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Eh. I'm not a huge fan of that. The Alpha Legion is good enough at planning and infiltration that the amount of poo poo that would have to go wrong for that kind of thing would feel forced as hell. The AL book I want to read has two different AL squads on the same planet who are trying to accomplish the same goal, but their planning and execution was so secretive and comparmented that they're completely unaware of each other and trying to accomplish it through incompatible means.
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Oct 9, 2013 00:14
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Khizan posted:Eh. I'm not a huge fan of that. The Alpha Legion is good enough at planning and infiltration that the amount of poo poo that would have to go wrong for that kind of thing would feel forced as hell. Spy vs. Spy 40k. I also agree that bad Alpha Legion plots are usually way too perfect and tenuous. I get the appeal but rarely do plans ever work out perfectly without plot armor, which comes off as gimmicky and silly. Plots that, if they were the protagonist, would be unbelievable and unsatisfyingly without challenge or complication. In real life, even very smart Otto Skorzeny types have to constantly adapt and think on the fly because real life is complicated and unpredictable. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Oct 9, 2013 |
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Oct 9, 2013 00:16
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So I'm gonna take a stab in the dark and say that Since Perpetuals can be made and Abnett's dropped a big clue that the Emperor himself is a Perpetual back in his Mark of Calth short, that humanity was always in the Cabal's plans against chaos ages before the Horus Heresy and that the Emperor is quite the sly one for playing others for his own gains.
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Oct 9, 2013 04:47
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Oh, you think the Cabal made the Emperor?
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Oct 9, 2013 05:04
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Yeah. In Abnett's Unmarked story, Oll Persson is reminiscing about earlier lives and reveals that He was the first other Perpetual he met. That's as far as the clue goes. So I interpreted it this way since I figure if it was anyone else, he would've just named them flat out. And if this is the case, can reveal quite a bit about the motivations behind what's been going on.
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Oct 9, 2013 06:03
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Lead Psychiatry posted:Yeah. In Abnett's Unmarked story, Oll Persson is reminiscing about earlier lives and reveals that He was the first other Perpetual he met. That's almost certainly wrong, though. It's pretty clear in the book that most of them have been around for a long time on their own and that they're a naturally occurring thing. Or at least that they're immortal, not necessarily that they can return from the dead. Even Iwo Jima assassin guy talks about stuff from a thousand years earlier, way before he ever met any aliens.
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Oct 9, 2013 13:17
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Cream_Filling posted:That's almost certainly wrong, though. It's pretty clear in the book that most of them have been around for a long time on their own and that they're a naturally occurring thing. Or at least that they're immortal, not necessarily that they can return from the dead. Even Iwo Jima assassin guy talks about stuff from a thousand years earlier, way before he ever met any aliens. Wait what? I'm almost sure this is wrong, since Grammaticus said he was made a perpetual by the Cabal, and he was the Iwo Jima Assassin. The Cabal's been around a very long time, after all, and it's made up of many different species. One of the themes I like in 40k is that humans, on the whole, don't like taking orders from people who aren't of their species.
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Oct 9, 2013 13:49
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VanSandman posted:Wait what? I'm almost sure this is wrong, since Grammaticus said he was made a perpetual by the Cabal, and he was the Iwo Jima Assassin. The Cabal's been around a very long time, after all, and it's made up of many different species. There's definitely two immortal cabal agents in Unremembered Empire. Iwo Jima guy is the one who killed quote:He was a Perpetual. He had been born that way, a natural Perpetual, but the Cabal had enhanced his abilities. He’d been working for them ever since that recruitment on the beach, old-style bullets zipping and fizzing around his head. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 14:02 on Oct 9, 2013 |
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Oct 9, 2013 13:55
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While we're doing Cabal chat, has BL dropped any hints as to why Eldrad is opposing them?
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Oct 9, 2013 14:01
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That's what I thought as well. But when I looked on Lexicanum and WH40K wiki (Yeah, I need them), they both say that Perpetuals are specifically altered by the Cabal. I can't say if Immortals are natural or not though. But even then, there does seem to be a distinction between that and Perpetual. This would explain the Xenophobia, if right that is. Since, and again I'm speculating here, after he gets what he wants from the Cabal and was probably informed of how humanity was apart of the Cabal's plans, he flips them off, rallies armies and starts conquering. Killing off aliens due to a distrust and not wanting his species to die off. Kinda like what was done towards Chaos (And may even have first learned of them thanks to the Cabal), only more violently right off the bat since mere disbelief wouldn't be enough to fight aliens. And yes, I'm aware this means I'm about as lovely a writer as 90% of BL's lineup. VanSandman posted:Wait what? I'm almost sure this is wrong, since Grammaticus said he was made a perpetual by the Cabal, and he was the Iwo Jima Assassin. The Cabal's been around a very long time, after all, and it's made up of many different species. This is another thing that confuses the gently caress out of me. Psykers. He is one. And yet they're not supposed to come about until what? Year 20k?! Curse this drat universe's lack of consistency. drat. Lead Psychiatry fucked around with this message at 14:05 on Oct 9, 2013 |
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Oct 9, 2013 14:03
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Lead Psychiatry posted:That's what I thought as well. But when I looked on Lexicanum and WH40K wiki (Yeah, I need them), they both say that Perpetuals are specifically altered by the Cabal. I can't say if Immortals are natural or not though. But even then, there does seem to be a distinction between that and Perpetual. The key here is that Lexicanum and WH40k wikis are not at all official or authoritative sources. They're both written by fans and often written quite poorly and/or inaccurately. And even if the quality was better, 40k continuity has been changed many times and almost every source as depicted in-universe is horribly biased and unreliable, with much of it being hearsay from a bunch of semi-literate fanatics thousands of years after the fact. So ultimately you should just pick whatever's most reasonable/fun/convenient for storytelling. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 14:14 on Oct 9, 2013 |
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Oct 9, 2013 14:05
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Lead Psychiatry posted:This is another thing that confuses the gently caress out of me. Psykers. He is one. And yet they're not supposed to come about until what? Year 20k?! Curse this drat universe's lack of consistency. drat. No, psykers became common and scientifically understood around 20k. It's implied that they've always existed. If you go by the old outdated RT-era fluff, early human civilization was guided and shaped by a group of shamans with psychic powers, and a lot of the myths and legends of magic and wizards may have been based on real events before changes in the warp-realspace interface around 1 AD or 1000 AD made psychic phenomena less visible for a while.
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Oct 9, 2013 14:09
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Cream_Filling posted:No, psykers became common and scientifically understood around 20k. It's implied that they've always existed. If you go by the old outdated RT-era fluff, early human civilization was guided and shaped by a group of shamans with psychic powers, and a lot of the myths and legends of magic and wizards may have been based on real events before changes in the warp-realspace interface around 1 AD or 1000 AD made psychic phenomena less visible for a while. Ohh ok. I thought that the gene only appeared around then, which led to a whole bunch of pantsshitting and then theorized their arrival brought on Old Night. Also thanks for the segment straight from Unremembered Empire. It'll be a while since I get to it, but see your point way more clearly now.
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Oct 9, 2013 14:26
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Lead Psychiatry posted:This is another thing that confuses the gently caress out of me. Psykers. He is one. And yet they're not supposed to come about until what? Year 20k?! Curse this drat universe's lack of consistency. drat. Edit: Cream_Filling handled the psyker thing. My confusion is whether or not the whole "natural perpetual" thing is a re-boot of the sensei thread from the 90s, would all these guys be the Emperor's biological kids?
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Oct 9, 2013 15:35
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Okay. So being a perpetual in Vulkans case is because its a trait inherited from the Emperor, right? If so, wouldn't unplugging the Emperor from the Golden Throne revive him? Or was the wound he sustained from Horus too grievous?
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Oct 9, 2013 16:36
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Blacktoll posted:Okay. So being a perpetual in Vulkans case is because its a trait inherited from the Emperor, right? If so, wouldn't unplugging the Emperor from the Golden Throne revive him? Or was the wound he sustained from Horus too grievous? Possibly. It appears that certain weapons and psyker actions can kill a perpetual, so depending on how the final fight goes down he may be able to recover, or may not
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Oct 9, 2013 16:44
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Blacktoll posted:Okay. So being a perpetual in Vulkans case is because its a trait inherited from the Emperor, right? If so, wouldn't unplugging the Emperor from the Golden Throne revive him? Or was the wound he sustained from Horus too grievous? It's gonna end up that one of the missing primarchs inherited his divinity isn't it? And that primarch is the source for the Grey Knights and it was all kept hush hush because religion was bad during the crusade.
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Oct 9, 2013 16:56
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Maybe one the missing Primarchs inherited the Emperors trait of "integrity" and that's why he had to go. Because the Emperor sounds like a lying dick. "There are no gods/magic entities/ imperial truth. Etc."
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Oct 9, 2013 16:59
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Blacktoll posted:Maybe one the missing Primarchs inherited the Emperors trait of "integrity" and that's why he had to go. Because the Emperor sounds like a lying dick. "There are no gods/magic entities/ imperial truth. Etc." No that was Angron.
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Oct 9, 2013 17:14
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Demiurge4 posted:It's gonna end up that one of the missing primarchs inherited his divinity isn't it? And that primarch is the source for the Grey Knights and it was all kept hush hush because religion was bad during the crusade. One of them probably inherited his atheism, and was annihilated and expunged for being a smug bastard. The other started the 30k version of r/mra, I bet.
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Oct 9, 2013 17:19
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I thought Angrons trait was being pissy.
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Oct 9, 2013 17:30
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Shroud posted:One of them probably inherited his atheism, and was annihilated and expunged for being a smug bastard. The other started the 30k version of r/mra, I bet. "Those loving femaxenos need to stop with the false exterminautus claims."
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Oct 9, 2013 17:32
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Blacktoll posted:I thought Angrons trait was being pissy. Read Betrayer 
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Oct 9, 2013 17:35
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I just finished Baneblade, and I can recommend it pretty highly. It's a little slow to start, and the author jumps back and forth through time so you see the protagonist's backstory, but about a third of the way in, the story gets pretty drat good. It's, of course, heavy on the IG/superheavy tank stuff, but there is also a healthy dose of Orks - Blood Axes, to be specific - and a psychic Gargant. This book has certainly put Guy Haley on my radar as a readable (and enjoyable) BL author.
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Oct 9, 2013 18:20
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Blacktoll posted:Okay. So being a perpetual in Vulkans case is because its a trait inherited from the Emperor, right? If so, wouldn't unplugging the Emperor from the Golden Throne revive him? Or was the wound he sustained from Horus too grievous? It's possible that all of the primarchs are like Vulkan and can continually regenerate unless killed by another Primarch and/or warp sorcery in a certain way. We have no way of telling. Ferrus Manus, the only confirmed dead primarch, was killed by some weird chaos blade of some sort in the hands of another primarch, and this would also explain why the Emperor killing Horus in some super psychic way at the end of the heresy is so relevant. Just like daemons can't be killed, it's possible that the primarchs themselves are sort of non-evil daemon princes consisting of a warp spirit (possibly a portion of the Emperor's soul) bound to a super-human body, and can regenerate or re-incarnate their physical forms even after death like Vulkan apparently can. Though I stress that this last sentence is complete speculation which I made up. And the whole debate over allowing the emperor to die so he can be reborn was a thing in the Inquisitor skirmish game manual and a lot of older fluff. The problem is that humanity is so utterly dependent on the emperor, so little is understood about the emperor (especially since Malcador also dies around the same time), and the risk is so insanely high in case something does go wrong that supposedly the lords of terra decided not to do so back at the beginning, though this also sowed the seed of massive factional disagreements within the future inquisition.
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Oct 9, 2013 18:38
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Cream_Filling posted:And the whole debate over allowing the emperor to die so he can be reborn was a thing in the Inquisitor skirmish game manual and a lot of older fluff. The problem is that humanity is so utterly dependent on the emperor, so little is understood about the emperor (especially since Malcador also dies around the same time), and the risk is so insanely high in case something does go wrong that supposedly the lords of terra decided not to do so back at the beginning, though this also sowed the seed of massive factional disagreements within the future inquisition. If the Astronomican so much as blinks the entire Imperium dissolves into small-c chaos overnight. I'm currently working up a plot by something like the Cognitae to sneak a major demon through the Black Ship system and into the palace. Even if it can't open the webway gate just killing the Astronomican choir would be a lethal blow to the Imperium.
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Oct 9, 2013 19:05
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mllaneza posted:If the Astronomican so much as blinks the entire Imperium dissolves into small-c chaos overnight. I'm currently working up a plot by something like the Cognitae to sneak a major demon through the Black Ship system and into the palace. Even if it can't open the webway gate just killing the Astronomican choir would be a lethal blow to the Imperium. Is this for an RPG or something? Because that sounds ridiculously large-scale. Why are you choosing terra for that instead of a smaller scale thing? Just say they're trying to usher in a warp storm that will cut off a whole star cluster or segmentum or something and doom billions to darkness instead of all of humanity. Dunno, it's your story/your game, so do whatever you want, but that was just my first thought when hearing your idea. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Oct 9, 2013 |
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Oct 9, 2013 19:11
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Plus the thought of a major demon actually getting anywhere close to the black ships is laughable. There are blanks and pariahs on those things.
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Oct 9, 2013 19:28
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VanSandman posted:Plus the thought of a major demon actually getting anywhere close to the black ships is laughable. There are blanks and pariahs on those things. I'm still hashing out the mechanics, but it's a big enough goal that some cultist would try it, even with only a miniscule chance of success. My current thinking is using Dark Eldar psychic torture/surgery tools to try and hide the demonic payload deep within a psyker's mind. I don't want it to actually succeed, that'd end the setting and BL wouldn't buy my story.
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Oct 9, 2013 19:48
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You'd have better luck bribing a Custodes.
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Oct 9, 2013 19:52
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Nephilm posted:You'd have better luck bribing a Custodes. So long as the worst case scenario is bad enough to give the Inquisition conniptions when they hear about it.
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Oct 9, 2013 19:58
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mllaneza posted:I'm still hashing out the mechanics, but it's a big enough goal that some cultist would try it, even with only a miniscule chance of success. My current thinking is using Dark Eldar psychic torture/surgery tools to try and hide the demonic payload deep within a psyker's mind. I don't want it to actually succeed, that'd end the setting and BL wouldn't buy my story. If you aren't a published sci-fi author, you won't win BL's writing contest.
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Oct 9, 2013 20:05
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mllaneza posted:So long as the worst case scenario is bad enough to give the Inquisition conniptions when they hear about it. A greater daemon coming loose on an important waystation on the process to Terra would be pretty damaging. Really, it's not so much about getting to the Palace (which it won't), but at which step of the way a daemon would be detected or otherwise break free and the damage it would cause before contained. Also note that powerful daemons also require extensive rituals, conditions and preparations to properly manifest, but I suppose that part can be played more loosely.
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Oct 9, 2013 20:19
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Nephilm posted:A greater daemon coming loose on an important waystation on the process to Terra would be pretty damaging. Really, it's not so much about getting to the Palace (which it won't), but at which step of the way a daemon would be detected or otherwise break free and the damage it would cause before contained. Even a partial success would be a win for the cultists, even taking out a single Black Ship would be big. VanSandman posted:If you aren't a published sci-fi author, you won't win BL's writing contest. Sad but all too likely true. I'll keep writing though.
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Oct 9, 2013 21:48
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VanSandman posted:Oh, you think the Cabal made the Emperor? Wasn't there an exchange between Alpharius and the cabal where they said they wished they'd got the emperor onboard with them as he would have been a great, powerful asset (and they call him a bloodthirsty bastard)? That doesn't sound like the cabal made the Big E
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Oct 9, 2013 22:10
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Nephilm posted:Also note that powerful daemons also require extensive rituals, conditions and preparations to properly manifest, but I suppose that part can be played more loosely.
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Oct 9, 2013 23:22
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Cream_Filling posted:Ferrus Manus, the only confirmed dead primarch, Sanguinius and Curze? And Horus for that matter, though you noted that.
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Oct 9, 2013 23:39
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Kurze at least gets killed by a Ctan phase sword - that thing can cut a hole in the fabric of the universe, so presumably perpetual or not, it's gonna mess you up.
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Oct 9, 2013 23:58
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lenoon posted:Kurze at least gets killed by a Ctan phase sword - that thing can cut a hole in the fabric of the universe, so presumably perpetual or not, it's gonna mess you up. Also he really wanted to die. He might just not want to come back. Same with Dorn, who seems like he was pretty much suicidal after the death of the Emperor. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Oct 10, 2013 |
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Oct 9, 2013 23:59
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JerryLee posted:Sanguinius and Curze? And Horus for that matter, though you noted that.
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Oct 10, 2013 00:06
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