the brain drain half the country suffers.

I really don't buy this argument against HS2.
My friends whose brains drained into London didn't relocate because the journey was easy, they went and stayed because it was hard.
From (admittedly statistically irrelevant) personal experience, the rapid rail journey from home to the capital means I can work successfully on London projects from a base in the provinces. I earn money on Crossrail but I spend it in Settle.

London will always get investment, because investment begets itself- we invest in better transport links, which allow more workers in, so we build more offices for the workers, which need better transport links... and so on. Regardless of whether that runaway expansion is right, it happens, and HS2 would allow a lot more people to tap London work but spend their earnings somewhere else.

# ? Sep 25, 2013 00:28

thehustler: Apr 17, 2004; I am very curious about this little crescendo

ANYTHING YOU SOW posted:

On the ATOC website there's this press release:

http://www.atoc.org/media-centre/la...-to-government/

Which this telegraph article was based on:

But these figures don't agree with the government's:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/230644/rail-subsidy-indicator.xls

Which give a Total train operator subsidy without network grant of �-968.1m

and a Total subsidy with network grant of �2,233.1m

Am I missing something, does anyone how ATOC's claims can be justified?

Did they just make them up and the telegraph reprinted them without question?

Can I suggest you get in contact with FullFact on Twitter, or via their website? They eat this kind of stuff up and it could be pretty embarrassing for ATOC if they were to follow it up.

# ? Sep 25, 2013 09:30

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

Incidentally, we've discovered the real intent of the Lobbying bill: to stifle anti-HS2 dissent.

quote:

MPs have taken the first step towards making the current activities of the Stop HS2 campaign illegal, by voting by 300 votes to 249 for the Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill on Tuesday. Not only could this bill see the current level of Stop HS2 activities become illegal from May 2014, it could well cut access to the Parliamentary process, or at least limit what people can say and do when petitioning the Parliamentary Joint Committee which would be considering the HS2 Hybrid Bill at that time. Parliamentary insiders have told Stop HS2 that Part 2 of the bill, the bit that turns this piece of legislation into a �Gagging Bill� is, besides being generally aimed a trade unions, specifically aimed at gagging Stop HS2, along with 38 Degrees and the National Union of Students in the run-up to the 2015 General Election.

The Gagging Bill would seek to limit the amount of money that can be spent in the entire year running up to a General Election, not per organisation, but across all organisations both nationally and per constituency, which are working together toward the same end. While it might be unlikely that �390,000 would be spent nationally on the Stop HS2 campaign as a whole, there would be a limit of �9,750 per Parliamentary constituency, with regulation being compulsory for all �third party� bodies opposing HS2 once �5,000 is spent between them. The Gagging Bill sets to limit the amount of money which could be used on �election purposes�, with the problem stemming from changing the definition of what �election purposes� consists of.

According to the Electoral Commission who would have to regulate the Gagging Bill, activities and items which could be done for �election purposes� would be:

Advertising, including placards and banners.
Leaflets.
Websites and blogs.
Unsolicited material sent to voters (i.e. newsletters).
Rallies, demonstrations and other events.
Manifestos and documents discussing policies of political parties.
Market research and canvassing.
Media work.
Transport for the purpose of obtaining publicity.
All relevant costs are regulated, including staff costs.
Now you might be excused for thinking that this is about what political parties do, but it�s not. In fact it might not be any surprise to know that the rules for political parties aren�t as strict, for example it is apparently �too difficult� for them to attribute staff costs, and political parties are allowed to spend �30,000 per constituency, to a maximum of �19.5m. The list above mentions the things which could be done for �election purposes�, but what would make those activities �for election purposes� under the terms of the Gagging Bill is if they were considered to be:

promoting electoral success for
one or more specific parties
parties who do/do not advocate particular policies
candidates who do/do not advocate particular policies
otherwise enhancing (or undermining) the standing of such parties or candidates
a course of conduct may constitute the doing of one of those things even though it does not involve any express mention being made of the name of any party or candidate
There is no question that the Stop HS2 campaign falls within these definitions. The Green Party, UKIP and Plaid Cymru all oppose HS2 as it is proposed, as do some individual politicians and party associations from the three main parties. Saying HS2 should be stopped is, under these terms, without question promoting their policy stance, at the same time as it would be considered an attempt to undermine the position of other parties or politicians. As shown above, it would not matter if names of parties or candidates are not mentioned, just the saying �Stop HS2� would be enough, because some candidates in the General Election would agree and some would not. The last set of council elections saw both UKIP and The Green Party make gains, which commentators accepted were in part connected to their positions of opposition to HS2, thus influencing the outcome of the election, and of course the year before saw an Independent win on a Stop HS2 ticket.

It gets worse. The legislation as proposed doesn�t cover individual organisations campaigning for or against something, but all organisations within a coalition campaigning for or against something. The requirement will be that each coalition member, no matter how small, has to report the entire coalition spend and register with the Electoral Commission if the entire coalition spend exceeds �5,000. That�s not on a constituency, but on a national basis. If the entire coalition spend exceeds �390,000 nationally, or far more likely �9,750 per constituency in the entire year before a General Election, a criminal offence will have taken place.

For example, in Warwickshire there are only two Parliamentary constituencies affected directly by the route of HS2: North Warwickshire and Kenilworth & Southam. In Kenilworth & Southam, there are a total of 11 action groups. If they were the only groups fighting HS2 in the constituency, they would only be able to spend an average of �886 each for the entire year under what is proposed. However, there are also county-wide organisations opposing HS2: Warwickshire Wildlife Trust and CPRE Warwickshire, who have worked with the action groups, so would therefore each have to apportion half of their HS2 related costs to that constituency, as there are two constituencies in the county directly impacted by the route of HS2. All of the costs apportioned to fighting HS2 in any constituency would have to be agglomerated, whether that be printing leaflets, travel costs, holding public meetings, website costs, signs and placards as well as the costs of any staff time from the professional organisations spent on work which could be seen to be aimed at fighting HS2.

It is certain that current spending levels across some constituencies will be over �9,750 per annum on what will in the future be deemed to be �election purposes�. The Gagging Bill would mean that all spending for all groups fighting HS2 up and down the country would have to be added, and that the total cost of this could not exceed �390,000 otherwise a criminal act would have taken place, but with over 100 action groups opposing HS2 to start off with before you add in the NGOs, other organisations and national Stop HS2 bodies, determining whose fault it is would be a legal nightmare. Basically, the whole thing has not been thought through, as it is totally unworkable.

You may think it couldn�t possibly get worse than that, but it does. If the Parliamentary schedule for HS2 is stuck to, or even if it is a bit late as expected, the Gagging Bill would cover some activities relating to the HS2 Hybrid Bill. Whilst attending parliamentary committees isn�t in itself regulated, doing media work around evidence sessions could be. Additionally, petitioners could fall foul of the Gagging Bill, if they made any analysis of or reference to party policies or politicians stances on HS2. So, as an example, if the Woodland Trust were to simply mention that: �HS2 is not environmentally sound�, (which could be seen to advocate the position of The Green Party), or simply to try and get some press coverage around their evidence, then their travel as well as the staff costs of drawing up their evidence may have to be included in the total spend �for election purposes�.

However, the Electoral Commission who seem to be very reluctant regulators as things stand, aren�t sure if reactive media work, i.e. not sending out a press release, but giving a comment after a media organisation rings up for a comment would count. The reality is that in this situation, sending a press release would be a moot point, as it would be almost completely impossible for any organisation or individual petitioning the Joint Committee to avoid �enhancing or undermining the standing of parties or candidates who do/do not advocate HS2�.

Stop HS2 Campaign Manager, Joe Rukin said:

�To hear that Stop HS2 was one of the organisations the Government were thinking about silencing when they wrote their Gagging Law is massively scary for all of us, but we�ve also got to see it as a compliment, that we have been so effective in just three years that the Government wants to make what we have been doing illegal!�

�There is a public mood to clamp down on back room lobbying and deals involving dodgy connections from those with vested interests, like the fact George Osborne�s father in law is both working within Government and for a high-speed rail firm, or maybe appointing the chair of construction giant Laing O�Rourke to an �independent� HS2 taskforce, but the Government has decided to continue to let them get away with it. Instead, they are taking the opportunity to clamp down on freedom of speech from grass roots organisations they don�t like, whilst claiming this is all about �transparency�. We are called �Stop HS2�, and have t-shirts, car stickers, websites and placards that say �Stop HS2�, what could be more transparent than that? The only thing that is more transparent is the way vested interest groups who will make money from HS2 are being allowed to lobby for it at the heart of a hypocritical Government.�

�This Gagging Bill is just all wrong. You could not have something more opposed to the principle of free speech. The Government don�t like what we have been saying so they want to make our activities illegal, and want to have a whole year when people can�t say too many bad things about them. This piece of legislation could effectively limit what people can say to a Parliamentary committee, if that isn�t Orwellian censorship, I don�t know what is. Grass roots campaigns groups exist to change politicians� opinions, but they are saying that the only people allowed to effectively campaign before elections are politicians. This Gagging Bill is insane, it�s rotten to the core, and it must be opposed. Forget HS2, this is about anyone to having the inalienable right to say they think what a Government is doing is wrong for a whole year before an election, it must be stopped for all our sakes.�

�Our problem is that our continued campaign might be seen as affecting the next election, and we have already seen that people have gone to the ballot box with HS2 in their minds. No-one would have thought that in the last council elections that the safe Conservative seat of Aylesbury would turn into a UKIP-Tory marginal overnight, and no-one would have thought that the leader of Warwickshire County Council would have lost to the Greens, but both of those things happened and HS2 played it�s part. The last thing the Government want is people making them look bad by pointing out the truth when all we should be getting hypnotised into them our votes.�

An e-petition can be signed here, and additionally an UPDATED letter on the campaigning website 38 Degrees, which is also threatened by this Gagging Bill, for you to send to your MP can be signed here.

Click here to read the latyest briefing from the Electoral Commission on the Gagging Bill.

# ? Sep 25, 2013 20:51

Jonnty: Aug 2, 2007; The enemy has become a flaming star!

Bozza posted:

You play to your strengths - no hassle with security, convenient city centre location of stations, better freedom of movement on that service, better frequency of service and overall comparable journey time (if you factor in travel to/from the airport, waits and security check time).

Yeah, high(er) speed sells some of this better, but a lot of the benefits are more inherent in rail than high speed exclusively.

vv also this

I just don't really understand why everyone's been bemoaning us not getting on the high speed bandwagon back in the 80s and that now we have the chance they've suddenly decided that fast trains aren't important all of a sudden. I realise the main argument is capacity, but to make it work you need the speed as well. Sure, 250mph isn't necessary but we may at least plan the route to allow for it - how much would we actually save by reducing that, and how much might we regret it in 30 years?

Endjinneer posted:

I really don't buy this argument against HS2.
My friends whose brains drained into London didn't relocate because the journey was easy, they went and stayed because it was hard.
From (admittedly statistically irrelevant) personal experience, the rapid rail journey from home to the capital means I can work successfully on London projects from a base in the provinces. I earn money on Crossrail but I spend it in Settle.

London will always get investment, because investment begets itself- we invest in better transport links, which allow more workers in, so we build more offices for the workers, which need better transport links... and so on. Regardless of whether that runaway expansion is right, it happens, and HS2 would allow a lot more people to tap London work but spend their earnings somewhere else.

Yeah - I have sympathy with the London-centric argument but the truth is that built anywhere else it would just cause massive bottlenecks at either end and make everyone beg for an extension to London as soon as possible. At least they're used to having huge numbers of people suddenly dumped on them every morning.

# ? Sep 30, 2013 20:14

Farecoal: Oct 15, 2011; There he go

Jonnty posted:

yet most of them could barely make a profit.

LMS (the largest) never made a profit, it had so much debt from one of the companies it inherited.

# ? Oct 1, 2013 07:46

Nintendo Kid: Aug 4, 2011; by Smythe

The HS2 requirements include right of way and stations being built to a more normal and larger structure gauge as compared to the typical british narrow and short one, right?

# ? Oct 1, 2013 18:52

nozz: Jan 27, 2007; proficient pringle eater

Install Windows posted:

The HS2 requirements include right of way and stations being built to a more normal and larger structure gauge as compared to the typical british narrow and short one, right?

Yeah, like HS1 was, even though right now nothing makes use of the larger gauge on HS1. The main benefit is that HS1 and HS2 can accommodate double decker trains, something that cannot happen on the UK rail network even though its desperately needed. My proposes WCML relief line would also be this larger gauge. Its something that is prohibitively. expensive to retrofit onto existing lines.

# ? Oct 1, 2013 21:21

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

Install Windows posted:

The HS2 requirements include right of way and stations being built to a more normal and larger structure gauge as compared to the typical british narrow and short one, right?

The specification for HS2 is GC loading gauge. For comparison, most key freight routes are supposed to be at least W10, which I believe is between GA and GB:

TinTower fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Oct 1, 2013

# ? Oct 1, 2013 21:30

Bacon Terrorist: May 7, 2010; to ride eternal, shiny and chrome

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2022

Reveilled posted:

Regardless of the fact that you have nothing to worry about because nobody is going to care about "theft of electricity via mobile phone charger", wouldn't your ticket constitute permission to use it? I'd assume in your position that I had permission to use it on the basis that when you purchase a ticket you are entitled to take advantage of the various amenities provided to you as part of your journey. You are entitled to sit in the passenger lounge, sit down on the train, use the train's toilet, the luggage racks, the train's Wi-Fi if you happen to be on a train that has it etc. Some of the things on the train and the track are not to be used by passengers, or are only to be used in emergencies, and every single one of those things has a sign that says "emergency use only", "staff only" or "penalty for improper use". The plug socket doesn't have those signs, so it's an amenity of the station or train provided at least partially for the convenience of passengers.

Your ticket guarantees you travel and nothing else, not even a seat. I have to use this line on a regular basis with our single 153 carriage services, always fun.

I've heard major time table changes in December can already be found on the Internet but my google-fu has failed me. Any of you crazy kids know where I would find such golden information for a member of train crew like myself?

# ? Oct 2, 2013 22:08

lets go swimming: Sep 6, 2012; EAT THE CHEESE, NICHOLSON!

Lofty132 posted:

I've heard major time table changes in December can already be found on the Internet but my google-fu has failed me. Any of you crazy kids know where I would find such golden information for a member of train crew like myself?

OpenTrainTimes and RealTimeTrains have got the new timetable changes through their "trains at [station]" service

Here's the link someone posted on the RailUK forums, apparently Stourbridge Junction's got a different service pattern:
http://www.opentraintimes.com/location/SBJ/2013-12-09/0000-2359
Here's the RTT page of the same station because RTT is better imo:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/SBJ/2013/12/09/0000-2359

Change the 3 character station code to see if there's any changes at your local station

lets go swimming fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Oct 3, 2013

# ? Oct 3, 2013 01:23

Anghammarad: Jan 3, 2010; Ruining your domestic car industry since 1968

Lofty132 posted:

Your ticket guarantees you travel and nothing else, not even a seat. I have to use this line on a regular basis with our single 153 carriage services, always fun.

I've heard major time table changes in December can already be found on the Internet but my google-fu has failed me. Any of you crazy kids know where I would find such golden information for a member of train crew like myself?

Start making friends with your fleet planners, and get them to sling you a copy of the carriage working notice for your units. If you can get added to the distribution for the altered CWNs as well, you'll be more accurate than any third party website could be

# ? Oct 3, 2013 08:50

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# ? May 20, 2024 19:52

Rude Dude With Tude: Apr 19, 2007; Your President approves this text.

This is old news, but according to politicalbetting.com re-privatising the East Coast mainline looks like an election winner.

Or not.

# ? Oct 3, 2013 17:02

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Trainchat - The failure of privatisation in the British Railway

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