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jeffersonlives posted:He didn't work midcard program with guys that were long established as midcard guys or job guys, they used him in US title programs as the number two regular heel against other top guys in second or third from the top programs, which was also stupid but far less stupid than what you're suggesting. There's a huge difference between a US title program with DDP or Sting and a US title program with Perry Saturn. Right, but do you not see how insular that reasoning is? Hart's already a star, why does he have to exclusively work with other guys that have already been established? This is where the "WCW didn't create stars" line of thinking grows out of: they take a top guy, give him a secondary belt, and then have him feud with nothing but 40 year old former champions? You look at Perry Saturn today as being so far removed from Sting because WCW artificially created that separation, not because he couldn't have gone out and had a great series of matches with Bret Hart. Heaven forbid WCW actually trying to get their young midcard talent any additional attention! WCW had such an incredible midcard and even if it was just on free TV, it'd be great to see Bret interact with them rather than play political games. But no, you're right, clearly that's worse than giving Hart no direction at all because something something Perry Saturn sucks.
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Oct 7, 2013 18:15
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laz0rbeak posted:Yeah I think WWE's use of the Big Show is in some ways worse because they took a guy who had all the tools to be a huge star but needed some work in the ring, and basically mangled his character, turned him about six times, and had him feud with Big Bossman for an extended period of time. I think part of it is he had some bad habits after working in WCW and wasn't as main event ready as they originally thought, but dang did they do an awful job with him in 1999. The funniest part of all this is apparently Vince would talk to Meltzer about how "WCW doesn't know how to book a Giant, they're using him on too many shows and making him look vulnerable!" Then Vince gets him, signs him to a huge contract, and to make it worth the money he uses him on all his shows and ruins his big man mystique.
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Oct 7, 2013 18:16
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laz0rbeak posted:Right, but do you not see how insular that reasoning is? Hart's already a star, why does he have to exclusively work with other guys that have already been established? This is where the "WCW didn't create stars" line of thinking grows out of: they take a top guy, give him a secondary belt, and then have him feud with nothing but 40 year old former champions? You look at Perry Saturn today as being so far removed from Sting because WCW artificially created that separation, not because he couldn't have gone out and had a great series of matches with Bret Hart. Heaven forbid WCW actually trying to get their young midcard talent any additional attention! You would bring him in and have him work with the big stars at first to make him seem like he is a big deal then stick him with the midcarders. If you just take him and stick him with people like Saturn it would do nothing for them and only hurt Hart.
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Oct 7, 2013 18:18
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triplexpac posted:The funniest part of all this is apparently Vince would talk to Meltzer about how "WCW doesn't know how to book a Giant, they're using him on too many shows and making him look vulnerable!" Don't forget jobbing him immediately on Raw.
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Oct 7, 2013 18:21
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bobkatt013 posted:You would bring him in and have him work with the big stars at first to make him seem like he is a big deal then stick him with the midcarders. If you just take him and stick him with people like Saturn it would do nothing for them and only hurt Hart. Right, but my point is, once he's U.S. Champion, they clearly don't have anything for him to do, why does he keep feuding with guys who don't need the title at all like Sting, instead of somebody like Benoit or Jericho who could actually use a program with Hart to move to the "next level"? He'd be ideal for it because like Flair and Savage, Hitman was small enough to believably sell for guys that weren't 6'5" and 250 pounds. I mean the one thing he had going for him is he was a great worker: you've got hours of TV time to fill, send him out there and showcase his skills. There's no reason not to put him on every Nitro.
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Oct 7, 2013 18:24
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laz0rbeak posted:Right, but my point is, once he's U.S. Champion, they clearly don't have anything for him to do, why does he keep feuding with guys who don't need the title at all like Sting, instead of somebody like Benoit or Jericho who could actually use a program with Hart to move to the "next level"? He'd be ideal for it because like Flair and Savage, Hitman was small enough to believably sell for guys that weren't 6'5" and 250 pounds. You are forgetting the most important thing. This is WCW.
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Oct 7, 2013 18:25
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laz0rbeak posted:Right, but my point is, once he's U.S. Champion, they clearly don't have anything for him to do, why does he keep feuding with guys who don't need the title at all like Sting, instead of somebody like Benoit or Jericho who could actually use a program with Hart to move to the "next level"? He'd be ideal for it because like Flair and Savage, Hitman was small enough to believably sell for guys that weren't 6'5" and 250 pounds. WCW wanted (or at least, should have wanted) Bret Hart to be a focus of their show when he came in - properly booked (easier said than done), his program with whatever main eventer would've drawn good money. You don't bring in a hot property to start building up your second- and third-tier guys. You ride the hot property to make money. Even if you had Bret Hart come in and wrestle Saturn, it's incredibly counter-productive: if Bret beats Saturn in one or two matches, the fans expect that, and forget it a week later. If Bret loses, then Bret's stock has just greatly diminished in favor of Saturn, who probably looks (very) good, but even with increased stock, hasn't become anywhere near the value Bret was. By comparison, Vince McMahon was instantly a mega-heel, and began a feud with their top face star - Steve Austin. Austin had just spent the last year and a half climbing the WWF ranks. He was primed to become a big main event star, and McMahon pushed him over the top. The WWF didn't waste Vince on getting Val Venis or Taka Michinoku over. Red fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Oct 7, 2013 |
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Oct 7, 2013 18:46
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Red posted:WCW wanted (or at least, should have wanted) Bret Hart to be a focus of their show when he came in - properly booked (easier said than done), his program with whatever main eventer would've drawn good money. As mentioned, I'm talking once he's the directionless U.S. champ, not when he comes in. And despite people chiming in that he was super sympathetic, I don't know that Bret could've been what you're describing, even without the politics of WCW keeping him from doing it. And yeah, how weird that WWF didn't use their #1 non-wrestling heel who already had history with Austin in a program with Val Venis. Clearly that's the same situation as a workhorse guy like Bret Hart having 15-20 minute matches with people commonly seen as "below" him. By the way, Austin's actually a great example of what I was talking about earlier. I know he was signed before the audiences got hot for people jumping ship, but Vince built up Austin through 96 and 97 so he didn't feel like an "outsider." They didn't have his character live in the past, they weren't sitting there talking about his program with Steamboat or his U.S. title reigns, and while they acknowledged that he and Pillman had history, they were out there telling a story that was entertaining even without the fans needing information about their WCW background. He also moved up the card gradually: after winning KOTR, Austin won a few PPV matches against lower tier guys like Marc Mero and Triple H before feuding with Bret Hart, a guy that was already "made" by that time. And Bret Hart takes a guy the crowd already respects, even as a heel, and turns him into a mega-babyface. If Austin doesn't earn the crowd's love as a babyface, I don't know that he ever becomes the huge star he ends up becoming. Just plugging somebody into a company based entirely on name recognition is no guarantee of success.
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Oct 7, 2013 19:08
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Austin was a.) pegged as a future major major major headliner from like his second week in the business and b.) already one of the hottest guys in wrestling before he had his program with Hart. Perry Saturn was not pegged as a headliner by anyone ever and was cold as ice until like late-1999 or 2000 in WCW.
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Oct 7, 2013 19:13
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laz0rbeak posted:Yes, it was literally a storyline featuring dudes calling themselves "The Outsiders" doing an invasion angle that made WCW hot. Hogan as a babyface just prior to that didn't really move the needle at all. Hogan as the leader of an invading force of WWF guys with Flair, Sting, and Luger fighting them drew like crazy. It's almost like a big section of WCW fans didn't appreciate Hogan suddenly showing up and being treated like the top guy. When Hogan jumped to WCW he moved PPVs in a big way. He cooled off after 18 months, but initially he was a difference maker on PPV.
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Oct 7, 2013 19:19
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laz0rbeak posted:As mentioned, I'm talking once he's the directionless U.S. champ, not when he comes in. And despite people chiming in that he was super sympathetic, I don't know that Bret could've been what you're describing, even without the politics of WCW keeping him from doing it. You've edited some of your past posts, so I can't quote it now, but I recall it saying that Hart might as well just go out there and put on good matches with underrated guys. That sounds fun, and I'd love watching it, but that's not where the money was/is. I realize you're not trying to defend WCW's major business decisions and/or politics, but the solution isn't "just have him work with Saturn, I guess". Edit: It needs to be repeated that Bischoff had agreed to pay Bret millions. I realize WCW was making GBS threads money out on a lot of awful ideas, but at least Bret could've made some money back for them, as opposed to KISS/Master P/Battledome/Michael Buffer/Chucky the Doll. Red fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Oct 7, 2013 |
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Oct 7, 2013 19:21
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saturn had a cool moveset but was really bad and killed crowds dead.
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Oct 7, 2013 19:24
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I'm not sure what is dumber, paying Bret Hart millions per year and doing what they did with him or feuding him with Saturn. At least with what happened there was the intention and set up for a Hogan/Hart feud before Goldberg caught fire.
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Oct 7, 2013 19:29
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Saturn was bad? I remember wishing there was more of him every time I saw him, and I don't remember him being botchy. A spotmonkey, maybe, but I don't remember him having bad fundamentals.
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Oct 7, 2013 19:29
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Halloween Jack posted:Saturn was bad? I remember wishing there was more of him every time I saw him, and I don't remember him being botchy. A spotmonkey, maybe, but I don't remember him having bad fundamentals. he would get out of breath like right away, his selling was awful, he had no pacing or storytelling ability whatsoever. he freaking ruled in revenge though.
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Oct 7, 2013 19:32
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Saturn was fun to watch and had some good matches in WCW, especially tags later on. In retrospect he sure wasn't that great compared to the majority of WCW's midcard which was full of incredible talent.
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Oct 7, 2013 19:40
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Saturn was like the best video game wrestler come to life - awesome moves, lovely matches.
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Oct 7, 2013 19:41
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MassRafTer posted:Saturn was fun to watch and had some good matches in WCW, especially tags later on. In retrospect he sure wasn't that great compared to the majority of WCW's midcard which was full of incredible talent. Saturn's gimmick with a concussion ---> loving a mop woman is pretty much where he belonged.
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Oct 7, 2013 20:08
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I love that the conversation is now about Perry Saturn since I named him in a list as a guy that could have cool matches with Bret Hart. I stand by that, too. Hart/Saturn for Starracde 1998! Seriously though, Saturn ruled, both in real life and in Revenge. Maybe it's just that he worked with Raven, Eddy and Chris Jericho, but they made him seem like a beast. Looking at his 1998, he had a strong match with Booker, then led Goldberg to an 8 minute match where Goldberg is the one who looked gassed, then has a series of solid matches with Raven. Underrated part of the WCW midcard for sure. jeffersonlives posted:Austin was a.) pegged as a future major major major headliner from like his second week in the business and b.) already one of the hottest guys in wrestling before he had his program with Hart. Perry Saturn was not pegged as a headliner by anyone ever and was cold as ice until like late-1999 or 2000 in WCW. Austin was definitely not seen as a major headliner by 1995. He looked like a reliable hand, but Bischoff didn't see him as a top name (fired while injured), and Vince called him "The Ringmaster." Yeah in hindsight he was awesome and you can see shades of it in WCW, but nobody would've predicted he'd be one of the biggest stars of all time. And it's like you're just deliberately not understanding my point about a connection with the audience. Austin was getting over as an edgy heel, but if you don't see how his Bret Hart feud completely changed the crowd's perception of Austin, I can't help you.
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Oct 7, 2013 20:45
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laz0rbeak posted:Austin was definitely not seen as a major headliner by 1995. He looked like a reliable hand, but Bischoff didn't see him as a top name (fired while injured), and Vince called him "The Ringmaster." Yeah in hindsight he was awesome and you can see shades of it in WCW, but nobody would've predicted he'd be one of the biggest stars of all time. And it's like you're just deliberately not understanding my point about a connection with the audience. Austin was getting over as an edgy heel, but if you don't see how his Bret Hart feud completely changed the crowd's perception of Austin, I can't help you. Before Bischoff got power Flair was grooming him to be a main eventer in WCW. He was working with Steamboat and it was obvious that he was going to be huge.
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Oct 7, 2013 20:52
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bobkatt013 posted:Before Bischoff got power Flair was grooming him to be a main eventer in WCW. He was working with Steamboat and it was obvious that he was going to be huge. I want to say losing to Hacksaw Jim Duggan negates any theories of upward mobility, but I've done my best to block out any Austin/Hacksaw matches, so I can't really remember.
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Oct 7, 2013 21:00
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Red posted:I want to say losing to Hacksaw Jim Duggan negates any theories of upward mobility, but I've done my best to block out any Austin/Hacksaw matches, so I can't really remember. That was after Bischoff got power and started to bring in all of Hogan's friends.
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Oct 7, 2013 21:01
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laz0rbeak posted:I love that the conversation is now about Perry Saturn since I named him in a list as a guy that could have cool matches with Bret Hart. I stand by that, too. Hart/Saturn for Starracde 1998! Austin was in WCW before his second full year in the business and was in fact seen as a future top heel. No one saw him as "The biggest star in wrestling ever" but realistically the only guys who got that kind of label before their big league debut and have it hold up were the Rock and John Cena. He wasn't given The Ringmaster gimmick to be buried, Vince honestly thought that Ted Dibiase would be an asset as his manager. It flopped like many things in that era did. However, he was seen as someone who was going to be a big star very early on. He was a pretty major free agent in 95 too with Heyman praying that AJPW would sign him before the WWF did, because then he would get Austin while he was home from AJPW tours. You can even look in old Observers and see Dave bemoaning WCW's handling of Austin. He wasn't seen as "The guy" but he was seen as a Kurt Angle type star.
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Oct 7, 2013 21:30
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Dibiase in that period was given virtually every heel that they had plans for, because they were trying to turn Dibiase into the new Freddie Blassie/Bobby Heenan type character. Then after the initial Million Dollar Corporation ace push didn't work out, they almost immediately launched a second push for Austin with only a slight repackaging, which in WWF is virtually unheard of, and during both pushes they constantly put him over name guys at the houses (extremely rare for a midcard heel) except for when he was working on top with Michaels and Hart, whom he had a couple runs with during this period where laz0rbeak thinks he was not a headliner. And he basically never lost on television. That's how high they were on Steve Austin in 1995 through mid-1996. There was no period after early-1991 where Austin was ever thought of as not being a future headline guy. Even after WCW stop-started him out of the planned Flair feud and title run when they got Hogan and then used him to job for Duggan, he was still considered a huge piece of their future on the heel side, and it was beyond shocking when he was cut. eta: It's also worth noting that the most major factor in Austin's release was not his talent or lack thereof, but that he was being paid nearly main event level money and that before he got hurt he started refusing to do jobs for the Hogan allies because he was (rightfully) upset at the rug being pulled out of his title run and then a planned reformation of the Hollywood Blondes with a big push. He did not handle the "world's highest paid job guy" role as well as Brian Pillman did. This stuff largely led to a booking change from Flair to Kevin Sullivan and Austin got caught in the middle since he was Flair's guy (even though Austin and Flair were not personally close, Flair realized Austin owned) and the one causing the trouble. oldfan fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Oct 7, 2013 |
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Oct 7, 2013 22:35
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Austin was also getting heat for injuries he suffered that WCW thought were faked to get out of jobs which only made the situation worse.
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Oct 7, 2013 22:52
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Strenuous Manflurry posted:Don't forget jobbing him immediately on Raw. I remember his debut at Valentine's day massacre, it was hard not to be impressed. It looked like Paul was gonna be huge. Then they just jobbed him out to Austin right away.
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Oct 7, 2013 22:54
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jeffersonlives posted:And he basically never lost on television. That's how high they were on Steve Austin in 1995 through mid-1996. The only televised loss I can recall by Austin before the Survivor Series match with Bret was the Strap match (IYH: Beware of Dog) he "threw" against Savio Vega - which was on a PPV where the WWF had to make amends for a power outage. Yes, I sat there in front of the TV for an hour, on hold with the cable company.  (Why wasn't Austin booked for IYH: Mind Games?)
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Oct 7, 2013 22:56
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Zack_Gochuck posted:Bret Hart is one of the greatest wrestler of all time, and Sting should have taken the title off Hogan clean and feuded with Hart and won so WCW's top baby face at the time didn't look like a complete chump. I feels like WWE is making the same mistake with Daniel Bryan right now. That is absolutely the only thing I wanted to see after Sting defeating Hogan and the nWo, it was Bret Hart VS. Sting. They didn't give us that, and that was a huge mistake. Bret Hart was welcomed by a hungry WCW audience who were already fantasy booking his future feuds. As an answer to the Montreal Screwjob, WCW should have booked Sting VS. Bret Hart in a face VS. face feud, with Bret winning. That would have made WCW seem like an honorable promotion, as opposed to the WWF, which screwed Bret.
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Oct 8, 2013 00:35
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So WWF's champ is better than WCW's homegrown guy right out of the gate?
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Oct 8, 2013 01:18
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Let's be realistic here. There's a reason why Flair went right to the Main Event and won the Rumble in his first WWF run. Why would you bother shelling out superstar dough for a superstar if you're not going to treat like a loving superstar? That literally makes no sense.
Zack_Gochuck fucked around with this message at 01:34 on Oct 8, 2013 |
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Oct 8, 2013 01:31
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LividLiquid posted:So WWF's champ is better than WCW's homegrown guy right out of the gate? Yes. Then, now, and always.
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Oct 8, 2013 01:35
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flashy_mcflash posted:You can barely see the mustache! It's still crooked though. 
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Oct 8, 2013 02:02
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LividLiquid posted:So WWF's champ is better than WCW's homegrown guy right out of the gate? When you pay that kind of money, yes.
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Oct 8, 2013 02:35
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I wouldn't do Hart vs Sting face vs face so soon, but I think the idea of Hart vs Hogan was a good one until they went in another direction when they had their celebrity summer. Hell you might even convince Hogan to job for Hart if you tell him he gets his win back against Warrior soon!
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Oct 8, 2013 02:39
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WeaponX posted:When you pay that kind of money, yes. I don't think money was an object when it came to WCW's decision-making. They paid Dennis Rodman in the millions to make 2-3 appearances per year.
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Oct 8, 2013 02:48
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laz0rbeak posted:I don't think money was an object when it came to WCW's decision-making. They paid Dennis Rodman in the millions to make 2-3 appearances per year. Dennis Rodman also helped draw the second biggest buyrate in their history. They didn't put him in there against non-stars because they needed to recoup the investment. The whole reason Bischoff didn't bother signing Tyson after RR 98 (WWE hadn't inked the deal yet) was because Bischoff thought he'd never make money on it and wanted to let Vince hang himself.
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Oct 8, 2013 02:52
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MassRafTer posted:Dennis Rodman also helped draw the second biggest buyrate in their history. I'm sorry but road wild 1999 wasn't a big buyrate.
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Oct 8, 2013 03:04
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oldpainless posted:I'm sorry but road wild 1999 wasn't a big buyrate. You know my opinion on the Macho Man.
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Oct 8, 2013 03:09
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MassRafTer posted:You know my opinion on the Macho Man. Oh yeah?
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Is this the de facto Mid-Atlantic thread? The new documentary about Jim Crockett Promotions is pretty good. It's two hours but doesn't drag. All the usual people are there as well as three Crockett brothers. There are RF shoot clips of Flair, Arn, and Dusty. It suffers because there's very little footage since WWE owns everything. They even bought the rediscovered footage after the movie was made. It's not full of new information, but it's fun if you're into WCW history.
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