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ButWhatIf posted:The reasoning behind crate specifically is that dogs don't want to soil their den space, and a crate simulates that den thing all nicely for them. Unless the dog is from a puppy mill or pet store -those dogs have lost their inhibition against using the den as a toilet. Anecdotal, but my Golden was from a pet store as I didn't know any better and he crated beautifully. Not a single accident. I'd wager he's not the only one.
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Oct 6, 2013 18:36
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^ Is not usually an issue with puppies. But if the dog has been in such surroundings for even years.Serella posted:I would also say start regulating her water intake. We very strictly regulate the water my fiance's dog gets because she's a smallish dog (25 pounds) and so her bladder isn't big enough to hold it for as long as larger dogs can.
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Oct 6, 2013 19:24
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Hi, I am a "new" dog owner (This is my third dog, now), I rescued a 2 year old female Yorkshire Terrier from a family who found out that "omg dogs r hard work!!!!" She's been doing great so far, adjusted to crate training no problem, has had only a few accidents in the house, etc. and has regained her appetite. One thing that has been somewhat frustrating with her is she resists being walked with the leash, the opposite of pulling. For example, I'll bring her outside and at random times she will just stop dead in her tracks and stand still. Trying to move her in any direction does nothing, I have to physically pick her up to get her to move. I've tried walking harnesses, treats, calling her, etc. and nothing works. I've never seen this with any dog, it's very weird. Any suggestions on what I can do differently? It's very frustrating to walk her when she is resisting so much.
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Oct 6, 2013 22:50
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Riiseli posted:^ Is not usually an issue with puppies. But if the dog has been in such surroundings for even years. It's an 8 month old yorkie puppy. It can't hurt to to be careful with the watering schedule once they've ruled out a UTI, especially since she may or may not decide to go with crating.
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Oct 6, 2013 23:09
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In general, when do you stop putting your dog in the crate during the day if you're out? Penny is obviously not ready for that yet, but we've been letting her roam the house while we're home and she just kind of chills out in a random room and she just kind of chills out and naps in a corner. When does this translate over to "I think it's safe for her to be out while we're not there"?
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Oct 7, 2013 01:00
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Martytoof posted:In general, when do you stop putting your dog in the crate during the day if you're out? Penny is obviously not ready for that yet, but we've been letting her roam the house while we're home and she just kind of chills out in a random room and she just kind of chills out and naps in a corner. When does this translate over to "I think it's safe for her to be out while we're not there"? Number I've heard floated is when you've had at least 5 months accident-free. Might seem harsh, but leaving them roam of the house too soon is a great way to really quickly reverse all your house training progress.
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Oct 7, 2013 01:16
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Yeah, no worries, I'm not looking to give her run of the house too early, just didn't know what a good suggestions would be  Thanks!
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Oct 7, 2013 01:20
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Belldandy posted:Hi, Honestly avoid picking her up at all costs. This develops a behavior that she expects to be picked up. Find what her motivator is and use that to get her to move. Try to keep walks down to a minimum until she feels more comfortable. Try walking her around the house with the leash until she get's used to it. Maybe even just leash her in the house and let her drag it around. She will get comfortable with the leash eventually. You can also try a gentle leader leash but that's usually for a dog who pulls.
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Oct 7, 2013 14:00
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Do you know why she's hesitant to move? If she's scared you can try just chilling out outside and play with her and do some basic conditioning/desensitization exercises. If she's tired or just decides that she'd rather not, I'd probably just keep walking when she puts the brakes on. While she is walking nicely, chat with her, praise her, feed her treats, etc. If she stops, I'd probably say "whoops" and keep going. Once she starts walking on her own again, go back to cheery reinforcement.
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Oct 7, 2013 14:21
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Puppy update, with pictures. She's almost 12 weeks now.     How should I best deal with her biting? She especially does it when she is excited to see me. It stays playful, but she even goes for my fingers instead of the toy I'm holding for example. At the moment I'm shouting a short yelp when she is biting too hard and walk away, as recommended by the OP. I'm not seeing any change in her behavior though.
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Oct 9, 2013 19:53
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I've heard people actually cover their hands with butter and the dog then licks instead of chomps. You could do that for a bit maybe. Not sure how effective it is though.
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Oct 9, 2013 20:21
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Beef posted:How should I best deal with her biting? She especially does it when she is excited to see me. It stays playful, but she even goes for my fingers instead of the toy I'm holding for example. I do the butter thing mentioned by m.hache. It is, in my experience, very effective, but it should be used in conjunction with other training as well. In regards to the bolded statement, you need to go back and read the OP again. I actually do NOT recommend the high pitched yelp, however there are some other prolific posters here who do. My experience in a lot of puppy classes and working with a lot of puppies is that the yelp doesn't work very well. It's far more likely to excite them and make it worse. It's one of those areas of the OP I'd like to spend some time on when I get some time for a rewrite. The wording is probably poor, because I do think it's okay to say "OW!" but a lot of people try to emulate the sound of a puppy, and my opinion is that's a waste of time. The "OW!" is a natural reaction you (and more importantly, others) will have and you're building meaning into it by reacting to the mouthing consistently, but the idea that you can sound like a young puppy and use this as a deeper meaning for your dog is just silly and has no evidence to support the claim that I'm aware of. My recommendation is two fold: 1) Make sure your dog has plenty of acceptable chew targets. Puppy nylabones, edible chews, safe chew toys, stuffed kongs, frozen dishtowels (soak it, wrap some ice cubes with the soaked towel, stuff in ziploc bag and freeze), are all good things to have around for redirection. When your dog is feeling chompy, make sure you're stuffing this in their face in attempt to not let them practice using you as the chew toy. If they have a strong habit of chewing on your hands already, get a stick of butter, freeze it, then rub your hands with it before interacting with the dog. This will provoke a great deal of licking, which is definitely preferable to biting. This is how you minimize the dog practicing any mouthing, especially when they are teething. 2) When the dog mouths, set a threshold for what is not okay. As soon as the bite pressure crosses that threshold, react (say "Ow!"), stand up and exit calmly. If your dog constantly tries to follow and chase or keep biting on pants, lets, whatever, you need to keep the dog tethered to something strong and sturdy. You want to be consistent about you leaving, rather than putting the dog into a timeout in a crate. This is a quadrant training difference. We don't want something bad to happen to the dog (+P), we want something good to be taken away (-P). There is one caveat to #2 - your dog can only learn bite inhibition by practicing mouthing. Bite inhibition doesn't mean "don't bite" it's a qualifier to how hard. Most adult dogs have insanely good control of their mouths, and the reason bites rarely break the skin is because the dogs know exactly how hard they want to bite and it is a conscious decision on their part. They can only learn this via practice when they are young. I bring this up because sometimes people create a rule that the dog can never put their mouth on a person, ever, and I don't think that's appropriate, and it's certainly not conducive to this exercise. Remember that they won't get any feedback from their chew toys. They get some limited feedback from squeaker toys, and that might be a very interesting science experiment, but I don't think there's any conclusive evidence that it's sufficient for this purpose. If you keep struggling come back and provide as much detail as we can and we'll help you through it. Good luck!
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Oct 9, 2013 21:26
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yes I'm sure nothing could possibly go wrong/be stupid about liberally coating one's hands in butter at all times in case of Puppy Attack (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 9, 2013 21:43
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Most people I know use a yelp and time out (getting up and walking away) to great effect. If the yelp riles your dog up, just walk away and be inaccessible to let your dog calm down.
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Oct 9, 2013 21:43
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MrFurious posted:In regards to the bolded statement, you need to go back and read the OP again. Hey dude we could just replace you with a bot that responds to nearly every single post with this. Like I get that you're frustrated that people don't want to go memorize an OP that rivals Moby loving Dick, but nearly every response you make is either a link to your master's thesis of an OP or a recommendation to re-read it. If people aren't reading it, the fault doesn't lie with the people who don't want to read it. I'm pretty sure most people recommend a yelp rather than a "NO GOD YOU loving DOG OUCH STOP THAT" in fury-voice, in the same way that they recommend an "ah-ah," rather than a "NO SHITHEAD." It's not a magical word or noise that makes a dog Stop Doing a Thing, it's an alternative to screaming at your dog in rage. Otherwise known as a "no reward marker" if you prefer. And using the stupid mythical quadrant system yes it's P+ but who loving cares.
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Oct 9, 2013 21:58
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ButWhatIf posted:Hey dude we could just replace you with a bot that responds to nearly every single post with this. Like I get that you're frustrated that people don't want to go memorize an OP that rivals Moby loving Dick, but nearly every response you make is either a link to your master's thesis of an OP or a recommendation to re-read it. If people aren't reading it, the fault doesn't lie with the people who don't want to read it. That OP is pretty monstrous. Lots of information, but overload for most people. It doesn't take any time to just answer someone's question (or... let someone else answer! Because dog training isn't rocket science and I think everyone will give a decent answer to How to Stop Biting Puppy questions) instead of directing everyone back to the OP. Butter seems really impractical. I can't even think about how I could use it, because I wouldn't want to have buttery hands every time I am interacting with my puppy. Yelping (or "ow" or whatever) and removing myself is what I did with my GSD pups, which do not have a ton of bite inhibition as a breed. It worked pretty well. I play a game with Sigma where I hold my forearm out, and he bites it (a la ScH bite sleeve). When I scream or yelp or ow, he releases and gets all playful, but he always releases because he knows a loud noise = stop biting. Even though whenever I make a loud noise during that game, its always playful, he follows the rules. adventure in the sandbox fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Oct 9, 2013 |
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Oct 9, 2013 22:20
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ButWhatIf posted:Hey dude we could just replace you with a bot that responds to nearly every single post with this. Like I get that you're frustrated that people don't want to go memorize an OP that rivals Moby loving Dick, but nearly every response you make is either a link to your master's thesis of an OP or a recommendation to re-read it. If people aren't reading it, the fault doesn't lie with the people who don't want to read it. I do believe you are applying P+ with this post, I find it very aversive. Perhaps you could try smearing butter on your posts instead??
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Oct 9, 2013 22:34
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I've heard of the butter thing but honestly, it sounds like more of a hassle than it's worth. How often are you supposed to apply butter to your arms? Do you do this before or after the puppy gets nippy? Are you supposed to spend a whole day coated in butter in case they start biting?
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Oct 9, 2013 23:03
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Honest question here with the Butter. Doesn't it cause the dog to be more interested in putting its mouth/tongue on your hands because it's rewarding for them? Wouldn't it be simpler to teach the dog the difference between "Gentle/ok mouthing" verses "HOLY poo poo WHEN I PUT MY MOUTH ON MY OWNERS IT TASTES AWESOME!!"
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Oct 9, 2013 23:06
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Add me to the list of people who had success with the yelping method. When I initially called the shelter to ask about little puppy-Dexter's personality I was told "well... he likes to tangle you up in his leash and then bite you..." They really weren't kidding. Bite bite bite all the time. The yelp method worked super well and to this day he knows not to bite with pressure. We play the "my mouth is bigger than your mouth" game that dogs do but my "mouth" is my hand. He will mouth my hand often in this game but never bite. Yelp at your puppies, people. Edit: also, the OP is cool and all for people wanting to read a bunch but it is much more inviting if someone answers the question directly. Just like in school. You may have the textbook available, but sometimes going straight to the teacher and talking to them is better for you. I would be pretty upset if I went to the teacher to explain an issue I had and they just said "CONSULT THE TEXTBOOK" and walked away. cryingscarf fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Oct 9, 2013 |
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Oct 9, 2013 23:20
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Wheats posted:I've heard of the butter thing but honestly, it sounds like more of a hassle than it's worth. How often are you supposed to apply butter to your arms? Do you do this before or after the puppy gets nippy? Are you supposed to spend a whole day coated in butter in case they start biting? It's for use when you have a very mouthy dog who is biting inappropriately. The goal is to get the dog to stop practicing biting and practice something that is acceptable instead, which is licking in this case. This is why the butter is frozen. It's a thin layer on the skin, and I have never, ever seen a dog bite a hand because of the butter. Some dogs may not be interested in it (also rare), and continue to mouth or bite as a result, but I haven't ever seen them try to chomp the butter. The Big Whoop posted:Honest question here with the Butter. Doesn't it cause the dog to be more interested in putting its mouth/tongue on your hands because it's rewarding for them? Yes, and this is the first step in that direction. The primary goal is to get the dog to stop mouthing directly. For me, licking is okay, but for some people it's not - that's an individual owner decision. The butter is very likely to encourage licking, but that's the point - we're training an incompatible behavior. If he's licking, he can't be biting at the same time. If necessary you can then move from licking to no mouth interaction at all. quote:Wouldn't it be simpler to teach the dog the difference between "Gentle/ok mouthing" verses "HOLY poo poo WHEN I PUT MY MOUTH ON MY OWNERS IT TASTES AWESOME!!" cryingscarf posted:Edit: also, the OP is cool and all for people wanting to read a bunch but it is much more inviting if someone answers the question directly. Just like in school. You may have the textbook available, but sometimes going straight to the teacher and talking to them is better for you. I would be pretty upset if I went to the teacher to explain an issue I had and they just said "CONSULT THE TEXTBOOK" and walked away. You say this like there isn't a four paragraph post responding to the individual with the question with specific advice. MrFurious fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Oct 9, 2013 |
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Oct 9, 2013 23:31
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I am genuinely going to smear butter on my arms next time Peep gets mouthy. 10 bux says it ends in a bloodbath when all the dogs decide only they should be allowed to lick my arms and Pin and Peep decide to murder each other (and Frankie) over butter. Then, from that day forward, my arms will be guarded as a resource whether or not butter is present because as a dog, you can never be too careful and if there is not butter now it does not mean that there never *will* be butter and butter has been known to manifest when you least expect it, like when biting arms.
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Oct 10, 2013 00:28
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MrFurious posted:
Sorry but that doesn't make Crying Scarf's point less valid. In this case it's more like "This was covered in the lecture, you should have been paying closer attention." Superconsndar posted:I am genuinely going to smear butter on my arms next time Peep gets mouthy. 10 bux says it ends in a bloodbath when all the dogs decide only they should be allowed to lick my arms and Pin and Peep decide to murder each other (and Frankie) over butter. Then, from that day forward, my arms will be guarded as a resource whether or not butter is present because as a dog, you can never be too careful and if there is not butter now it does not mean that there never *will* be butter and butter has been known to manifest when you least expect it, like when biting arms.
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Oct 10, 2013 01:16
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When Tater was in Peak Bitey Phase I got a lot of mileage out of getting a pair of thick cotton oven mitts and playing with him using those. You can still feel how much pressure he's putting on a bite and react as though he hit skin when it's too much but at least it's not as painful, especially while he still has those damned milk teeth. Plus slapping/wrestling the poo poo out of a dog while wearing them is fun as hell and I still break them out every couple days. Honestly though Tater's daily dog park visits are what really brought his inhibition in line. Now he regularly chews me when we're playing and I frankly encourage it... It's like a soothing hand massage 
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Oct 10, 2013 01:26
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MrFurious posted:It's for use when you have a very mouthy dog who is biting inappropriately. The goal is to get the dog to stop practicing biting and practice something that is acceptable instead, which is licking in this case. This is why the butter is frozen. It's a thin layer on the skin, and I have never, ever seen a dog bite a hand because of the butter. Some dogs may not be interested in it (also rare), and continue to mouth or bite as a result, but I haven't ever seen them try to chomp the butter. How do you get the butter to stay frozen on your skin? I can't figure out how to continue that line of thought without it looking like I'm trolling or mocking even though I am genuinely confused here so I will leave it at that. I taught Otis not to bite with the "yelp, stop paying attention, resume attention after dog acknowledges you stopped and give them something they can bite instead" method. Now he is such a good precious angel princess baby dog that he actually bites/mouths fingers on cue as part of his job. Playing gentle tug-of-war with a hooked finger is a really good grounding technique 
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Oct 10, 2013 04:47
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I have never once suggested smearing butter on a client ever. I think they'd either fire me on the spot or just straight up stop taking me seriously. It's really expensive and seriously the gooniest thing I've ever heard short of recommending that you put cheeto dust on your arms. I literally cannot imagine an actual professional recommending this.
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Oct 10, 2013 07:00
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Thanks for the pointers McFurious. To be clear, I'm not emulating a dog yelp, just saying OW and walking away. So, if I understand correctly, it's ok for the puppy to do some soft and playful biting, with the aforementioned discouragement when she bites too hard. I'll remember the butter trick for when it gets out of hand. Chill out over the butter thing, sweet jezus. It is probably next to vinegar the most commonly used household product for all kinds of little tricks.
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Oct 10, 2013 11:35
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Butter method sounds hilarious. Yelping and withdrawing is not something I would do. I'm fine with mouthy playing, but when they get too hard, I usually growl, use my hand as a mouth and either remove them or press their flew into one of those needle-sharp canine. If you watch the way the other hounds handle bitey puppies, that's it: not a yelping retreat, but a knock-it-off correction. Firm but fair.
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Oct 10, 2013 13:10
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Beef posted:Thanks for the pointers McFurious. The real issue is that the butter method isn't really the most useful way to handle this- no one hates butter or is anti butter. We just think that you are more likely to see success with the "ow" and then walk away method, rather than smearing butter on yourself.
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Oct 10, 2013 13:59
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Really, most pro trainers wrap their arms in kittens to teach bite inhibition. But I haven't tried buttering the kittens first, maybe that'll work. I should go back and read the OP to see if that's included. But for actual content, when we adopted Asa, she was...not mouthy, but she wasn't not-mouthy. Just going ow, putting her in a timeout and working on redirecting to a proper alternative (aka toy/bone/etc). Didn't take long, but she was a little older.
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Oct 10, 2013 14:44
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wtftastic posted:We just think that you are more likely to see success with the "ow" and then walk away method, rather than smearing butter on yourself. I agree that the 'ow' and walk away method is often successful, however, you will occasionally run into a dog who is undeterred by it. Psyche was one such dog and our solution was to do shaping sessions where she was rewarded for not going after hands, no matter what we were doing (waving hands around, reaching behind her, etc). We did in conjunction with two other things: 1) we did encourage licking, but not with butter (sounds messy, inconvenient, and I'm not sure phasing it out would be all that effective). We simply put our hands flat on the floor such that they were less fun to bite and encouraged licking when she switched to that and 2) after she had gotten good at the shaping game, we reintroduced hand biting in the context of 'game time' where it was allowed only under specific circumstances. I know the original question was about a young puppy, so the solutions may differ depending on WHY your dog is mouthing. Psyche was a combination of over-excitement, communication (that was how she learned to let people know she had to pee), and stress (which is why we encouraged licking, it is stress relief to her). Here is a kikopup video demonstrating the shaping exercise. She does it with a pretty young puppy.
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Oct 10, 2013 14:47
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Beef posted:Thanks for the pointers McFurious. It is a good idea to teach some bite inhibition (that gentle biting is okay), yes, so that if she does mouth she'll do so with an appropriate pressure. I personally recommend not letting them see/use your hands and arms as toys, though, and would redirect her to a toy (in addition to the "ow!" and withdrawal of hands). I ONLY recommend yelping if the puppy isn't further aroused and excited by it, but with some puppies it works well to startle/interrupt them. But I do prefer the "ow!" as a sort of no reward marker, as you have been doing. I have heard of the butter idea before, but I have to agree it's a little impractical (and I personally don't want to encourage excessive licking, but to each their own). Edit: ^^^ As you can see from Kiri Koli's post some dogs require more tailored approaches. It can be tricky to find out which techniques work best for your dog, but typical puppy mouthing is fairly easy to deal with. Skizzles fucked around with this message at 14:52 on Oct 10, 2013 |
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Oct 10, 2013 14:47
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E: Accidentally hit quote instead of edit!
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Oct 10, 2013 14:49
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I refuse to smear myself in butter for training purposes. However, I have recently replaced body wash with butter in my daily hygiene routine. I find that it makes my skin super soft and delicious.
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Oct 10, 2013 14:59
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Kiri koli posted:I agree that the 'ow' and walk away method is often successful, however, you will occasionally run into a dog who is undeterred by it. Psyche was one such dog and our solution was to do shaping sessions where she was rewarded for not going after hands, no matter what we were doing (waving hands around, reaching behind her, etc). We did in conjunction with two other things: 1) we did encourage licking, but not with butter (sounds messy, inconvenient, and I'm not sure phasing it out would be all that effective). We simply put our hands flat on the floor such that they were less fun to bite and encouraged licking when she switched to that and 2) after she had gotten good at the shaping game, we reintroduced hand biting in the context of 'game time' where it was allowed only under specific circumstances. Also it can be useful to teach your dog that some level of pressure is okay, especially if they're just generally kind of mouthy. My dog (an australian cattle dog mix) has a very hard mouth and is generally not particularly mouthy, but when he takes treats he can be very rough. I had to teach him that light pressure only got him treats and that hard pressure didn't work. It was painful (having a dog gnaw on you isn't great fun), but worked well.
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Oct 10, 2013 15:12
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wtftastic posted:Also it can be useful to teach your dog that some level of pressure is okay, especially if they're just generally kind of mouthy. Yeah, that's why we reintroduced biting during play sessions because I wanted her to practice acceptable levels of pressure. It taught her both a softer mouth and when to stop (when playtime was over). She needed to stop cold turkey before we reintroduced it though, since she learned that biting was the best way to get attention from her former idiot owners.
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Oct 10, 2013 15:20
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I would like to profusely thank two people.
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Oct 12, 2013 12:31
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What is the consensus on puppies who have lived their first 8 weeks outside, in a kennel? Ian Dunbar’s Before You Get Your Puppy mentions we should stay away from them. Are we truly going to be working overtime trying to introduce him to our house?
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Oct 12, 2013 17:15
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My last 2 puppies came from working breeders who raised them outside in kennels until I got them (one at 10 weeks, one at....8 I think) and they were fine. As long as they received attention and socialization I can't imagine why it would make a difference.
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Oct 12, 2013 19:27
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Yup, so long as they get decent socialisation it's fine.
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Oct 12, 2013 20:26
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