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Update, and some confessions: First: I think there was a bug that was counting three-drop damage slightly higher than it was supposed to during the mono-red analysis. The results should still compare to themselves, but they need to be adjusted when comparing across tests. Second: I've updated official Haste creature code, and put the most basic logic in (if you can put double or more power of normal creatures instead of haste creatures, or if you can win next turn by casting creatures this turn then burn/haste next, do so). I have no test to prove how effective this has been. So to compare the changes, here's what I had last time for Owen's deck: AnacondaHL posted:Mono Red Blitz Experiment #2: Given Owen Turtenwald's deck, the optimal deck is And here it is now: Mono Red Blitz Experiment #2 REDO: Given Owen Turtenwald's deck, the optimal deck is: 12 Rakdos Cackler 4 Burning-Tree Emissary 4 Gore-House Chainwalker 4 Chandra's Phoenix 4 Shock 4 Lightning Strike 6 Goblin Shortcutter 22 Land Average Turn Kill: 4.77 Turn 4 Kill%: 32.1% Turn 5 Kill%: 60.6% Turn 6 Kill%: 6.02% Turn 7 Kill%: 0.85% Turn 8 Kill%: 0.25% Turn 9+ Kill%: 0.17% To branch off for the final experiment, I'll enable the Ash Zealots and we can see how they matchup against the BTE build. Mono Red Blitz Experiment #5: Given a format with Owen's deck but also including up to 4 Ash Zealots, the optimal deck is: 12 Rakdos Cackler 4 Burning-Tree Emissary 4 Ash Zealot 4 Gore-House Chainwalker 4 Chandra's Phoenix 4 Shock 4 Lightning Strike 24 Land Average Turn Kill: 4.62 Turn 4 Kill%: 45.1% Turn 5 Kill%: 48.9% Turn 6 Kill%: 4.84% Turn 7 Kill%: 0.80% Turn 8 Kill%: 0.19% Turn 9+ Kill%: 0.11% A clear improvement, but of course we know the mana awkwardness of BTE's mixed with Ash Zealots. And finally, I feel like the code is clean and flexible enough to be posted for peer evaluation. I've checked it for bugs as much as I can, and those of you who work with code knows how this goes. No more improvements are going to go into the base structure of this without a fresh set of eyes. Also, for those more advanced in Java, if you have any suggestions on how to properly track the SimStats (i.e. the way I fudged using global variables), I'm all ears. http://pastebin.com/Q8kXQ2Ue Okay, enough of this Standard nonsense. Time to explore the aggro and burn strategies of Legacy and Modern.
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Oct 8, 2013 07:01
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Been dying to use murder king and yun pyromancer. Thanks a lot guys that looks so fun.
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Oct 8, 2013 13:58
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Edit...dbl
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Oct 8, 2013 14:07
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Ok, here's the two decks I've assembled the pieces of. maze's end Fog, and Millburn Drysdale. Anyone want to take a look at these and give me tweaking advice? I'm running one or the other at standard Friday night. No clue on the meta.
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Oct 8, 2013 14:24
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kizudarake posted:Ok, here's the two decks I've assembled the pieces of. maze's end Fog, and Millburn Drysdale. I've been playing the fog version of Maze's End a bit online, my suggestions would be to remove all of the Syncopates and Inspirations in order to max out of fogs. I would also play a single Cyclonic Rift and a fourth supreme verdict, second Ętherize or Merciless Eviction with the remaining spots. You can never have too many fogs or wraths. I like a fourth Saruli Gatekeeper over the Elixer of Immortality, at least in the main deck. I think this deck can benefit from a few basic forests as well, so I would cut all of the gates in excess of two for them. So essentially: -2 Syncopate -2 Inspiration -1 Elixer of Immortality -1 Azorius Guildgate -1 Selesnya Guildgate -1 Simic Guildgate +2 Defend the Hearth +1 Cyclonic Rift +1 Saruli Gatekeeper +1 Supreme Verdict OR Ętherize OR Merciless Eviction +3 Forest
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Oct 8, 2013 15:37
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Speaking of maze decks, I'm concerned about how powerful the RDW decks can be. Would adding in anger of the gods be too hard to pull off with the RR needed? Alternatively, I was considering using Pay no heed to shut down the devotion whammy of fanatic of mogis (and other burn stuff) while also serving as a worse one-source fog. Think either of those would be a good idea or would it water down the other wipes and fogs a little too much?
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Oct 8, 2013 15:48
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We ran the Maze's End Deck originally with Anger of the Gods. It didn't play much. We played it mostly against a friends decent-ish Naya aggro deck, and assuming the Mazes End could get running, it'd have a good chance to just keep going and nuking nonstop until it was ready to win. We didn't run any of fog effects, though. Who had the brilliant idea to put fog into the deck? We didn't as it seemed like it would inevitibly be just dead, clumpy cards against control, which you'd eventually have enough of, since your initial win condition can't really be countered.
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Oct 8, 2013 16:47
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AlternateNu posted:Yeah. It is one of those decks where you can't go all in unless your opponent is tapped out or you have a GW or BtE in hand. I like Madcap Skills, too, but I'm sticking with 1 mana boosts, only. You really want to win by turn 5 or (maybe) 6, and you really have to squeeze each boost/counter you can with the little mana you have. That is why I'm only running 2 x Coordinated Assaults because even though it is 2 creatures, unless you're targeting a Phalanx Leader, you will only get +1 with the heroic trigger for Fabled. The first strike is completely redundant. This is in comparison to Swift Justice where SJ is on primary color and gives you lifelink at least. Do you run Favored Hoplite? He works crazy well with Coordinated Assault as a second target, and his little toughness bump means he can tussle with just about anything in turns 2-3 and come out alive after getting a trigger. 2 Coordinated Assaults seems right without him, but with him CA becomes amazing. I think Messenger's Speed is probably a decent post-Wrath play against Control, though I think it's a pretty miserable draw against midrange so it might be best in the sideboard. Still 1-mana Heroic+haste+trample is perfect for Fabled Hero, I'd just be worried about draws where I don't get the Hero but I do get the Messenger's Speed.
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Oct 8, 2013 16:50
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SpookyLizard posted:We ran the Maze's End Deck originally with Anger of the Gods. It didn't play much. We played it mostly against a friends decent-ish Naya aggro deck, and assuming the Mazes End could get running, it'd have a good chance to just keep going and nuking nonstop until it was ready to win. We didn't run any of fog effects, though. Did you guys ever think of playing Silence? One mana and it is great at stalling creature decks once they've been nuked.
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Oct 8, 2013 16:52
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AlternateNu posted:I've been tooling around with a Fabled Hero deck that just pumps him and makes him swing for 10+. And it is super easy to make him unblockable. Just run 4 x Gods Willing and 4 x Brave the Elements. Pro-whatever color your opponent's creature are. Blam! Question about prot-color: If you aput prot-xxx on a creature before blockers are assigned, the opposing player cannot block your creature, but what if you put prot-xxx after the blocker is assigned? I would think the creature still gets blocked but gets to kill the blocker without taking any damage?
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Oct 8, 2013 17:06
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kzin602 posted:Question about prot-color: If you aput prot-xxx on a creature before blockers are assigned, the opposing player cannot block your creature, but what if you put prot-xxx after the blocker is assigned? I would think the creature still gets blocked but gets to kill the blocker without taking any damage? You are right. That is one weakness in that you have to preempt them if you want to go direct. And they can just chain a Lightning Strike or Doom Blade or whatever in response.
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Oct 8, 2013 17:09
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Wildey posted:Speaking of maze decks, I'm concerned about how powerful the RDW decks can be. Would adding in anger of the gods be too hard to pull off with the RR needed? Alternatively, I was considering using Pay no heed to shut down the devotion whammy of fanatic of mogis (and other burn stuff) while also serving as a worse one-source fog. Think either of those would be a good idea or would it water down the other wipes and fogs a little too much? If Anger was considered too hard to pull off due to RR, Verdict would also be too hard to pull off.
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Oct 8, 2013 17:36
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kirtar posted:If Anger was considered too hard to pull off due to RR, Verdict would also be too hard to pull off. 1RR and 1WWU are quite different! In the context of the gates deck, Verdict shares colors with Revelation and Riot Control and Detention Sphere and Azorius Charm (i.e. other awesome control tools) while Anger of the Gods is pretty much the only card you really want in red (maybe Helix and/or Crackling Perimeter) and getting 1RR by turn 3 or even turn 4 can be challenging depends on how you want to develop your mana. AlternateNu posted:Did you guys ever think of playing Silence? One mana and it is great at stalling creature decks once they've been nuked. The fact that Silence doesn't really do anything on its own is kind of a big problem. It's also pretty awkward against Advent of the Wurm, and won't save you against instant-speed burn. Zoness fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Oct 8, 2013 |
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Oct 8, 2013 17:41
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bhsman posted:Would you mind linking to your Twitch(?) account? I'd love to see how the deck runs on MODO. RiceBurrito posted:It was one of my first games trying out a heroic based deck so I'm pretty sure I piloted it like crap. I was actually hoping for one of my Phalanx Leaders to be drawn and buff the crap out of the creatures. I don't have enough time to edit this into component games right now, but here's a nice three hour chunk of murdergoating. RiceBurrito is the last match, the guy who tried to rag on me horribly for playing it is about a half hour before him. Edit: Match with the guy who was berating me then conceded starts at 1:55. Guy's modo name is Saltwater Master. He certianly was salty. YeehawMcKickass fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Oct 8, 2013 |
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Oct 8, 2013 18:34
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YeehawMcKickass posted:I don't have enough time to edit this into component games right now, but here's a nice three hour chunk of murdergoating. Are all the sounds in MODO this over the top?  EDIT: About 20 minutes in when that guy dropped Unflinching Courage and ruined your day; probably the only good way to deal with Enchantments like that is preemptively via Duress and Thoughtseize? EDIT2: About five minutes later with the Young Pyromancer + Molten Birth hand... 
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Oct 8, 2013 19:03
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Ugh, the modo sounds are so loud compared to your voice.. Could only watch for a couple mins before giving up. I'm probably gonna give the deck a try at FNM this week, should be fun.
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Oct 8, 2013 21:09
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accordingtojosh posted:Ugh, the modo sounds are so loud compared to your voice.. Could only watch for a couple mins before giving up. He fixes the MODO sounds after a little while. In the end though, I quit watching after realizing that I was just tabbing out to something else, and forgetting it was on at all. The constant little things like land sequencing mistakes and not attacking when he could either push free damage or spend a burn spell after first strike damage if opponent blocks just got to me too much. That and the constant snap concessions.
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Oct 8, 2013 21:16
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Yeah, modo default sounds suck. I didn't realize I had them up that high initially. Thoughtseize/Duress are probably the best option against Unflinching courage/Fiendslayer Paladin right now. Oldsrocket_27 posted:He fixes the MODO sounds after a little while. In the end though, I quit watching after realizing that I was just tabbing out to something else, and forgetting it was on at all. The constant little things like land sequencing mistakes and not attacking when he could either push free damage or spend a burn spell after first strike damage if opponent blocks just got to me too much. That and the constant snap concessions. Yeah, I wasn't playing optimally nor was I planning on playing optimally last night. Most of the land sequencing stuff you're complaining about is stuff I realized right after I did it. Which snap concessions are you referring to? If you're talking about the Fiendslayer + Unflinching Courage game I quit out on, it's because the deck has no realisitc outs to that (double Rakdos Keyrun or active Purphoros). I have no way of getting rid of the enchantment and I can't target the Paladin with removal. YeehawMcKickass fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Oct 8, 2013 |
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Oct 8, 2013 21:17
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Did some standard testing today, and monogreen devotion seems to be a thing. My friend built a deck, and I'm convincing him to tune it some, but I think it should look something like this: Monogreen Devotion It was some really fun testing, and I threw three decks at it: RDW Esper BWR His deck held it's own against each of these, even against board wipes. We played a 5 game match with RDW, and RDW barely eeked out a victory, 3-2, but lost 1-2 to a normal match. Because we didn't have unlimited time, and sideboards are still sketchy, we didn't spend a whole lot of time working with sideboards. We then realized we only had time to play 3 game matches, and he won the next two, 2-1, and 2-0, although there were some mana issues, especially once he started casting primordials. In order to stabilize, I found I needed successive board wipes...so UWR would do quite well here. We need to formalize our sideboards, and get some more matches in, but I think it's a real deck moving forward. It has some expensive cards to put together, but, overall, it's not too bad (deckstats puts it at $140 via tcgplayer).
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Oct 9, 2013 01:25
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Do Polukranos and Deadbridge Goliath play together as well as I'm imagining in my head? Edit: Read the Friendly Card; they do not.
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Oct 9, 2013 01:34
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Tharizdun posted:Do Polukranos and Deadbridge Goliath play together as well as I'm imagining in my head? Why wouldn't they? Scavenge onto Polly to make him a 10/10 and then eat more dudes (since he will survive targeting more creatures with more toughness). Synergy! Zoness fucked around with this message at 01:41 on Oct 9, 2013 |
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Oct 9, 2013 01:37
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Zoness posted:Why wouldn't they?
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Oct 9, 2013 01:47
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Tharizdun posted:Making Polukranos a 10/10 via scavenge then monstrous for 1 only lets you deal 1 damage, not 6. Sure, but growing Polukranos and then activating him isn't necessarily bad.
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Oct 9, 2013 01:51
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Tharizdun posted:Do Polukranos and Deadbridge Goliath play together as well as I'm imagining in my head? However, Kalonian Hydra (not in that particular list) does 
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Oct 9, 2013 02:19
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The card draw spell you're looking for in MURDERGOATS isn't Read The Bones, it's Altar's Reap. It's reminds me a lot of Thoughtcast in this deck, except now you can EOT it or play it to 2-for-1 a kill spell. Also I think Hammer of Purphoros and Akroan Horse both beat Trading Post; I'm testing a build now that uses 2x Hammer, 2x Horse, 1x Post. Hammer means you can actually turn Purphoros on occasionally and, more importantly, gives everything haste and gives you something to do with excess lands other than pitch them for 4 life. The horse gives you guys that can actually impact combat and also starts spitting them out a turn earlier. I think Trading Post might be just a tiny bit too durdly to work well. Edit: Also I think 4x Reap allows you to drop down to 23 or possibly even 22 lands, but I'll leave that for someone who's better at mana bases. Promoted Pawn fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Oct 9, 2013 |
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Oct 9, 2013 02:43
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Promoted Pawn posted:The card draw spell you're looking for in MURDERGOATS isn't Read The Bones, it's Altar's Reap. It's reminds me a lot of Thoughtcast in this deck, except now you can EOT it or play it to 2-for-1 a kill spell. A draw spell that can't draw you out of an empty board sounds awful. Especially if you're dropping lands for it. Card draw in constructed decks should almost always be non-conditional. Zoness fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Oct 9, 2013 |
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Oct 9, 2013 03:24
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Zoness posted:A draw spell that can't draw you out of an empty board sounds awful. How about a sorcery draw spell that you can't use when you're low? e: to expand, I've had varied success with Read the Bones. It's a draw spell for when you're ahead, and only for when you're ahead. You rarely want to cast it at 3 and if you get behind and need the card advantage you seldom WANT to use it. I've had more success with Underworld Connections and Altar's Reap in decks that can produce a ton of creatures. During testing today I was at 2 on turn 6 and I needed a Doom Blade to clear the way to win - sure RtB would have drawn me deeper but I couldn't have used it. I ended up saccing a Mutavault to Altar's Reap in my opponent's end step and drawing 3 deep. One of those was an Underworld Connections, which I played and activated and got what I needed. Not something I could have done with RtB. If you've got a deck that can generate a ton of tokens (Trading Post, Young Peezy, Molten Birth, Master of Waves, etc.) Altar's Reap is actually good. Balon fucked around with this message at 03:36 on Oct 9, 2013 |
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Oct 9, 2013 03:27
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Balon posted:How about a sorcery draw spell that you can't use when you're low? Fortunately life is a thing that you always have while having creatures is conditional.
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Oct 9, 2013 03:30
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To anyone fiddling with murder goats, do you need 4 purphoros or is 3 good? Also ditto with trading post.
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Oct 9, 2013 03:49
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So in Breakfast Burrito, you can replace Lord of Extinction with the original Lhurgoyf and it will make no difference 99% of the time except for the extra style points you'll get, right?
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Oct 9, 2013 04:24
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Entropic posted:So in Breakfast Burrito, you can replace Lord of Extinction with the original Lhurgoyf and it will make no difference 99% of the time except for the extra style points you'll get, right? Re-read Lord of Extinction.
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Oct 9, 2013 04:35
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jassi007 posted:To anyone fiddling with murder goats, do you need 4 purphoros or is 3 good? Also ditto with trading post. I run 3 just because with 4 you too often have 1 dead in your hand due to the Legendary rule. Same with Tymaret. I find, at least against the aggro meta I'm up against, that you're more concerned with stabilizing first and winning later. I'll usually take a Purphoros or 2 out against something like RDW.
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Oct 9, 2013 04:36
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Entropic posted:So in Breakfast Burrito, you can replace Lord of Extinction with the original Lhurgoyf and it will make no difference 99% of the time except for the extra style points you'll get, right? Incorrect, Lhurgoyf only gets bigger based on creatures (which I doubt you have 20 of); Lord is a 53/53 most of the time.
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Oct 9, 2013 04:37
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Tharizdun posted:Incorrect, Lhurgoyf only gets bigger based on creatures (which I doubt you have 20 of); Lord is a 53/53 most of the time. Yes, but you'll have 19-24 or so creatures in your graveyard almost every time, plus the three counters Triskelion gets normally. 22 to the dome is just as lethal as 50. Even if you exiled 3 spirit guides and a another creature to chrome mox, you still have 4x Tinder Wall, 6 or 7 mill creatures, 3x Narcomoeba, 5x Spirit guides, 1x Wild Cantor in your graveyard for a total of 20. I'm not saying it's a good idea, I just found it amusing that the original silly Ice Age card works almost as well most of the time. Entropic fucked around with this message at 04:50 on Oct 9, 2013 |
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Oct 9, 2013 04:44
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jassi007 posted:To anyone fiddling with murder goats, do you need 4 purphoros or is 3 good? Also ditto with trading post. Same as Promoted Pawn, I've found that 3 Purphoros/3 post plays perfectly fine, I'm running 4/4 online for the next few days, but in paper I've actually been at 3/2. It probably helps that Purphoros is going for 6 tix online but $20 in paper. I was initially considering going down to 3 Tymaret but I think I'm staying at four for the future since he's useful in the graveyard too.
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Oct 9, 2013 05:08
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I'm running 3 Purphoros and 3 post, 4 Tymaret. Purphoros and post, while I do want to have them most of the time, are not so great in multiples, especially early. Post less so, but the deck also functions fine without it until the later game. Tymaret is still a 4-of to me mostly because he's almost always useful. Early, I'm perfectly happy to trade him away, or use him to block and upgrade some burn. Late game, I can get him back or play another as I need. With a Purphoros in play and the new legend rule, two of them give you a repeatable 2 dmg for 1rbb, which is admittedly very slow and inefficient, but it gives you something to do in a slow match against control if you have nothing else. As for Hammer of Akroan horse over trading post, I don't think so, especially for horse. Giving your opponent a blocker can sometimes be a problem, and the additional cost of trading post is usually nullified by its versatility. Remember, it can do more than make goats, and having the option to sac keyrunes for cards if you're flooded or recur some SB ratchet bombs isn't irrelevant. Also, sometimes you just need 4 life. As for the hammer, you're really going in the other direction as using horse, by making the deck even more mana-hungry. Not only is its ability more costly, but it also loses you lands every time, which is a much bigger deal than losing 1 life with a gain-4 on tap. The one mana CC difference doesn't really matter, because you don't often need/want to be jamming that combo piece on curve.
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Oct 9, 2013 05:44
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So in a fit of madness I realized I was only ~17 cards away from a potential Animar EDH deck, so I thought I'd throw it up here for criticism: Primal Surge Animar EDH Basic idea is to drop Animar and start pumping in creatures; the deck could potentially go infinite but there's nothing to really drop that much mana into. Looking over it, I could probably afford to find a copy of Voidmage Husher and Momir Vig, but that's another story. Basically I just want to play this deck in multiplayer EDH and drop Primal Surge and plop down Craterhoof and a billion creatures.
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Oct 9, 2013 06:26
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YeehawMcKickass posted:Same as Promoted Pawn, I've found that 3 Purphoros/3 post plays perfectly fine, I'm running 4/4 online for the next few days, but in paper I've actually been at 3/2. I have been plying this list for a couple of days now and 4 Tymarets are definitely good. If you have Purphoros out just legend rule the one in play and then sac the one you kept to bring him back and recast him. Sure, it's mana intensive but it's cool.
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Oct 9, 2013 07:27
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Oldsrocket_27 posted:As for Hammer of Akroan horse over trading post, I don't think so, especially for horse. Giving your opponent a blocker can sometimes be a problem, and the additional cost of trading post is usually nullified by its versatility. Remember, it can do more than make goats, and having the option to sac keyrunes for cards if you're flooded or recur some SB ratchet bombs isn't irrelevant. Also, sometimes you just need 4 life. As for the hammer, you're really going in the other direction as using horse, by making the deck even more mana-hungry. Not only is its ability more costly, but it also loses you lands every time, which is a much bigger deal than losing 1 life with a gain-4 on tap. The one mana CC difference doesn't really matter, because you don't often need/want to be jamming that combo piece on curve. I probably should have mentioned that I cut the keyrunes in my build. Without them the Post looks much less attractive. I've come to agree with some of your points on the Hammer, it's by far the worst token generator for this deck and I'm cutting it. The cons aren't worth the pros. Seeing as I'm primarily building an anti-aggro version, it's just down between Horse and Post, and against decks like RDW you usually do want to be slamming those down on curve unless you have a play like Pyromancer+removal, since the only other 4 drop is Purphoros which does nothing meaningful against Aggro. I think Horse is much better against RDW simply because it makes guys that have a point of power which are capable of killing a bunch of different dudes and it does it for free, where Post requires you to spend life on your chump blockers which is just turning a bad situation into a slightly less bad one, especially since most of their guys only have 2 power. The only thing I don't like about Horse is it's pretty awkward if you have to overload a Mizzium Mortars. I'm not too worried about it being a blocker since we don't have to attack to win, and if we are attacking it's only blocking 2 power at most. I think there's a remote possibility that Bubbling Cauldron might be a viable anti-aggro SB card, but between Altar's Reap and Tymaret that's probably getting greedy with sac outlets. It's a shame this deck never existed in the same meta as Pillar of Flame because between Voice and Phoenix it could really use it; the only card you have to truly deal with them is Anger of the Gods which I don't think is maindeckable.
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Oct 9, 2013 07:43
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Well, poo poo, I was pulling the cards for my decks, and realized they both call for two Cyclonic Rifts, and I only have two. Looks like I need to make another game store run.
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Oct 9, 2013 16:57
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