Bad w/ Money: I just paid for a fat bitches Electric Cock Zapping Sex Toy in Kentucky

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Quantum Mechanic: Apr 25, 2010; Just another fuckwit who thrives on fake moral outrage.
Waaaah the Christians are out to get me

lol abbottsgonnawin

Social mobility in the US is dropping and has been dropping for some time. It's a straight fact that the biggest indicator of your future wealth is the socio-economic status of your parents. There's significant amounts of evidence that long-term poverty has as deleterious an effect on decision-making abilities as intoxication. I'd really suggest you guys hang around D&D for a little while and read some of the threads on poverty, it might be an eye-opener.

# ? Sep 28, 2013 10:01

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# ? May 14, 2024 18:47

Rudager: Apr 29, 2008

Lightning Zwei posted:

However, people born into poverty who choose to value their own educations and are ambitious enough can break out of poverty and rise above their surroundings.

This is wrong in so many ways. The bottom line is education costs money, and even once you get educated it doesn't go anywhere near guaranteeing you a job to pay for it in the end. There's plenty people with degrees working minimum wage jobs who prove this.

I worked my way through University, but the only reason I could is because I live in Australia where the government gave me a zero interest loan on my tertiary education (and heavily subsidised it before that) and didn't want me to pay them back until I was earning a wage in the 40k+ region.

Switchback posted:

I was as good a liberal hippie as the rest of us here. Went to a liberal arts school where we discussed these institutional problems and how it's not their fault! The system!

Then I worked offshore, followed by moving across the world. Offshore, you get people from Philippines/Malaysia/wherever that work twice as hard as the white people, they make an order of magnitude less money (literally), and are on a boat away from their families for 11 months out of the year. They have better attitudes than the European assholes on board that bitch about everything, but get equal time off and double salary plus hazard pay.

It's all about some perspective... on this planet, if you want to work hard, you can. I have little sympathy for this "but the institution!" card. The American Dream is very much alive, you just aren't entitled to it. It requires a lot of hard work.

I work in an industry that relies on alot of imported labour because it's hard, dirty, disgusting work, and yet we get Asians on work visa's here who are from well off families that pay for everything, they buy them cars while their here and give them as much spending money as they can spend, and yet these workers still volunteer for every extra hour of overtime they can get and they bust their balls all day every day and ask for more at the end of it. Meanwhile the Australian workers are calling in sick every second day and doing just enough to keep their jobs.

You don't know it until you see it, but it really is just a totally different mindset.

# ? Sep 28, 2013 10:11

tuyop: Sep 15, 2006; Every second that we're not growing BASIL is a second wasted; Fun Shoe

Switchback posted:

Then I worked offshore, followed by moving across the world. Offshore, you get people from Philippines/Malaysia/wherever that work twice as hard as the white people, they make an order of magnitude less money (literally), and are on a boat away from their families for 11 months out of the year. They have better attitudes than the European assholes on board that bitch about everything, but get equal time off and double salary plus hazard pay.

It's all about some perspective... on this planet, if you want to work hard, you can. I have little sympathy for this "but the institution!" card. The American Dream is very much alive, you just aren't entitled to it. It requires a lot of hard work.

This is hilarious because your example actually proves the opposite point.

It doesn't matter how hard those SE Asian workers work, they're still making orders of magnitude less than the Europeans simply because they're SE Asian. There is no American Dream for those folks, there's just endless poverty or a constant limping struggle up to some sort of proto-middle class. The odds are that, regardless of agency, the former is what they'll get.

Now, imagine that those SE Asian workers offshore are a visible minority in the US, or women, or homosexuals, or the disabled, or even that their parents were just poor. A very similar phenomenon exists between the "rear end in a top hat Europeans" and Filipinos on your rig right here onshore in North America, the differences are just not as egregious.

tuyop fucked around with this message at 13:55 on Sep 28, 2013

# ? Sep 28, 2013 13:52

Nail Rat: Dec 29, 2000; You maniacs! You blew it up! God damn you! God damn you all to hell!!

Switchback posted:

I was as good a liberal hippie as the rest of us here. Went to a liberal arts school where we discussed these institutional problems and how it's not their fault! The system!

Then I worked offshore, followed by moving across the world. Offshore, you get people from Philippines/Malaysia/wherever that work twice as hard as the white people, they make an order of magnitude less money (literally), and are on a boat away from their families for 11 months out of the year. They have better attitudes than the European assholes on board that bitch about everything, but get equal time off and double salary plus hazard pay.

It's all about some perspective... on this planet, if you want to work hard, you can. I have little sympathy for this "but the institution!" card. The American Dream is very much alive, you just aren't entitled to it. It requires a lot of hard work.

Yeah those dumb poors should just work to get their employers rich, and gently caress em if they get sick. They should be happy they're not hunted for sport!

To contribute: my aunt was named the executor of my grandmother's estate because she was the oldest child. Earlier this year she locked my uncle and mother out of the accounts and said it was because it was "her job" and she didn't need to prove anything to them. Mind you, the estate's supposed to be split evenly three ways

Of course, eventually they ask for some documentation of where the money is. She provides a lovely spreadsheet, and when my mom(who works in an accounting department) goes over it, she realizes she had been fudging the numbers claiming she paid hundreds more on hospital bills than they really were, etc.

Long story short, it turns out my aunt blew through all the estate accounts, took out a 30k equity loan on my grandparents' house and blew through that, maxed out her husband's credit cards, cashed out her husband's 401k, cashed out all her own bank accounts and blew through that, and pawned all my grandmothers' jewelry. In ten months she blew through well over 500k and has her and her husband 200k in debt.

This was all spent on gambling. :psyduck:

Nail Rat fucked around with this message at 14:35 on Sep 28, 2013

# ? Sep 28, 2013 14:25

cstine: Apr 15, 2004; What's in the box?!?

Nail Rat posted:

Yeah those dumb poors should just work to get their employers rich, and gently caress em if they get sick. They should be happy they're not hunted for sport!

To contribute: my aunt was named the executor of my grandmother's estate because she was the oldest child. Earlier this year she locked my uncle and mother out of the accounts and said it was because it was "her job" and she didn't need to prove anything to them. Mind you, the estate's supposed to be split evenly three ways

Of course, eventually they ask for some documentation of where the money is. She provides a lovely spreadsheet, and when my mom(who works in an accounting department) goes over it, she realizes she had been fudging the numbers claiming she paid hundreds more on hospital bills than they really were, etc.

Long story short, it turns out my aunt blew through all the estate accounts, took out a 30k equity loan on my grandparents' house and blew through that, maxed out her husband's credit cards, cashed out her husband's 401k, cashed out all her own bank accounts and blew through that, and pawned all my grandmothers' jewelry. In ten months she blew through well over 500k and has her and her husband 200k in debt.

This was all spent on gambling.

Your aunt needs two things: a good asskicking, and help for her serious gambling problem.

Edit: because at that point it's not just a bad decision, she's gone firmly into the 'serious mental problem requiring professional assistance' category.

# ? Sep 28, 2013 15:15

Switchback: Jul 23, 2001

Yeah, I'm not trying to argue that generational poverty isn't incredibly hard to get out of, just that as I get older, the less of a hippie my attitude is. I guess I'm becoming kind of an rear end in a top hat. I listen to a lot of dave ramsey, it's starting to get internalized.

Anyway, back on track! So my dad and his brother grew up quite poor, but both were quite smart and managed to get to Cornell. They both graduated as mechanical engineers (my dad just barely). Same footing.

My dad ended up much more successful. He took risks, transferred us across the country, worked many different jobs. My uncle stayed in the same place, doing the same job, for his whole life. Even when I was a little kid, I knew it was hard for that part of the family to come to our biannual family meetups because of money. My uncle over the years would throw in snide bible verses about how my dad was greedy and ungenerous to his brother.

It took us a long time to realize how messed up that was... my dad wasn't handed anything, and him and Skipper were total equals.

Then we find out he's been giving $800/month to his church for the past 30 years. Where they speak in tongues. What a loving whackjob.

# ? Sep 28, 2013 15:22

CelestialScribe: Jan 16, 2008

Don't listen to Dave Ramsey, guy's a jerk.

# ? Sep 28, 2013 15:24

Switchback: Jul 23, 2001

tuyop posted:

It doesn't matter how hard those SE Asian workers work, they're still making orders of magnitude less than the Europeans simply because they're SE Asian. There is no American Dream for those folks, there's just endless poverty or a constant limping struggle up to some sort of proto-middle class. The odds are that, regardless of agency, the former is what they'll get.

Naw dawg, these guys have live-in maids and nice houses and a good life for their families back home. They are making the sacrifice to provide.

But we can't really compare breaking out of poverty from the 3rd world thanks to big oil, and what it's like to grow up in an American ghetto. Like our aussie friend up there said, it's just a totally different realm. It was the biggest culture shock I've gone through. Being the only American around has really shifted my perspective.

# ? Sep 28, 2013 15:38

Mocking Bird: Aug 17, 2011

It's also interesting to see the new growing population of "educated poor" where there have been multiple generations of both college education and poverty. People really are resistant to the idea that the American dream is changing and getting further away - they went to college and got at least a two year degree and then continued to manage a blockbuster, but there is magical thinking that their child's liberal artsy bachelors will be different.

I tend to believe that the "socio" part of "socioeconomic status of parents as a predictor of future wealth" is the real game changer. Someone can be rich and still live like they are poor and vice versa. Despite my crippling poverty growing up, my parents were still socioculturally middle class with a good understanding of institutional systems and mortgages and retirement, but no money to fund them (because hey, drugs man). I could play myself off as the American dream, or I could admit my privilege gave me an enormous advantage over those who are now my clients.

Bonus story for content:

What happens when someone who is first generation "not poor" but also ninth generation "college bound" goes to college?

If you guessed enormous loans, credit card debt, and working full time hours, you are correct! I will be graduating from grad school in May with a cumulative 60k of student loans for the last seven years, 7k of credit cards I'm paying down, and a two year obligation to work for the state that I indentured myself to for a stipend so I wouldn't starve to death.

I also financed a MacBook and am going to Costa Rica in March :toot:

# ? Sep 28, 2013 18:09

INTJ Mastermind: Dec 30, 2004; It's a radial!

So let's make all college students take a mandatory major in healthcare, science, technology, math, or engineering as a pre-requisite to getting federal student loans. They can double major or minor in humanities if they choose. We need to stop selling liberal arts degrees as an "investment" seeing as how these never pay off.

INTJ Mastermind fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Sep 28, 2013

# ? Sep 28, 2013 18:27

Mocking Bird: Aug 17, 2011

INTJ Mastermind posted:

So let's make all college students take a mandatory major in healthcare, science, technology, math, or engineering as a pre-requisite to getting federal student loans. They can double major or minor in humanities if they choose. We need to stop selling liberal arts degrees as an "investment" seeing as how these never pay off.

I don't believe in turning public universities into trade schools - I was a sociology of law undergraduate and it informed my life thereafter. Now I am finishing my masters of social work as a result. A classical education is how you make global citizens with empathy for humanity as a whole and a broader sense of duty and obligation. Grad school is trade school - go career or academia or perish.

I do believe in being realistic with undergrads. "Do what you love as long as you love it enough to pursue a phd. Otherwise, here is the computer science department."

That said, my brother is a chemical engineer who is now back in school for a pharmacy phd who is very socially conscious, so your mileage may vary.

# ? Sep 28, 2013 19:03

INTJ Mastermind: Dec 30, 2004; It's a radial!

But you agree it's a bad idea for 18-24 year olds to take on 5-6 figures of debt to be "more enlightened global citizens" right? They can always take humanities electives and still learn marketable skills.

# ? Sep 28, 2013 19:29

Lightning Zwei: Aug 7, 2013

Trilineatus posted:

I don't believe in turning public universities into trade schools - I was a sociology of law undergraduate and it informed my life thereafter. Now I am finishing my masters of social work as a result. A classical education is how you make global citizens with empathy for humanity as a whole and a broader sense of duty and obligation.

I mean, do you need to rack up $60k+ in student loans to become a global citizen with empathy for humanity and a broader sense of duty and obligation? You can read books on socioeconomic inequality in your own free time and participate in the D&D circle-jerks until your brain explodes. There's no need to encumber yourself with crippling life-long debt to become a more socially conscious person.

Christ it's no wonder you hate the system so much, you literally have no other choice at this point.

I agree with INTJ, if kids are going to assume massive federal student loan debt they should be obligated to study something actually marketable and that may help improve their lot in life and their future. Becoming a mental giant and internet debate champion about social issues doesn't pay the bills - or build wealth.

Lightning Zwei fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Sep 28, 2013

# ? Sep 28, 2013 19:42

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science