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Cogitators are digital, just like regular computers, but the Mechanicum keeps a close eye on them to make sure none develop an AI. If you're talking about the skulls in the Baneblade, that's artistic license.
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Sep 26, 2013 21:26
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A tank that big has a natural obligation to be decorated with more skulls than smaller vehicles. There's an official Mechanicum chart somewhere that details how many skulls a given machine needs to be adorned with, otherwise their machine spirits feel underdressed and get all nervous and shy in front of the other machine spirits when it's time to get together for a war.
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Sep 26, 2013 22:56
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One Legged Cat posted:A tank that big has a natural obligation to be decorated with more skulls than smaller vehicles. There's an official Mechanicum chart somewhere that details how many skulls a given machine needs to be adorned with, otherwise their machine spirits feel underdressed and get all nervous and shy in front of the other machine spirits when it's time to get together for a war. This is absolutely true. Note, though, that it is considered passé to make the skulls scream all the time.
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Sep 26, 2013 23:24
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The thing I love about WH40k is that I had to spend a few minutes deciding whether or not that was serious.
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Sep 27, 2013 00:03
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VanSandman posted:This is absolutely true. Note, though, that it is considered passé to make the skulls scream all the time. The skulls only ever sing hymns to the Emperor's glory. Why would they do anything else?
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Sep 27, 2013 00:16
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Baron Bifford posted:It was mentioned earlier in this thread that the Emperor didn't warn his Primarchs, except Magnus, about the existence of Chaos and the Ruinous Powers. How can that be if the Primarchs are all psykers? Psykers constantly feel daemons scratching at the door in their mind. How did the sanctioned psykers of the Great Crusade deal with them if they were not privvy to their nature? I think they're aware of things in the warp but they're not aware of what they are. They were probably seen more like native flora or fauna that you could tame or subdue instead of being the primordial forces of the universe. The warp was also calmer so it wasn't as big a threat to psykers. thespaceinvader posted:Yep, i think so. They use VERY few AIs, though most of the bigger machines do have them (machine spirits), baneblades included. But computers don't really exist IIRC, they're most human-brain powered instead. I'm not sure if they were true AIs but I'm pretty sure they use computers and such. They just stick them onto skulls or other human components to ensure they aren't breaking the no AI rule.
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Sep 27, 2013 00:44
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Kegslayer posted:I think they're aware of things in the warp but they're not aware of what they are. They were probably seen more like native flora or fauna that you could tame or subdue instead of being the primordial forces of the universe. The warp was also calmer so it wasn't as big a threat to psykers. There's some confusion because of the tenuous connection between the Warhammer 40k universe and the Dune universe. In the Dune universe, all AI and most computers were banned, which necessitated the emergence of people called Mentats who had trained themselves to process information much more rapidly then normal people, acting as human computers. Warhammer 40k almost certainly has actual computers, data servers, digital storage etc. its just the only things that survive thousands of years are physical copies, like STC plans etched into adamantium.
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Sep 27, 2013 01:24
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I think the confusion comes from the fact that non-active computing functions are ok, whereas processing itself must be done through an organic component. For example, you can store your data on a hard drive analogue, but any computations or the act of storage/retrieval itself must be done by something with an organic component.
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Sep 27, 2013 02:26
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It's literally just AIs they don't like. Regular dumb computers are fine.
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Sep 27, 2013 02:34
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Arquinsiel posted:It's literally just AIs they don't like. Regular dumb computers are fine. Machine Spirits good, true AIs like the Iron Men or the Kaban project bad.
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Sep 27, 2013 02:38
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Khizan posted:The thing I love about WH40k is that I had to spend a few minutes deciding whether or not that was serious. Which it is! Ever wonder why the Imperial Guard and generally most Imperial civil authorities are always so eager to get people killed in huge numbers? It's because the Imperium actually has enough raw materials to build a fleet that could bring the entire galaxy to its knees, but they simply lack the immense number of skulls it would require. New vehicles and ships can't be created until enough people die to adorn them with the correct amount of skulls required by Mechanicum decree. And a bunch of people die from headshots or are exploded entirely, which defeats the entire purpose of sending them to battle for purposes of skull farming in the first place! It's not a perfect system, but it's the best one humanity's got at the moment.
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Sep 27, 2013 03:10
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Is that why they have issues with Khorne? Fighting over the skull supply? "Skulls for the Skull Throne!" "Skulls to make the monthly Leman Russ quota!"
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Sep 27, 2013 03:13
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Khizan posted:Is that why they have issues with Khorne? Fighting over the skull supply? "Skulls for the Skull Throne!" "Skulls to make the monthly Leman Russ quota!" This is true. Every work in 40k is actually, at its core, a story about economic sabotage, protectionism, and trade embargoes in the skull economy. It's just dressed up with lasers and explosions to make it more interesting.
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Sep 27, 2013 18:59
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There's also the occasional Exterminatus on a planet that's been discovered to be exporting skulls touched up with plaster.
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Sep 27, 2013 19:03
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Khizan posted:The thing I love about WH40k is that I had to spend a few minutes deciding whether or not that was serious. The brilliant thing about 40k is that it IS serious, somewhere.
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Sep 27, 2013 19:18
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Skulls for sale, appetizing young skulls for sale Skulls that are fresh and still unspoiled Skulls that are only slightly soiled, skulls for sale Who will buy? Who would like to sample my supply? Who's prepared to pay the price, for a trip to paradise? Skulls for sale...
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Sep 27, 2013 20:27
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Khizan posted:The thing I love about WH40k is that I had to spend a few minutes deciding whether or not that was serious.
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Sep 27, 2013 20:46
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Genetically engineered giant skull, grown in a vat from stem-cells.
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Sep 28, 2013 00:31
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Khizan posted:Is that why they have issues with Khorne? Fighting over the skull supply? "Skulls for the Skull Throne!" "Skulls to make the monthly Leman Russ quota!" Clearly they need to engage in some sort of corporate takeover so that they can monopolise the supply
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Sep 28, 2013 00:40
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Huh. And here I thought I was only just kidding when I described the setting as "Skull fetishism of the far future" to friends.
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Sep 28, 2013 07:20
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I've been slowly getting into the 40k and HH novels. I've read Eisenhorn, the HH books up to Legion and just finished off The Emperor's Gift and, despite a couple of dull books in the HH series I've not read anything I could honestly call terrible. Then I started on the Death of Antagonis. Holy poo poo, does this get any better or am I better off saving my sanity and just quitting it now? It's not like I'm expecting any great literature or anything but simple characterisation and something that vaguely resembles a plot would be nice.
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Sep 28, 2013 11:13
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Shameless posted:I've been slowly getting into the 40k and HH novels. I've read Eisenhorn, the HH books up to Legion and just finished off The Emperor's Gift and, despite a couple of dull books in the HH series I've not read anything I could honestly call terrible. Then I started on the Death of Antagonis. Holy poo poo, does this get any better or am I better off saving my sanity and just quitting it now? At the risk of beating a dead horse, read the books by Aaron Dembski-Bowden and Dan Abnett. They are the only authors to really take the W40K universe and make it their own. Personally, I've been reading the Inquisition War trilogy by Ian Watson and it is wholly unique in how it addresses the idea of Chaos, Elder, and the concept of the Webway and other esoteric ideas. The style is extremely unique, and since Watson wrote in the early 90s before most of the fluff was established he had free reign to do whatever he wanted, and it shows.
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Sep 28, 2013 11:25
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pentyne posted:At the risk of beating a dead horse, read the books by Aaron Dembski-Bowden and Dan Abnett. They are the only authors to really take the W40K universe and make it their own. Yeah, I've read through the thread and seen that but, like I said, Death of Antagonis is the first book of the dozen or so I've read that I've found irredeemably awful (and I'm only about a quarter of the way through it). I've enjoyed pretty much everything else in a "set brain to idle" mode and even the duller of the books have at least had reasonable plotlines and characters that were distinguishable from one another. I guess I've been lucky so far or I have a relatively high tolerance level to shite
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Sep 28, 2013 11:48
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Shameless posted:I guess I've been lucky so far or I have a relatively high tolerance level to shite I can spend hours reading sjws on tumblr but that doesn't mean it's good for me. Stick to ADB and Abnett, Chris Wraight is decent and some McNeil books are okay, John French isn't terrible and there's the Sandy Mitchel pseudo-space-flashman series. If nobody mentions an author or book positively here, don't even bother.
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Sep 28, 2013 19:25
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I do think if you enjoy Mitchell but haven't read flashman, stop reading black library stuff right loving now - go pick that up. Immediately.
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Sep 28, 2013 23:17
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lenoon posted:I do think if you enjoy Mitchell but haven't read flashman, stop reading black library stuff right loving now - go pick that up. Immediately. I dunno, I tried Flashman after reading Cain and I just couldn't get into them. With Cain at least there's a legitimate argument he only THINKS he's a bad guy (and that because he has what most of us would consider a sane realistic response to the lunacy that is the 40K world), Flashman there's not much doubt he's a worthless prick. When your protagonist is a rapist... yeah. I can see why people could enjoy them but that unlikable a protagonist just kills the humor in that series for me. So, be warned if you have similar issues.
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Sep 29, 2013 00:08
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Flashman is way too unlikeable, and the whole power fantasy genre has never clicked in with me. The protagonist getting by mostly through luck doesn't help it one bit, either.
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Sep 29, 2013 00:13
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lenoon posted:I do think if you enjoy Mitchell but haven't read flashman, stop reading black library stuff right loving now - go pick that up. Immediately.  Everything I learned about 19th century British history, I learned from Flashman. One of the most enjoyable series I've read in the last several years. He is an absolute bastard, of course. So if you don't like amoral protagonists, it may not interest you.
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Sep 29, 2013 01:21
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MadDogMike posted:I dunno, I tried Flashman after reading Cain and I just couldn't get into them. With Cain at least there's a legitimate argument he only THINKS he's a bad guy (and that because he has what most of us would consider a sane realistic response to the lunacy that is the 40K world), Flashman there's not much doubt he's a worthless prick. When your protagonist is a rapist... yeah. I can see why people could enjoy them but that unlikable a protagonist just kills the humor in that series for me. So, be warned if you have similar issues. Cain is a hero who thinks he's a coward. Flashman is a coward and an utter poo poo who knows he's poo poo but nobody notices because he's rich, good-looking, and white. Which is why Flashman is such a funny series. I also don't understand why people would call it a "power fantasy" series. You're supposed to laugh at what an unbelievable rear end in a top hat Flashman is and occasionally chuckle at his alternative takes on famous historical events and figures, not see yourself in his shoes. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 02:03 on Sep 29, 2013 |
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Sep 29, 2013 01:58
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Because most of the Flashman fans I know think he's an amazing character and wish they could get away with the things he does. People are poo poo.
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Sep 29, 2013 02:05
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Yeah, I can't say the central joke of the Flashman novels appeals to me. Cain is fine though!
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Sep 29, 2013 02:07
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You could easily just pretend that Flashman is a historical account of some Imperium-separated planet that Cain crashlanded on.
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Sep 29, 2013 03:35
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Nephilm posted:Because most of the Flashman fans I know think he's an amazing character and wish they could get away with the things he does. People are poo poo. Given that this is a thread about pulp sci-fi based on a tabletop game, this is a bit pot-kettle-black, isn't it? e: I mean let's be real here. If we judged 40k based off of most of the fans we know, then welp. The Rat fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Sep 29, 2013 |
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Sep 29, 2013 03:57
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Not many WH40k fans I know identify themselves with a rapist piece of poo poo human being, or praise the setting as a historical account - they're just manchildren that like disproportioned muscled mans shooting other mans and get offended when you go against their headcanon despite never reading anything outside the codexes.
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Sep 29, 2013 04:16
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Hey now, there's plenty of quasi-fascist (or literal fascist) fanboys out there who unironically approve of the Imperium's beliefs as well. Let's be fair to the hobby here. Personally, I've never met anyone who read Flashman as anything other than black comedy. You should probably avoid those people who don't. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 04:23 on Sep 29, 2013 |
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Sep 29, 2013 04:21
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You must know some really lovely people, because no one I know who has read Flashman has taken it as anything other than comic historical fiction about a douchebag.
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Sep 29, 2013 04:22
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Yeah, I do, and I'm also the most fascist wh40k fan I know to my knowledge, so I suppose I should be glad for that at least.
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Sep 29, 2013 07:15
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lenoon posted:I do think if you enjoy Mitchell but haven't read flashman, stop reading black library stuff right loving now - go pick that up. Immediately. I've read six or seven Flashman books and love them, sometimes you just can't beat a nice vile bastard of a lead character. I definitely intend to give the Cain books a try.
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Sep 29, 2013 07:55
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In a setting where the good guys literally condemn planets to a fire-wreathed doom for thinking the wrong thing, there's an issue with flashman being amoral? In the BL fiction, ultraviolence is not only normalised, it's an end in and of itself even for the purest protagonist. Every single one of the characters we read about is a murderer on a scale virtually unimaginable by anyone who isn't a predator drone operator or something. A secondary, though much more important point, is actually how much 40k fiction needs to self evaluate. The flashman novels have a very self aware tone - At base they're not books about a power fantasy, but a critique of a violent and hypocritical world and the people that exist in it. By having an antihero character who commits terrible terrible deeds (though to be honest only really in the first book is he that bad), we see the actions and morals of his peers in their true form as as bad (if not worse) than what flashman does. Is it worse to lie and cheat and murder, or to send boys out to die in the frozen wastes of afganistan? Self awareness is something sorely lacking in BL fiction. 'Bolter porn' is right - it is war porn, pure and simple. When every Bolter shot is lovingly described, every impact wound inflicted and described with relish, when every single characters response to loving any situation is always to kill, which we as readers are expected to love and encouraged to do so - is that better or worse than the amorality of macdonald fraser's famous hero? Yes yes it's fantasy, or far future sci fi, but the point remains. They add nothing to how we think about ourselves or others - violence is an aim, a be all and end all, the act of taking life sanctified, cherished. Flashman just can't compare. (All of this is because the whole setting was designed by three british nerds on a power fantasy trip during the 70s and 80s, and you can tell - no self awareness, no reflexivity, no creativity, just war, endless glorified death and the laughter of thirsting spergs)
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Sep 29, 2013 08:44
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The thing about Cain is that he's not a vile bastard of a character. In the grim dark grimdarkness of the 40,000th millenium, as the galaxy is torn apart by the galactic battle to control the Skull Trade... Cain is basically a pretty decent guy.
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Sep 29, 2013 08:53
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