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DStecks posted:What the gently caress. What the gently caress. What the gently caress has to be wrong with you to make you write this? Also, boo on this guy for targeting Luna Lovegood. She's my favorite character, too. Keromaru5 fucked around with this message at 05:35 on Sep 29, 2013 |
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Sep 29, 2013 05:30
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Antivehicular posted:I can't even get angry about all the Remember some pages back we were talking about the Turkey City Lexicon? And remember one of the examples we quoted? quote:White Room Syndrome What happens, they wondered, when an author's imagination fails and they end up staring at a computer screen instead of a white page? I think it no longer remains to be seen.
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Sep 29, 2013 08:27
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Holy poo poo  Apple Tree, you're a beautiful person.
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Sep 29, 2013 10:47
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...of SCIENCE! posted:
I LOVE people who purport to be hyper rational members of the intellectual elite then report their loving IQ score. IQ measures one thing, and that's how good you are at taking IQ tests. It also has a long and storied history of misapplication, racism, sexism and pretty much anything that makes the current dominant group feel like they're better than everyone else. So pretty much ideal for Tropers.
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Sep 29, 2013 12:23
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Fatkraken posted:I LOVE people who purport to be hyper rational members of the intellectual elite then report their loving IQ score. IQ measures one thing, and that's how good you are at taking IQ tests. It also has a long and storied history of misapplication, racism, sexism and pretty much anything that makes the current dominant group feel like they're better than everyone else. So pretty much ideal for Tropers. Well hey, they have to prove their brilliance somehow, and it's not like they have a bunch of achievements they can point to. And thank you, Punch Rockgroin. I wouldn't say I believe it beyond a doubt myself; more that the idea is aesthetically pleasing within the structure of this thread. Of course, after the Lojban Singularity crushes all in its path, that's the kind of talk that'd probably get people shipped off to the sex mines, so I guess we'd better enjoy it while we can. 
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Sep 29, 2013 13:45
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Jesus Christ. Why, of all things, is rape legislation the first thing his mind goes to when he thinks of the ~rational~ future? I sure hope we don't invent AI this century because with fuckers like him advocating for them we'll be lining up to kill the lot. 
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Sep 29, 2013 17:02
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Strategic Tea posted:Jesus Christ. Why, of all things, is rape legislation the first thing his mind goes to when he thinks of the ~rational~ future? Philosophical answer: rationalism has been coded male for centuries. If the idea of male domination of women excites you, it's a comfort zone. This why the loudest Skeptics are so often big swinging pricks. Common-sense answer: experience suggests to them that women wouldn't gently caress them voluntarily. I mean, check out LessWrong's self-explanation: quote:LessWrong itself is an update patch for philosophy to fix compatibility issues with science and render it more useful. That it would exist now rather than much earlier is no coincidence: right now, it's the gold at the bottom of the pan, because it's taking the idea filtering process to a whole new level. Does that sound like people who understand philosophy? Or are getting much tail?
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Sep 29, 2013 20:11
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I interpreted that as female-on-male rape being the common form of the now-legal act of non-consensual sex, because his creep rear end thought that was clever or something. I read that story a while ago and it's amazing what a terrible writer can do to prevent a good concept from turning into a good story.
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Sep 29, 2013 20:40
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It's either  moral relativism 'look at the sort of thing that might be okay in the future' or  'rape is default for men and women and if we didn't criminalize it there'd be no problem'.To move off of rape for a bit, here's some of the latest from TV Tropes' own version of Creative Convention. This thread is 'Describe yourself'. quote:Name: (Chris) Age: (16) Ethnically: (American) Religion: (agnostic atheist) Quirks: (My imagination) Sadly, the thread's locked, so we don't get to see any other tropers' self portraits in Trope, but let's look at the tropes he says he is.
This is what they mean in context:
A bonus, from the Brilliant But Lazy page. quote:An obvious subversion here is the notable difference between someone who actually is Brilliant But Lazy and someone who thinks they're Brilliant But Lazy but is actually just Lazy. This also applies to those who are secretly afraid they're not brilliant and hence refuse to exert themselves for fear they'll be exposed.
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Sep 29, 2013 21:46
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quote:1. (Deadpan Snarker) 2. (Brilliant, but lazy) 3. (Jerkass Facade) 4. (Nice guy) 5. (Meta guy) 6. (The stoic) 7. (Keet) 8. (Cloudcuckoolander) 9. (Ditzy genius) 10. (forgetful) I'm pretty sure this list applies to 99% of tropers, in that they all think they're these things. Maybe not 10, unless it's wacky and random to forget things.
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Sep 29, 2013 23:15
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Leofish posted:I'm pretty sure this list applies to 99% of tropers, in that they all think they're these things. Maybe not 10, unless it's wacky and random to forget things. That page made a pretty fun This Troper. My favorite is the guy around the 2:25 mark that says he could ace any class "except PE." You can ace PE if you show up and drop a little sweat. Run a little bit, swing away when you're playing baseball, and participate in the run and vert test. I was a complete fatty and bad at sports and I aced PE.
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Sep 30, 2013 01:10
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DStecks posted:What the gently caress. What the gently caress. What the gently caress has to be wrong with you to make you write this? You know, people don't write that sort of poo poo unless they secretly want it to be true. So gently caress him. gently caress him, and everyone like him. I legitimately think that the world would be a better place if he was hit by a loving car, that is, assuming he ventures outside of his loving mancave. Jesus Christ almighty. I used to actually like that fanfic of his, very glad I stopped reading it a year or so ago, my lord.
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Sep 30, 2013 06:27
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The Iron Rose posted:You know, people don't write that sort of poo poo unless they secretly want it to be true. I'm on your side, but I take offense to this sentiment as a writer. This only really applies to the trope school of writing, where wish fulfillment is a thing to aspire to.
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Sep 30, 2013 06:39
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LaughMyselfTo posted:I'm on your side, but I take offense to this sentiment as a writer. This only really applies to the trope school of writing, where wish fulfillment is a thing to aspire to. I get exactly where you're coming from, but that passage is extremely obviously portraying the legalization of
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Sep 30, 2013 06:43
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Jesus, that is the most idiotic, offensive, and ridiculous way to explain moral relativism imaginable. Its like he doesn't get that his writing is still meant to appeal to people, with a traditional people sense of morality, and just overshoots the mark completely. Moral relativism does seem to be the domain of fat goony neckbeards on the internet who try to claim they are Nietzschean ubermenschen to justify their pedophilia and Tropers have claimed that opposing child pornography is just 'Western morals', and that loving thirteen year olds is a-ok in Japan because moral relativism so I can see why they like Yudkovsky's 'literature'.
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Sep 30, 2013 07:07
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To go back to the Turkey City Lexicon again, I feel like this sort of phenomenon in troper writing is what they call the Squid in the Mouth:quote:The failure of an author to realize that his/her own weird assumptions and personal in-jokes are simply not shared by the world-at-large. Instead of applauding the wit or insight of the author’s remarks, the world-at-large will stare in vague shock and alarm at such a writer, as if he or she had a live squid in the mouth. Tropers lack the empathy and social awareness to realize (or care) that their biases and fetishes aren't universal, so they write wish-fulfillment fiction where their worldviews are universal, heedless to how repulsive that looks to anyone outside of their echo chamber. Normally I agree that it's wrong to assume that writers secretly want/approve of the things they write about, but in the case of Yudkowsky's writing about rape, it's both so positive and so completely blase that I can't buy it coming from a place other than wish-fulfillment. "Oh, yeah, we legalized rape and it's great, everyone thinks it's a lot of fun" as basically a throwaway detail? Honestly? I know there's that obligatory line about self-defense robots or something that suggests that not everyone in Yudkowsky's enlightened utopia is down with legalized rape, but that seems to be him more thinking "oh, well, prudes" and not really processing that most of the world is not going to enjoy the prospect of "risky dating" (God, what a gross phrase to type).
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Sep 30, 2013 07:48
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Antivehicular posted:Tropers lack the empathy and social awareness to realize (or care) that their biases and fetishes aren't universal, so they write wish-fulfillment fiction where their worldviews are universal, heedless to how repulsive that looks to anyone outside of their echo chamber. Normally I agree that it's wrong to assume that writers secretly want/approve of the things they write about, but in the case of Yudkowsky's writing about rape, it's both so positive and so completely blase that I can't buy it coming from a place other than wish-fulfillment. "Oh, yeah, we legalized rape and it's great, everyone thinks it's a lot of fun" as basically a throwaway detail? Honestly? I know there's that obligatory line about self-defense robots or something that suggests that not everyone in Yudkowsky's enlightened utopia is down with legalized rape, but that seems to be him more thinking "oh, well, prudes" and not really processing that most of the world is not going to enjoy the prospect of "risky dating" (God, what a gross phrase to type).
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Sep 30, 2013 08:18
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MinistryofLard posted:Tropers have claimed that opposing child pornography is just 'Western morals', and that loving thirteen year olds is a-ok in Japan because moral relativism so I can see why they like Yudkovsky's 'literature'. Oddly enough its just bits of the West, Germany's age of consent is 14, alongside the Netherlands and Spain. But you never see this brought up alongside the problem of "does this mean ages of consent are an arbitrary line and that we should be more understanding of different cultures", no instead it is always used to justify "But its really okay because she's 400 years old and not really his actual sister" type of poo poo. Its sad that this basically leads to people utterly disregarding a morally relativist view when it is so important to allowing us to continue functioning as a planet and not get involved in loving over other people and their points of view.
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Sep 30, 2013 09:00
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LaughMyselfTo posted:I'm on your side, but I take offense to this sentiment as a writer. This only really applies to the trope school of writing, where wish fulfillment is a thing to aspire to. Well, sorry, obviously I don't mean that sentiment universally. In context though? On TV tropes? I'm unconvinced.
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Sep 30, 2013 09:05
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MinistryofLard posted:Jesus, that is the most idiotic, offensive, and ridiculous way to explain moral relativism imaginable. Its like he doesn't get that his writing is still meant to appeal to people, with a traditional people sense of morality, and just overshoots the mark completely. But what he's describing in that scenario is obviously consensual sex, which is the weird thing about this to me. The "risky sex" is flirting and the flirtee hopes his inamorata will take things further. This is legal. Unless you're talking about a society where fornication is illegal, it has always been legal. What does he think rape is? ... He thinks the women really want it, doesn't he? HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 09:10 on Sep 30, 2013 |
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Sep 30, 2013 09:07
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HEGEL CURES THESES posted:... Do you really need the answer to that question?
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Sep 30, 2013 09:15
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DStecks posted:I get exactly where you're coming from, but that passage is extremely obviously portraying the legalization of I thought that's what he was going to do. The story is about humanity finding aliens with incomprehensible and repugnant morals, so for him to suddenly reveal that the humans also have incomprehensible and repugnant morals is a pretty neat development. But no. He actually thinks it's a sign of how advanced humanity is. Fuckin idiot.
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Sep 30, 2013 09:17
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I thought that's what he was going to do. The story is about humanity finding aliens with incomprehensible and repugnant morals, so for him to suddenly reveal that the humans also have incomprehensible and repugnant morals is a pretty neat development. I think thats what it comes down to. Does he really think that women really want to be raped? Possibly, maybe even probably, but we can't be sure. But even if he didn't, should he have gone, "Hang on, lets be realistic here. I lack the ability to write this in a way that isn't offensive and does not communicate the impression that I am condoning this. I shouldn't write this and pick a different topic to use as an example." Most definitely. But Yudkovsky has built himself a weird cult of people who praise his work and doesn't actually try to publish it, so nobody ever tells him he's an awful writer because if you don't charge money for your poo poo nobody is going to go on the internet and blog about how he's a loving moron or whatever, so he never realises that he's an awful writer and unable to handle writing sensitive topics with sufficient tact. The weirdo-overwhelmingly-male-never-been-raped-internet-troper-robot-hugbox is part of his cult, so he doesn't get people calling him an awful shitheel very often except for places like here, and I doubt he reads SA. (Though if I remember correctly he flipped his poo poo when he submitting something to the SPC website and they rejected it for being poo poo, so what do I know). And if you're getting offended or uncomfortable due to his work, well, you're just *beep-boop* irrational aren't you? After all, its not like anybody's getting raped by writing about it, right? So that makes all your feelings immaterial. Sorry if this is getting Helldumpy, but I do a CS degree where I'm surrounded by dedicated Yudkovsky cultists or people who are close so you end up learning a lot about stupid robot people who think they're *beep boop* ultra rational you are irrational *beep boop*. Whats worse is that for a bunch of computer scientists, they don't get that Yudkovsky has never contributed anything to the field of Computer Science anyway. He's a philosopher who specialises in rationality, and uses computers as his example of rational entities. If he actually wrote papers for philosophical journals he'd probably get published, but I'm guessing he's the kind of guy who thinks that philosophy is a waste of time and he's to rational for it. Yudkovsky pisses me off in every way.
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Sep 30, 2013 09:45
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Strom Cuzewon posted:
I read this a while ago and honestly did not get that impression, I got the impression that he was just trying to make humanity be weird as well. I think his ambition outweighed his talent, but I certainly didn't get the sense that he was trying to say rape would be a good change.
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Sep 30, 2013 09:48
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MinistryofLard posted:He's a philosopher who specialises in rationality, and uses computers as his example of rational entities. If he actually wrote papers for philosophical journals he'd probably get published, but I'm guessing he's the kind of guy who thinks that philosophy is a waste of time and he's to rational for it.
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Sep 30, 2013 09:56
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There's no such thing as notoriety:UsefulNotes/Feminism posted:Some well-known men who identify as feminists or have expressed feminist ideals include Alan Alda, Joss Whedon, Kurt Cobain, John Lennon, Hayao Miyazaki, Henrik Ibsen, John Stuart Mill, Linkara and most of his male colleagues, Frederick Douglass, and L. Frank Baum. Even Dr. Eggman has been described as a feminist in the Sonic Heroes instruction manual. I love how nonchalantly they list Linkara and Dr. loving Eggman between guys like Ibsen and Douglass. And of course Joss Whedon, the great progressive mind that gave us Dollhouse. I'm acutally kind of surprised that their entry on Feminism isn't quite as offensive as it is merely stupid. They basically "debunk" points like All feminists are hairy-legged, makeup-shunnin', boot-wearin' brutes, Feminists are frigid, hate sex, and want to stop anyone from enjoying porn or fanservice, Feminists are angry, bitter harpies and of course the widely held belief that Feminism was invented in the 1970s. For some reason that last one really bugs me. Is "Feminism started in the 70ies" really a belief that actual people have? Like, haven't they watched Mary Poppins as children?
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Sep 30, 2013 09:57
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UsefulNotes/Feminism posted:Even Dr. Eggman has been described as a feminist in the Sonic Heroes instruction manual. Hmm... Tell me Google, is this just tropers making poo poo up? Sonic Heroes Manual, page 14 posted:As well as having an unfeasibly high IQ of 300, Eggman is a romanticist, a feminist, and a self-professed gentleman. Sadly, his charms are often difficult to spot through the abominable laughter that accompanies his maniacal declarations of world domination. No, it just seems to be them taking something that was meant to be a joke seriously.
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Sep 30, 2013 10:35
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Here are my thoughts on TV Tropes in general: “The worst readers are those who behave like plundering troops: they take away a few things they can use, dirty and confound the remainder, and revile the whole.” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
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Sep 30, 2013 11:13
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Josef bugman posted:Oddly enough its just bits of the West, Germany's age of consent is 14, alongside the Netherlands and Spain. But you never see this brought up alongside the problem of "does this mean ages of consent are an arbitrary line and that we should be more understanding of different cultures", no instead it is always used to justify "But its really okay because she's 400 years old and not really his actual sister" type of poo poo. I think somebody mentioned in a previous thread that the national age of consent in Japan is pretty low, but most of the individual prefectures set higher boundaries, or something like that. Is there really any reason for Japan to be "like Mecca for tropers" (as I believe Major Tom once described it) beyond its production of manga and anime?
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Sep 30, 2013 11:45
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Metal Loaf posted:I think somebody mentioned in a previous thread that the national age of consent in Japan is pretty low, but most of the individual prefectures set higher boundaries, or something like that. Probably not; they'd probably suffocate under the extremely conformist culture in most of it (  What do you mean I can't carry a katana around?!?) and if I recall correctly, the Japanese hate their own otaku (let alone a bunch of weeaboo freaks from across the ocean).
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Sep 30, 2013 11:55
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Metal Loaf posted:I think somebody mentioned in a previous thread that the national age of consent in Japan is pretty low, but most of the individual prefectures set higher boundaries, or something like that. That's how it works in Japan, yeah. The only reason the national age of consent hasn't been raised is because it wouldn't have any actual effect. But you can bet that if some prefecture tried to lower theirs, the national age of consent would rise.
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Sep 30, 2013 12:50
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I thought that's what he was going to do. The story is about humanity finding aliens with incomprehensible and repugnant morals, so for him to suddenly reveal that the humans also have incomprehensible and repugnant morals is a pretty neat development. Is that from the text or from stuff he said outside it? Honestly I assumed it was just a dumb twist and him going "hmmm, what's a terrible crime that everyone knows is wrong? I know, RAPE! I will make my apparently awesome and rational future humanity think that's OK to demonstrate moral relativism, SO CLEVER!". All the poo poo the characters say to justify it is just a product of the initial stupid idea and not the opinions of the author (it's not like he'd have to make up those opinions wholecloth, plenty of shitheads think something very similar ANYWAY and you can find their ramblings online easily enough, so the idea that only a "drat good author" could pull it off doesn't convince me). I think it was a stupid move and not something he should have included in the story, but unless there's stuff he's said outside the story to indicate otherwise, I think it's just a symptom of him being clueless and dense when it comes to what is appropriate for a story, not that he actually supports rape. Fatkraken fucked around with this message at 13:44 on Sep 30, 2013 |
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Sep 30, 2013 13:42
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Fatkraken posted:Is that from the text or from stuff he said outside it? Honestly I assumed it was just a dumb twist and him going "hmmm, what's a terrible crime that everyone knows is wrong? I know, RAPE! I will make my apparently awesome and rational future humanity think that's OK to demonstrate moral relativism, SO CLEVER!". All the poo poo the characters say to justify it is just a product of the initial stupid idea and not the opinions of the author (it's not like he'd have to make up those opinions wholecloth, plenty of shitheads think something very similar ANYWAY and you can find their ramblings online easily enough, so the idea that only a "drat good author" could pull it off doesn't convince me). I just got the impression that it was being used genuinely (I almost said "played straight" before I realised what thread I was in) and that we were meant to agree with the future-humans. It's been a while since I read it, maybe I misjudged.
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Sep 30, 2013 15:21
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I don't know anything about that Yudkowsky person beyond what was quoted in this thread but judging by that excerpt from his Harry Potter fanfic that was posted a few pages ago he might in fact have some unhealthy views about rape.
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Sep 30, 2013 15:29
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What with the rape and genocide (in one ending) I figured we weren't meant to empathize with the future humans at all, but now I have doubts about that.
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Sep 30, 2013 16:08
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The Iron Rose posted:I legitimately think that the world would be a better place if he was hit by a loving car, that is, assuming he ventures outside of his loving mancave. Even if he doesn't, he can still get hit by a car. There is such a thing as "drunk driving into a house," "buzzed driving into a house," and "being such a crappy driver that you accidentally plow into the side of the house."
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Sep 30, 2013 16:44
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HEGEL CURES THESES posted:But what he's describing in that scenario is obviously consensual sex, which is the weird thing about this to me. The "risky sex" is flirting and the flirtee hopes his inamorata will take things further. This is legal. Unless you're talking about a society where fornication is illegal, it has always been legal. What does he think rape is? In that extract at least, the fantasy is for a woman to grab you, drag you down an alley and have her way with you, thus rationally solving the problem of social skills and making an effort. It'd be convenient for the 'brilliant' guys if life worked that way, wouldn't it? And I'm sure it would, if it wasn't for all those pesky anti-rape laws. quote:Oddly enough its just bits of the West, Germany's age of consent is 14, alongside the Netherlands and Spain. But you never see this brought up alongside the problem of "does this mean ages of consent are an arbitrary line and that we should be more understanding of different cultures", no instead it is always used to justify "But its really okay because she's 400 years old and not really his actual sister" type of poo poo. Humbert Humbert might agree: quote:At other times I would tell myself that it was all a question of attitude, that there was really nothing wrong in being moved to distraction by girl-children. Let me remind my reader that in England, with the passage of the Children and Young Persons Act in 1933, the term 'girl-child' is defined as 'a girl who is over eight but under fourteen years' (after that from fourteen to seventeen, the statutory definition is 'young person'). In Massachusetts, US, on the other hand, a 'wayward child' is, technically, one 'between seven and seventeen years of age' (who, moreover, habitually associations with vicious or immoral persons). Hugh Broughton, a writer of controversy in the reign of James I, has proved that Rahab was a harlot at ten years of age. This is all very interesting, and I dare say you see me already frothing at the mouth in a fit; but no, I am not; I am just winking happy thoughts into a little tiddle cup. Here are some more pictures. Here is Virgil who could the nymphet sing in single tone, but probably preferred a lad's peritoneum. Here are two of King Akhnaten's and Queen Nerfertitit's pre-nuble Nile daughters (that royal couple had a litter of six), wearing nothing but many necklaces of bright beads, relaxed on cushions, intact after three thousand years, with their soft brown puppybodies, cropped hair and long ebony eyes. Here are some brides of ten compelled to seat themselves on the fascinum, the virile ivory in the temples of classical scholarship. Marriage and cohabitation before the age of puberty are still not uncommon in certain East Indian provinces. Lepcha old men of eighty copulate with girls of eight, and nobody minds. After all, Dante fell madly in love with his Beatrice when she was nine, a sparkling girleen, painted and lovely, and bejewelled, in a crimson frock, and this as in 1274, in Florence, at a private feast in the merry month of May. And when Petrarch fell madly in love with his Laureen, she was a fair-haired nymphet of twelve running in the wind, in the pollen and dust, a flower of flight, in the beautiful plain as described from the hills of Vaucluse. This stuff isn't new. Nabokov skewered the pedophile apologist pattern of 'It's different in other countries and anyway she's not like an innocent child and how many examples can I compile' in 1959. Though I think by now, it's more like a swimming pool's worth of tiddles. quote:Antivehicular wrote: Did you ever read Dan Hemmen's review of The Wise Man's Fear? Something he says in the comments seems relevant here: quote:That's the difference between a mythic or an inspirational story and wish fulfilment. A mythic hero embodies virtues to which you aspire, but which you know that you do not truly possess. A wish-fulfillment character has all of the same qualities you already have, but they work the way you *want* them to work instead of the way they really work. So your creepy inability to speak to women is transformed into an endearing shyness, your six months of kendo really does make you brilliant at fighting, and your nerdboy hobbies are the secret to saving the universe. TVTropes, by the way, refers to the hero of that book as a 'Chivalrous Pervert'. And since I count 124 tropes for that entry, I assume they're happy with that. If nothing else, one of their reviewers described it as so far, so good.' Apple Tree fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Sep 30, 2013 |
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Sep 30, 2013 17:35
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So there is no doubt in your mind as to where the line can and should be, like at all? Because it pretty much blew my mind when I realised that justice and right action as I understood it could be an as thin as a sheet of rice paper. And made me pretty sad too. And ultimately there is no source for a single moral law for the entire globe, not even "do not kill". I am not trying to equivocate here but its just terrifying to look at all of this and not get alternately saddened and angry about it. One of my friends linked me to an article about students sleeping with teachers (this was after the whole story broke of the combo kidnap/sleeping with a pupil thing a teacher did in the UK) and happily reminiscing about the fact, to me that makes the teachers monstrous and yet there was no punishment for them and the people in question seemed to have enjoyed it, so where is the right action, where is the good in that? Moral relativism remains a thing and has to, we still have to use it and be aware of it, otherwise we are edging into imperialism and dogma which ends up with edicts being handed down without trying to change things on the ground for the better. Its pretty horrible though, but so is every moral system eventually. Its just sad to see what we are breeding on the internet really, and the fact is they might never realise how broken they are, and if they did... what then? They hand themselves in for their crimes? They kill themselves or they try and do the best possible to make up for it? Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Sep 30, 2013 |
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Sep 30, 2013 20:06
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Josef bugman posted:Moral relativism remains a thing and has to, we still have to use it and be aware of it, otherwise we are edging into imperialism and dogma which ends up with edicts being handed down without trying to change things on the ground for the better. Its pretty horrible though, but so is every moral system eventually. gently caress that noise. Rape is wrong. Period. Forever. Always.
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Sep 30, 2013 20:20
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DStecks posted:gently caress that noise. Rape is wrong. Period. Forever. Always. Well doy I know that, you know that. But its troubling that there are people who don't who still think of themselves as moral people and can't be proved wrong objectively. And its not been wrong, as defined by a society, forever. It was a property crime for several hundred years in western Europe, and that is horrific on a level I can barely conceive. But it still was, and its still affecting us and who the gently caress even knows any more. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Sep 30, 2013 |
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Sep 30, 2013 20:27
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