|
The KdF Wagen was supposed to cost 990 marks, and party members got to purchase stamps which they put in a booklet. When the booklet was full you were supposed to be able to turn it in and get a car. By the time anybody had filled their book, nobody was getting poo poo. It wasn't necessarily conceived as a scam from the beginning but it definitely was a handy way for the party to get some cash up front in exchange for a distant, inchoate obligation to deliver cars that weren't yet fully developed. "The Russians looted the KdF fund" sounds like postwar Nazi holdout propaganda.
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2013 15:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 12:49 |
|
|
Video interview in the Guardian about a woman attacked by Golden Dawn members with wounds that look like they were caused by a pen-knife."The Guardian posted:How I was knifed by Golden Dawn supporters - video interview
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2013 18:25
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:"The Russians looted the KdF fund" sounds like postwar Nazi holdout propaganda. I'm pretty sure Volkswagen let you turn those stamp books in for a discount on a new car after the war too.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2013 18:45
|
|
|
Al Jazeera is reporting that Nikos Mihaloliakos, leader of the Golden Dawn, has been arrested on charges yet unknown.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2013 07:21
|
|
|
BBC reports the arrest is on charges of criminal conspiracy. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24314319
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2013 07:42
|
|
|
I wanna be happy, but Hitler got locked up in 1924 and we all know how well that worked in derailing the Nazis. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2013 07:56
|
|
|
Keep in mind there wasn't much of a choice then as now.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2013 08:03
|
|
|
Omi-Polari posted:Keep in mind there wasn't much of a choice then as now. Do tell?
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2013 08:06
|
|
|
Gen. Ripper posted:I wanna be happy, but Hitler got locked up in 1924 and we all know how well that worked in derailing the Nazis. First you mean 1923 and secondly, Hitler came to power in 1933 after a four year period of political chaos. His imprisonment in Landsberg prison was not nearly as instrumental in Hitler's rise to power in a way the German hyperinflation (somewhat debatable) and the Brüning deflation were.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2013 08:12
|
|
|
Gen. Ripper posted:Do tell? Edit: It's a pretty major crackdown. Thirty members arrested or being hunted by the police, including Mihaloliakos, the chief spokesman, and the party's general secretary. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 09:43 on Sep 28, 2013 |
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2013 09:40
|
|
|
Omi-Polari posted:Whether or not it'll harm the fortunes of the Golden Dawn is a secondary question, I think. Hitler had to be arrested because he attempted a coup. Likewise the Golden Dawn is a criminal syndicate like the mafia. Even if it doesn't hurt them over the long run, they should still be put in jail. What are the chances of their supporters fighting back, as it were?
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2013 10:22
|
|
|
The way I see it, this can go a few different ways: - 1. The governing coalition and police are using this as a way of making it look like they're doing something, and quietly inform Golden Dawn leaders of this. They wait a suitable amount of time, hope that attention has passed onto other issues, and then quietly announce that there was insufficient evidence to convict anyone except the killer himself, Mihaloliakos plays up the martyr of the people angle, Golden Dawn support is maintained. Bear in mind that Golden Dawn MPs can continue to sit while waiting for their cases to be heard. 2. Golden Dawn is labelled as a criminal organisation and its leaders convicted. Golden Dawn spokespeople claim that the last time we saw arrests like this was at the end of the Junta in 1974. Claim of the attempts to silence the will of people (reflected in Golden Dawn support). Calls for uprising and overthrowing the coalition. Could either be successful if there's enough in the way of police and/or military support, or alternatively could be put down if the enforcement arm decides to stay with the status quo. Alternatively, demands (with veiled threats of violence) for new elections, potentially seeing upsurge in Golden Dawn support. 3. Golden Dawn is made illegal, but its leaders are not convicted, allowing them to create a new political party, say NotGolden Dawn. Can anyone think of other possible reactions?
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2013 10:56
|
|
|
Gen. Ripper posted:I wanna be happy, but Hitler got locked up in 1924 and we all know how well that worked in derailing the Nazis. History isn't that cyclical. Keep in mind that it's not like Hitler being locked up is what allowed the Nazis to come to power like a decade later. (Greece is still in a really lovely situation even if all the fascists go away though, if you want to be pessimistic)
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2013 11:49
|
|
|
MothraAttack posted:What are the chances of their supporters fighting back, as it were? I'd say slim. Given the article above about how the organization worked, the rank and file doesn't get to make decisions and would have no idea how to organize effectively. Plus, fascists are cowards. 40-on-1 ambush in which they kill a guy and get to be violent and 'manly' when ordered? Sure. Going up against terrible odds on their own accord? Unlikely.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2013 12:37
|
|
|
Berke Negri posted:History isn't that cyclical. Keep in mind that it's not like Hitler being locked up is what allowed the Nazis to come to power like a decade later.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2013 13:53
|
|
|
quote:it seems pretty amazing that through the entirety of the war the Nazi government would sit on a large amount of cash and even more so it was kept in one place for the Red Army to specifically be able to loot a "Volkswagen fund" 6 years later. quote:"The Russians looted the KdF fund" sounds like postwar Nazi holdout propaganda. Germany had no real money problems during the war because they plundered everyone else, and the Soviets did the same to Germany, so duh? Foreign currency was at a premium, but domestic was fine. Luigi Thirty posted:I'm pretty sure Volkswagen let you turn those stamp books in for a discount on a new car after the war too. Not initially, it took until 1961 for the supreme court to make them.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2013 15:17
|
|
|
MothraAttack posted:Al Jazeera is reporting that Nikos Mihaloliakos, leader of the Golden Dawn, has been arrested on charges yet unknown. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2013 19:41
|
|
|
I'm actually grateful for recent events. For one it finally puts an end to the standard left analysis of fascism in which fascism is lead into power by the bourgeoisie in weak liberal states. Secondly because the arrest and persecution of the Golden Dawn will probably make them stronger/more sympathetic to the Greek public at large.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2013 22:52
|
|
|
Emden posted:I'm actually grateful for recent events. For one it finally puts an end to the standard left analysis of fascism in which fascism is lead into power by the bourgeoisie in weak liberal states. Secondly because the arrest and persecution of the Golden Dawn will probably make them stronger/more sympathetic to the Greek public at large. Wait what? You are grateful that the GD will now probably get stronger?
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2013 22:58
|
|
|
Temaukel posted:Wait what? You are grateful that the GD will now probably get stronger? Emden's a good example of an incredibly accurate red title. I'm worried that he may be right and this will galvanise support for Golden Dawn. Emden, in comparison, hopes for such a reaction.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2013 23:00
|
|
|
Temaukel posted:Wait what? You are grateful that the GD will now probably get stronger?
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2013 23:00
|
|
|
Yep. Emden's red-title says that he is literally a Nazi because he is literally a Nazi.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2013 23:24
|
|
|
Emden posted:I'm actually grateful for recent events. For one it finally puts an end to the standard left analysis of fascism in which fascism is lead into power by the bourgeoisie in weak liberal states. Secondly because the arrest and persecution of the Golden Dawn will probably make them stronger/more sympathetic to the Greek public at large. There's a chance this could benefit Golden Dawn in the long run, depending on how they play it, but I don't think many in the Golden Dawn are grateful that their party is being outlawed.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2013 23:42
|
|
|
Omi-Polari posted:Or the reverse happens: swing voters move back to New Democracy and Golden Dawn's ability to organize and build support is gravely weakened; offices shut down across the country; etc. Yeah, by my understanding the Golden Dawn was marketing itself as the group where young male Greek youth could get things done and have an impact and make something of themselves, which doesn't work when the movement is being heavily repressed.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2013 23:45
|
|
|
Emden posted:I'm actually grateful for recent events. For one it finally puts an end to the standard left analysis of fascism in which fascism is lead into power by the bourgeoisie in weak liberal states. Secondly because the arrest and persecution of the Golden Dawn will probably make them stronger/more sympathetic to the Greek public at large. Are you in favor of killings and protection rackets? Of persecuting minorities? (Note to everybody who isn't Emden: I know he is, I want him to admit it.)
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2013 00:03
|
|
|
Whether repression will help or hurt a movement, shockingly enough, is really contextual and no one except liberals -- and apparently fascists -- thinks repression necessarily empowers the far right.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2013 00:06
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:Are you in favor of killings and protection rackets? Of persecuting minorities? I'm more interested in what his take would be on the previously discussed heavy corruption and violent infighting inherent to fascist governments, if he has a take on that at all.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2013 00:11
|
|
|
At this point, it is unclear what will actually happen and therefore what the results will be. The GD has taken a bit in the polls from the past few weeks (from mid teens to upper single digits) but is still higher than the last election.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2013 00:16
|
|
|
Ratoslov posted:Hell, how do you tell the complete fuckers from the guys that were merely going along? Sure, the later guys are complicit with the right bastards, but you can't fire every single cop- that'd be a massive fiasco. I guess if you're serious about cleaning the cops out, you'll basically need a civilian review board of the entire force, which will have a ton of resistance from the cops. What a mess. Institute political commissioners at each station with the ability to fire any cop on the spot who seems suspiciously pro-GD, and remind the entire police force that with the unemployment rate being what it is, there'll be plenty of people in line to fill their boots. Personally I'm somewhat hoping the GD tries to fight back against the State, as it will give the state a perfectly reasonable excuse to quash them like bugs. Here's hoping that Nikos ends up "dying while trying to escape."
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2013 04:18
|
|
|
Too bad Greek's established parties are even more corrupt and nobody's removing them.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2013 10:46
|
|
|
Vernii posted:Institute political commissioners at each station with the ability to fire any cop on the spot who seems suspiciously pro-GD, and remind the entire police force that with the unemployment rate being what it is, there'll be plenty of people in line to fill their boots. Basically the Egyptian SCAF solution, with GD supporters gunned down in the streets by the hundreds.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2013 10:48
|
|
|
Riso posted:Too bad Greek's established parties are even more corrupt and nobody's removing them. The Golden Dawn isn't corrupt. They have functioned just fine and in accordance with their explicit and implicit goals and those of their constituents. Otherwise I agree with you.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2013 11:04
|
|
|
Except the part where they were pocketing donations and selling donated clothes to immigrants under their "protection." So actually totally corrupt.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2013 11:09
|
|
|
Vernii posted:Institute political commissioners at each station with the ability to fire any cop on the spot who seems suspiciously pro-GD, and remind the entire police force that with the unemployment rate being what it is, there'll be plenty of people in line to fill their boots. You're hoping that Golden Dawn can claim martyrdom? 
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2013 11:22
|
|
|
Hodgepodge posted:Except the part where they were pocketing donations and selling donated clothes to immigrants under their "protection." Or in clearer terms, I personally don't think it's valuable to tie the failure of the Golden Dawn to act within a common European framework of justice and political decency, as you have described, to the cause of the arrests taking place. They should first and foremost be prosecuted for being fascist materially and ideally, and second for being corrupt. SSJ2 Goku Wilders fucked around with this message at 11:33 on Sep 29, 2013 |
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2013 11:30
|
|
|
This was posted in the Middle East thread, but what's everyone's read on this?Democratia posted:
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2013 12:34
|
|
|
MothraAttack posted:This was posted in the Middle East thread, but what's everyone's read on this? I highly doubt there's a bunch of Strasserists running around Syria fighting with Assad. The fact this article is basically trying to say "GD are pussies, These guys are totally the real scary Fascists!" makes me think this is a really pathetic PR move on the part of some tiny group of would be fascist revolutionaries. Edit: After looking at their blog for a bit it looks like these chumps are more National-Anarchist than anything, a "movement" which thrives on writing huge amounts of pseudo-intellectual "theory" to mask the fact that they have barely any support among far-right groups (and zero popular support). kustomkarkommando fucked around with this message at 14:49 on Sep 29, 2013 |
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2013 14:27
|
|
|
Riso posted:Germany had no real money problems during the war because they plundered everyone else, and the Soviets did the same to Germany, so duh? So could you please cite a source that shows that the money was kept intact as a Volkswagen fund and that the Soviets looted said fund? DynamicSloth posted:A high profile trial helped to raise him to national figure and the subsequent slap on the wrist really couldn't have worked out better for Hitler then if his bozo squad had somehow taken over Bavaria. This is definitely true. Now I'd say what really got the Nazis into power was right wing elites scrabbling around for a counter to the left following the Wall Street Crash, without elite support and especially Hugenberg's media empire Hitler would have been much less likely to gain power. However without his notoriety from the Munich Putsch he may not have been on the elite's radar. So a lot of media attention over the arrests and a slap on the wrist sentence could be beneficial to GD but elite/state tolerance or active support is still the biggest danger. As an aside, if you're unfamiliar with the Munich Putsch it is worth reading up on, like most things the Nazis did it was something of a farce. Which is both funny to read about but a stark warning that just because Fascists often come across as inept does not mean they aren't dangerous.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2013 17:13
|
|
|
I learned about it as the Beerhall Putsch. High school history was a long time ago, but didn't Hitler literally stand up on a table in a loving tavern and announce he was taking over Bavaria? 
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2013 17:42
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 12:49 |
|
|
weavernaut posted:I learned about it as the Beerhall Putsch. High school history was a long time ago, but didn't Hitler literally stand up on a table in a loving tavern and announce he was taking over Bavaria? Yes, and then he and other party members stood around giving speeches all night while word got out to the police and local garrison, who had mobilized and blocked off roads by the time the Nazis finally got around to deciding on doing anything. It was an utter clownshow.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2013 17:44
|
|
