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Lack of air control in a platformer is practically the definition of bad controls. Some games make up for it with level design and enemy placement (La Mulana comes to mind) but that's a separate issue.
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Oct 21, 2013 09:44
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I don't think a lack of air control is an immediate brand of BAD PLATFORMER, but it is something that requires solid level design decisions built around that lack of air control. Castlevania is a game that does that kind of design very well, with Castlevania III iterating on it to be even better. Castlevania II is actually a bit of a step back in level design, but it's not really comparable.
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Oct 21, 2013 09:50
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You can beat Castlevania 1 without getting hit if you're good enough. That's pretty much the baseline of what makes a good platformer to me, no matter how hard it actually is to a beginner. It's still one of the worst Castlevania games (better than 2 at least), but it has a cool atmosphere, good music and it controls nicely. I'm not sure what your definition of "holding up" entails, but I also didn't play it until the 2000s and, I still think it's a good game that holds up better than the other 90% of the NES catalogue.
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Oct 21, 2013 09:53
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Comparing it to Ghosts 'n' Goblins shows how much better Castlevania holds up. First of all, Ghosts 'n' Goblins was ported to the NES using an engine that only runs at 20 fps. nearly every other game on the platform, Castlevania included, run at 60 fps, so the controls are more responsive and the movement is more fluid. Ghosts 'n' Goblins also requires you to beat the game twice to get the good ending, as well as defeating the final boss with the shield weapon. Enemies respawn when you scroll the screen in Ghosts 'n' Goblins, which is a problem Ninja Gaiden has as well. The controls in Castlevania may be very limiting when you're used to full air control or quicker attacks, but it's fair and consistent. You can get through the room with the axe knights and the medusa heads without taking damage or using cheap tricks.
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Oct 21, 2013 11:13
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At this point, I am of the Does it really matter opinion. The days of old school Castlevania are gone. Pretty much all of them I can think of in recent memory at least give you some form of air control. Most of them now don't even have bottomless pits anymore and from what I can tell, the franchise is stuck in the same pit that Mega Man is with the exception of Lords of Shadow. The saddest thing is that if Lords of Shadow 2 bombs, then Castlevania might be in the same pit that MegaMan is finding himself in.
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Oct 21, 2013 11:23
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I'm looking forward to LoS 2, and I think it'll be a good game, but I'm 100% certain it'll bomb horribly. But that has way more to do with the way modern Konami and Capcom function as companies than the modern potential of those franchises. They're only stuck in a pit because their developers have no idea what to do with them, not because people don't want to play those games.
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Oct 21, 2013 11:33
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Lords of Shadow just felt like a really generic gothic fantasy, and really doesn't fit into the Castlevania series. Even Symphony of the Night, which completely changed the style of the gameplay, was undoubtedly a Castlevania game.
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Oct 21, 2013 11:52
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Hakkesshu posted:I'm looking forward to LoS 2, and I think it'll be a good game, but I'm 100% certain it'll bomb horribly. But that has way more to do with the way modern Konami and Capcom function as companies than the modern potential of those franchises. They're only stuck in a pit because their developers have no idea what to do with them, not because people don't want to play those games. The problem that I suspect that many people have with both franchises is that after a while, giving us the same poo poo over and over won't cut it. I stopped playing all the portable Castlevanias after a while because they all felt samey to me. I think Konami took a gamble with Lords of Shadow and it paid off. But honestly I can't even think of a direction to take those franchises. Anything I can think of would be quite different from the CVs of the past, but at the same time, there are so many of each franchise to the point where if I want to play that style of game, then I have a lot to choose from. That loving Sned posted:Lords of Shadow just felt like a really generic gothic fantasy, and really doesn't fit into the Castlevania series. Even Symphony of the Night, which completely changed the style of the gameplay, was undoubtedly a Castlevania game. Its really no more generic than Lament of Innocence. That was an extremely bland Castlevania game.
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Oct 21, 2013 11:53
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Lords of Shadow at least has a cool European aesthetic to it that I rarely see done well on videogames, plus it's a pretty decent GoW clone. It might not be the best boxart blurb, but I had fun with it. 11/10
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Oct 21, 2013 14:58
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I unironically love that the "you got an item" jingle in Lords of Shadow is a choir singing, if I recall correctly, "Jesus is Lord."
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Oct 21, 2013 15:03
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Honest Thief posted:Lords of Shadow at least has a cool European aesthetic to it that I rarely see done well on videogames, plus it's a pretty decent GoW clone. Calling Lords of Shadow generic I feel is a pretty huge disservice to that game's art design. For one, it has the coolest looking gothic cathedrals I've ever seen in a video game, and its bestiary of obscure folkloric creatures is pretty awesome and creative, too. That game has a consistency to its graphic design that's not immediately apparent, but is surprisingly detailed and well-thought out if you look closer. I absolutely loved the whole farm area - it reminded me a lot of something like The Witcher. It doesn't always feel like Castlevania, but I give that game way more credit than pretty much every other mediocre action-adventure dreck like, say, Dante's Inferno. You could tell that the people who made it actually gave a gently caress, which is more than you can say about Konami in general these days. Hakkesshu fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Oct 21, 2013 |
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Oct 21, 2013 16:53
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That actually makes me think. What would you (You in the general sense) do for Castlevania these days?
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Oct 21, 2013 21:27
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Just make 1000 games where you play as Shanoa, in every possible genre. Shanoa Metroidvania. Shanoa fighting game. Shanoa FPS. Shanoa RTS. Shanoa Dating Sim.
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Oct 21, 2013 21:31
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Anatharon posted:That actually makes me think. What would you (You in the general sense) do for Castlevania these days? I honestly can't say, but I do think that making Lords of Shadow was a step in the right direction. I mean Castlevania fans may not have liked the game because it wasn't like all the other Castlevanias, but at the very least, they are trying something new. This article talks a bit about it. http://www.edge-online.com/news/castlevania-lords-of-shadow-2-mercury-steam-castlevania-wasnt-going-anywhere/
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Oct 21, 2013 21:40
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Anatharon posted:That actually makes me think. What would you (You in the general sense) do for Castlevania these days? Devil May Cry 1, but with Alucard instead of Dante. I can see what you're getting at, since it would pretty much have to be 3D to be considered a high-profile game, like it was back on the NES/SNES. Another game in the style of Castlevania Rebirth would be great too, but it would need to feel more like a step forward in the franchise rather than just a repeat of the old gameplay and level design. Rondo and IV added tons of new gameplay elements, and still felt like true Castlevania games, but they could even just use both the games for inspiration and create a 16-bit mashup. I think after the six portable metroidvanias, they've kind of tapped that well dry, especially since they got the formula so right the first time in Symphony of the Night. Most of them felt like they were just trying to repeat the success of that game, but some of them like Aria and Order managed to be very good games in their own regards.
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Oct 21, 2013 21:44
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Anatharon posted:That actually makes me think. What would you (You in the general sense) do for Castlevania these days? Give the next one to either From Software or Platinum. If they're going the spectacle fighter route, they need to go whole hog. If they're going with the slow, plodding nature of Classicvania then not-Demons Souls with Dracula would be pretty awesome. Or try IGA again. It's not like he's busy these days. I do really like the Lords of Shadow games, though.
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Oct 21, 2013 21:47
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blackguy32 posted:At this point, I am of the Does it really matter opinion. The days of old school Castlevania are gone. Pretty much all of them I can think of in recent memory at least give you some form of air control. Most of them now don't even have bottomless pits anymore and from what I can tell, the franchise is stuck in the same pit that Mega Man is with the exception of Lords of Shadow. If LoS 2 doesn't bomb then we're pretty much guaranteed nothing but generic GoW clones forever so I'm hoping it bombs pretty hard. I have a bit of hope that after it bombs, someone might realize that there's still a demand for decent metroidvanias and maybe we'll get a couple more of those. But if that doesn't happen and the franchise dies, that's a hell of a lot better than having some generic game come out every 2 years with "Castlevania" slapped onto the cover. Or god forbid, having an abomination as bad as Metroid: Other M come out and poo poo all over the entire franchise.
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Oct 21, 2013 21:50
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Adam Bowen posted:If LoS 2 doesn't bomb then we're pretty much guaranteed nothing but generic GoW clones forever so I'm hoping it bombs pretty hard. I have a bit of hope that after it bombs, someone might realize that there's still a demand for decent metroidvanias and maybe we'll get a couple more of those. But if that doesn't happen and the franchise dies, that's a hell of a lot better than having some generic game come out every 2 years with "Castlevania" slapped onto the cover. Or god forbid, having an abomination as bad as Metroid: Other M come out and poo poo all over the entire franchise. Thats a pretty terrible thing to hope for, especially since people's jobs are involved. Because much like Megaman, no one is going to realize that there is a demand for it. Order of Ecclesia was a decent Metroidvania but people simply weren't buying them. Also, I think its crazy to think that one game can affect an entire franchise. Other M didn't make Super Metroid magically suck. blackguy32 fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Oct 21, 2013 |
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Oct 21, 2013 22:03
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I just want that 1999 Castlevania.
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Oct 21, 2013 22:39
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blackguy32 posted:Thats a pretty terrible thing to hope for, especially since people's jobs are involved. Because much like Megaman, no one is going to realize that there is a demand for it. Order of Ecclesia was a decent Metroidvania but people simply weren't buying them. It's true that Super Metroid will always be awesome, but if more Metroid games come out and they're all terrible poo poo then eventually the franchise itself loses value as fans become wary of it. It's a lot harder to convince a publisher to fund a game in a non-AAA franchise if even the hardcore fans of the franchise lose faith in it. I'm sure someone out there has a great idea for a 3D Castlevania, but it's not MercurySteam and the more mediocre games they put out, the less likely it is that a really good 3D Castlevania will ever exist.
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Oct 21, 2013 22:43
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Adam Bowen posted:It's true that Super Metroid will always be awesome, but if more Metroid games come out and they're all terrible poo poo then eventually the franchise itself loses value as fans become wary of it. It's a lot harder to convince a publisher to fund a game in a non-AAA franchise if even the hardcore fans of the franchise lose faith in it. I'm sure someone out there has a great idea for a 3D Castlevania, but it's not MercurySteam and the more mediocre games they put out, the less likely it is that a really good 3D Castlevania will ever exist. You know MercurySteam has said multiple times that they're out after LoS2, right? Worrying about what they'll do in the future is kind of pointless, as unless they pull a Kojima what they do in the future is not Castlevania.
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Oct 21, 2013 22:57
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Adam Bowen posted:It's true that Super Metroid will always be awesome, but if more Metroid games come out and they're all terrible poo poo then eventually the franchise itself loses value as fans become wary of it. It's a lot harder to convince a publisher to fund a game in a non-AAA franchise if even the hardcore fans of the franchise lose faith in it. I'm sure someone out there has a great idea for a 3D Castlevania, but it's not MercurySteam and the more mediocre games they put out, the less likely it is that a really good 3D Castlevania will ever exist. Except this isn't going to happen. Mercurysteam is the only reason that Castlevania games are being made right now. I keep bringing up Mega Man because I think it is a good parallel to Castlevania. Its a franchise that has tried to get its feet off the ground for a while and they kept trying new things but never did and the sad thing is that the games weren't bad, it just isn't what people were looking for. Lords of Shadow was far from "terrible poo poo" but the fans are not enough because even when the metroidvanias were coming out the sales of the franchise was dwindling. I honestly didn't expect Lords of Shadow to be a success, I definitely didn't expect for it to be the best selling game in the franchise, but it is. blackguy32 fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Oct 21, 2013 |
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Oct 21, 2013 23:01
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I'm still not sure where the dwindling sales comes from.Endorph posted:Just make 1000 games where you play as Shanoa, in every possible genre. Are you making fun of me because that is unironically what I'd say. Shanoa. Seriously the glyph system was really cool and I was sad to find out it was new to OoE. Cuntellectual fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Oct 21, 2013 |
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Oct 21, 2013 23:05
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Anatharon posted:That actually makes me think. What would you (You in the general sense) do for Castlevania these days? Make a Lords of Shadow game with more than 1 actually useable combo. gently caress it, I like God of War / DMC, I can deal with clones as long as they're good clones.
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Oct 21, 2013 23:33
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From what Ive heard in rumors about LoS2 it will be closer to crazy DMC and im just fine with that  Also seconding support of Shanoa to appear in more things. While I like Dark Souls and Castlevania and the possibility of mixing the two, Im not quite comfortable with just turning everything into Dark Souls. I do think there is still a place for Cadtlevania I just dont know what it should be. Maybe if they made the graphics look just like the old official art or something for starters.
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Oct 22, 2013 03:10
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I'd like to point out that Castlevania:Harmony of Despair, is at best a mediocre game that forces people to go through sections over and over again to get good gear because of the lovely luck. It's first DLC, the pyramid level, was already created, cost about as much as the game itself, and the only character that got new sprites was Julius Belmont. ALSO I'd like to point out that in the release, Johnathan was the only whip character, and required Subweapon grinding to increase the power of the whip. The Valmanway (Crissagrim in SOTN) or Yasutsune, were just as highly coveted and broken as it's Symphony of the night versions, and with a LOT of grinding and luck, you could turn into an unstoppable blender with Soma, or Alucard, but mostly Soma because he had more tools. It was so bad that at least one DLC map added some sort of invincibility timer after a hit to prevent outright cheesing and murdering, which didn't matter because people figured out a way around it. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuSMzmMyGj4] All these things, and I still lapped that poo poo up like a dog, because goddamnit, I want some castlevania. I grinded all the subweapons for all belmonts, and got almost all of the good gear doing probably more in terms of time than I would do in a normal raid setting in World of Warcraft several times over. Fargin Icehole fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Oct 22, 2013 |
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Oct 22, 2013 05:00
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Fargin Icehole posted:I'd like to point out that Castlevania:Harmony of Despair, is at best a mediocre game that forces people to go through sections over and over again to get good gear because of the lovely luck. It's first DLC, the pyramid level, was already created, cost about as much as the game itself, and the only character that got new sprites was Julius Belmont. ALSO I'd like to point out that in the release, Johnathan was the only whip character, and required Subweapon grinding to increase the power of the whip. It's fun for a bit. Unless you're playing with actual friends, I thought single player was actually funner a lot of the time. Online games usually just ended up being a game of watching the dude with a Valmanway run to the end and beat the boss on his own.
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Oct 22, 2013 05:31
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Fargin Icehole posted:I'd like to point out that Castlevania:Harmony of Despair, is at best a mediocre game that forces people to go through sections over and over again to get good gear because of the lovely luck. It's first DLC, the pyramid level, was already created, cost about as much as the game itself, and the only character that got new sprites was Julius Belmont. ALSO I'd like to point out that in the release, Johnathan was the only whip character, and required Subweapon grinding to increase the power of the whip. I would die happy if there was a CVHD 2 that was improved, and maybe had more single player stuff. Shanoa getting Lapiste was kinda weird though.
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Oct 22, 2013 05:40
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Pneub posted:Make a Lords of Shadow game with more than 1 actually useable combo. gently caress it, I like God of War / DMC, I can deal with clones as long as they're good clones. The demo I saw had air dashes, so in theory air combos should finally be useful for more than committing suicide. Mobility in general looked much improved, which- along with news that they're laying off the QTEs and not having a fixed camera- makes me tentatively excited that combat will be much improved. It also looks like they did away with light/dark magic being in different pools that need to be charged separately, which I'm pretty ok with. I never hated the mechanic, but they didn't do anything too interesting with it in LoS & I'm always fine with paring away dead weight in any game that requires fleet fingers. Overall it looks like they fixed a lot of the stuff holding the first game back from being great, enough so that I'll pick it up when it hits PC, whenever that is.
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Oct 22, 2013 05:52
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Pneub posted:It's fun for a bit. Unless you're playing with actual friends, I thought single player was actually funner a lot of the time. Online games usually just ended up being a game of watching the dude with a Valmanway run to the end and beat the boss on his own. I remember the first Friday night when it came out I ended up staying home and playing for hours. The dungeons were fresh and everyone was a low enough level that we had to rely on each other. Me and a bunch of strangers banding together to tackle what would end up being the last traditional Castlevania. I wouldn't mind a Steam re-release. I miss the 2D games, although I didn't mind fighting the undead side-by-side with motherfucking Patrick Stewart. Anyone ever manage to play the Castlevania "lightgun" arcade game?
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Oct 22, 2013 06:20
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Social Animal posted:I remember the first Friday night when it came out I ended up staying home and playing for hours. The dungeons were fresh and everyone was a low enough level that we had to rely on each other. Me and a bunch of strangers banding together to tackle what would end up being the last traditional Castlevania. I wouldn't mind a Steam re-release. I think one of the things that rubbed me the wrong way about Lord of Shadows is that the continuty got rebooted. I dislike reboots in general but it feels like it's brushing aside all the old games. At least it's not as bad as that new DmC game.
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Oct 22, 2013 07:29
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Decided to have a go at Order of Ecclasia again. Whats that super good rune combo people were talking about?
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Oct 22, 2013 19:31
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Anatharon posted:That actually makes me think. What would you (You in the general sense) do for Castlevania these days? Castlevania made by Platinum Games 
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Oct 22, 2013 19:39
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Anatharon posted:Edit: I finally got to level 255 in OoE with Shanoa after a few years. They're awesome, there's Magician Mode where your stats are super low except for your magic and you start with every card, etc. I just wish they did animations for the other two characters since they fit the fighter/magician archtypes instead of using the regular player sprite.
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Oct 22, 2013 20:01
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Uncle Wemus posted:Decided to have a go at Order of Ecclasia again. Whats that super good rune combo people were talking about? Nitesco+any weapon glyph wrecks everything something fierce, but you won't get the former until the final area.
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Oct 22, 2013 20:42
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AnotherGamer posted:Nitesco+any weapon glyph wrecks everything something fierce, but you won't get the former until the final area. Earlier on the bow glyph union is really good for the main early stumbling point, Brachurya. He's the only boss I don't have a medal for yet.
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Oct 22, 2013 22:23
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Alright, thanks to this thread I'm going to play my first Castlevania since Aria of Sorrow since Lord of Shadows deluxe is $15 on Steam right now.
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Oct 25, 2013 02:53
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:Castlevania made by Platinum Games 10/10 would kickstarter again. Also, I know this is going to get me burned faster than Lisa Tepes in Alucard's nightmares, but I preferred Curse of Darkness over Lords of Shadow. There, I said it. Yes, it was gimmicky. Yes, the combat was clunky, and the summon system was basically Monster Rancher mixed with Persona, and not very well. But it had variety, a world that felt open, and some of the boss fights (Trevor especially) actually felt like boss fights instead of QTEs followed with mash events. CoD felt like they tried to take SotN's level of weapon choice and customization and put it to 3D, and though it had issues it was a fun, valiant attempt. LoS felt like it'd been placed on rails and spun through a blender of folklore references, and if I wanted that I'd go play Shadow Hearts. Curse of Darkness was the best 3D Castlevania game. You may start your judging. OoE is still awesome, though. Probably the best use of the 'metroidvania' formula since SotN started it.
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Oct 25, 2013 09:12
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Raising pets and stealing in Curse of Darkness were both really fun. The general combat and the environment/level design, though.  I hated how combat was so dodge heavy while at the same time every new skill level for your weapons was "extended combo" that you can never get off because of course you need to dodge before you can use the ten-hit finisher or whatever, so you just go through the game using the same two skills forever. Like, what's even the point. Just bust out 1-hit-->finisher over and over again, it'll rack up damage faster than the advanced finishers anyway. Bonaventure fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Oct 25, 2013 |
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Oct 25, 2013 17:20
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| # ? Jun 9, 2024 18:29 |
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It's useful to remember that Lords of Shadow had a somewhat troubled development. Konami could not decide if they wanted it to be a Castlevania game or not, and they flipped positions on the matter several times during the course of development. That's why the game's plot and setting are closer to general gothic than specifically Castlevania, and why the game doesn't have any memorable music from earlier in the series. I'm quite interested in LOS2. They know what they're working with now, and everything I've heard about the gameplay makes it sound like a big improvement. Here's hoping.
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Oct 25, 2013 18:30
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