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I was turning right on red and just peeled out because I didn't expect all the power at once :\
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Oct 13, 2013 01:11
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Since I've had my Leaf I've been averaging over 50 miles a day and I NEED the defroster/wipers/headlights on almost all the time. I'm currently plugging in to 120 and I can only even do that while at home  I was talking with an electrician friend and we've decided that there's about an hour to an hour-and-a-half of work involved in installing my 240v EVSE but so far my lowest quote is "between $500 and $1500". Awesome. I'm really, REALLY thinking about buying that friend a plane ticket this weekend to just come do it.
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Oct 16, 2013 04:37
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Advent Horizon posted:Since I've had my Leaf I've been averaging over 50 miles a day and I NEED the defroster/wipers/headlights on almost all the time. I'm currently plugging in to 120 and I can only even do that while at home The $500 is probably not terribly out of line. Figure that a licensed contractor will have to get permits, and those can be $50+ depending on your locality. Then you need a new 240v breaker, and since it's in the garage, many codes require that it be GFCI - that's $75-100. Copper wire, probably 10 guage, at least $0.25 per foot. To do it right, this all needs to be in conduit, so that's more cost, plus the cost of the actual outlet, call it $20 depending on what type you need (that's just a basic dryer type). So you've got somewhere around $200 in supplies and permit + trip + labor. Yea, $500 probably isn't unreasonable, although certainly if you know a licensed electrician that can do it for beer + parts, that's hard to beat.
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Oct 16, 2013 06:58
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This is an odd thing to recommend, but for something like that I'd sign up for Angie's List. I found an electrician with good reviews who also had a loving coupon that saved me about $130 off the total bill. I had no idea there were coupons on there. YMMV
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Oct 16, 2013 16:40
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I'm not an electrician, but I'm going to assume there's no way to duplex 110v into 220v safely? You can't draw two separate 110v streams into a device that smooths out the current and merges them into clean 220v in a way that won't melt something somewhere in the home? Or is it a matter of limited amps at that point - volts go up, amps go down, making such power useless?
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Oct 16, 2013 17:00
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I was having a conversation about EVs and my friend brought up accident safety and electrocution. I imagine electricity from the battery is cut in the event of an accident, but there are probably still live high voltage wires running through the car somewhere. How do firefighters, for example, deal with extricating people differently from a gasoline car, and how is that taken into consideration in the design?IOwnCalculus posted:I'd take a Tesla in a heartbeat, but no amount of handwaving can come up with the actual cashflow needed for me to make that payment. I hope to lord FSM that Tesla makes a lower priced model in the next decade ($15-30K). I would love for that to be my first car purchase. Pipe dream. Michael Scott fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Oct 16, 2013 |
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Oct 16, 2013 17:20
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Michael Scott posted:I was having a conversation about EVs and my friend brought up accident safety and electrocution. I imagine electricity from the battery is cut in the event of an accident, but there are probably still live high voltage wires running through the car somewhere. How do firefighters, for example, deal with extricating people differently from a gasoline car, and how is that taken into consideration in the design? There are clearly marked points on the body where you can cut wires connected to the battery system.
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Oct 16, 2013 17:28
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Mortanis posted:I'm not an electrician, but I'm going to assume there's no way to duplex 110v into 220v safely? You can't draw two separate 110v streams into a device that smooths out the current and merges them into clean 220v in a way that won't melt something somewhere in the home? Or is it a matter of limited amps at that point - volts go up, amps go down, making such power useless? This is actually possible, though probably a massive code violation. Residential service is almost universally split-phase. You get 110V or 120V when you go from either hot phase to neutral, and you get 220/240 when you go from one hot phase to the other. There are devices out there that will plug into two 110V outlets and give you a 240V receptacle; the trick is finding two 110V outlets that aren't on the same phase. It's a terrible idea because then you also need to make sure you aren't overloading two separate breakers, and not just one. Michael Scott posted:I hope to lord FSM that Tesla makes a lower priced model in the next decade ($15-30K). I would love for that to be my first car purchase. Pipe dream. Supposedly they are but it's at least 3 years away.
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Oct 16, 2013 17:33
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Michael Scott posted:I was having a conversation about EVs and my friend brought up accident safety and electrocution. I imagine electricity from the battery is cut in the event of an accident, but there are probably still live high voltage wires running through the car somewhere. How do firefighters, for example, deal with extricating people differently from a gasoline car, and how is that taken into consideration in the design? I know on the Volt they run the high voltage lines through areas that are rarely used for extraction, and every component of the high voltage system is sheathed in bright orange with highly visible stickers placed next to every exposed component. There's also a manual battery disconnect under the center console that physically isolates the battery from the rest of the system.
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Oct 16, 2013 17:34
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IOwnCalculus posted:Supposedly they are but it's at least 3 years away. Just imagine if they were able to create a small, reliable highway speed vehicle with a sizable range that was cheaper than a crappy gasoline car. It could completely change the industry even faster.
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Oct 16, 2013 17:42
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Michael Scott posted:Just imagine if they were able to create a small, reliable highway speed vehicle with a sizable range that was cheaper than a crappy gasoline car. It could completely change the industry even faster. I read once that if Tesla's replaced half of new gasoline cars, the batteries would use up the entire world's production of lithium. I don't remember where I read this and couldn't find it again, so here's a back-of-the-envelope verification: fedex says .3 grams of lithium per amp-hour. One amp hour probably typically means 3.7 watt-hours, so 0.08g of lithium per watt-hour. Tesla battery is 60,000 watt-hours. 60,000 * 0.08 = 4.8kg of lithium. World production of lithium is ~600,000,000kg per year. 600,000,000(kg/year) / 4.8(kg/battery) = 125,000,000 batteries/year. Nevermind. Grow Tesla, grow! edit: on second thought, there were 84,000,000 cars produced in 2012. That is not much less than 125 million... Mathhole fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Oct 16, 2013 |
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Oct 16, 2013 19:06
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I assume that if we started producing that many lithium batteries a couple of things would happen. Mining of lithium would increase of course, but also I assume that recycling of lithium batteries would get more widespread and efficient (if it isn't already). I remember reading that due to lead acid batteries being so ubiquitous in cars there is an incredibly widespread and efficient recycling system in place to the point that nearly 100% of the lead from those batteries gets recycled. Hopefully the same thing would occur with lithium.
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Oct 16, 2013 19:17
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125 million is 50% greater than that! I saw a blog entry today where Nissan entered a Leaf in a competition with a 48kWh battery. Man, I'd love that if it didn't weight too much more... I think I'm going to stop by Home Depot today and get a plug to put on my LCS-25 so I can at least use it on the welding circuit in my shop until the EVSE circuit is wired into the garage. My wife complained that we'll have to 'go next door to use the car' but I'd rather start with the darn thing actually charged!
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Oct 16, 2013 19:19
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ijustam posted:I'm interested in a Leaf but the 70 mile range terrifies me. I'd feel so restricted. My commute is 10 miles one way so that isn't a problem, but going to the other side of the city (Indianapolis) would basically be impossible. For longer trips do you just rent a car and call it a day or is the Leaf really designed to be a second car? For longer trips I use one of my other cars. Who in AI has less then 4 cars? Are you trolling?
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Oct 16, 2013 19:45
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This meets code, right?  
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Oct 17, 2013 01:51
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I was looking for some articles on the Caddy plug-in hybrid and... http://www.gizmag.com/cadillac-elr-plug-in-hybrid-price/29389/ Priced from $76,000.
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Oct 17, 2013 02:38
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Such bullshit, goddamn. I guess it's the shareholder profits that necessitate these ridiculous prices from large manufacturers (the Leaf is a step in the right direction). You'd think that a company with massive capital like this could afford to price a car at a more reasonable level and that would really pay off for them. They're too loving nearsighted and short term profit oriented to understand that. They could have totally revolutionized what the Caddy name is about to a younger up-and-coming generation, but nope. How could GM not see this, or am I just totally wrong? There's no way the profit margin isn't huge starting at almost $80,000 per vehicle. Michael Scott fucked around with this message at 02:51 on Oct 17, 2013 |
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Oct 17, 2013 02:47
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From my understanding, they are trying to compete with Tesla. However, I don't think they learned their lesson from the XLR.
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Oct 17, 2013 02:52
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Volvo (by way of Imperial College London) had been thinking outside the box. Or with the box itself, actually. They've shown off a prototype S80 where the trunk lid itself is a battery, and they're planning to make battery versions of the entire body of the car: http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1087758_volvo-shows-body-panels-that-could-replace-batteries-in-electric-cars Pretty nifty stuff, but probably stupidly expensive after a fender bender.
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Oct 18, 2013 08:49
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KozmoNaut posted:Volvo (by way of Imperial College London) had been thinking outside the box. Or with the box itself, actually. They've shown off a prototype S80 where the trunk lid itself is a battery, and they're planning to make battery versions of the entire body of the car: What happens if you get into an accident while those capacitors are storing energy and they become compromised? It's gotta go somewhere.
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Oct 18, 2013 14:58
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The Midniter posted:What happens if you get into an accident while those capacitors are storing energy and they become compromised? It's gotta go somewhere. They're carbon-based cells, so not nearly as volatile as lithium-based cells. My guess is that some amount of energy will be released, but mostly the battery will just be rendered inoperable by the damage.
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Oct 18, 2013 15:03
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Maybe it'll teach that uninsured motorist who hit you a good lesson.
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Oct 18, 2013 15:47
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Michael Scott posted:Such bullshit, goddamn. I guess it's the shareholder profits that necessitate these ridiculous prices from large manufacturers (the Leaf is a step in the right direction). You'd think that a company with massive capital like this could afford to price a car at a more reasonable level and that would really pay off for them. They're too loving nearsighted and short term profit oriented to understand that. They already tried underpricing the Volt and it hasn't worked out well for them. What, exactly, is the payoff scenario here? I don't understand what the potential long-term benefit would be to putting out another loss-leader luxury electric car. Also, eating losses for a decade isn't really something GM could do right now given their current financial situation even if their CEO wasn't an idiot. Unlike startups where it doesn't really matter if they have yet to turn a real profit so long as the PR machine keeps churning up new investment.
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Oct 18, 2013 17:37
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KozmoNaut posted:Volvo (by way of Imperial College London) had been thinking outside the box. Or with the box itself, actually. They've shown off a prototype S80 where the trunk lid itself is a battery, and they're planning to make battery versions of the entire body of the car: That also sounds like it would mess with handling by elevating the center of gravity.
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Oct 18, 2013 17:39
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Cream_Filling posted:That also sounds like it would mess with handling by elevating the center of gravity. It's a Volvo.
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Oct 18, 2013 18:08
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Michael Scott posted:I was having a conversation about EVs and my friend brought up accident safety and electrocution. I imagine electricity from the battery is cut in the event of an accident, but there are probably still live high voltage wires running through the car somewhere. How do firefighters, for example, deal with extricating people differently from a gasoline car, and how is that taken into consideration in the design? Well, first off, they get training. Manufacturers even send people out to train firefighters on their specific vehicles. But regs also stipulate that dangerous wiring be made incredibly obvious. The only HV battery systems i've worked on have been the ones i've owned (sadly, only a small % of the cars in production) but for example on my Insight the HV power feeds are giant orange wires under orange plactic guards with warning stickers stuck everywhere. Beyond that, a bare minimum of electrical knowledge will get you pretty darn far and i hope that firefighter training includes that. I've taken apart and put back together Insight and Prius battery packs and the only thing you really need to keep yourself alive even INSIDE the pack is enough knowledge to be able to visually follow the main circuit (which is hard on a PCB but pretty easy with bus bars and giant gauge wire). But, i think talk here about packs being physically compromised turns out to not be too dangerous in most cases. A lot of packs have relays that split the pack into smaller sections with lower voltage, and since pretty much all HV packs get their high voltage by hooking every cell up in series, physically breaking the connection of one cell also does the same thing. I think in most cases mushing up or poking holes in the pack would make it LESS electrically dangerous. Mathhole posted:I read once that if Tesla's replaced half of new gasoline cars, the batteries would use up the entire world's production of lithium. I consider it extremely likely that battery construction will change faster than market saturation to accomodate larger production numbers. Vigo327 fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Oct 18, 2013 |
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Oct 18, 2013 18:13
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Vigo327 posted:I consider it extremely likely that battery construction will change faster than market saturation to accomodate larger production numbers. Yeah. I'm especially excited about graphene batteries/capacitors. That could make them cheaper, energy-denser, and lighter. But so would every one of these miracle battery technologies.
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Oct 18, 2013 21:09
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Cream_Filling posted:They already tried underpricing the Volt and it hasn't worked out well for them. What, exactly, is the payoff scenario here? I don't understand what the potential long-term benefit would be to putting out another loss-leader luxury electric car. I didn't mean a luxury vehicle, I'm talking like Civic and Corolla prices. An electric A to B car, perhaps for a younger audience, with a relatively long range. It could have a revolutionary design or lack some of the amenities that current vehicles have but if it could be priced low enough (like under $15,000) it might be a huge hit. It could negate the negatives of a loss leader and invigorate the EV industry. In metro areas EVs are the 2nd best way to get around (2nd to gas cars), but are easily more economical. There is also a large market of younger people with full time jobs that need a commute car like that. The technology just needs to come down in price and away from an experimental paradigm, and an EV like I'm describing could outsell a gas competitor. Michael Scott fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Oct 18, 2013 |
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Oct 18, 2013 21:19
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Michael Scott posted:I didn't mean a luxury vehicle, I'm talking like Civic and Corolla prices. An electric A to B car, perhaps for a younger audience, with a relatively long range. It could have a revolutionary design or lack some of the amenities that current vehicles have but if it could be priced low enough (like under $15,000) it might be a huge hit. It could negate the negatives of a loss leader and invigorate the EV industry. I don't really understand how your idea differs from what they are marketing the Leaf or other similar small EV's for? The price is still kinda high on them but I thought the biggest issue with that is that batteries are still very expensive. Aren't they experimenting in europe with buying an EV car for super cheap but leasing the batteries for a few hundred bucks a month in lieu of a car payment?
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Oct 18, 2013 21:28
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Michael Scott posted:I didn't mean a luxury vehicle, I'm talking like Civic and Corolla prices. An electric A to B car, perhaps for a younger audience, with a relatively long range. It could have a revolutionary design or lack some of the amenities that current vehicles have but if it could be priced low enough (like under $15,000) it might be a huge hit. It could negate the negatives of a loss leader and invigorate the EV industry. Manufacturers are already hard pressed to build and sell a conventional gas car at that price point, and make a profit, due to higher levels of expected standard trim/options, and increasing safety, economy, and emissions regulations. What you're describing is currently impossible, at a low price point, so the OEs then up-content the vehicles so that people are a bit more amenable to the high price. As battery prices and/or efficiencies go down/up, the vehicle prices will come down, but it's going to be some time. I do think that the tipping point for continued growth of the EV market has been reached, though. They're not going away, this time.
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Oct 18, 2013 21:38
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Regarding HV vehicles and special training; a swedish car magazine buy a couple of new cars every year (as private customers, to avoid preferential treatment), drive them for about 100k miles in a year and write articles in every issue during the year where they detail problems they've had, cost of ownership and stuff. Well, they had a fender bender in the Opel Ampera (european version of the Volt), which is one of the cars they have right now, and the damage was some scratches and some dents on the left rear door, quarter panel and fender. They took it to the shop and got it inspected, and then left it at the shop to get it fixed. The next day the shop calls and asks them to come get the car, since *everyone* who works on the Ampera has to have special training, no matter how small the job, and no one at their body shop had been yet.
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Oct 18, 2013 21:41
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MrYenko posted:As battery prices and/or efficiencies go down/up, the vehicle prices will come down, but it's going to be some time. I do think that the tipping point for continued growth of the EV market has been reached, though. They're not going away, this time. I sure hope so. Here in Juneau it seems like we've reached the tipping point and we don't even have a dealer. Considering what it takes to get a Leaf here, that's impressive. I've had quite a few people already tell me they saw me at such-and-such a place when in reality it was one of the other black Leafs. I think it's already surprising people once they know what it is how many they see. As far as the price, our Leaf is a grand total of 6 monthly payments more than our second choice - a Subaru Impreza. That car wasn't a stripper, either, but it's a fair price comparison since hardly anybody actually buys absolutely base-model cars. You can hem and haw about the price tag being a bit higher but your average idiot buyer really shops based on monthly payment.
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Oct 19, 2013 00:44
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Michael Scott posted:I didn't mean a luxury vehicle, I'm talking like Civic and Corolla prices. An electric A to B car, perhaps for a younger audience, with a relatively long range. It could have a revolutionary design or lack some of the amenities that current vehicles have but if it could be priced low enough (like under $15,000) it might be a huge hit. It could negate the negatives of a loss leader and invigorate the EV industry. GM (ok not actually GM, but the company was founded by ex-GM employees) already sells a car like that:  The Neighborhood Electric Vehicle market of cheap EVs is in the price range you just specified. It attracts an audience consisting almost entirely of retirees and the occasional groundskeeper. They also sell another car like that:  It's their attempt at an EV for the average American's needs. Supposedly they're losing as much as $50,000 on every Volt they sell. Obviously this is mostly due to low volumes, but by all indications even in best case scenarios the Volt will not turn a profit for a very long time due to being so expensive to make. And the volt isn't exactly a luxury car, either - there's not much to cut on it while still being legal or sellable. If you want a car that can actually drive on the highway and get a reasonable range, you've gotta have to pay for it. $15,000 is about the price of just the batteries even on something small with modest range like the Nissan Leaf. And those batteries are already pretty mature technology, relatively speaking. Not to mention the fact that I think you're seriously overestimating the importance of the young people living in a "metro" area without public transportation market. Honda Civics are not exactly profitable cars. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Oct 19, 2013 |
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Oct 19, 2013 02:32
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Cream_Filling posted:GM (ok not actually GM, but the company was founded by ex-GM employees) already sells a car like that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Electric_Motorcars It is entirely a luxury item, they can only go 25mph and not very far. Slightly better technology than a golf cart. Most young people would probably choose to bike vs using one of these. You are completely correct that the batteries are simply to expensive to get into that low of a price segment, but that is simply the path that technology takes. I just started leasing a Leaf SL w/ Premium trim. Local dealership had exactly what I was looking for, which was pretty nice. Just in time for some good ND winter testing.
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Oct 19, 2013 03:00
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Phuzun posted:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Electric_Motorcars Neighborhood Electric Vehicles are actually an interesting (and somehow very 90s feeling) concept, though, and weren't entirely intended to be a luxury. You are correct that they're basically a bicycle for invalids and lazy people. But the thing is that bicycles are a pretty decent way to get around a dense city, and this is a way to do so at speeds up to 45 mph with a roof over your head when it rains and that's accessible to people who don't have the physical ability to keep up with traffic. They were sort of created as part of these idealistic/futurist concepts that started emerging when people realized just how bad American urban planning had become, with the thought that you would build more walkable, less sprawly communities around these things, and that instead of driving your gas car from your suburb to the grocery store, you'd drive your NEV (or a communally held NEV) instead since gas cars are pretty bad for short trips in terms of gas, emissions, and wear on the car. They're also the only EVs that you could reasonably sell for less than the price of a cheap gas car. Especially back then, with worse battery tech, they knew EVs couldn't be a general-purpose car for most people, so they tried to keep the price low so people might buy them in addition to regular cars. And from what I've heard, they actually do work pretty well for retirement communities and similar planned communities.
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Oct 19, 2013 03:39
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Does anyone have an originating source for the "GM is losing $50k on every Volt" statement? I've searched and cannot find a factual source for the statement -- it gets thrown around a lot in the media and I've seen where the media quotes itself. Would be interested to know where it comes from. Full disclosure: I'm a Volt owner. I enjoy mine and think it's a fine $35k car (pre-tax incentive, at current MSRP) and has an appropriate amount of features and quality for that price point. I bought mine because the technology interests me, it fits my lifestyle, and I got a hell of a deal. In my opinion, the problems the Volt has is that it does not have the brand equity its price point demands, it's not roomy enough to market against the upper end of the midsize car market that people expect for $35k, and nobody understands how the technology works. GM is going to have the same problems with the Cadillac ELR - it's a fabulous car, but it's the wrong vehicle at the wrong price point. At $75k, people want a fully equipped E-series or 5-series sedan not a two door coupe that can seat 3 in a pinch. The limited market for a small luxury 2-door is around $50k. If GM really wanted to go after Tesla at $75k, they'd need to marry the Voltec technology to the ATS/CTS platform.
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Oct 19, 2013 06:41
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Cream_Filling posted:Neighborhood Electric Vehicles ... words... They were sort of created as part of these idealistic/futurist concepts that started emerging when people realized just how bad American urban planning had become, Call me crazy but i think they were created to cash in government dollars. If ever there were a case for government tax subsidies propping up a product that would have no chance in hell otherwise, it's NEVs. It's like the government said "If you sell a glorified golf cart for $7500 i will give you ANOTHER $7500 EVERY TIME". Poof, NEVs are a thing.
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Oct 19, 2013 07:03
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Goober Peas posted:Does anyone have an originating source for the "GM is losing $50k on every Volt" statement? I've searched and cannot find a factual source for the statement -- it gets thrown around a lot in the media and I've seen where the media quotes itself. Would be interested to know where it comes from. Most likely it's primarily an accounting thing. That is, the Volt project itself is based on many years of R&D, and probably just the development phase alone wasn't cheap. Given the high material costs of a Volt as well, even just batteries alone, GM doesn't make much money off of each one they sell, so unless they're selling a whole lot of them (which they're not) it will take forever to make back the money they spent developing the Volt. Especially because from previous indications, the current GM CEO is an idiot and targeted insanely unrealistic sales goals during the planning and rollout phases, which probably made things worse. Vigo327 posted:Call me crazy but i think they were created to cash in government dollars. If ever there were a case for government tax subsidies propping up a product that would have no chance in hell otherwise, it's NEVs. It's like the government said "If you sell a glorified golf cart for $7500 i will give you ANOTHER $7500 EVERY TIME". Poof, NEVs are a thing. Except NEVs aka "low-speed vehicles" have been around since the late 90s and the tax credits they got in 2008 are stratified only to NEVs and aren't that high - they're limited to 10% of total vehicle value max.
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Oct 19, 2013 14:10
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Vigo327 posted:Call me crazy but i think they were created to cash in government dollars. If ever there were a case for government tax subsidies propping up a product that would have no chance in hell otherwise, it's NEVs. It's like the government said "If you sell a glorified golf cart for $7500 i will give you ANOTHER $7500 EVERY TIME". Poof, NEVs are a thing.
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Oct 19, 2013 14:27
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Goober Peas posted:Does anyone have an originating source for the "GM is losing $50k on every Volt" statement? I've searched and cannot find a factual source for the statement -- it gets thrown around a lot in the media and I've seen where the media quotes itself. Would be interested to know where it comes from. Exactly. The Volt is just as much an enthusiast car as a GTO or ZL1 Camaro. People who don't understand the tech aren't going to get the most out of the vehicle, and are going to have a hard time justifying it against a full electric, or a conventional economy car. Much like you, though, I paid [b]way/[b] less than $30k for mine, I no longer burn gasoline for my daily commute, and it's about as much fun as an economy car can be.
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Oct 19, 2013 16:39
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