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Pick posted:I've never thought that DA2 was an especially good game--it does have a huge number of flaws, some of which feel like they're more fundamental and others feel like they're more superficial. However, I think I ended up with the burden of defending it because I can actually see a lot of this but I wish I could experience just a few minutes in your alternate universe where the combat in DA2 was anything approaching fun. DA2 (and to a slightly lesser extent, DA:O) are both plagued by lovely lovely lovely encounter design with wave after wave of stupid trash mobs. Combat is way too long for how tedious and boring it tends to be. It certainly looked better in DA2 but it was still the same old poo poo with a fresh coat of paint. I think the cross class combos and other things that you liked would have stood out more for me if the encounter design approached any semblance of competence.
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Sep 28, 2013 21:57
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Pick posted:- I love the theme and plot, where you always fail and are ultimately always a cock-up. This is hilarious when played as a really nice person, because it's road to Hell stuff through and through. It is anti-power-fantasy. You are Batman and you are terrible. Normally I'd agree with this but half the time the reason things go to hell is because Hawke is a loving idiot and you have no control over his/her idiotic decisions. Why can't I just report/imprison/shank Anders when it's obvious that he's asking for fantasy saltpeter and he's loving crazy? Sure you can refuse him but there's no option to link two and two together to figure out "oh poo poo he's making explosives", and he just collects the stuff anyway. Speaking of which, the times at which things go to hell is completely arbitrary. You would think there would be some problems when an apostate (who was actively able to cast spells in the street for some reason) is the Champion of Kirkwall, but nope. Things only go to hell when the writers think they should, not when they logically should. Pick posted:- I love that you are an idiot rear end in a top hat who gets credit for solving problems you and your friends personally introduced. Also the Raimi shot of Hawke seeing his or her zombie mom is fantastic. Maybe it's just me but I don't really like playing an idiot rear end in a top hat in a WRPG unless I want to? Pick posted:- Loot doesn't level (realistic and totally hilarious) I mostly agree with this, the combat still wasn't good but it was better than DA:O. Pick posted:- I had tremendous fun with the characters, even the ones I hate, because they leave an impression. I don't remember any particular character traits from the cast of FF6 or Morrowind, but by god, I will never not be mad at Anders. Killing the Terminator in Mass Effect 2, meanwhile, meant basically nothing to me. Also, most of your friends are "unfixable". Fenris will always be a douche about mages, even if you are friend/rival enough to keep him on board. But none of the characters have this impact. They could have, but the world and their motivations are so poorly written that you don't care about any of them, at least I didn't. I could have hated Anders or Fenris or Merril if they were written better, but in the end I just end up hating the Bioware writers for making me travel with these lovely characters, not them. Pick posted:- Combat combos encouraged cooperation. In DAO, tanks basically existed to keep enemies away from mages. I felt the waves kept the spirit of combat more alive than in DAO, where if you backed your mage into the right corner with a tank, basically you could win any battle. I never had to use cross-class combos because combat was so easy all the time. Maybe on harder difficulties they're more important. I would agree with the "waves diversify combat" argument more if they didn't come out completely out of nowhere. A sign that "more enemies are coming" and where they're coming from, while cheesy, would have made combat a lot more strategic. As it stands, with enemies coming out of nowhere to kill your mages in around four hits makes combat more of a clusterfuck than anything strategic. To use an analogy, it's like a tower defense game where it doesn't inform you when a new wave is coming and they come with no pauses, except the camera is limited to only a small area of the map and you can't pan back to see it all at once. Pick posted:- I liked the revision of the Darkspawn with the bloody, blackish mouths and pale skin/eyes. I also liked the new Flemeth design; I thought it was cool. The ogres are my favorite, though, I think they look awesome. The qunari revision was also a huge improvement, because the Arishok looked fantastic. I don't really care about the darkspawn, they look stupid back then and they do now. I haven't played Legacy, maybe they look better there. The qunari do look better. Flemeth on the other hand looked stupid, maybe if she ditched the horns and cleavage window she would look cool. Pick posted:- I liked the "one sibling dies at the beginning" feature because you aren't punished for the class you choose at the beginning. For example, mages often get chewed up and spit out when they start and benefit at the end. The combos kept any class from being too important, and at the beginning you have the complement to balance things out. Also, it's way cool that your family actually looks a bit like you now--no more of the human noble origin problems from DAO. It does help with making every starting class valid, but from a story standpoint having a sibling die at the start is stupid. You never got to know them, in fact all you saw of Carver before he died was bitching, and suddenly you're expected to feel sorry when they die and sympathize with your mom when she spends the next half of the game whining? Obviously she's a mother but it just becomes more annoying than anything when you know nothing about that sibling. Just bad writing. Pick posted:- You can't actually save the world. In fact, you and your pals are the worst threat Kirkwall ever faced. Maybe Obisidian could have pulled this off, but Bioware just made it completely frustrating and stupid. Sex Beef 2.0 fucked around with this message at 23:58 on Sep 28, 2013 |
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Sep 28, 2013 22:23
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I actually enjoyed the wave mechanic for the first couple dozen fights its used in because it's at least something to shake up the binary positioning of tank/dps/mage in the overwhelming majority of DA:O fights but like most everything else about DA2 its overdone and poorly implemented. poo poo like the Rock Wraith Act I end-boss and that's all I can come up with right now are really the right direction for staged fights to spice up combat, and Gaiderco has gotten so much poo poo about DA2 that it's pretty unlikely they won't address the wave abuse and come up with some fight mechanics (they can just steal more poo poo from decade old WoW encounters). For what it's worth I actually enjoyed DA2's combat system more with the gap-closers and much more flexible build options, even if they got rid of duel-wield Warriors which played way differently than Rogues.
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Sep 28, 2013 22:26
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I feel like a big part of the disconnect between Pick's point of view and mine (and presumably the views of a lot of other's) is that Pick sees a lot of the really dumb poo poo as intentional (I think?). I played the game and I saw the incorrigible gently caress-up that Hawke was and I thought, "Holy poo poo, Bioware, have you guys forgotten how to make a competent protagonist?" whereas Pick saw it and saw a great joke. It's the difference between looking at The Room as a failed serious drama and The Room as an intentional black comedy. And from that angle, sure, I guess Flemeth's redesign can work - after all, everything's hosed up on purpose, right? And I'd love to get on the "DA2 as mockery of fantasy" train, but I just can't. The constant fellating of the PC, the lack of character motivation, the way core plot bits were squirreled away in the Codex and never brought up in-game... I can't believe that all these things are the product of a company collectively deciding to take the piss. It just doesn't work for me. Nor does "making fun of (power fantasies/fantasy tropes/other RPGs/whatever)" automatically make things good. Planescape Torment, a game that undeniably was built heavily around that sort of thing, and usually did it quite well, burned itself on that from time to time. It turns out that a terrible, boring dungeon slog is still a terrible, boring dungeon slog even if it's all done ironically and filled with cute robots that remind you that, hey, it's supposed to be terrible and boring! No excuses for actually saying good things about DA2's wave "send one person ahead to get them to spawn then retreat to the bottleneck" combat, though. Thank God for `runscript killallhostiles.
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Sep 28, 2013 22:47
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I very much doubt Bioware would make a fairly large budget, highly publicized entry in one of their main series as a joke. At the most, they were trying to circumvent their usual formula seriously, but even in that they failed. EDIT: I can see someone able to enjoy it by perceiving it as a joke, but most people aren't inclined to play the follow up to a really good RPG from a once beloved company, waste their time and money, and go "hyuk hyuk hyuk Bioware you're such a card" EDIT2: It's pretty clear Bioware didn't intend for any of the bad stuff if you look at the DLC dialogue, which is mostly Whedonesque "ha ha ha yeah that was stuff was stupid you see we can admit our mistakes you guys still like us right?!' Sex Beef 2.0 fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Sep 29, 2013 |
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Sep 28, 2013 23:49
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That Felicia Day vehicle DLC is like the worst thing Bioware wrote. I can see how Gaider and crew might find Anders as "charming but radicalized mage freedom fighter with dark side" and Fenris as "charming but radicalized Tevinter slave freedom fighter with only dark side" and Merrill as "charming but retarded Dalish Elf with radical death drive and blood magic obsession" and Isabella as etc, etc, as well-developed and self-reflective characters on paper but Tallis' character synopsis just sounds like something that would line the cutting room floor of an actual self respecting writer staff, even with the undeniable nerd-magnet Felicia Day drawing in idiots to give Bioware more money. steakmancer fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Sep 29, 2013 |
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Sep 29, 2013 00:19
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The Crotch posted:I feel like a big part of the disconnect between Pick's point of view and mine (and presumably the views of a lot of other's) is that Pick sees a lot of the really dumb poo poo as intentional (I think?). I played the game and I saw the incorrigible gently caress-up that Hawke was and I thought, "Holy poo poo, Bioware, have you guys forgotten how to make a competent protagonist?" whereas Pick saw it and saw a great joke. I do basically view it in this light, and I'm not sure how much of it is intentional or not. For the most part, I don't think it was, but I don't really care about what they intended me to experience, only what I experienced. Through my lens, it is a scathing and hilarious commentary on games like DAO that you and your goofy fuckup friends are trying to survive. And I really do like most of the cast. Dweeb, freeloader, liar, hobo, hobo, fundie. In Mass Effect 3 you're trying to recruit the best of the best to save the universe; in DA2, you end up having to babysit a gaggle of losers for nine years. This circle or prostitutes are also your only way to get laid. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha ha ha ha ha!
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Sep 29, 2013 01:23
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TheWorldIsSquare posted:EDIT2: It's pretty clear Bioware didn't intend for any of the bad stuff if you look at the DLC dialogue, which is mostly Whedonesque "ha ha ha yeah that was stuff was stupid you see we can admit our mistakes you guys still like us right?!' And this is why the DLC sucked! I don't want to play an apology for the game I enjoyed enough to buy the DLC! It's useless for the people who would have liked it, since they're not going to buy the DLC for a game they disliked. And it's actively insulting to the people who did like it, the ones buying DLC. (Corypheus fight is pretty fun though.)
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Sep 29, 2013 01:28
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...what was wrong with Tallis? I just finished the DLC a few days ago and she seemed like a decent enough character. I was more aggravated over how her mentor was barely given any screen time, despite all of the buildup he was given.quote:EDIT2: It's pretty clear Bioware didn't intend for any of the bad stuff if you look at the DLC dialogue, which is mostly Whedonesque "ha ha ha yeah that was stuff was stupid you see we can admit our mistakes you guys still like us right?!' Okay, on this I am seriously confused. What on earth are you talking about here? I finished Legacy a little bit before Mark of the Assassin and I never saw any of this. Doublehex fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Sep 29, 2013 |
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Sep 29, 2013 01:51
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steakmancer posted:That Felicia Day vehicle DLC is like the worst thing Bioware wrote. Mark of the Assassin is such trash, wow. I mostly quite like DA2 and close to everything about that DLC is terrible. Tallis is an infuriating character acted, written and directed poorly, and I don't even hold any ill-will towards Felicia Day in general.
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Sep 29, 2013 01:55
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Android Blues posted:Mark of the Assassin is such trash, wow. I mostly quite like DA2 and close to everything about that DLC is terrible. Tallis is an infuriating character acted, written and directed poorly, and I don't even hold any ill-will towards Felicia Day in general. I remember liking Mark of the Assassin quite a bit more than DA2 proper, but I only played it once, and that was when it came out. I guess I thought any environment that wasn't a reused asset was in the game's favor. But like I said, it's been a while.
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Sep 29, 2013 02:08
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Doublehex posted:Okay, on this I am seriously confused. What on earth are you talking about here? I finished Legacy a little bit before Mark of the Assassin and I never saw any of this. Just think about the loving character. Strong pseudo-empowered lithe, ex-slave FEMALE Elf Assassin who is accepted into a strict, foreign, code of honor, rises up the chain of command with Mary-Sue levels of effortlessness but is stripped from her title and honor when she goes against direct orders to murder the taskmasters of elven child sex slaves, is demoted to an insulting and demeaning position, requires the help of the infallible, uber-mensch Hawke (despite being the strong independent character she is) to kill her mentor who [doublefuckingspoilers]TURNED EVIL AND IS BETRAYING THE CODE THAT SHE SO RIGIDLY FOLLOWED OH THE MELODRAMA[/doublefuckingspoilers] is one of the most derived, pseudo-fanbase-catering, and unfortunately most "Bioware" character I've ever heard of. Then, if you compound the fact that this character is voiced and based off the appearance of Felicia Day, you should come to the conclusion that this is one of the most insulting fabrications a group of writers have created in the name of appeasing a consumer base and making money. Edit: Bioware can make good female characters (Bastila, Jaheira, Aveline for the most part), but it's undeniable that their female character writing quality has gone substantially down in the past decade. steakmancer fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Sep 29, 2013 |
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Sep 29, 2013 02:11
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To be fair, they probably had to base her character around the horrible webseries Felicia Day wrote and acted in which I think was done first.
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Sep 29, 2013 02:13
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My only exposure to her was Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog, where she played a pretty two-dimensional character pretty decently.
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Sep 29, 2013 02:14
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I still think "I guess this tranquil solution wasn't the holocaust you imagined" is the worst piece of writing I've ever seen from Bioware. Maybe I was just hallucinating and that line isn't real since I can't believe they could put something so loving stupid in their game.
Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 03:12 on Sep 29, 2013 |
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Sep 29, 2013 02:17
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TheWorldIsSquare posted:Maybe it's just me but I don't really like playing an idiot rear end in a top hat in a WRPG unless I want to? quote:But none of the characters have this impact. They could have, but the world and their motivations are so poorly written that you don't care about any of them, at least I didn't. I could have hated Anders or Fenris or Merril if they were written better, but in the end I just end up hating the Bioware writers for making me travel with these lovely characters, not them. quote:I never had to use cross-class combos because combat was so easy all the time. Maybe on harder difficulties they're more important. I would agree with the "waves diversify combat" argument more if they didn't come out completely out of nowhere. A sign that "more enemies are coming" and where they're coming from, while cheesy, would have made combat a lot more strategic. [...] I don't really care about the darkspawn, they look stupid back then and they do now. I haven't played Legacy, maybe they look better there. The qunari do look better. Flemeth on the other hand looked stupid, maybe if she ditched the horns and cleavage window she would look cool. The boss battles get pretty fun on insane difficulty because your spells hurt everyone and it's such a fight to stay alive, your body starts to quiver  .quote:It does help with making every starting class valid, but from a story standpoint having a sibling die at the start is stupid. You never got to know them, in fact all you saw of Carver before he died was bitching, and suddenly you're expected to feel sorry when they die and sympathize with your mom when she spends the next half of the game whining? Obviously she's a mother but it just becomes more annoying than anything when you know nothing about that sibling. Just bad writing.
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Sep 29, 2013 02:18
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steakmancer posted:Then, if you compound the fact that this character is voiced and based off the appearance of Felicia Day
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Sep 29, 2013 02:55
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Internet Kraken posted:I still think "I guess this tranquil solution wasn't the holocaust you imagined" is the worst piece of writing I've ever seen from Bioware. Maybe I was just hallucinating and that line isn't real since I can't believe they could something so loving stupid in their game. Haha, yeah this is a thing that is literally said. I just can't imagine how someone could write that and not go, "Yeah, this is bad".
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Sep 29, 2013 02:59
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Lotish posted:I never saw her as "virginal girl next door" so much as "may have an autism spectrum disorder." I agree that she doesn't come off that way in reality. Just saying that the writers didn't intend for the player to view Merril as a complete idiot, who should be imprisoned for the safety of everyone around her. The writers' "nom her head" quote is another example of the writers' thoughts on Merril.
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Sep 29, 2013 03:13
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Roobanguy posted:Haha, yeah this is a thing that is literally said. I just can't imagine how someone could write that and not go, "Yeah, this is bad". I think the lead-up is worse ("Tranquil solution"), this quote just felt :iamafag: at that point.
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Sep 29, 2013 03:15
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The entire thing is awful but the fact that they top it off with a character dropping a holocaust "joke" that is completely out of place is shockingly stupid on so many levels. Usually with bad writing I can at least tell what the intention was, but there I'm honestly baffled. I have no idea how anybody could read that line and not immediately go "what the gently caress?". VVV I only said joke because I have no loving clue what to call something like that. Other than stupid. Stupid stupid stupid. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Sep 29, 2013 |
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Sep 29, 2013 03:26
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Internet Kraken posted:The entire thing is awful but the fact that they top it off with a character dropping a holocaust "joke" that is completely out of place is shockingly stupid on so many levels. Usually with bad writing I can at least tell what the intention was, but there I'm honestly baffled. I have no idea how anybody could read that line and not immediately go "what the gently caress?". I don't think it was meant as a joke, I think it was meant as a Holocaust snap, which is a joke in an of itself because Holocaust snap. So many layers. Pick fucked around with this message at 03:40 on Sep 29, 2013 |
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Sep 29, 2013 03:33
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One thing that I enjoyed in Dragon Age: Origins was that, at any time in the camp, you could tell your companions (except Dog) to just leave and not come back. It was completely silly, and I think most people would never even consider doing it because of how large a part the companions play in the game, and by kicking them out of the party you will miss out on their storylines, quests, gifts etc. But the choice was there, and you could do it and I love that. There is never any real benefit to kicking out or killing your party members. What if a templar decided to join my party after I break my promise and enact the Rite of Annulment? What if, later in my journey I meet up with a former party member, going on with his/her life? Wouldn't that be neat? Regarding the Anders bit from DA2, it's difficult to care about Anders on a second playthrough because that colors your impression of him from then on. The Dragon Age games seem to want you to replay them to experience the possibilities of different choices, especially in regards to your interactions with companions, but none of it really matters when it comes time for the end of the predetermined main storyline. This, combined with the fact that I know exactly what will happen ahead of time, leads to me gaming the system for my companions for optimal rewards and then just picking whatever ending I want as long as it's different from the one I got last time. I don't really end up caring what happens at all in a second playthrough. I suppose the problem is that the games are too long and event-driven. I would probably prefer a character driven game that doesn't have to be long, but actually cares about and addresses the choices I make, leading to significantly different outcomes, and not just having mages or templars in the ending sequence. Finally, I think that approval and friendship meters should just go away. There shouldn't be any meter or number I can check to see how much someone likes me. Their opinions of me should be based around my actions, and if I really pissed a party member off then a pretty gold locket shouldn't instantly make us best bros again. They should also be able to call me out on being a flippant hypocrite that's gaming the system if I act contrary to my previous choices. Like, "Hey, what the hell? I thought you liked mages, why are you siding with templars now?" "Uh..."
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Sep 29, 2013 04:28
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Pick posted:For me, it was fine because I've been the hypercapable super-duper savior so many times, something new was refreshing. I kinda love Pick's responses to things people hated about DA2. I assume coming from such a specific place that the game is enjoyable as you demonstrate. Its just really fascinating to learn about all the experiences or lack of experiences to lead to why and how you enjoy it.
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Sep 29, 2013 04:40
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Gaffle posted:Regarding the Anders bit from DA2, it's difficult to care about Anders on a second playthrough because that colors your impression of him from then on. The Dragon Age games seem to want you to replay them to experience the possibilities of different choices, especially in regards to your interactions with companions, but none of it really matters when it comes time for the end of the predetermined main storyline. This, combined with the fact that I know exactly what will happen ahead of time, leads to me gaming the system for my companions for optimal rewards and then just picking whatever ending I want as long as it's different from the one I got last time. I don't really end up caring what happens at all in a second playthrough. I suppose the problem is that the games are too long and event-driven. I would probably prefer a character driven game that doesn't have to be long, but actually cares about and addresses the choices I make, leading to significantly different outcomes, and not just having mages or templars in the ending sequence. During my first playthrough I assumed things would come together for him and everything would be peachy. I friendship-pathed him and supported him with good intentions, hoping I could help him out and maybe even some of the mages in the circle. The second time I knew better. quote:Finally, I think that approval and friendship meters should just go away. There shouldn't be any meter or number I can check to see how much someone likes me. Their opinions of me should be based around my actions, and if I really pissed a party member off then a pretty gold locket shouldn't instantly make us best bros again. They should also be able to call me out on being a flippant hypocrite that's gaming the system if I act contrary to my previous choices. Like, This is why it's so great that gifts in DA2 can add either rivalry or friendship points depending on how you present them! It's a total reversal from DAO where some gifts were flatly enjoyed and others weren't, and there was no advantage to giving bad gifts. In DA2, you provide the context for whether something will be appreciated. Aveline is originally pissed you give her some dumb junk Orlesian shield with her "namesake  " written on it. And when you give Fenris his act 3 gift, he's like "Uh, these are trophies for champions of the Imperium you loving rear end in a top hat < >." The first time it happens you're like "Uhhh... poo poo."To some degree they were clearly trying to make Hawke imperfect. I also love when you're waiting for Aveline to come meet Donnic at the bar and it gets more and more awkward and Hawke is suffering. Especially if you're a male Hawke because you look like the world's most incompetent gay. If you don't laugh during that entire sequence I don't know what to tell you. kingcom posted:I kinda love Pick's responses to things people hated about DA2. I assume coming from such a specific place that the game is enjoyable as you demonstrate. Its just really fascinating to learn about all the experiences or lack of experiences to lead to why and how you enjoy it. I'm glad someone finds this worthwhile  . I know my experience with DA2 was abnormal, but gosh, it is just such my happy-time game.
Pick fucked around with this message at 04:58 on Sep 29, 2013 |
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Sep 29, 2013 04:51
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Schubalts posted:I agree that she doesn't come off that way in reality. Just saying that the writers didn't intend for the player to view Merril as a complete idiot, who should be imprisoned for the safety of everyone around her. The writers' "nom her head" quote is another example of the writers' thoughts on Merril. But was that the writer for Merrill's scenarios? Or a writer? Because holy poo poo I could not disagree more with many of the impressions of Merrill in here more. Hell I'd say she's pretty much one of the best characters in the game because she is like a, intentional or otherwise, deconstruction of Aerie/Liara/Tali/all the other nerdbait characters Bioware has ever written. Merrill is a cautionary tale. By giving her romantic validation and supporting her no matter what you are being an enabler to a person with a very serious problem! And guess what, in so doing, you not only allow but accelerate her onto a path that costs her everything she ever cared about. If you go the friendship route, Merrill learns nothing from it in the end. She shoves blame off onto her victims and uses Hawke's love to avoid growing up. On the rivalry path, she finally sees the source of her problems for what it is and puts the first foot forward onto the road of accepting and learning from her mistakes. At a hell of a cost, but she finally learned something. I adore the fact that Merrill is one big fuckoff trap for the "my waifu~" types because she penalizes the typical behavior relentlessly. Like Pick, I couldn't care less if this is intentional or unintentional. The result is a far better character than Bioware typically produces.
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Sep 29, 2013 05:07
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As I recall, it was Sheryl Chee who made the "nom" comment. She's Isabella's writer. Merrill's writer just kind of played it off. Incidentally, Merrill's writer, Mary Kirby, is also Varric's. edit: She'll still be handling Varric in DA:I, and has the job of writing the new Orlesian mage, Vivienne. We'll see how that works out, I guess.
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Sep 29, 2013 05:10
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Pick posted:To some degree they were clearly trying to make Hawke imperfect. I also love when you're waiting for Aveline to come meet Donnic at the bar and it gets more and more awkward and Hawke is suffering. Especially if you're a male Hawke because you look like the world's most incompetent gay. If you don't laugh during that entire sequence I don't know what to tell you. Thanks Pick. Next time I play DA2 and get to the Donnic bar scene a phantasmal voice will say in my head "World's most incompetent gaaaaaay~" and it's going to be just magical.
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Sep 29, 2013 05:11
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Captain Oblivious posted:But was that the writer for Merrill's scenarios? Or a writer? Because holy poo poo I could not disagree more with many of the impressions of Merrill in here more. Hell I'd say she's pretty much one of the best characters in the game because she is like a, intentional or otherwise, deconstruction of Aerie/Liara/Tali/all the other nerdbait characters Bioware has ever written. Merrill is a cautionary tale. By giving her romantic validation and supporting her no matter what you are being an enabler to a person with a very serious problem! And guess what, in so doing, you not only allow but accelerate her onto a path that costs her everything she ever cared about. If you go the friendship route, Merrill learns nothing from it in the end. She shoves blame off onto her victims and uses Hawke's love to avoid growing up. On the rivalry path, she finally sees the source of her problems for what it is and puts the first foot forward onto the road of accepting and learning from her mistakes. At a hell of a cost, but she finally learned something. I agree with this assessment of Merrill. I actually like how the worst thing you can do for most of your companions is support them, or at least there's a good split. It runs completely contrary to most of what Bioware's done. Among other things, there are strikingly few where one path is clearly the "wrong" or "evil" one, at least on first playthrough. I honestly supported Anders the first time around with the assumption it would go well. Same with Merrill. This is the worst thing you can do for either. Both of them need a tough-love kick in the pants, something the developers hinted would happen but I didn't believe. For Merrill it takes (after noted "hell of a cost"), for Anders, it's too late but at least you didn't go help him gather bat poo poo. I'd say Aveline and Varric are the only two where you have to be an intentional poo poo to hit full Rivalry. Carver and Bethany you're pretty much locked, and for Isabela, Fenris, and Sebastian I think there's an argument to be made for either path. "Doesn't Friendship-pathing Fenris encourage him to be a hateful son of a bitch towards mages?" you ask. Well yes. Is that wrong, I ask. Let the court witness... Anders. Pick fucked around with this message at 05:19 on Sep 29, 2013 |
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Sep 29, 2013 05:14
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DrNutt posted:Sherlock isn't amazing but it's fun throughout and the sum of its parts actually works as a whole piece of entertainment. DAII is as close to objectively bad as possible, and the only redeeming value are the tiniest nuggets of what might have been a couple good ideas. The combat and lazy c/p'd environments make 60% of the game a boring slog, and the remaining 40% is mostly badly written fan-fiction leagues below the Moffatest of writing. Yeah if I had to compare DAII to a show it would be Dexter. Or later seasons of True Blood.
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Sep 29, 2013 05:17
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Pick posted:Carver and Bethany you're pretty much locked, and for Isabela, Fenris, and Sebastian I think there's an argument to be made for either path. "Doesn't Friendship-pathing Fenris encourage him to be a hateful son of a bitch towards mages?" you ask. Well yes. Is that wrong, I ask. Let the court witness... Anders. The problem with the Circle, I say, is that it doesn't go far enough 
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Sep 29, 2013 05:21
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Captain Oblivious posted:The problem with the Circle, I say, is that it doesn't go far enough It's a not unreasonable takeaway from a few years in Kirkwall .e: also why Orsino should have been a regular mage-boss. A powerful one, with lots of HP, but standard spells not "hello you are justified in hating me and everyone like me" plastered on his forehead.
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Sep 29, 2013 05:27
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Pick posted:It's a not unreasonable takeaway from a few years in Kirkwall Well the bolded would be true even if EA hadn't insisted on the nonsense boss battle. He kinda did enthusiastically support Mengele the Ripper's research.
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Sep 29, 2013 05:34
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Captain Oblivious posted:But was that the writer for Merrill's scenarios? Or a writer? Because holy poo poo I could not disagree more with many of the impressions of Merrill in here more. Hell I'd say she's pretty much one of the best characters in the game because she is like a, intentional or otherwise, deconstruction of Aerie/Liara/Tali/all the other nerdbait characters Bioware has ever written. Merrill is a cautionary tale. By giving her romantic validation and supporting her no matter what you are being an enabler to a person with a very serious problem! And guess what, in so doing, you not only allow but accelerate her onto a path that costs her everything she ever cared about. If you go the friendship route, Merrill learns nothing from it in the end. She shoves blame off onto her victims and uses Hawke's love to avoid growing up. On the rivalry path, she finally sees the source of her problems for what it is and puts the first foot forward onto the road of accepting and learning from her mistakes. At a hell of a cost, but she finally learned something. See, I enjoyed that myself about Merrill. She was one of the characters that really needed a Rival Hawke to challenge her for her own good (though I honestly believe all the romance characters could use a good Rival to make them get over themselves). It's just two big problems that really detracted from that. 1) Merrill's "cute and innocent" personality was played up far too much. She should have slowly grown up on her own a little over the years instead of being so unrealistically incompetent at everything. She actually does have some knowledge (she's the one who flat out tells Anders that there's no such thing as a "good" spirit) and skill. Unfortunately, those rare moments are buried under airheaded rambling that you'd hardly tolerate from a ten-year-old without breaking into a lecture. Sure, it's less annoying than the outright hostility spewed by Fenris and Anders, but that's a pretty low bar. The writers should have shown her as at least somewhat competent, if naive. That way the decision about the mirror might have some ambiguity instead of essentially being Hawke taking away matches from the slow child. Granted, she does seem more competent on the rivalry path (as you said), but that's too little too late. 2) As with so many things, the options are too polarized. I'm all for learning about the mirror and can plainly see that Merrill's clan is causing a lot of its own problems by reacting in the worst ways, I just don't like the idea of using demon summoning or the life-destroying obsessiveness Merrill's showing. Unfortunately, Hakwe doesn't have the option of saying that. All Hawke does is support one extreme or the other despite knowing next to nothing about the situation. You just flat out deem the mirror pure evil or give Merrill the all clear to dangle herself in front of demonic powers in a childish bid to prove herself. No discussion, no questioning, no complexity at all. Just support all the way or reject all the way with everything coming to a head in the worst manner possible. Just like the whole fiasco with the mage/templar arguments. I can see exactly what the writers were trying to do here, but it just went so wrong. That seems to be a common thread when it comes to discussing this game, doesn't it? Captain Oblivious posted:Well the bolded would be true even if EA hadn't insisted on the nonsense boss battle. I still say that little "plot twist" was completely idiotic. It doesn't paint Orsino as an extremist hiding in plain sight, it just comes off as a weak bit of retroactive villification so you'd feel better about killing him in his mandated boss fight. I say so because it makes no sense for Orsino to risk working with a lunatic like Quentin given the already poor state of mages in Kirkwall. The fact that he somehow managed to do it behind Meredith's back despite her being driven so crazy that she had everyone on lockdown only makes it seem less likely. I'd accept it if Orsino had proper characterization to fit and show that he's no better than Meredith, but he doesn't. He's a complete blank introduced at the endgame and forced into a role that he doesn't fit. If anything, Anders should have been the anti-Meredith. Geostomp fucked around with this message at 05:45 on Sep 29, 2013 |
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Sep 29, 2013 05:37
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Geostomp posted:See, I enjoyed that myself about Merrill. She was one of the characters that really needed a Rival Hawke to challenge her for her own good (though I honestly believe all the romance characters could use a good Rival to make them get over themselves). It's just two big problems that really detracted from that. 1) For me, the cute and innocent isn't too overbearing. And what is there, I consider essential to the trap. v v2) Except you can say those things to Merrill. I literally just replayed this game, going Rivalry with Merrill as per usual, and told her "look do you really think consorting with demons is worth it if it costs you your loving family?" and her reply is that she will be vindicated by history even if not by her people, and that my heritage and culture wasn't a smoking wreckage so I couldn't possibly understand.
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Sep 29, 2013 05:43
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Captain Oblivious posted:Well the bolded would be true even if EA hadn't insisted on the nonsense boss battle. I think that was just added in to explain why Orsino could suddenly go full monster. As a plot point it makes little sense, and is worse than unnecessary--it actually contributes to the problem of there being literally no good mages outside Hawke's own family. e: quote:I'd accept it if Orsino had proper characterization to fit and show that he's no better than Meredith, but he doesn't. He's a complete blank introduced at the endgame and forced into a role that he doesn't fit. If anything, Anders should have been the anti-Meredith. Pick fucked around with this message at 05:52 on Sep 29, 2013 |
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Sep 29, 2013 05:47
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I hope they bring back dual wielding as a warrior. I hated that your only two options for melee fighting in DA2, were recklessly swinging around weapons bigger than yourself as a warrior, or being a dance fighting ninja as a rogue, with no inbetween. I love the dual wielding fighting in DA:O, it's all I ever pick now whenever I find myself replaying the game. Pick posted:Carver and Bethany you're pretty much locked. I actually managed to get Carver to full on friendship mode, in my second playthrough, made for some really nice character development. Penakoto fucked around with this message at 05:56 on Sep 29, 2013 |
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Sep 29, 2013 05:51
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Pick posted:I think that was just added in to explain why Orsino could suddenly go full monster. Whether it's a plot point that makes little sense or not depends on how you interpret Orsino as a character. Me, I see Orsino as an extension of the dichotomy of the two Admirals from Mass Effect. The Geth Sympathizer is an unlikeable rear end in a top hat but his position is, ultimately, the most morally sound and rational one. The war mongering idiot dragging everyone along with him into the probable extinction of their race is a genuinely charismatic and likeable guy. Similarly, as we know from Kirkwall's history and the Enigma of Kirkwall, Meredith is more than justified in being extra vigilant about the Kirkwall Circle. She's a dick, but she's not a lunatic until the Corrupted Lyrium comes into her possession. Orsino is the inverse. He's a charismatic and likeable man but he's a loving snake. He is preparing for a revolution, and he plans to be at the head. Mengele the Ripper is likely merely one method by which Orsino was stockpiling arms. His whole longterm gameplan was to portray the mages as sympathetically as possible while still forcing a confrontation. It's the only way he could possibly survive his own ambitions, is by having some measure of popular support. Pick posted:e: Absolutely agree with this being a way cooler and more thematically fitting fight though!
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Sep 29, 2013 05:52
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That would have been cool, if not for my concerns about balance. In my mind, you've got to have at least one non-abomination, non-blood mage somewhere who is both important and not the player character. We get sympathetic Templars multiple times!
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Sep 29, 2013 05:54
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Pick posted:That would have been cool, if not for my concerns about balance. In my mind, you've got to have at least one non-abomination, non-blood mage somewhere who is both important and not the player character. We get sympathetic Templars multiple times! Sure. I'd say that's a problem independent of Orsino though. I'm not sure changing him is the solution so much as a wholly separate character would be. We really needed a Cool Redheaded Templar Guy analogue. Why can't I remember his name.
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Sep 29, 2013 05:55
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