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Dolash posted:They still seem to have "the weapon", maybe they'll try to pass it on to someone else they think can do more good with it - although John's already gotten the power from it, right? Could it grant others that power?
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Oct 1, 2013 22:37
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Does anyone actually get the point behind the whole "the more passive the hero, the better" theme? It seems vaguely self-contradictory since the story wouldn't have properly started had John not, you know, been proactive and eaten the apple. I liked this update a lot but I'm also very worried that I'm going to be extremely disappointed with the ending because I am actually 13 years old and want Homestuck to go just like my animes.
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Oct 1, 2013 22:51
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Meanwhile Aradia just chillin on the roof 
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Oct 1, 2013 23:18
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Oh man, Vriska and Meenah being BFFs So Vriska is apparently having real development and talking to someone supportive about her feelings. This rocks and I think we can all relate a little to what she's feeling after seeing Aranea go full retard. It's easy to ignore your faults and see yourself as infallible until you run across someone who's just like you and it's an eye-opening "holy gently caress is that what I'm really like?" moment. Hopefully Vriska will remember that her poo poo stinks as much as everyone else's instead of reverting to VRISKATIME. I know HS is full of a lot of self-defeating reacharounds and often seems downright malevolent towards the idea of competent, proactive heroes, and I can certainly understand the frustration with Meenah and Vriska hanging it up, but I think it's ultimately a good thing. Both of them have had their time in the spotlight, and Aranea's interference is a good demonstration of why hatching MASTER PLANS and trying to save the day can be The Worst. Despite his complete lack of social skills or understanding of people's boundaries, Dirk seems to have the best head on his shoulders (sometimes  ) for hatching plans and getting poo poo done. His self-loathing also seems to indicate that he's at least somewhat aware of his flaws and capable of growth. I don't want him to grow right now though, I want him to finish loving Aranea up. 
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Oct 1, 2013 23:18
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Homestuck is gonna end with every character totally going against what they have learned throughout their adventures and will end up wiped off from the webcomic... except Spades Slick. Thus marks the beginning of The Midnight Crew adventure.
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Oct 1, 2013 23:26
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Frankly, I am not at all convinced that this is any different than the last time. Vriska isn't averse to self-reflection, and this doesn't feel different than her log before meeting with Terezi. The big difference is that this time she's more willing to give up, but that response feels - to me, at least - to not really be all that different than her choice to confront Jack. Except, I guess, maybe acknowledging a little that the plan might be boned? I guess? And after that backfired horribly, she completely relapsed instead of learning from it. Maybe this is different, but I just don't really see it. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
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Oct 1, 2013 23:27
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ALEX TRILLTON posted:Does anyone actually get the point behind the whole "the more passive the hero, the better" theme? It seems vaguely self-contradictory since the story wouldn't have properly started had John not, you know, been proactive and eaten the apple. They don't have to be in a coma, but generally when a character's been proactive and implementing plans it's lead to disaster or manipulation, while the more reactive characters who let things happen to them have gotten ahead. The machinations of characters like Dirk, Vriska and Rose all ended up in a mess, while John's basically just bumbled his way through the plot and has been on easy street. Hell, look at Caliborn and Calliope, a Lord and a Muse, whose aggression and passivity are major character traits and cosmic identities. It probably has something to do with the coming of age theme, where characters will only be able to really take charge and make things happen at the peak of their character development. And I guess people are hoping this Vriska introspection will be the "for real" one where she finally develops just to avoid another hollow "Vriska never learns" arc. We're so near the end of the story now, there's no reason to keep hammering that particular point home anymore, so hopefully this scene's supposed to be the start of something more positive.
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Oct 2, 2013 00:06
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King of Solomon posted:Frankly, I am not at all convinced that this is any different than the last time. Vriska isn't averse to self-reflection, and this doesn't feel different than her log before meeting with Terezi. The big difference is that this time she's more willing to give up, but that response feels - to me, at least - to not really be all that different than her choice to confront Jack. It's incredibly different. Nothing could be more anti-Vriska than the decision not to go full speed ahead, reservations or no reservations.
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Oct 2, 2013 00:06
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The true importance of Aranea grabbing the wheel of the narrative bus has been revealed: making Vriska genuinely realize that she's been kind of a schmuck so she can start to work past it.  Granted it'll still be posthumous advancement, but you take what you can get. King of Solomon posted:Frankly, I am not at all convinced that this is any different than the last time. Vriska isn't averse to self-reflection, and this doesn't feel different than her log before meeting with Terezi. The big difference is that this time she's more willing to give up, but that response feels - to me, at least - to not really be all that different than her choice to confront Jack. Except, I guess, maybe acknowledging a little that the plan might be boned? I guess? I think the difference here is something she specifically pointed out: the whole business with Aranea is essentially Vriska's own poo poo being thrown back in her face, and she seems to recognize it for what it is now. Also like CuddlyZombie said, anime hair change = actual character progression occurring.
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Oct 2, 2013 00:07
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ALEX TRILLTON posted:Does anyone actually get the point behind the whole "the more passive the hero, the better" theme? It seems vaguely self-contradictory since the story wouldn't have properly started had John not, you know, been proactive and eaten the apple. What's going to happen is that the characters will become SO PASSIVE that they'll start ignoring Lord English entirely, and Lord English will get bored because nobody is paying attention to him anymore and he'll just go away. Turns out Homestuck was about ignoring bullies all along.
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Oct 2, 2013 00:13
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ALEX TRILLTON posted:Does anyone actually get the point behind the whole "the more passive the hero, the better" theme? No and it is intensely frustrating to me. Feranon posted:Aranea's interference is a good demonstration of why hatching MASTER PLANS and trying to save the day can be The Worst. I don't really care personally. I'd rather have a character who fucks up while trying to save the day then one who saves it by accident or just by getting lucky. I'm legit going to be disappointed if John being a moron and sticking his hand in the weapon ends up being the big thing that saves the plot. Why? Because he wouldn't be the hero! He would have earned anything. He doesn't deserve to win. Right now the character who deserves to win the most is loving Caliborn! Because he's actually tried and put real effort into things. When Hussie tells him is quest is going to be tough and tedious he just goes "fine, if thats how it has to be I'll just do it." He's done things he hates doing, like reading Calliopes writing, in order to get ahead. He makes plans and works to get them to succeed. Even with his abysmal artwork he's objectively terrible but through sheer effort he's made huge improvements. I don't get why Hussie is writing it so that proactive characters get a face full of fail all the time but I'm finding it to be hugely unsatisfying. I love all these characters but I'm finding it hard to root for them when they either gently caress things up all the time or have no agency in the plot. I think its mainly that they aren't earning their happy ending. Except for Terezi. You kick that nasty clown right in the dick girl! Edit: And the wierd thing is that Hussie has actually lectured Caliborn about this! With regards to the Juju where it let the kids bypass all the hardship and get their development without earning it. The same priciple applies here. The characters need to win in the end because they worked at it and deserve to win. Not through some bullshit magical mcguffin or blind luck or a deus ex machina. Nephthys fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Oct 2, 2013 |
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Oct 2, 2013 00:52
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Seeing Vriska just  about everything has gotta be the bleakest moment of Homestuck yet.
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Oct 2, 2013 01:12
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WAR FOOT posted:Seeing Vriska just Chin up! She's still hopelessly self-centered and solely focused on how her pig ignorant sociopathy has effected her above all else. There's some life in them old bones yet. e. tho if another pivotal character moment happens offscreen or despite the character, I'm gonna pitch a loving fit. paranoid randroid fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Oct 2, 2013 |
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Oct 2, 2013 01:20
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What I'm guessing / hoping that the deal with all the passive characters is that Hussie's going for a "going off half-cocked is worse than not acting at all" deal, to tie in with the emotional maturity theme. Vriska kept making plans that weren't very good and winging it. They failed. Act-4 Rose planned, but planned in ways that weren't true to herself. Act 3 Jade pulled all kinds of crazy time maneuvers, but because she didn't have the whole picture, it ended up handing Jack the session. The true Hussie protagonist is like the guy in the kung-fu fight who just stands there and defends against his enemies blows, usually making them look like accidental parries, until the very end of the fight, when he finished everything with one calculated, heart-ripping move. Or, at least, that's my guess.
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Oct 2, 2013 01:27
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ALEX TRILLTON posted:Does anyone actually get the point behind the whole "the more passive the hero, the better" theme? It seems vaguely self-contradictory since the story wouldn't have properly started had John not, you know, been proactive and eaten the apple. I think Homestuck is among other things, a story about growing up. I think Hussie is in part reacting against the idea that people grow up by making Heroic Decisive Actions that Change Everything. This has always been a story where goofing around with your friends has been just as important as saving the world -- in fact, you can't do one without the other. Moments of success, in Homestuck, are usually moments when characters act out of genuine compassion and concern for their friends -- or out of genuine curiosity and interest in new people or things. This often comes off as reactive ("X is in danger/in pain, I have to help them!") but I don't think that's the dividing line. Rather, it's egotistical action that's punished; Vriska and Aranea's schemes are fundamentally motivated by their obsession with living up to an impossible ideal of heroic badassery. So are Tavros' doomed last stand and Eridan's lethal tantrum. Genuine self-sacrifice is rewarded, insincere self-sacrifice only makes things worse. (I suspect that the only reason Rose and Dave's "suicide mission" ended happily is that they ultimately went together, and that their decision to do so was motivated by compassion -- not wanting each other to be alone.) Egotistical inaction is also punished, as with Dave and Dirk's brooding and Jake's self-absorbed obliviousness. Again, the critical factor seems to be communication, openness and genuine friendship. Scenes where characters are working on a plan or a relationship together are usually good signs, even if they involve a lot of argument. Scenes where two characters are talking past each other without communicating, ore where one character is cutting him/herself off from others, are inevitably bad signs. Caliborn is bad and doomed because he deliberately destroys his only real relationship, and views everyone else he meets as obstacles or pawns. Vriska's redeeming moments, so far, have been those where she shows signs of caring about other people for what they are, rather than for what she can make out of them. I think Homestuck will ultimately end in a way not unlike a shounen anime for 13-year-olds: It'll be the Power of Friendship that saves the day. Inevitably, there will be plenty of jokes lampshading how cheesy and cliche this is, but that won't make it any less sincere.
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Oct 2, 2013 01:31
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Personally since the point (and the ultimate riddle) of this story seems to be fighting predestination, I think they're gonna keep failing till the very end. The final objective here is to escape the "perfect" cycle that Caliborn (or is it?) has created. And even that is gonna have a big twist, I suspect.
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Oct 2, 2013 02:11
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Nephthys posted:Good points I basically completely agree, especially on how Caliborn's actually put work in while John's barely aware of what's going on around him. A wise man once said if the protagonist has no idea what's at stake and doesn't understand their own actions or what effect they have on the plot, it's hard for them to be an effective protagonist. Bobulus posted:More good points DSPaul posted:Even more good points This is hopefully the intent and where things are going, yeah. I guess it's part of the nature of having a story this long that we get uneasy about whether Hussie's actually going to bring things full circle and deliver on all the arcs and themes he's set up. As evidence that he will, I think Problem Sleuth works - it was much more shallow and could've ended with a jokey anticlimax, but Hussie gave it a grand ending and winding epilogue. Homestuck'll probably get a similar cathartic payoff, with at least most of the heroes reaching some clear summit of personal growth and using those lessons to take proactive action and beat Lord English/Caliborn/predestination/what have you.
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Oct 2, 2013 02:12
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So this means Vriska just got her Persona, right? That's what this means?
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Oct 2, 2013 02:16
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Nephthys posted:Right now the character who deserves to win the most is loving Caliborn! Because he's actually tried and put real effort into things. When Hussie tells him is quest is going to be tough and tedious he just goes "fine, if thats how it has to be I'll just do it." He's done things he hates doing, like reading Calliopes writing, in order to get ahead. He makes plans and works to get them to succeed. Even with his abysmal artwork he's objectively terrible but through sheer effort he's made huge improvements. Well, here's the thing. When you treat life, the universe, and everything as a game that has a victory condition, the party most likely to win is probably going to be a proactive sociopath. Because, no matter what, you will never be as willing to do what it takes to win as the sociopath will when the stakes are that high. Hence, Caliborn. The kids and surviving trolls are relatively normal people who basically had a bunch of bullshit foisted on them and largely don't know how to deal with it aside from floundering awkwardly. Meanwhile the psycopathic rear end in a top hat does what comes naturally and gets ahead until the game itself is undermined via a glitch so people can just live without having to deal with the bullshit any more (or Caliborn actually wins and most of the readers who aren't Objectivists interpret it as a Bad End, we don't know yet). It's a parable or something, I dunno.
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Oct 2, 2013 02:33
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This is one hell of a parable.
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Oct 2, 2013 02:57
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Thundarr posted:Well, here's the thing. When you treat life, the universe, and everything as a game that has a victory condition, the party most likely to win is probably going to be a proactive sociopath. Because, no matter what, you will never be as willing to do what it takes to win as the sociopath will when the stakes are that high. Hence, Caliborn. The kids and surviving trolls are relatively normal people who basically had a bunch of bullshit foisted on them and largely don't know how to deal with it aside from floundering awkwardly. Meanwhile the psycopathic rear end in a top hat does what comes naturally and gets ahead until the game itself is undermined via a glitch so people can just live without having to deal with the bullshit any more (or Caliborn actually wins and most of the readers who aren't Objectivists interpret it as a Bad End, we don't know yet). It's a parable or something, I dunno. I suppose if Caliborn won, it could be interpreted as a cautionary tale about the consequences of "floundering awkwardly" and general incompetence when faced with a situation where extremely powerful and determined assholes are destroying literally everything. I reeeaaaaally don't see anything like that coming from Hussie, but it could be a more true-to-life alternative to the whole ~friendship is magic~ way of things working out. It would also incite a frothing pathological rage that engulfs the internet, and results in a teenager in gray body paint assassinating Andrew Hussie at an anime convention.
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Oct 2, 2013 03:30
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Could somebody please tell me the artists for the songs "Catapult Capuchin" and "Science Seahorse" on AlterniaBound?
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Oct 2, 2013 03:43
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Update goes well with Cobalt Thief. And though I don't have the laptop available, anyone who bought the Alternian album off band camp I think has the credits in a txt file. There's also a project retagging all Homestuck music to reflect credit on the composers too.
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Oct 2, 2013 03:46
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Recently I started to notice how much I've missed the headbutting characters in Hivebent, and the more self loathing fatalist mood. A boisterous Vriska that thought she was luckless and blamed everything but her, Karkat's past/present/future logs, etc. (also it seems that was from when death had some actual impact I guess)
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Oct 2, 2013 03:48
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Doug Rattman posted:Could somebody please tell me the artists for the songs "Catapult Capuchin" and "Science Seahorse" on AlterniaBound? Toby "Radiation" Fox for both.
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Oct 2, 2013 03:49
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Ariong posted:Toby "Radiation" Fox for both. Thanks
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Oct 2, 2013 03:57
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Eh, to me that was just a whole heap of expository dialogue dumping on us the fact that all of what Vriska has done since dying didn't mean squat. Vriskatime™ is getting increasingly not awesome. 
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Oct 2, 2013 11:10
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It was never awesome.
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Oct 2, 2013 11:13
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Bongo Bill posted:It was never awesome. It was awesome to the max. 
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Oct 2, 2013 11:16
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Bongo Bill posted:It was never awesome. It's taken a while, but you've finally said something I can never agree with. Bongo Bill, I am disappoint.
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Oct 2, 2013 11:33
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Vriskatime is awesome, like watching a trainwreck in slow motion. Okay, maybe not slow motion.
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Oct 2, 2013 12:09
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Vriskatime is seeing an accident occur on the road, and then watching in sublime wonder as everyone driving by swerves into the pileup to debate how justified the accident was.
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Oct 2, 2013 12:13
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H.P. Shivcraft posted:Vriskatime is seeing an accident occur on the road, and then watching in sublime wonder as everyone driving by swerves into the pileup to debate how justified the accident was. And then there's one or two people saying that the accident was heroic, which makes even less sense in the context of this tortured metaphor.
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Oct 2, 2013 13:31
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Cabbit posted:It was awesome to the max.
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Oct 2, 2013 13:59
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Roger Explosion posted:Eh, to me that was just a whole heap of expository dialogue dumping on us the fact that all of what Vriska has done since dying didn't mean squat. I think that was kind of the point? Vriska's relevance ended the moment she got stabbed and almost all of her actions since then have been her way of trying to defy this fate. Now she's finally coming to terms with what and more importantly why this happened, which hopefully has a positive effect on her in the future.
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Oct 2, 2013 14:36
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MechanicalTomPetty posted:I think that was kind of the point? Vriska's relevance ended the moment she got stabbed and almost all of her actions since then have been her way of trying to defy this fate. Now she's finally coming to terms with what and more importantly why this happened, which hopefully has a positive effect on her in the future.
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Oct 2, 2013 15:10
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Roger Explosion posted:Having a character as great as hers end with that climactic-as-hell back stab would've made her much more memorable in the long-run. I think there's a decent chance she and Meenah would agree with that sentiment and pull a Han Solo near the end. But not entirely to "look good", sincethat would invalidate this here character development, but have at least an element of actual desire to help their friends.
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Oct 2, 2013 19:05
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Yeah, the Han Solo in New Hope / Mouse from Reboot role has been how I've been envisioning the end of Vriska's story for a while. The only wrinkle this added is that she might stay dead while doing it.
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Oct 2, 2013 19:09
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Now that the possibility of Meenah suplexing LE through a table has been raised, I won't be happy if Homestuck ends without it happening. bah scrawd its the people's eelbow
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Oct 2, 2013 19:42
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Bell_ posted:Update goes well with Cobalt Thief. That'd be Walliard's Tagstuck.
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Oct 2, 2013 19:57
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